BC NDP to launch inquiry into pilot universal basic income

[welfare]

Originally Posted by iwantaskyline

The U stands for Universal...so yes everyone.

Because everyone wants more money. I don't know about you (your name is welfare after all) but I would definitely continue working even if I received 30k in UBI yearly because that is definitely not enough to support my lifestyle or any lower mainland lifestyle really.

There are about 4,700,000 people in bc. Let's be modest and assume 2,000,000 adults...
That's $60,000,000,000 annually

[68style]

I think there’s a much bigger picture here, it’s a step toward a bigger idea.... with many steps left, but a step nonetheless... and no I’m not sure it’s the “right” thing to do, but I also just came back from Texas where I saw a guy who was obviously broke (based on things he said to his friend) wearing a t-shirt that said “No excuses, work harder” from Under Armor no less... and he was very happy to, even though he has fuck all himself, make sure anyone who has even less than fuck all stays that way because they didn’t work as hard as him (??) and he has every measure of that accounted for I suppose as well? People in this system we have built where everyone is “competing” with each other love to put each other down and trash people. We are pitted against each other instead of working together and sharing.

Anyway, I think UBI is a small form of the grand idea of why are we even working anyway? Who controls the systems we live in? There’s more tha enough food and materials on the planet for everyone... so why do we all as a group suffer while a few control everything using the system of money and rank? I know what I’m saying sounds like communism but it doesn’t have to be... I think eventually there’s a possibility of people just being allowed to live as they want not how society tells them they must? I’d like to think there’s more to life as a human being than plugging into a standardized ideal at some point of advancement for us.

[iwantaskyline]

Originally Posted by welfare

There are about 4,700,000 people in bc. Let's be modest and assume 2,000,000 adults...
That's $60,000,000,000 annually

It would be adults only, 18+ most likely. The poverty line in Canada is roughly $20,000 - so that is what UBI would roughly equal.

Many current government social programs would be consolidated into UBI; welfare, child tax credits, employment insurance, pension etc.

Income taxes would likely be higher but I am no expert on the topic (UBI would not be taxable).

[hchang]

Originally Posted by SkinnyPupp

Somehow people have a problem with preventing their fellow citizens from living at (or below) poverty, despite being in a wealthy, healthy nation

The numbers are strongly skewed because Canada is a growing Country dependent on immigration.

On paper a lot of new immigrants live at poverty or lower because of families reporting none to low household income in Canada, while theyve got source(s) of income coming from other Countries.

And then there's the immigrants who are not here to adapt and become productive members of our society, who are only here for better quality of life that will bring down stats even more because theyve never earnt a cent for themselves because they've got a steady stream of mommy and daddy money coming in.

[welfare]

Originally Posted by 68style

I think there’s a much bigger picture here, it’s a step toward a bigger idea.... with many steps left, but a step nonetheless... and no I’m not sure it’s the “right” thing to do, but I also just came back from Texas where I saw a guy who was obviously broke (based on things he said to his friend) wearing a t-shirt that said “No excuses, work harder” from Under Armor no less... and he was very happy to, even though he has fuck all himself, make sure anyone who has even less than fuck all stays that way because they didn’t work as hard as him (??) and he has every measure of that accounted for I suppose as well? People in this system we have built where everyone is “competing” with each other love to put each other down and trash people. We are pitted against each other instead of working together and sharing.

Anyway, I think UBI is a small form of the grand idea of why are we even working anyway? Who controls the systems we live in? There’s more tha enough food and materials on the planet for everyone... so why do we all as a group suffer while a few control everything using the system of money and rank? I know what I’m saying sounds like communism but it doesn’t have to be... I think eventually there’s a possibility of people just being allowed to live as they want not how society tells them they must? I’d like to think there’s more to life as a human being than plugging into a standardized ideal at some point of advancement for us.

That's literally the definition of communism.

Originally Posted by iwantaskyline

It would be adults only, 18+ most likely. The poverty line in Canada is roughly $20,000 - so that is what UBI would roughly equal.

