REVscene Automotive Forum - GM Doesn't have enough cash to make it through a few months

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Quote:

Originally Posted by OffroadZuki (Post 6147338)

Type R: You have some good points (the UAW's negative effects on GM, for example), but you're not getting the big picture in others.

The economic crisis has been around for a few short weeks. GM has been showing signs of HUGE troubles for years. No, Toyota is not at the centre of the meltdown right now, but you forget about the Asian market crisis of '97 and the fact that a HUGE chunk of Toyota's vehicles are built in North America. They pulled through the '97 crisis just fine and that shit made what we're going through look like a walk in the park.

Finally, all the cars you've mentioned are gas-guzzlers by comparison to the best-selling cars on the market. Where is GM's Honda Fit? (Don't say, the Aveo, 'cuz I've driven both and the Aveo is a boring hunk of garbage, whereas the Fit is edgy and fun to drive). Where is GM's Civic Hybrid? Where's GM's Prius? Heck, does GM even have a non-SUV/truck hybrid? They've come a long way with cars like the Malibu, but they're still trailing their competitors (like the Accord). And this is all coming from a former GM fanatic.

I agree with you that GM has had its problems, but they have been on track to fixing the problems for the last few years. GM is huge they can't fix the problems over night. If you looked at the numbers GM still sells more cars then any other company . GM would be profitable right now if they got rid to the legacy costs. GM has a deal with the UAW to fix most of the problems with overhead.

The credit crunch fucked them, they had planned to borrow enough money until the deal with the UAW came in in 2010. Credit dissapeared overnight with this problem.

Im pissed because AIG gets 1.5 trillon ,and they were a centeral cause to the crisis. GM asks for 35 billion and gets shit on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Type R (Post 6147703)

LOL Ok, i'm going to respond point by point were necessary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fastam (Post 6147856)

I agree with you that GM has had its problems, but they have been on track to fixing the problems for the last few years.

GM is huge they can't fix the problems over night. If you looked at the numbers GM still sells more cars then any other company . GM would be profitable right now if they got rid to the legacy costs. GM has a deal with the UAW to fix most of the problems with overhead.

The credit crunch fucked them, they had planned to borrow enough money until the deal with the UAW came in in 2010. Credit dissapeared overnight with this problem.

Im pissed because AIG gets 1.5 trillon ,and they were a centeral cause to the crisis. GM asks for 35 billion and gets shit on.

Sure they've been fixing it. But would you let a convicted kiddie rapist babysit your children? Even if he has been taking classes and hasn't touched an 8 year old boy in months? That's basically what's in people's minds. GM has gotten better in the last few years. Even if they got perfect overnight - which we both agree won't happen - it will take a while to change people's minds thanks to the last 20 years.

Don't even get me started on the utter BS that is the bank bailout...haha...And you're right...it is very interesting that they could save millions of jobs with a relative drop in the bucket and they won't do it, but they'll spend insane amounts to help their bank buddies.

The argument about hyrid battery replacement after a few years is weak. We(Campus honda) have been selling the insight since 2000(model year 2000, so actually 99 and had Civics since 2003 or and Accord since 2005 and we have never replaced a single hybrid battery. NOt 1!

Quote:

Originally Posted by projectcivic (Post 6148501)

I'll hit this one first. How many hybrids were actually sold at these points. I'm betting very very few. Like under 10 (1% market today, how miniscule was it when gas was 69.9?). Can you honestly be sure that the replacement wasn't done elsewhere? Do the original owners still own these cars, or have they been traded/sold etc? I see where you are coming from, but its a tough point to argue. Only reason I pick on the subject is because its the number 1 arguement made against hybrids by critics, and if their points are valid, then I would agree.

7-8 years is by no means a "few" years. If Civic hybrid was launched in 03, that means you still won't see the first one till 2010-11. As for the Insight, they sat parked more than they sold, being more than twice the price of a civic then.

Ok, point by point again..

Quote:

Originally Posted by OffroadZuki (Post 6147993)

You, sir, bring some good points to the argument.

Few points (and, really, some of these are gonna be nit-picking, and somewhat off-topic)...

I believe the Volt when I see it. Until I see it driving by me with Canadian plates slapped on it, I'm counting it out.

