Maybe not so applicable any more, but hey, better late then never :thumbsup:

http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/attac...5&d=1229001780

What frustrates me about this whole situation is that many people are confusing vehicle quality with business practices. None of the companies producing cars for the North American market make bad cars. Some are better than others, and there are credits in all categories going to companies from both sides of the pond. The reality is, it has nothing to do with the cars anymore, but rather everything to do with management, unions, and now unfortunately, politicians.

What I find interesting about the quality issue is, back in the late 80s there was this obscure little Korean company that came to N/A named Hyundai. They produced (then) sub par and often dangerous vehicles and people learned very quickly to hate them. Fast forward a few years, and they design some of the nicest cars on the road, and most guys on this board will be the first to defend them. Why does Hyundai deserve that kind of loyalty, and not any of the domestic brands?

Interesting fact talking in regards to Seans lil pic..

Canadian Automotive Sales
Canadian sales this year, through Oct 31, 2008:

Manufacturer Cars/(Trucks/Vans/SUV)/Total Sales

General Motors 158,555/155,988/314,543
Ford 44,545/135,699/180,244
Chrysler 43,385/145,542/193,927
Honda/Acura 107,934/43,645/151,579
Toyota/Lexus 145,582/56,032/201,614
Mazda 63,159/12,281/75,440
Volkswagon/Audi 38,549/2,834/41,383
Kia 23,542/9,632/33,174
Mitsubishi 10,229/5,633/15,862

Sorry for the columns, but you get the picture. These numbers were taken from the Dec 2008 edition of Canadian Autoworld, and were reported by the manufacturers.

pretty much all car makers are impacted due to the slowdown
lol@that guy that said thank god i work for a jap company, theyre down over 35% aswell

Toyota Honda & Nissan have all cut back production.. Everyones effected

http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/12/news...ion=2008121211

There is no doubt the sales department is slower right now and here is a perfect evidense of that but at the same time if you read this article even with production cuts you will see Honda has no plans for lay-offs. My question how can Honda have halted production of 119000 units in north america yet have no lay offs but it seems GM is laying people off daily?
To me its starting to be clear, and its not build quality anymore its how the business is run and how high the costs are at the big 3.

Its pretty simple, Honda & Toyota only hire part time. Much easier to balance your employees if your workforce is all casual. Unions are one of the biggest problems with the big 3.

The quality i'd say is 85-90% on par with say Honda and Toyota. Part of the problem has been poor managment , but most of that has been resovled as well, GM was on the path to recovery(could be said they were taking too long) before the credit crisis screwed them, they were planning on useing credit to keep afloat until the the costs could be brought down, the unions are the only impediment now to bringing costs down. Even with GMs reduced market share there is no reason they can't be profitable, since they still sell more cars then anyone.

source?

part time plant workers would be a bad investment...
also lets touch on the jib about having a larger warranty than honda/toyota

they dont need a larger warranty to make people comfortable with buying their cars. they arent junk. hop in a Fit (hondas cheapest model) then hop in ANY GM Ford Dodge product made in north america. and tell me with a strait face that the domestic product has the same Fit (haha pun) and finish that the Honda does. if you do then you have been a saleman for too long.
its not even comparable. you can change the oil and brake pads on a Fit and drive it for 250 000kms without a single problem (i know i have seen the service records) try that in an aveo or crapalier, hello $900 (parts only 99-01 model) fuel pump in a cavalier at 160k among countless over NVH problems that the customer has long since given up on

Because I would actually buy some of their cars. The Tiburon and Sante Fe appeal to me. The genesis also looks sick too. In all honesty, the only north american car that appeals to me in any remote sense is the Chrysler Crossfire. The rest of their product line just doesn't do it for me at all. And I'm talking about cars I could actually purchase. Not like the Dodge Viper or Corvette. But on that same note, the only reason the crossfire appeals to me is because they are rare (no one bought them - were selling 2004 models in 2007), and their price tanked, so I could actually afford it. The new hyundai Genisys coupe looks absolutely amazing. That's the first new car I would actually consider buying. If GM came out with a car like that before Hyundai did, then I'd be all over it. But they didn't, and so there it is. No sale.

Haha , somone has even driven a fit 250 000km yet? They've been out for what 2 years?

I have no exprience with Fits yet as they are too new for aftermarket suppilers to pay attention too. However i can tell you not a single civic i've ever seen has been to 250 000km without the vavle seals being done, water pump. You are bitching about GM fuel pumps? I sell just as many fuel pumps for Civics as J-bodies. Not to mention how many distributers i seel for Hondas, so many we useally keep several in stock. How about how long CVs last in hondas?