Many current government social programs would be consolidated into UBI; welfare, child tax credits, employment insurance, pension etc.

Income taxes would likely be higher but I am no expert on the topic (UBI would not be taxable).

The amount of income tax increase required would send high income earners fleeing. While those wanting that sweet free cash would probably come pouring into the province.

[SkinnyPupp]

Originally Posted by welfare

Ok so why not focus on the cause rather than the symptom?

Handing people money is not a solution to the reason they don't have it in the first place.

Yeah that's working great

"Just look at all these jobs. why don't you pick yourself up by the bootstraps like my grandpa did and get to work! Look at the life I'm able to enjoy thanks to my parents, I don't see why you can't do the same!"

[SkinnyPupp]

Originally Posted by hchang

The numbers are strongly skewed because Canada is a growing Country dependent on immigration.

On paper a lot of new immigrants live at poverty or lower because of families reporting none to low household income in Canada, while theyve got source(s) of income coming from other Countries.

And then there's the immigrants who are not here to adapt and become productive members of our society, who are only here for better quality of life that will bring down stats even more because theyve never earnt a cent for themselves because they've got a steady stream of mommy and daddy money coming in.

Most "wealthy" nations have the exact same problem, with varying degrees of immigration.

And it's only going to get worse with more automation

[iwantaskyline]

Originally Posted by welfare

The amount of income tax increase required would send high income earners fleeing. While those wanting that sweet free cash would probably come pouring into the province.

As previously stated:

Many current government social programs would be consolidated into UBI; welfare, child tax credits, employment insurance, pension etc.

The income tax increase for many in the middle class would most likely be offset by UBI - for example maybe you're paying $4000 extra a year in taxes but you're receiving $20,000 more a year through UBI. It's only the ultra rich that would receive a significant dent in taxes but these people already do many things to avoid taxes like parking their money off-shore so what does it really it matter to most of them.

And where would these people flee to? I don't see record amounts of people leaving the lower mainland even though there's a housing crisis.

There would obviously be conditions if it's only on a provincial level, you won't be able to move to BC and immediately receive UBI...

[welfare]

Originally Posted by SkinnyPupp

Yeah that's working great

"Just look at all these jobs. why don't you pick yourself up by the bootstraps like my grandpa did and get to work! Look at the life I'm able to enjoy thanks to my parents, I don't see why you can't do the same!"

I was referring to focusing on mental health support. Rather than handing over free money.
The huge cost of UBI could be spent much more efficiently.
It just seems extremely irresponsible to me.

Originally Posted by iwantaskyline

As previously stated:

Many current government social programs would be consolidated into UBI; welfare, child tax credits, employment insurance, pension etc.

The income tax increase for many in the middle class would most likely be offset by UBI - for example maybe you're paying $4000 extra a year in taxes but you're receiving $20,000 more a year through UBI. It's only the ultra rich that would receive a significant dent in taxes but these people already do many things to avoid taxes like parking their money off-shore so what does it really it matter to most of them.

And where would these people flee to? I don't see record amounts of people leaving the lower mainland even though there's a housing crisis.

There would obviously be conditions if it's only on a provincial level, you won't be able to move to BC and immediately receive UBI...

Finland's trial period ended when it was estimated that taxes would need to be increased by 30%. That's with consolidation of their many social programs.
Crunch some numbers. Then tell me how realistic/sustainable the idea seems

[iwantaskyline]

Originally Posted by welfare

Finland's trial period ended when it was estimated that taxes would need to be increased by 30%. That's with consolidation of their many social programs.
Crunch some numbers. Then tell me how realistic/sustainable the idea seems

That trial was flawed. It only had unemployed participants - all test results are inconclusive.

Taxation did not change for these people. The whole point of UBI is that it should be coupled with a reform of the tax-brackets, as the UBI is essentially a negative tax-bracket.

[iwantaskyline]

Originally Posted by welfare

I was referring to focusing on mental health support. Rather than handing over free money.
The huge cost of UBI could be spent much more efficiently.
It just seems extremely irresponsible to me.

