Birthright citizenship

[hud 91gt]

I thought she was just trying to re-fill her knockoff Canada Goose Jacket with more “down”

[Nlkko]

Originally Posted by Hehe

Stat-wise, don't take my words for it. Google Birth Tourism Canada, in the news tab, every major news outlet has stats from a lot of years released by Statistic Canada or other official sources. I did my work when I posted. If you are too lazy to even Google, I got nothing for you. Can't argue with people who simply refuse to accept anything other than their own idea. (Trump much? )

I am an immigrant myself and I know first hand what it's like being an immigrant. Do I get mad because these babies had it too easy comparing to what I had to go through? (study, find a good job, fit the immigration criteria... etc)? Maybe a little bit... but as a current Canadian citizen, I have no more or less feeling about these anchor babies than refugees. I don't agree with what they are doing (either breaking or exploiting the law), but that's about it. If they did it and got CDN citizenship... welcome fellow CDN!

They share a similar wish, looking to have a better opportunity in the future and they (or their parents) are willing to take their risks with legal problems and authorities. For that, I respect them... at least for their courage.

Both side of the borders, people who seem to oppose anchor babies the most seem to be those who are conservatives+born/bred locally.

If you are one of those, let me ask you one thing... are you part of any native/aboriginal group? If not... I can pretty much say to you, STFU!

Your family was an immigrant one point in time. They did what they had to do to give better opportunities to their offsprings. They also took the risk... probably went through some holes they don't talk about even in the family. So, stop this "I'm better than these people because I'm a true Canadian" attitude. You know nothing about the COST of being a Canadian. You were lucky enough to be born with it. That's all... as far as a Canadian goes, you are no better than me, the anchor babies or the millions of Canucks out there.

As for them taking our medical resources... again, get some stats and come back to me. It's less than 1% of all babies born in Canada... if our system can't even handle 1% over-capacity... I think we have a different problem here.

In short, I don't agree with people breaking the law or exploit legal loopholes. HOWEVER, before they even spend a dime of taxes I paid working on a constitutional amendment to change this, they need to convince me that this actually IS a problem. Otherwise, I think the tax money I contributed to the Canadian society can be better spent and we have problems that have way higher priority than this one.

100% in agreement.

It's the "I got mine, fuck you" mentality. American/Canadian-born Irish, Asian (Chinese, Vietnamese, Filipinos, etc.), Italians, Germans, Eastern Europeans. All of these were actually depicted as rats, donkeys or other pests at some point over the past 100 years so it's not even that far back. But they are Americans/ Canadians now and everybody else is second-class. It's sad.

Blame the shortcomings on minorities, marginalized people because they aint fighting back.

[Hondaracer]

coming here to get a birth certificate isnt the same as moving your family over and being a contriuting member of society.

[68style]

Yah the people we're talking about are using Canada as a clean air resort to come to during the summer since it has most of the comforts of home and funneling all their money away from the PRC government to here and "investing" it (ie: buying up all the available housing over the years) and using vast amounts of services without contributing anything of significance. I used to work at CRA, I saw it constantly... you think it's a small problem? How many million dollar "small problems" does it take before you're upset about people using (and crowding!) the system you work in? My sister works in Richmond hospital and it's a fucking disaster in there every day since all this shit started. Resources are maxed out, constant issues with people not being able to communicate or showing up with medicine bottles from China that nobody can read. No room for anyone on the infant ward and all the nice rooms get bought up by these people plopping a baby for citizenship and then leaving a week later back to China.

It's pretty rampant... my apartment building for example? As soon as late fall comes around... ie: 2 weeks ago... the parkade is comprised of at least half the stalls having luxury vehicles with no license plates and storage insurance in the window... parked for the winter while they're back in Asia. Come April, they'll all be back here with booster cables bumping dead batteries and wondering why the air suspension on their A8 or G class failed. Meanwhile, they weren't around for fire alarm testing or any other building initiatives... pipes burst and cause leaks... nobody to move their cars when the parkade gets power washed... just headache after headache for everyone that lives here with NO benefit to anyone who really lives here.