Fair enough, I will leave that be

The whole battery myth is just that, a myth. From what I've seen on msg boards the older Insights do just well fine their original battery packs and some of them have very high miles on them. Also, some manufacturers will cover the battery for a lot longer than the actual warranty on the car. I can't recall the exact year, but I think it's 8 or 10 yrs, or in that neighbourhood.

How long does your cell phone battery keep its charge? First 6 months, it will run for 3 days on one charge.. as time wears on, the batteries efficiency drops. Throw in the extremes of Canadian seasons, and i'm pretty sure that would just amplify it.

Chances are, a GM will eat a tranny before a hybrid Civic/Camry eats the batteries.

Where does the comment come from? GM trannies are pretty reliable, especially anything after 2k. My 99 Civic's shift linkage fell apart before the warranty was up, and it started chewing sychro's, does that mean all hondas are bad?

You kinda missed a VERY important point with the whole "necessary evil" comment about SUVs. MOST people who own them rarely ever have more than 4 people in the vehicle. Most large trucks/SUVs are transporting one or two people MAX. So, while you're right, there will always be a demand for them and some will legitimately need them, they will no longer be a fad. As soon as people will buy them because they NEED them, not because they WANT them, GM's sales will drop like a rock.

Truck sales are suffering already, as people are smartening up. Which I think is great. This is forcing GM to bring its already competitive european cars to N/A and stop its focus on truck/SUV's.. I think its great that North Americans are runnign smaller, more efficient (and greener) cars instead of the big trucks. I do find it really interesting that the imports insist now on entering the market (Nissan Titan/Armada, Toyota Sequoia/Tundra). This shift is making room for the X-overs, while just as effective as the large SUVs, they are far more effeicent and economical (and nicer to drive imo)

Yes, I believe the Aveo I drove was an '08, the only model year at my disposal at the time. But, I was comparing apples to apples...all the cars I quoted were '07/08s. I'll go down and drive a new one to see if they're any better. :) (In all fairness, the exterior has gone from "holy hell, shoot the designers" to "wow...that looks pretty damn good for a 13K car")

The replacement motor sounds like a gas engine, not a small diesel now. Its quiter, smoother, turns sharper, and gets better economy than the old one. And we are still splitting hairs over an entry level car.

I think the problem is that people still refer to V6 engines as "small"...

People love power, that will never change. Make way for FI engines though. GM was actually testing the 2.0L SIDI Turbo engine in the new camaro FYI.

I know people with Cobalt SSs and they're not very happy with the gas mileage and even when they take it easy I've yet to hear of anyone getting anywhere close to 40mpg...

Those weren't the 09s. The 2.4L S/C SS motor that was being used has been shelved this year. They are now using the 2.0L SIDI Ecotec Turbo which uses direct injection technology. More powerful & efficient design over the 2.4 setup.

You're right. Today and tomorrow IS more important. And I never said we SHOULD judge GM by what they did in the '80s/'90s. However, I am saying that a lot of people ARE doing that, and that's hurting GM.

This i'm aware of, which makes my job all the more rewarding when someone drives a new GM vehicle and says wow.

Btw, saying that there are more 80s GMs on the road than Hondas isn't really saying much unless there are numbers (# sold new/# still registered) to back it up. Even IF there are more 80s GMs still around (say twice as many), if they sold 10 times as many to begin with, then the imports are still doing better. Personally, my '91 S10 is on its third motor in 282K kms. My '88 VW Fox wagon was at somewhere around 350K on the original. My two other Foxes (both 250-300K kms at least) were on original engine/trans/clutch/everything. My '85 Caprice wagon dropped a cylinder at around 170K km. My '87 Buick LeSabre had everything wrong with it at 220-ish. My '90 Beretta GTZ (to show I'm not biased, my fave of all the cars I've owned, and I still want another one) was a hunk of junk by 200-ish.

My family has owned a number of old Fords, Buicks, and a 79 Merc Grand Marquis which ran great. And when something went wrong, you weren't charged an arm & a leg to repair. I don't have specific numbers for this, so maybe i'm not 100% correct on this point. But judging from your track record with your vehicles, theres one common denominator there (driver maybe ;))

Imports (especially old ones) cost way way too much to fix. What does a power window solenoid cost for a 94 Jetta? VW builds great motors, its the the rest of the electronics that cost a small fortune to fix. Honda I would say is by far the best for owning past 200k. There is very little electronics on most, so not much to go wrong, and the motors are easy to work on and get parts for.

