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China, the Americas, the Middle East were all prosperous and economically self-sufficient to various extents.
BUT
They all failed to industrialize prior to the 18th century when much of NW Europe did. Not discounting anything you've said but it's clear that when one civilization reaches that tipping point first, it makes it extremely difficult for the others who do not. China being a strong unified state and was able to resist full colonization but still suffering from it's effects. The most likely scenario for "India" if not colonized and unified by the British would have been their eventual colonization by other European powers and ending up a fractured mess like today's Sub-Saharan Africa. This is not a moral argument for colonialism just a harsh statement of fact. Just because you were king in High School doesn't mean you're set up for success the rest of your life.
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Japan was a state that was taken more seriously by the west than the rest of Asia. Japan, being an island state, never (afaik) got invaded. Cultural invasion, for sure, but not militarily. When Commodore Perry showed up with his black ships, Japan knew, in an instant, this was not any normal attempt to invade it. Look up "Kamikaze." That was from Korea's attempt at invasion way way back in history. Anyway, the Japanese put up large wall of sheets to keep the white devils from seeing what defences they had, which was nothing to speak of. The threat of the white devils lead to the Meiji Restoration and the beginning of industrialization in Japan. Japan became an unrivalled power in the east. Then, later in history, the British, Russian, French, and Portuguese were totally ass kicked by the Japanese. They, however, made the mistake of picking a fight with the United States of America. Anyway, the west influenced world order.
China, the Americas, the Middle East were all prosperous and economically self-sufficient to various extents.
BUT
They all failed to industrialize prior to the 18th century when much of NW Europe did. Not discounting anything you've said but it's clear that when one civilization reaches that tipping point first, it makes it extremely difficult for the others who do not. China being a strong unified state and was able to resist full colonization but still suffering from it's effects. The most likely scenario for "India" if not colonized and unified by the British would have been their eventual colonization by other European powers and ending up a fractured mess like today's Sub-Saharan Africa. This is not a moral argument for colonialism just a harsh statement of fact. Just because you were king in High School doesn't mean you're set up for success the rest of your life.
During the colonial period, India followed the non-industrial model as a developing country. However, a significant number of Indians took this model as a hindrance towards growth and they opined that only industrialization could maximize the economic growth of the country. After independence, India’s first Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru employed the tool of industrialization to eradicate poverty from the country.
With the introduction of industrialization, there was a significant amount of growth through the flow of internal and external economies that pushed the country towards self-sufficiency. Further, the government realized that the potential of exports and agriculture was limited and hence taxation occurred based on the terms of trade. Heavy industry of the country was given attention by emphasizing import substitution.
The introduction of industrialization in India could only be catalyzed through the implication of a centralized and planned economy. The administrative control occurred with the foundation of The Industries Act 1951 which focused on the development and regulation of the industry.
__________________ Until the lions have their own historians, the history of the hunt will always glorify the hunter.
The problem is many people today hate for the sole reason of hating.
That hate goes so far that they are unwilling to recognize any contribution that party/person/whatever made to the society.
Was Albert Einstein perfect? No. Outside of the academic, he was know to have issues with his family and some of his political views aren't particularly "acceptable" by today's standard. But this should not affect the recognition he deserves for the contribution he made to the society and science.
Was QEII perfect? Hell no. But as a monarch, she really devoted herself to the best interest of British people and the British monarchy is aspired to be. The fact that some want to look at nothing but bad things she had done really buzzle me. Many things that Manic! pointed out was not as simple as you make it to be. There are many things to consider... social influences, people's perception to monarchy... among many things.
No one is perfect. We are only human... so was QEII. But we all strive to be the best we can be and I truly believe that's what counts.
The problem is many people today hate for the sole reason of hating.
That hate goes so far that they are unwilling to recognize any contribution that party/person/whatever made to the society.
Was Albert Einstein perfect? No. Outside of the academic, he was know to have issues with his family and some of his political views aren't particularly "acceptable" by today's standard. But this should not affect the recognition he deserves for the contribution he made to the society and science.
Was QEII perfect? Hell no. But as a monarch, she really devoted herself to the best interest of British people and the British monarchy is aspired to be. The fact that some want to look at nothing but bad things she had done really buzzle me. Many things that Manic! pointed out was not as simple as you make it to be. There are many things to consider... social influences, people's perception to monarchy... among many things.
No one is perfect. We are only human... so was QEII. But we all strive to be the best we can be and I truly believe that's what counts.
Did Albert Einstein walk around with a bunch of stuff his family stole?