These people are NOT responsible and contributing citizens to Canada. They are NOT families moving here looking for a "better life" in a better country. They're just here to take as much as they can and give up as little as possible.

[Traum]

It is people with exactly your kind of mindset that is the problem. You know you do not agree with it, and yet you continue to turn a blind eye to it.

Here are 3 articles that contains some of the exact stats that you were looking for. So who is too lazy to even Google here?? And after you googled, did you look deeper into the meaning of the stats that was presented, in terms of what implications it carries, and what is tells and does not tell?

https://www.richmond-news.com/news/b...ada-1.23352836

Whereas Richmond Hospital reported 299 “self-pay” births from non-resident mothers in the 2015-16 fiscal year and 379 in the 2016-2017 fiscal year, Statistics Canada only reported 99 births in B.C. in 2016 where the “Place of residence of [the] mother [is] outside Canada.”

https://www.richmond-news.com/news/b...ill-1.23333820

According to Vancouver Coastal Health, in the 2016-2017 fiscal year, there were 379 births to foreign nationals at Richmond Hospital. That’s close to one in five moms (17.4 per cent) entering the maternity ward that are not Canadian residents.

However in the first half of 2017-2018 (to September 2017) foreign nationals accounted for 19.9 per cent of all births in Richmond. The News has asked VCH for the final 2017-2018 figures.

In 2015-2016 there were 299 births and in 2014-2015 there were 335. From 2004 to 2010 the hospital helped birth, on average, 18 new Canadians per year from non-resident mothers. Nationality isn’t routinely tracked but a tabulation by hospital officials in 2016 showed Chinese nationals accounting for 98 per cent of such births.

https://www.scmp.com/news/world/unit...hole-grey-area

Canada’s immigration authorities are well aware of the phenomenon of birth tourism, which has led to more than two dozen private “baby houses” being set up in British Columbia’s lower mainland to accommodate pregnant mainland Chinese travellers. Infants with non-resident mothers made up 22.1 per cent (474 babies) out of all newborns in the 2017/2018 financial year at Richmond Hospital, where the practice is soaring.

Esp from the first Richmond News article, a particularly important point to notice is how many of these tourist births are under-reported. Does 22% of all newborns being anchor babies seem low to you? I think it is ridiculously high. On top of that, some of the foreign mothers engage in this birth-and-dash practice, and Richmond General was owed a $300k+ neonatal bill that has now ballooned into ~$1.2M after accumulating 67 months' worth of interest.

If you are not aware of the fact that our provincial and national healthcare system is already under tremendous pressure, you are extremely uninformed and naive, to put it mildly.

Originally Posted by Hehe

Stat-wise, don't take my words for it. Google Birth Tourism Canada, in the news tab, every major news outlet has stats from a lot of years released by Statistic Canada or other official sources. I did my work when I posted. If you are too lazy to even Google, I got nothing for you. Can't argue with people who simply refuse to accept anything other than their own idea. (Trump much? )

...

I don't agree with what they are doing (either breaking or exploiting the law), but that's about it. If they did it and got CDN citizenship... welcome fellow CDN!

They share a similar wish, looking to have a better opportunity in the future and they (or their parents) are willing to take their risks with legal problems and authorities. For that, I respect them... at least for their courage.

As for them taking our medical resources... again, get some stats and come back to me. It's less than 1% of all babies born in Canada... if our system can't even handle 1% over-capacity... I think we have a different problem here.

If, by your standards, it is OK to turn a blind eye to someone (or some parent) simply because they share a wish to have better opportunities for their kids, that you respect them for taking the risks with legal problems and authorities -- then I'm gonna ask you: If I were to engage in a heist because I want to leave my kids with a better financial legacy, it is risky and legally problematic too. Are you going to respect me for that as well?