I'm really honestly not biased. I still dream of C5 Corvettes and periodically search usedvic/craigslist for that GTZ that would scream "BUY ME." My baby is still a Chevy S10, which I've owned for almost 8 yrs. I still love the sound of a 60* V6 and am trying to convince my g/f to let me buy a Sky in a few years. I saw the top-of-the-line G8 (GT? GXP? can't remember) and fell in love. I like the new GTOs, I want a Holden and I want the Volt to be a success.

However, when it comes to buying something reliable and efficient (the stuff that most people want) I find myself turning away from the G5 (which I've test driven the GT version of), the Cobalt, the Aveo, etc and don't have a hard time justifying the few grand extra for a Fit or a Civic.

[b]I own a 2008 G5 GT full load (leather, roof, 6disc changer with XM) the only reason I regret buying it is because the new Cobalt SS came out a few months back (Tuurrrbooooooo). The car is a blast to drive, tonnes of torque, and its comfy as hell. Its not as good as a Civic Si, but almost, and it was thousands less. With a longer warranty, cheaper finance rates, it wasn't hard to make that decision. Not too mention its a more liveable car than the Civic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OffroadZuki (Post 6148015)

*sigh*

http://www.revscene.net/forums/showthread.php?t=555123

discuss

When was the last time you tried to return a leased vehicle early? Planes depreciate too, they have it, they are paying for it whether they want to or not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Type R (Post 6150123)

To be totally honest, I don't how many were sold and if any were replaced at other dealerships but us (Campus honda) having been servicing them here for 9 years and not ever seeing 1 issue with the batteries makes me wonder how anyone can base their agrument against hybrids based on battery life. To me, its like basing my agrument against another vehicle based on the chance a trans will blow at 10 years with no history of that type of vehicle ever having trans issues. I understand batteries are obviously different but I still want to see an issue before I call it a flaw of the hybrids. At the same time, I will be the the first to eat my words in this threads when I see a hybrid battery go.
And to be totally honest about hybrids, I am not a big fan at all honestly. I believe the extra cost isn't worth it to me. The amount of driving required to "save" the money on gas is too high. I would rather see a diesel. I like that agrument against hybrids better then their battery life.

Well, I can drop the battery side of the debate. But the math doesn't lie on whether a Hybrid is cost effective or not. Not too mention, if you are a road warrior, the added weight of the battery packs definately don't help your handling.

Not to debate it too much cause I think we are both on the same page now in terms of a valid reason against hybrids, theexcuseof the size and weight of the batteries has really only has a bearing on the few original Honda Hybrids. For example, the Insight, the majority of the rear in the car is the battery back hense the no rear seating. The newer hybrids are actually fairly small. Small enough to mount on the back of the rear seat. Weight is not much more then a persons own regular baggage. I doubt it would be enough to really effect fuel mileage. Particularly when Honda subs other lighter items such as a lighter trunk and hood, etc onto the hybrid models. I think we could go on forever about reasons for and against buying hybrid.
I still believe the best agrument anyone can use would be weather the extra cost of a hybrid can be made up by the average driver.

Speaking of GM and fuel economy efforts.

Quote:

Link: http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dl...801280366/1190

Rick Kranz - Automotive News - January 28, 2008 - 12:01 am ET

DETROIT — Never mind fuel cells, plug-ins or diesels. To achieve quick improvements in fuel economy, General Motors is adopting an off-the-shelf technology: small engines with turbochargers.

Next year GM will introduce a turbocharged 1.4-liter gasoline engine for small U.S. cars. The Chevrolet Cobalt and Saturn Astra are candidates for the engine, which is available without a turbocharger in the European Opel Astra.

GM engineering chief Jim Queen confirmed the company's plans to use the powertrain and said it could be used in mid-sized vehicles, too.

"You're going to see turbocharged four-cylinders in vehicles that no one could have ever imagined that they would be in," he said.