What's a major contributing factor to mental health issues in today's society?

Financial stability.

[Bouncing Bettys]

Originally Posted by welfare

Finland's trial period ended when it was estimated that taxes would need to be increased by 30%. That's with consolidation of their many social programs.
Crunch some numbers. Then tell me how realistic/sustainable the idea seems

I would imagine the trial period ended for no other reason than it is the definition of a trial period.

[68style]

Originally Posted by welfare

That's literally the definition of communism.

It doesn't have to be implemented the way the Soviets did it, which is why everyone reviles the idea so much ie: there's 1 car available and it's a Lada and it sucks and the government owns all the land and controls everything you do, but the idea could be empowering if people were of a heightened sense of mind and not so frickin greedy or self-serving... anyway it will never happen given the current mindsets in the world... but man I'd be all over just exploring the world and not having to be someone's slave in an office every day. It's literally a pointless existence the way we have set things up in this capitalist structure, unless anyone here really truly feels life value from achieving the purchase of a brand new M4 or finally being able to get a mortgage from a bank on a townhouse............ that's for some people I guess, but never has been for me. I adapted to this world despite my ideals changing with age and am doing just fine, but it's kind of sad that everyone's lives are literally on repeat every day.

[CivicBlues]

^I think you meant Lada, not Tata. Don't think the Soviets used cars made in India.

Agree with everything else you say. "Hey, I'm going to work hard to earn more so I can qualify to borrow more from a bank."

[whitev70r]

My fear is that many would not know how to use their $1000/mth (or whatever the amount is). Does UBI come with mandatory financial literacy 101?

[68style]

^ That's true of almost everyone, rich or poor.

Is there any insinuation that poor people have poor money management skills by default? That may be true, but I think out of necessity they're a hell of a lot better at it that most rich people I know and famous people I don't know (but get to see their activities thanks to social media) and nobody wastes more money every day than wealthy or well-off people. And when I say waste, I mean like... WASTE waste... not "You spent $200 on latte's this month that needs to stop!" we're talking bathing in Perrier water and putting $5-mill worth of diamonds on the dog's collar wasting. Who needs a LV bag at the airport? They're ugly and they suck ass as a piece of luggage. Every time I fly somewhere I see them though!

Besides, we already have a microcosm of this available for study, look at the oilfields? 9/10 of those guys barely graduated high school and blow their massive salaries up their nose or on hookers... the other 1/10 are smarter, but they still do things like buy and re-buy Porsche GT3's ( love you Jason) so you already know what will happen if you just give people large quantities of cash when they've got little or no financial management skills... I would imagine it would be a smaller version of the same.

[iwantaskyline]

Originally Posted by whitev70r

My fear is that many would not know how to use their $1000/mth (or whatever the amount is). Does UBI come with mandatory financial literacy 101?

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/glob...ticle34670871/

A newly announced Ontario government program aims to do just that – soon making financial literacy education a reality for high-school students. The mandatory Grade 10 career studies course will be composed of four modules: financial literacy, entrepreneurship skills, digital literacy and career/life planning.

[CivicBlues]

Originally Posted by whitev70r

My fear is that many would not know how to use their $1000/mth (or whatever the amount is). Does UBI come with mandatory financial literacy 101?

In our current consumerist system it's in the best interest to keep as many people as possible financially illiterate. How many times have you heard people advocate that a "Financial Literacy 101" course be offered in public schools? Has that become a reality? It would be an easiest fucking thing to implement as well - any bozo not behind on CC payments could teach it.

Probably because our whole economy depends on people spending their money on stupid shit. If everyone had basic finance and budgeting under their belts, Starbucks would go out of business overnight. Luxury car dealerships? *poof*

edit: just saw the post above me. Good for Ontario! Too bad they have bigger fish to fry now with dealing with Doug Ford.

[Adorkami]

I'm curious if implementing a UBI would result in more xenophobia as I'm sure it would encourage more people to immigrate here leading to people complaining about supporting others.