This is not a matter of "I got here first, so fxxk the rest of you". This is a matter of fairness, a matter of following the proper protocol and procedure. This is a matter of being able to accommodate an extra 22% of regular Canadian patients when our resources are already stretched thin. This is a matter of us being in Canada here where there are rules and procedures to follow, not god-awful lawless China where you can do whatever dafuq you want as long as you have money and/or political connections. We are also no longer in the 1800's where we can do whatever dafuq we want simply because we have bigger guns than their bows and arrows. It is almost 2019, and I expect people and society to have more civility than those savages in the 1800's, or the lawlessness in China.

[Hehe]

I didn't say it's not a problem and that we should turn a blind eye on it.

What I'm saying is that between the amount of resources we'd have to spend to amend our constitution or bill of rights for whatever "new law" they are looking to introduce to survive a constitutional challenge at Supreme Court of Canada, first we'd have to see if this is a problem at all.

Our PM is out there saying our generosity toward refugees is the way Canadian is... and I'm arguing how is anchor babies different?

We are talking about people who have no status at all in Canada. They fly into Canada as a tourist, give birth and leave.

This is NOT the same group of people who come to Canada and take advantage of our tax systems.

I know neighbors who claim to have little to no income and yet live in a house worth 2M+. They are "entitled" to get whatever benefits we provide by law because guess what? They immigrated here LEGALLY!

Please stop merging these two groups together. As a tourist, you are entitled to ZERO federal/provincial benefits. The people you are saying who are taking all sort of benefits while paying 0 taxes are legal immigrants. If they have kids here, these kids aren't anchor babies.

[Hondaracer]

They arent leaving.. why the hell would you come here and get a birth cert and then go back to squallor in China? obviously the mothers and families who come here and give birth are leveraging their child's birth certificate for Canadian residency or else why would you bother coming here? To send your child back on their own?

[Manic!]

Originally Posted by Hondaracer

They arent leaving.. why the hell would you come here and get a birth cert and then go back to squallor in China? obviously the mothers and families who come here and give birth are leveraging their child's birth certificate for Canadian residency or else why would you bother coming here? To send your child back on their own?

Squallor? Lol.

[Hehe]

Originally Posted by Hondaracer

They arent leaving.. why the hell would you come here and get a birth cert and then go back to squallor in China? obviously the mothers and families who come here and give birth are leveraging their child's birth certificate for Canadian residency or else why would you bother coming here? To send your child back on their own?

How are they supposed to stay here without some sort of visa?

The tourist visa gets them 180days. Past that, they are here illegally. If you are referring to the Chinese group specifically, I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but they are not those who stay. They have their entire career and economy tied to China. They are just here to get citizenship for their kids.

If they do apply for some sort of study/work permit to stay here, then... they pay taxes and contribute to the CDN society same as everyone else.

We here, fortunately, don't get nearly as much as US as far as illegal immigrants from Mexico or Latin America are concerned.

And the "ANCHOR BABIES" we are discussing here specifically... those who come to Canada, stay in one of those "birth houses" in Richmond... they leave after giving birth. At least the majority of them.

If we want to start talking illegal immigrants, that's whole other topic altogether.

Most of the stories I read about anchor babies are those families who has some money to make their trip here, but they don't stay here as there's nothing for them to do. Their "Canadian" kid won't be able to sponsor them for residency until they turn 19.

Let's stop merging different problem into one. Baby tourism is one thing, illegal immigrants is another. Heck, as far as our laws are concerned, giving birth in Canada is still legal last time I checked. Grey area? yes... but not illegal.

And again, as I said, baby tourism is not exactly a problem in my mind. At least not serious enough to go through the entire trouble for a constitutional amendment given our situation of declining population.

All that resources (money to spend on studies, convincing all or enough MPs to amend the constitution... etc) can be used for other ACTUAL problems we are facing currently with much higher priority as they have a more immediate impact on our society. At least to more than the 1% of babies that I can see here with baby tourism.

[Hehe]

Originally Posted by Traum

It is people with exactly your kind of mindset that is the problem. You know you do not agree with it, and yet you continue to turn a blind eye to it.

I understand there's a problem. But serious enough for a constitutional amendment?!

Constitutional amendment is a huge thing. It brings consequences to our lives as it's the highest of all laws and NOTHING is above it.