Queen did not indicate where the engines would be made or predict their fuel economy. The 2008 Cobalt with its 2.2-liter engine gets 33 mpg highway and 24 city.

Automakers find turbochargers a cost-effective way to improve fuel economy. This month Ford Motor Co. announced its EcoBoost system, a turbocharged gasoline engine with direct injection.

The 1.4-liter turbocharged engine is small by U.S. standards.

Turbochargers could cost GM $200 to $450 per vehicle depending on the system's sophistication, said Jim Hall, director of industry analysis at 2953 Analytics in suburban Detroit.

http://money.cnn.com/2007/08/23/autos/gm_hcci/

Chris (I hope to god I have your name right, Type R) I am completely sincere when I say I really hope GM will one day be as good as you believe it has the potential to be. I think it's cool that you're passionate about the product you're selling, even if it leaves you a bit biased.

Here it goes:

How long does your cell phone battery keep its charge? First 6 months, it will run for 3 days on one charge.. as time wears on, the batteries efficiency drops. Throw in the extremes of Canadian seasons, and i'm pretty sure that would just amplify it.

The point I was trying to make is not that hybrids last a while (which they seem to be, when I was looking at used hybrid Civics/Insights/Priuses - remember, the original Prius has also been around since '00 or '01 - I don't recall a single one boasting about having new batteries). What I was saying is that even IF they crap out after 5 yrs, it doesn't matter, they warranty them for 8-10 yrs regardless of the mileage, if I remember correctly

The replacement motor sounds like a gas engine, not a small diesel now. Its quiter, smoother, turns sharper, and gets better economy than the old one. And we are still splitting hairs over an entry level car.

Yes, but entry-level cars are the bread and butter of a car company: Yaris, Fit, Civic, Corolla, need I say more? With that said, I've already admitted that my comments were for the '08s, and I'm planning on testing an '09 one of these days to see what they're like

People love power, that will never change. Make way for FI engines though. GM was actually testing the 2.0L SIDI Turbo engine in the new camaro FYI.

hope it's not as much of a flop as the 4-cyl Camaros of the '80s ;)

Those weren't the 09s. The 2.4L S/C SS motor that was being used has been shelved this year. They are now using the 2.0L SIDI Ecotec Turbo which uses direct injection technology. More powerful & efficient design over the 2.4 setup.

Again, cool...but that still means that GM has JUST turned a corner and public perception will take a while to catch up

My family has owned a number of old Fords, Buicks, and a 79 Merc Grand Marquis which ran great. And when something went wrong, you weren't charged an arm & a leg to repair. I don't have specific numbers for this, so maybe i'm not 100% correct on this point. But judging from your track record with your vehicles, theres one common denominator there (driver maybe )

You missed the point. That's EXACTLY it...the common denominator IS the driver. Whether I baby my cars or beat the hell out of them is constant. What wasn't constant is how they took it. All my imports ran like a charm 'till the day I sold them, not something I could say about my GMs

Imports (especially old ones) cost way way too much to fix. What does a power window solenoid cost for a 94 Jetta? VW builds great motors, its the the rest of the electronics that cost a small fortune to fix. Honda I would say is by far the best for owning past 200k. There is very little electronics on most, so not much to go wrong, and the motors are easy to work on and get parts for.

I've never owned a GM that didn't need at least ONE power window switch fixed (sometimes all). Other than that, windshield washers were a novelty, cruise controls didn't work, etc, etc...the VWs/Zuki, on the other hand, have always had everything work just fine, aside from normal wear and tear stuff

I own a 2008 G5 GT full load (leather, roof, 6disc changer with XM) the only reason I regret buying it is because the new Cobalt SS came out a few months back (Tuurrrbooooooo). The car is a blast to drive, tonnes of torque, and its comfy as hell. Its not as good as a Civic Si, but almost, and it was thousands less. With a longer warranty, cheaper finance rates, it wasn't hard to make that decision. Not too mention its a more liveable car than the Civic.

Yeah, but if it's not as good a car as the Civic, and the Civic has a better track record of making it to 200K without a major problem than the GM, then it's not hard to see why people don't have a hard time justifying the few grand extra

The only times I have ever been in a hybrid, the gas engine was always running.

When I test drove the Cobalt SS/TC I got 40mpg @ 100km/h cruising in 5th, incredibly smooth I might add. But, when I put my foot in it, it went down to 10mpg.