People keep telling me the Queen did a bunch of great stuff but Know one can list. Can you list things she has done that go beyond what an average person has done.
The royal family is nothing special and below many average family's.
Chuck meet Diana when he was 29 and she was 16. At that time he was dating her sister. 3 years later when he was 32 and she was 19 they got engaged. If your neighbour told you his daughter who was 19 was marrying a 32 year old who she meet when she was 16 what would you say?
__________________ Until the lions have their own historians, the history of the hunt will always glorify the hunter.
By that logic anyone who is a descendent of a British Parliamentarian, or the descendant of a trader, industrialist or nobility that benefited from the colonization of India should be held responsible and made to pay reparations?
By that logic anyone who is a descendent of a British Parliamentarian, or the descendant of a trader, industrialist or nobility that benefited from the colonization of India should be held responsible and made to pay reparations?
Are they walking around wearing stolen items?
Do you think Jews have the right to recover art that was stolen from their families by nazi's?
__________________ Until the lions have their own historians, the history of the hunt will always glorify the hunter.
Go to most museums in the world, everything is stolen.. There have always been wars and out comes a winner and a loser. Just because someone conquered a country 400 years ago and stole jewels and precious items doesn't mean those items should be retuned. That is what history is about, it's bad and good and we shouldn't be responsible for what happened in the past as long as we learned from it.
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Nobody better bring up the head tax thing. Those were people not of Canadian Citizenship. They wanted to come over here then got pissed because of a head tax.
What was even more crappy was the Internment of Canadian Citizens. My family was affected by it, but nobody. Not a single family member whined about it. My father kept saying it was war. Par for the course. Lost his family home, fishing vessel, everything. Sent east, 'cause he was a young male with a Japanese background (although he had Polynesian heritage). This world is unfair. You deal with it and move on. Instead of crying and whining about it, my father decided to dig himself out of poverty. Experienced racism, unfair practices, tormented by the RCMP, the union, longshoreman, etc. I can guarantee you he was so proud to fight through all that bullshit and become successful.
So, don't go whining about this and that, 'cause, like my father would say, "Fullshit!" He kept his dignity and integrity (the two things they couldn't steal from him). /rant
__________________
Quote:
"there but for the grace of god go I"
Quote:
Youth is, indeed, wasted on the young.
YODO = You Only Die Once.
Dirty look from MG1 can melt steel beams.
"There must be dissonance before resolution - MG1" a musical reference.
Nobody better bring up the head tax thing. Those were people not of Canadian Citizenship. They wanted to come over here then got pissed because of a head tax.
What was even more crappy was the Internment of Canadian Citizens. My family was affected by it, but nobody. Not a single family member whined about it. My father kept saying it was war. Par for the course. Lost his family home, fishing vessel, everything. Sent east, 'cause he was a young male with a Japanese background (although he had Polynesian heritage). This world is unfair. You deal with it and move on. Instead of crying and whining about it, my father decided to dig himself out of poverty. Experienced racism, unfair practices, tormented by the RCMP, the union, longshoreman, etc. I can guarantee you he was so proud to fight through all that bullshit and become successful.
So, don't go whining about this and that, 'cause, like my father would say, "Fullshit!" He kept his dignity and integrity (the two things they couldn't steal from him). /rant
The head tax was not for people who where not Canadian it was only for the Chinese. Prime Minister Brian Mulroney apologized for internment camps in 88 and gave compensation to any survivors. The royal family has never even apologized.
__________________ Until the lions have their own historians, the history of the hunt will always glorify the hunter.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manic!
Prime Minister Brian Mulroney apologized for internment camps in 88 and gave compensation to any survivors.
My uncle's best friend lost property in Aldergrove. A large parcel of land. In and around the 264th exit. It was confiscated and he and his family eventually lost it all (records being lost). Nobody from that family got anything as they all passed away before seeing anything. In fact, most of those who were interned died before hearing that apology.
Most of them accepted their fate. It was war. They just happened to be caught up in something they had no control over. Our government stole a lot of property and belongings................. from their own citizens.
All this is nothing compared to those who escaped from their homeland with nothing but their lives and the clothes on their back. Wars in Europe were brutal. Jewels and shit. Really?
Manic, use your great wealth and knowledge and make a difference. Get together with your buddy, Jagmeet and work for change, so all citizens are treated equal, including the indigenous population. Be the crusader you think you are and do it! I believe in you...............
god bless
__________________
Quote:
"there but for the grace of god go I"
Quote:
Youth is, indeed, wasted on the young.
YODO = You Only Die Once.
Dirty look from MG1 can melt steel beams.
"There must be dissonance before resolution - MG1" a musical reference.