Say we spend all the resources and amend our constitution to get rid of jus soli (the very concept that birth tourism relies on), can you ensure that there's NO consequence at all for all the Canadians?

We have had problem with "lost Canadians" because we fucked up our nationality laws and Canada as a whole had to go through a lot of trouble to fix it. Imagine that on a constitutional level.

I think it's a problem that requires a constitutional amendment/reform when it affects enough Canadians.

But as far as the stat is concerned... it's less than 1% of babies born in Canada and not sure how they affect our ways of life while they are in China or wherever their parents are in.

I'm all for solving a problem. But before we want to solve a problem, we need to understand the severity and consequences of the problem. Else, it's a waste of resources that we don't have much in the first place.

This is a problem that the only solution is a constitutional amendment. Is it really severe enough to go down this path? I'm not seeing it. So I oppose it.

[Traum]

Originally Posted by Hehe

And again, as I said, baby tourism is not exactly a problem in my mind. At least not serious enough to go through the entire trouble for a constitutional amendment given our situation of declining population.

All that resources (money to spend on studies, convincing all or enough MPs to amend the constitution... etc) can be used for other ACTUAL problems we are facing currently with much higher priority as they have a more immediate impact on our society. At least to more than the 1% of babies that I can see here with baby tourism.

I disagree with the suggestion that it is not a serious enough problem to address. If you look at the wholl Canada, 300 - 400 extra births a year doesn't even register as an issue at all. But when it is all accumulating in a single municipality, the strain is there and very much affecting people. I personally know of a Richmond couple where they were scheduled to have the wife give brith at Richmond General, and yet when they went, the delivery ward was full, and they were diverted to St. Paul. That was a result of the 20%+ non-resident mother displacing a local resident.

If we have the extra capacity to provide them with high quality medical care, I wouldn't mind the government allowing and turning that into a profitable business. But the fact is our medical resources are already stretched thin, and given the limited resources, I think they should serve Canadians / PR before serving foreigners.

Democracy is a horribly inefficient and time consuming entity, but if history has taught us anything, it is also the only system that is viable and sustainable in the long term. Any of the "actual problems" that you refer to will also be hugely $$$ and resource intensive. Does that mean we shouldn't do them either?

[Hehe]

Originally Posted by Traum

I think they should serve Canadians / PR before serving foreigners.

This is against the very principle that we set for our health system (including hospitals, MDs... etc).

We do not discriminate people... whether they have status here or not, or whether they have money or not.

The healthcare system provide the care needed first and then ask for questions.

It's a slippery slope down if you want to start following this path.

IMO, if Richmond General needs the extra resource on their neonatal unit, then give it to them. The root of this problem is that we don't allocate enough resource where is needed. A constitutional amendment to jus soli will not fix this. Discriminating patient's status is neither an option IMHO as it can create unwanted consequences.

I'm not suggesting that we alter our system to accommodate anchor babies... but think about it... it's NOT just a problem with neonatal units. We have problems with our healthcare as a whole. Otherwise we wouldn't have Canadians as health tourists down south to the US. We often laugh at Americans that they don't have enough coverage... but the truth is, at least they have resources to spare.

If we are able to better allocate our resources more efficiently with technology and/or reforms, we can make it better not just for catering foreigners, but for Canadians as well.

[Mr.HappySilp]

Simple solution don't release any birth certs or better yet keep the baby in the hospital till the parents pay up all the fees. And by any chance if they to happen make it out of the hospital add the bill to the child once the baby reach adult hood he is require to pay back every penny plus interest. Make it like student loan where as long as you don't pay it stay with you, or better yet report to the credit bureau/credit rating agency. Report to ICBC as well so you can't even get a driver liscense or BC ID till you pay up.

[Manic!]

Originally Posted by Mr.HappySilp

Simple solution don't release any birth certs or better yet keep the baby in the hospital till the parents pay up all the fees. And by any chance if they to happen make it out of the hospital add the bill to the child once the baby reach adult hood he is require to pay back every penny plus interest. Make it like student loan where as long as you don't pay it stay with you, or better yet report to the credit bureau/credit rating agency. Report to ICBC as well so you can't even get a driver liscense or BC ID till you pay up.