Point is, every car out there has problem areas, take off your blinders.

Fuel pumps for Civics? Honestly in 5 years at honda I think I have seen 2 fuel pumps go. Of all those fuel pumps you sell for Civics, how often do those people come back cause that didn't fix their car. I will bet you 95% of the time it was the fuel pump main relay not the fuel pump. Big differnce. But tow truck drivers and people who have no idea about honda's like to call fuel pump whenever they see a no start and cant get fuel. I hear it a lot in the summer when the fuel pump main relay loves to poke its evil head out cause of the heat. Story usually goes like this, a car gets towed in. Customer walks in with the keys and tells me " car won't start, tow truck drivers says its the fuel pump or I think its the fuel pump cause I get spark but its not starting". I then send it into the shop and 10 mins later we have it running without replacing the fuel pump. Its a very easy fix and an very easy diagnosis if you know the relay is there.
End of Rant

Yes fuel pump relays have been a big sellers as well, and until recently we had a hard time getting them. But yes we sell a lot of honda fuel pumps. prolly for the same reason we sell them for other cars, people are dumb and let the tank run dry all the time.

In fact when i get to work in 20 min here. I'll look up the number of fuel pumps sold for EF to EM civics , and for 3rd and 4th gen J-bodies.

EDIT: Ok it apears im way wrong here. I retract my statment.

Im at 221 for civics this year , and about 1000 so far for j-bodies.

FWIW, my wife's Cavalier is 10 years old, and the only thing to go on it short of consumables has been the starter. It's possible to find one off examples to help prove any point.

ooops.

The part time factory workers issue was common knowledge, and was discussed on the news quite often. Its been said if GM followed that business model it would be far more profitable. Toyota isn't plagued by having to pay out UAW and benefits.

I agree with Fastam on the Fit. They haven't been on the road long enough for you to claim that. I will say its a better build than its bretheren on the road. But its also (again) far far more expensive in comparison. And I personally don't like the idea of sitting on the gas tank (literally) when i'm driving. And i've sold more G3 Hatchbacks against fit for that reason alone than any other.

GM offers the warranty because it can. It offers its customers that extra bit of piece of mind maybe trying to buy back a few customers who were burned before.

I agree on the warranty thing. No-body complains about hyundias up to 10 year warranty.

rofl, that's hilarious. People are stupid enough to think that a few feet of distance between a tank full of gasoline is going to make them any safer? If anything, it's safer being closer to the middle of the car, rather then near the rear like most vehicles. But once again roflcopter that people even use that excuse to decide on what car to buy... last time I heard of gas tanks exploding was.... Ford Pinto era, and even that wasn't that bad. lulz.

Haha I'm still laughing... I don't even know what to say!!! So when they're in an accident and the off chance the gas tank explodes, in a rear mounted gas tank they'll be blown through the windshield rather then through the sunroof... WOOTS! I SO WANT TO BE ON FIRE AND SHOT THROUGH THE WINDSHIELD RATHER THEN THE ROOF!!! THAT WOULD BE SO MUCH BETTER!!!!!

Fuck people are stupid.

I'm sorry I can't let this go... so said people who are afraid of gas tank placement I'm guessing wouldn't be caught dead on a scooter... ZOMG, gas tank near my gROIN!!! Or motorcycle... Gas powered Razer - AHH MY FEET, DON'T BURN MY FEET!! Ride on lawn mower... gas weed eater... chainsaw...

lol

You know a fuel tank fire, doesn't always result in an explosion.

rarely ever does it result in an explosion! It makes it even STUPIDER that people would choose a car based on where the fuel tank was located! With all those examples I was just trying to think of what those idiots that are making decisions like that are actually thinking... It's just so retarded!

:lol:lol:lol:lol

This debate has really gone downhill. Seriously though, I hope you are joking that people make a car purchase decision based on something like that.

Agreed. There really isn't a point in debating how good domestic cars are right now, because the domestics are the only ones saying they need billions of dollars given to them just to survive through a year. That in itself proves that something is seriously wrong.

But I'm still lol'ing at the gas tank example. Crap that was stupid.

Nope, dead serious.. Many people simply don't like that idea. I'm not debating if its correct or not. It does illustrate how ridiculous public perception can be :D

Thats nuts man, I don't deny your selling them but I do deny them being an issue. Like I said in 5 years at honda I think I have seen 2 fuel pumps in Civics go.