^^ That's a very good point.

even though they are "American" carmakers, they have industry in Canada as well, including vehicle plants, parts suppliers, etc. This is NOT simply an American problem

I understand that, but GM should be no longer American and become Canadian or perhaps a Chinese car maker. Since GM is doing terrible in the states, that could be an option or that could happen.

Here are some examples, Yaohan Center in Richmond was originally a Japanese shopping mall, but one in Japan bankrupted and it became Canadian.

Same as Victor(the company makes electronics). As we know, Victor is a Japanese company, however it originally was an American company.
What happened was the Victor(headquarter) in America bankrupted, but because they were doing well in Japan, Victor Japan survived. So now they have their headquater in Japan and officially became a Japanese company.

Also, just because they got bailout cash approved, that doesn't mean people are gonna rush to the dealership and start buying GM vehicles. Their cars are still shit compare to all the other competitors. Even in the slight chance if they ever could match the quality of other manufactures, they still got decades of bad reputation.

last I heard Ford was only asking for access to money should they need it.

You do know that American cars won many many awards over Japanese and European imports right? The quality and reliability isn't an issue, their reputation is. They're trying to shake off their bad reputation from the 80's and 90's... on the other side, Toyota's riding on the reputation they built during the same period. People aren't buying american because they're crap, they aren't buying because they think it's crap.

I've seen Toyota's quality go down in the past 10 years. I mentioned this years ago... Toyota has to cut corners to meet demand... then the Prius became their best selling car, unfortunately, profit margins on the hybrids are razor thin. So in the past 6 months, gas was at an all time high, Prius sales went through the roof and Toyota's profits fell 30%

Just in today, Toyota is expected to post a LOSS of 1.7 Billion. Guess what that means... more corners cut to to become profitable again.

Great thread!

I thought they announced that loss like 3 days ago? anyways, I agree with Toyota's quality has gone down, all the people I know have noticed that and I avoided buying Toyota for this reason too. Except Lexus of course.
I think Honda makes far better car, I mean Toyota does good job on marketing and stuff but I think the quality wise, Honda is better.

I know this is subective but GM vehicles tend to be ugly, some of them are vomit inducing.
The new CTS looks pretty good but I don't like a lot of them. (oh btw it's not only me saying this)
Also, GM makes way too many vehicles and tend to compete with eachother. The good example is Chevrolet Cavalier and Pontiac Sunflower. Why wouldn't they just make a better vehicle instead on spending all that money for designing different sheet metal?

I can understand why Ford is in better shape tho, they sell more cars to the government, and I think they're cars have better quality. I know this doesn't mean anything to general public, but Ford has a lot better technology to make sportscars, or better knowledge.
I mean the ZR-1 might be nice and stuff but compare to Ford, they have the Ford GT, also they make engines for Panoz Esperante, Saleen S7, Shelby Cobra, etc...and Ford is the only American company who has enough technology/commitment to participate in F1.

At this point, it doesnt matter anymore about quality, it may have been part of the reason GM and Chrysler found themselves here now but if it was only because of qaulity then no one else would be suffering and as you can see everyone is selling less, the only difference being Toyota and honda have been doing so well for the past years that they can afford to ride this out. No one can get credit therefore no one is buying cars. I worry that whatever the Big 2 does, it doesn't matter anymore because of this. Give GM all the money they want but if a bank won't lend someone money to buy the GM car what does it matter?

If anything, once Chrysler and GM go tits up (which I'm pretty confident will happen), there's going to be some killer deals on new vehicles... I'm not sure there's much I'd be interested in. Maybe a crossfire....

because people don't mock you enough for driving a miata?

i kiiid i kiiid :)

Dude the ZR-1 has more tech in the shocks then then entire Ford GT. Not to say it the GT isn't awsome. If you think GM doesn't have the know how to compete in F1 you are dreaming.

BTW GMs long term quality rating are better then Fords.

OH ZING!!

But yah, I'll admit I have a problem with buying cars that people might consider odd...

I really think the opposite - I think there are some spectacular looking cars made by GM, even more so than Toyota and Honda. Toyota plays the safe route (and it works for them - they do well).

It's not just GM making vehicles which compete with themselves. Lexus pissed me off for many years because they simply looked like re-badged Toyota's with a nicer interior. Another case, the CSX and the Civic. Even think of other industries. Bestbuy owns Futureshop, yet they place stores beside each other. Although overall sales at one unit will decrease, overall sales combined from both units would exceed than just having one. Same logic with the Cavalier and Sunfire. You are providing the consumer with more selection, at a marginal cost.

I found that the quality of Honda has gone down on some of their vehicles ever since they started producing some of their cars in NA. Just my opinion.

Exactly... it doesn't matter if they sell a Sunfire or Cavalier, GM still pockets the money.. and the R&D costs is a lot less when you develop two cars on the same platform. Toyota does the same thing, the Corolla, Matrix, Celica and MR2 Spyder (heavily modified but it is) are based off the same platform. I'm surprised they haven't made a Lexus based on this platform..

I'm sorry, but the new Accords and TL's are pretty vomit inducing themselves.

This topic has been beaten to death on the Vancouver chat. People who say this have never driven or compared the two.
For example the Camry and ES350. People think they're just rebadged but it's not. The ES has a lot better suspension(usually adjustable), a lot more sound proof, and you will feel like you're driving a completely different car.

http://www.autospies.com/news/Do-You...-To-BMW-39165/

look at these comments...

"Hahaha...where's the proof?"
"What is everyone laughing at? It was Chrysler who gave us the K-car, remember?"
"He still thinks he's running Lexus."

Eye appealing I have to agree the new TL is awful but having driven the Accord, its an awesome car and the TL is apparently even better. I do like the looks of the new Accord coupe though

No actually, they feel almost identical. I drove both, about 4 of each when a friend wanted to buy one, and yah, they felt like the same damn car.

Sorry, didn't click the link but I see tons of K cars still on the road. I have some friends who own one and it's been of the best cars they've ever owned.

Just saw a commercial for the Chevy Volt. Launch date 2010.

Hmm, thought that was supposed to be earlier. I know GM has been pushing to get bailout money to make them last to 2010, because that's when their labour agreement kicks in. I wonder if they pushed the release of the Volt back to encourage governments to give them money, because they'll apparently have a eco friendly, consumer desirable product by then...

And I would still be very surprised if we see that new Camaro show up. That thing just keeps getting delayed.

sorry guys, one single car (Volt) is not going to save GM. when the almighty Toyota struggles, I see no light at the end of tunnel in GM or Chrysler.

Toyota just unveiled one teaser pic of "Toyota EV" and it is different than the Prius since it is designed to compete with the Chevy Volt.
I don't think Toyota will let GM dominate the market easily. They will unveil more details next month, and I'm sure this is going to be a huge threat to the Volt.
They did good job on the logo indicating it is a plug-in electric car.

http://response.jp/issue/2008/1223/a...ges/206930.jpg

The Volt is kind of pointless anyway, any of you guys seen the latest Top Gear. Hydrogen fuel cell is really the best thing going. Jay and James nail the point home later in the episode and it makes perfect sense.