Realy hold the babies hostage until the parents pay up. Maybe hospitals can have little cadges to put the babies in so parents don't steal them.

[Traum]

Originally Posted by Hehe

This is against the very principle that we set for our health system (including hospitals, MDs... etc).

We do not discriminate people... whether they have status here or not, or whether they have money or not.

The healthcare system provide the care needed first and then ask for questions.

It's a slippery slope down if you want to start following this path.

I am not suggesting we go down the slippery slow in discriminating who our hospitals provide medical services to. That is absolutely not acceptable from a humanitarian ground. From an earlier post I have made in the same thread, I said:

Originally Posted by Traum

IMO, since birth tourism has become a problem, the tourist mothers who have clearly planned to do this -- say, any expectant mother whose baby is more than 28 weeks into pregnancy -- should totally have been charging a 3x - 10x the cost of the treatments as a penalty and deterrent on these birth tourism cases to deter them from coming. It also doesn't hurt to make some profit on these cases.

What I am saying is, birth tourism is entirely an intentional and well-planned affair. To curb the problem, Canada should actively discourage, but not legally prohibit, expectant foreign mothers beyond a certain time in the trimester to come to Canada for whatever reason. I used 28 weeks in the above example because I personally think that by the time the pregnancy hits the roughly 28 weeks mark (ie. the 3rd trimester), the expectant mother would be better served to stay closer to home and prepare for the baby's arrival. But a more medically appropriate date should be used based on the likelihood of how soon babies are born.

The thing is, we want to discourage the practice of birth tourism. Constitutional amendment is one possible solution -- and the single most effective one -- that will end the problem at its roots. But there are other viable, if somewhat less effective, solutions that can work as well. IMO, an expensive medical bill can also serve as an effective disincentive to discourage birth tourism.

This is not at all discrimination of any kind. These foreign expectant mothers have a conscious decision in front of them to make -- if they still want to do a tourism birth, it is going to cost them (financially). It is not at all about being humanitarian or not. If they still choose to come, of course our medical personel would have to provide the usual level of medical care to ensure the best delivery possible. But it is going to cost them financially.

Don't want / can't afford the financial risk or burden? Then don't come to Canada for travels when you are beyond a certain time frame in your pregnancy. Nobody is forcing the expectant mother to act one way or another. The choice is still entirely hers (and probably her husband's).

There are a lot of smart people in the world, and a gob ton of them are much smarter than I am, so I'm sure they can come up with better policies / suggestions than I did here on how we can discourage / eliminate birth tourism.

Medical resources take a lot of time and money to build up. New doctors need a minimum of 8 - 10 years to train up. Nurses nowadays need ~5 yrs, I think? And then there are practical details such as hospital spaces, salaries, etc. Every resource is limited, and we can't just wave a magic wand and have our wishes granted right away.

[iwantaskyline]

There's obviously a misconception here that the people doing this are poor - that is not the case at all.

These are wealthy mainlanders who want their kids to have Canadian citizenship as a back up.

The visa screening for these people could probably be more strict but my honest guess is the government is turning a blind eye because the government wants wealthy immigrants.

[iwantaskyline]

Originally Posted by Mr.HappySilp

Simple solution don't release any birth certs or better yet keep the baby in the hospital till the parents pay up all the fees. And by any chance if they to happen make it out of the hospital add the bill to the child once the baby reach adult hood he is require to pay back every penny plus interest. Make it like student loan where as long as you don't pay it stay with you, or better yet report to the credit bureau/credit rating agency. Report to ICBC as well so you can't even get a driver liscense or BC ID till you pay up.

I see that you've taken a liking to the new marijuana legalization laws.

[MG1]

I'm all for supporting a healthcare system for everybody, but when push comes to shove, our citizens' needs come first.

I pay taxes like every law abiding citizen. Why should I have to pay for those who take advantage of our system. We don't have endless resources. Gawd, we are so stupid to allow this to take place.