[whitev70r]

Originally Posted by 68style

^ That's true of almost everyone, rich or poor.

Of course, that goes without saying but the rich can blow it the way they want cuz mommy and daddy gave it to them or they earned it. Don't you think it is more important if individuals are given an UBI from tax payer's money??

[68style]

^ What does it matter if that’s all they get though? The taxpayer loses that money no matter what... At least if they blow it, the money goes back into the economy lol

[welfare]

Originally Posted by iwantaskyline

That trial was flawed. It only had unemployed participants - all test results are inconclusive.

Taxation did not change for these people. The whole point of UBI is that it should be coupled with a reform of the tax-brackets, as the UBI is essentially a negative tax-bracket.

the oecd also reported that poverty would actually increase, as well as the wage gap.

Originally Posted by iwantaskyline

What's a major contributing factor to mental health issues in today's society?

Financial stability.

i would argue it's the other way around.

Originally Posted by Bouncing Bettys

I would imagine the trial period ended for no other reason than it is the definition of a trial period.

true. i should have said "would not be extended".

Originally Posted by 68style

It doesn't have to be implemented the way the Soviets did it, which is why everyone reviles the idea so much ie: there's 1 car available and it's a Lada and it sucks and the government owns all the land and controls everything you do, but the idea could be empowering if people were of a heightened sense of mind and not so frickin greedy or self-serving... anyway it will never happen given the current mindsets in the world... but man I'd be all over just exploring the world and not having to be someone's slave in an office every day. It's literally a pointless existence the way we have set things up in this capitalist structure, unless anyone here really truly feels life value from achieving the purchase of a brand new M4 or finally being able to get a mortgage from a bank on a townhouse............ that's for some people I guess, but never has been for me. I adapted to this world despite my ideals changing with age and am doing just fine, but it's kind of sad that everyone's lives are literally on repeat every day.

you're doing fairly well, i assume. better than many others. you have the ability to give much more than i imagine you do. you can choose how much you want to help. that's freedom.
the system we have doesn't work for everyone. nothing ever will. but it's the freest fairest system available.

[68style]

I can be a bit nimby just like anyone else, I see other countries with not enough food maybe I could do more about it but why just me? I have enough for me, but not much of a surplus like most other people living in Van... but the people with the most do almost nothing at all except continue to collect it.

I get more upset about the extremes... like sports teams... the owners are one thing, however they got their money good or bad every one of them has a different story I'm sure... I can understand the players deserve to be compensated because they are the product and the owners make lots of money off them... when you see players getting $60 million dollars a year to throw a ball through a hoop, which contributes absolutely nothing to society nor does it further the human race in any way at all, that's where capitalism has failed. Yet, the same people celebrating those signings will shit on doctors and teachers and nurses whenever their contracts come up for renewal and say they shouldn't get more money? Capitalism in its current form is rewarding people based on the wrong factors/talents/levels of work. We have entire generations now of Youtube people and Kardashians and Hiltons that are literally made rich for doing nothing because they are working a rigged system despite the fact they are contributing less than nothing back to the world around them. Sad.

[welfare]

You're blaming capitalism for the actions of the market. If no one wanted it, they wouldn't get paid. That sounds completely fair to me. Blame the market, not the system.

The idea that capitalism equals greed seems erroneous to me.
People provide a service and in return are compensated for that service (based on market value hopefully). That premise doesn't sound greedy at all.
Being compensated for doing nothing? That sounds greedy

[SkinnyPupp]

Originally Posted by welfare

You're blaming capitalism for the actions of the market. If no one wanted it, they wouldn't get paid. That sounds completely fair to me. Blame the market, not the system.

The idea that capitalism equals greed seems erroneous to me.
People provide a service and in return are compensated for that service (based on market value hopefully). That premise doesn't sound greedy at all.
Being compensated for doing nothing? That sounds greedy

Are you being a capitalist caricature on purpose? Sometimes I don't even know with you.

Some of your posts are so absurd, it's hard to tell if you're being sarcastic or just extremely naively idealistic.