However that's still better economy than the other 260hp compacts in it's class.

In terms of reliability, the main problems so far have been intake charge parking coming loose, and shifter linkages breaking. Most likely from people badly exploiting the No-Lift shift feature, and the easiness of cranking the boost in these cars.

I dunno, I think that's a lot better than faulty motor mounts, or door vandalism problems ala Mazdaspeed 3

People are already making 371HP, 380tq on stock internals with these things:

Vid: http://www.motivemag.com/pub/news/Sy...SS_Turbo.shtml

back to the big picture...I called it...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081202/...meltdown_autos

Maybe someone with more knowledge about these things can fill me in, with them on a $1 salary does that mean that is all they can receieve including stock options and other compinsations or does that mean his pay chq is $1 but he can still earn $15million dollars in other options assuming their stock rises?

Some good posts in this thread from both sides.

I will just chip in that I could not care less about the Volt. I am so tired of hearing about it on Fox news and seeing clips of it's prototype in Chev ads. It's like this carrot that GM has been dangling in front of consumers for so long...the savior of both GM and the environment with it's all-new technology and revolutionary power concept!

Guess what? You can go buy a prius (or a ford escape hybrid, or plenty others) RIGHT NOW, pick up a plug-in conversion, and wallah, there's your electric car with a backup gasoline engine. Sure it doesn't look as cool, and it will probably end up costing more, but it's not like GM is coming out with a product that you can't already pick up if you are so inclined.

Besides, when the volt finally comes out in 2058, Toyota will probably have a subcompact that uses a small fusion reactor.

Regarding the quality of cars and sales...I have sat in/driven many badly manufactured domestic vehicles in the past 8 years. It's not just from the 80s and 90s. I wasn't driving a lot of cars before '99.

My aunt rented a brand new grand am (less than 6000km) in like 2003 and the headliner was falling off the roof...I drove a 300c around kelowna and the handling was so wallowy it actually make me feel sick to drive, and the power seat would only go forward and not backward...I went down to the dealership to check out a new SRT-4 and the shift knob came off in my hand...I sat in a brand new cobalt ss at the vic auto show a couple years ago, and the silver trim around the radio was already scratched up revealing the black surface beneath (I guess the guy who did the PDI was wearing a ring?)...and the list goes on...

It's not bias, it's a consistent lack of quality that has been re-enforced for me over and over and over. If I am going to spend my hard-earned money on a product (whether it's a tv, a router, a cordless phone or a car), it's not going to be one that has I have seen with my own eyes to be inferior.

I get a Cobalt tomorrow as a loaner car while my Civic is in the body shop. I will give an honest opinion after that about how I feel about GM's recent model quality

Ford only has 5 corporate jets? How do they manage?

Quote:

Originally Posted by projectcivic (Post 6152137)

Yeah. This just means his actual salary is gonna be $1. Stock options and other goodies go on top of that. (He won't starve to death, that's for sure ;)) This is basically the same deal the AIG head honcho pledged.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OffroadZuki (Post 6152506)

Figured so. Not that I think any better of them but atleast now if they borrow any money they actual have something to loose or gain if their company does well or tanks.

Another good read on the big three's proposed bail outs:
http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/02/news...ex.htm?cnn=yes

I wonder who else will ask for money if this passes. And you can say bye bye to Saturn and Pontiac. Saturn will be shut down, and Pontiac will no longer be a dealership, but will be limited to niche markets where it will be sold in other dealerships (I'd guess Chevy or something).

Saturn was created to fight the import brands. They failed.

Pontiac, well, do they have any vehicles that don't have a counterpart with another GM product? I never understood why GM had a separate brand of slightly different products. The same thing goes with Chevy trucks and GMC.

In other words, I bet they won't be missed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Great68 (Post 6153254)

I think the Pontiac brand recently has started to come out with some different products - GTO comes to mind. I'm not sure if the G5, G6 and G8's have other counterparts across the GM line. Then there's the Vibe (if they still make it - once again not sure). But realistically, could probably take 2 cars out of those and integrate them easily into the Chevy brand. I don't think Pontiac has a big enough following for too many people to be upset to lose the name.