[DoughBoy]

Turban

[Manic!]

Originally Posted by MG1

I'm all for supporting a healthcare system for everybody, but when push comes to shove, our citizens' needs come first.

I pay taxes like every law abiding citizen. Why should I have to pay for those who take advantage of our system. We don't have endless resources. Gawd, we are so stupid to allow this to take place.

We did have enough resources to forgive the billion dollar loan we gave Chrysler/Fiat.

[MG1]

https://www.canada.ca/en/health-cana...em/canada.html

[FerrariEnzo]

Originally Posted by Mr.HappySilp

keep the baby in the hospital till the parents pay up all the fees.

Isnt that illegal.. lol

[welfare]

Originally Posted by Manic!

We did have enough resources to forgive the billion dollar loan we gave Chrysler/Fiat.

If only there were a candidate for PM campaigning to end corporate welfare

Maxime Bernier 2019

[Manic!]

Originally Posted by welfare

If only there were a candidate for PM campaigning to end corporate welfare

Maxime Bernier 2019

Wasn't he part of the government that gave Chrysler in the first place? Also my mistake it's 2.6 billion.

[Mr.HappySilp]

Originally Posted by Traum

I am not suggesting we go down the slippery slow in discriminating who our hospitals provide medical services to. That is absolutely not acceptable from a humanitarian ground. From an earlier post I have made in the same thread, I said:


What I am saying is, birth tourism is entirely an intentional and well-planned affair. To curb the problem, Canada should actively discourage, but not legally prohibit, expectant foreign mothers beyond a certain time in the trimester to come to Canada for whatever reason. I used 28 weeks in the above example because I personally think that by the time the pregnancy hits the roughly 28 weeks mark (ie. the 3rd trimester), the expectant mother would be better served to stay closer to home and prepare for the baby's arrival. But a more medically appropriate date should be used based on the likelihood of how soon babies are born.

The thing is, we want to discourage the practice of birth tourism. Constitutional amendment is one possible solution -- and the single most effective one -- that will end the problem at its roots. But there are other viable, if somewhat less effective, solutions that can work as well. IMO, an expensive medical bill can also serve as an effective disincentive to discourage birth tourism.

This is not at all discrimination of any kind. These foreign expectant mothers have a conscious decision in front of them to make -- if they still want to do a tourism birth, it is going to cost them (financially). It is not at all about being humanitarian or not. If they still choose to come, of course our medical personel would have to provide the usual level of medical care to ensure the best delivery possible. But it is going to cost them financially.

Don't want / can't afford the financial risk or burden? Then don't come to Canada for travels when you are beyond a certain time frame in your pregnancy. Nobody is forcing the expectant mother to act one way or another. The choice is still entirely hers (and probably her husband's).

There are a lot of smart people in the world, and a gob ton of them are much smarter than I am, so I'm sure they can come up with better policies / suggestions than I did here on how we can discourage / eliminate birth tourism.

Medical resources take a lot of time and money to build up. New doctors need a minimum of 8 - 10 years to train up. Nurses nowadays need ~5 yrs, I think? And then there are practical details such as hospital spaces, salaries, etc. Every resource is limited, and we can't just wave a magic wand and have our wishes granted right away.

The people who do this are rich and wealthy. They chose to come and not pay a dime and dash. That's the issue. So who end but paying the bill? Us tax payers. Even if your increase the fee 100x it doesn't matter coz they aren't paying anything. Have a system that force them to pay up or they won't get what the want (If the idea is to have a Canadian born baby simply refuse to release any docs/birth cert till the fee is paid in full).

Originally Posted by iwantaskyline

I see that you've taken a liking to the new marijuana legalization laws.

Well someone is got to pay for all extra service these tourism baby are causing and we should have every right to make them pay. They aren't poor at all. Most likely the people who do this is 50x richer than people on RS. They are just too cheap to pay and wants a free meal.

Originally Posted by FerrariEnzo

Isnt that illegal.. lol

Not paying for your medical bill is also illegal.