My uncle's best friend lost property in Aldergrove. A large parcel of land. In and around the 264th exit. It was confiscated and he and his family eventually lost it all (records being lost). Nobody from that family got anything as they all passed away before seeing anything. In fact, most of those who were interned died before hearing that apology.
Most of them accepted their fate. It was war. They just happened to be caught up in something they had no control over. Our government stole a lot of property and belongings................. from their own citizens.
All this is nothing compared to those who escaped from their homeland with nothing but their lives and the clothes on their back. Wars in Europe were brutal. Jewels and shit. Really?
Manic, use your great wealth and knowledge and make a difference. Get together with your buddy, Jagmeet and work for change, so all citizens are treated equal, including the indigenous population. Be the crusader you think you are and do it! I believe in you...............
god bless
What happened to your family and your uncle's best friend was absolutely terrible. You may have accepted it bud many Japanese did not. That's why the government was forced to apologize and pay out money.
Can you honestly tell me if you saw your dad's boat in a harbor some part of you would not want it back?
__________________ Until the lions have their own historians, the history of the hunt will always glorify the hunter.
Fathered more RS members than anybody else. Who's your daddy?
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 25,427
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The people who were directly affected by the Internment took it on the chin. It was the following generations that started the wheels turning. I was affected in that we were forced to live in a one bedroom, one kitchen apartment in the DTES, with no bathroom. Shared the bathroom with 15 other families. 16 years of living like that. When young, I thought that was normal. When I grew up and reached high school, that was when it hit me......... this wasn't normal. I was so ashamed. Couldn't invite any friends over. Only one friend ever saw the way I lived. This black kid who became my best friend ever. Anyway, facing adversity is a powerful thing. I never got into feeling anger towards any one group. No time for that shit. When I went to UBC, it was worse. By this time, we moved away from the DTES. Still, no matter how hard you try, you can't hide your past. Thing that saved me? ESL classes at Strathcona. Shit, we had some fine educators at Strath. My wife grew up a few blocks away. Her family was a little better off. Life was tough. Once in a while, I still drive by the old neighbourhood to show my kids how I grew up.
What's really funny is I almost went over to the dark side. Found refuge at St. James Anglican Church Got to know Father Gardner (I think that was his name). Always open and always welcoming. I came to my senses........... thank god.
DTES was a very dark place, but what's really cool is any kind of light will shine so brightly. A colleague of mine used to say, "It's better to light a candle than to curse the darkness."
EDIT: My father got back into fishing after the war. Rental boat (probably from the lot that was confiscated during the war). He had some successful seasons and purchased his own boat. Named it after my sister. We worked on that boat like what seemed forever. Fixed it up. Installed a Ford Diesel engine, fibreglassed the hull, added higher gunwales, technology upgrades like radar, communications equipment, etc. Learned about bending and shaping wood. Electrical, mechanical, plumbing, you name it. Without any of this, I wouldn't be who I am now. My father did well for a person who had a grade two level of education. Anyway.........................
__________________
Quote:
"there but for the grace of god go I"
Quote:
Youth is, indeed, wasted on the young.
YODO = You Only Die Once.
Dirty look from MG1 can melt steel beams.
"There must be dissonance before resolution - MG1" a musical reference.
MG1, you have such a positive outlook on life; it’s very refreshing to see. Thank you!
__________________ Do Not Put Aftershave on Your Balls. -604CEFIRO Looks like I'm gonna have some hot sex again tonight...OOPS i got the 6 pack. that wont last me the night, I better go back and get the 24 pack! -Turbo E kinda off topic but obama is a dilf - miss_crayon Honest to fucking Christ the easiest way to get a married woman in the mood is clean the house and do the laundry.....I've been with the same girl almost 17 years, ask me how I know. - quasi
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I hate to hijack threads, but it is, after all, in the "Off Topic" forum.
I forgot to mention how music shaped my life. At 8 or 9 years old, I joined a local marching band. I was obsessed with music at a young age. Living on top of a night club/discotheque, lol, might have had something to do with it. Band became an option at Strathcona Elementary. It didn't last very long, but my mother bought me a trumpet. I believed she spent all her entire life savings on it (thanks, mom). I loved my trumpet. The buildings in the neighbourhood were all joined together with little to no space between them. The rooftop to the businesses below bordered the kitchen window. I remember stepping out and playing my trumpet on the rooftop. Played songs I've heard on the radio and some made up stuff - played what I felt at the moment. I could really belt out notes on the instrument. Beyond the rooftops was the hotel (Lions Hotel, I believe). Single men were residents of that hotel. multiple floors ten maybe more floors. Never did I get a, "STFU," or items thrown at me. I basically serenaded those people. It was like out of a movie, hee hee. The music teacher at Lord Strathcona Elementary, Dr. Theo Goldberg was a genius. He took my gift for music to a whole new level. Later on when I studied music at UBC, I was totally shocked when I found out he was a prof there. Mr. Harold King was the band teacher at Britannia Secondary. God, I loved that man. My mom loved to listen to me play. If it weren't for music, i would have probably done drugs or join a gang. So many forks and crossroads encountered, I have. I was fortunate that I made some right choices. I remember this one dude who moved into the neighbourhood. He wasn't a classmate, as he went to another school. He lived in the Gastown area, so probably went to some school in the downtown area. Anyway, he's the one who got me into smoking. His room was so cool, at least I thought so at the time. Beads, incense, and other weird stuff. Almost went to Woodstock with him, lol. Was gong to hop on a train and find our way there, somehow. My mother found out about me hanging out with this guy through people in the neighbouhood. What smartened me up was the time I saw my mom sobbing in the bedroom. I saw this and my heart just, don't know how to describe it. I quietly left the room and swore never to see this guy again. He moved to Vancouver from somewhere down in the US. I looked up to this guy. He was older and so "worldly." The neighbourhood is nothing like it is now. So many young families, mostly made up of immigrants. I remember how we all looked out for each other. My father , being a commercial fisherman was never home half the year. He was off to the West Coast (Ucuet/Tofino), Charlottes (Haida Guai), Prince Rupert, etc.
Maybe this post should be in this thread, but it is about adversity and dealing with stuff out of your control.
The people who were directly affected by the Internment took it on the chin. It was the following generations that started the wheels turning. I was affected in that we were forced to live in a one bedroom, one kitchen apartment in the DTES, with no bathroom. Shared the bathroom with 15 other families. 16 years of living like that. When young, I thought that was normal. When I grew up and reached high school, that was when it hit me......... this wasn't normal. I was so ashamed. Couldn't invite any friends over. Only one friend ever saw the way I lived. This black kid who became my best friend ever. Anyway, facing adversity is a powerful thing. I never got into feeling anger towards any one group. No time for that shit. When I went to UBC, it was worse. By this time, we moved away from the DTES. Still, no matter how hard you try, you can't hide your past. Thing that saved me? ESL classes at Strathcona. Shit, we had some fine educators at Strath. My wife grew up a few blocks away. Her family was a little better off. Life was tough. Once in a while, I still drive by the old neighbourhood to show my kids how I grew up.
What's really funny is I almost went over to the dark side. Found refuge at St. James Anglican Church Got to know Father Gardner (I think that was his name). Always open and always welcoming. I came to my senses........... thank god.
DTES was a very dark place, but what's really cool is any kind of light will shine so brightly. A colleague of mine used to say, "It's better to light a candle than to curse the darkness."
EDIT: My father got back into fishing after the war. Rental boat (probably from the lot that was confiscated during the war). He had some successful seasons and purchased his own boat. Named it after my sister. We worked on that boat like what seemed forever. Fixed it up. Installed a Ford Diesel engine, fibreglassed the hull, added higher gunwales, technology upgrades like radar, communications equipment, etc. Learned about bending and shaping wood. Electrical, mechanical, plumbing, you name it. Without any of this, I wouldn't be who I am now. My father did well for a person who had a grade two level of education. Anyway.........................
Your father a Canadian citizen was treated worse than a criminal just because of his ethnicity. But we had people who knew that was wrong and fought to make sure it never happens again.
Family story time:
In the 70's Quesnel BC only had one pub and it would not allow brown people to drink there. One night a brown guy goes in. The people at the bar tell him to get out or they will kick his ass. He said O.K. lets go. So they go outside thinking they where going to kick the shit out of this one guy. Outside his buddies where waiting behind cars with cricket bats and swords. A donnybrook broke out. One of the white guys from the bar lost an arm. From that day forward no one said shit to brown people drinking at the pub.
__________________ Until the lions have their own historians, the history of the hunt will always glorify the hunter.
In the 70's Quesnel BC only had one pub and it would not allow brown people to drink there. One night a brown guy goes in. The people at the bar tell him to get out or they will kick his ass. He said O.K. lets go. So they go outside thinking they where going to kick the shit out of this one guy. Outside his buddies where waiting behind cars with cricket bats and swords. A donnybrook broke out. One of the white guys from the bar lost an arm. From that day forward no one said shit to brown people drinking at the pub.
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