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Old 02-17-2012, 08:07 PM   #17201
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Yes, trades never guarantees anything but come on. Comparing Nash to Richards and I assume you mean Carter is laughable.

If Nash is in LA, is it possible they will miss the playoffs? Yes, probable, no unless they get fleeced in the trade.

And if that bum Penner ever decides to play hard, watch out.
haha oops yes i meant Carter. I'm not saying Carter and Richards are 100% on par with Nash but my point is in sports it's possible and quite often likely things don't work out the way you expect. Chemistry is an odd thing.
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Old 02-17-2012, 08:24 PM   #17202
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Sorry, more on Rick Nash. I'll be very surprised if he gets dealt at the trade deadline. Lots to consider. A) he's just not worth the 7.5 million a year. B) the team that acquires him are gonna fuck themselves over for the next 5 years cuz of the prospects, and or draft picks and or roster players they have to give up. Dunno if any team is willing to do that. C) there could be better guys (IE Parise) that might be available on July 1st and you don't have to give up anything. And D) prolly the most important thing for Howson to consider is, are the guys they're getting back actually wanna play in Columbus? The last thing they need is another Jeff Carter situation where they player don't wanna be there. I really don't think many NHLers say "I would love to play in Columbus!" So therefore, I'm guessing Nash stays exactly where he is.
I guess NJ definitely got a good bang for their buck with Kovalchuk.
I think it's pretty impressive he puts up 60~ points playing in Columbus the last 6 years (i think. before carter arrived) doing it more or less by himself.
Since this is Gomez's worst season in his career it's been the talk lately. I remember Gomez signing a 10M contract before? (without taking cap hit into consideration, just straight pay cheque numbers) Would you say that's worth it? On average i'm pretty sure Nash puts more points up than Gomez and gets paid less. Nash's contribution for team Canada is pretty solid proof he's a legit player. Yeah, I'm keeping in mind that team Canada's roster is stacked with all-stars.

You're right though, teams are going to fuck themselves to in order to acquire high profile players. But that's the nature of any sport. First thing I thought of when NJ signed Kovalchuk was "Cool, now they can pretty much write off Parise."

Aside from the physical size and weight difference, they are about the same age i think, and stats are both roughly a pt per game. Sure you might not have to give up assets to sign Parise, but he's due for a huge pay raise anywhere he signs. IIRC he's sitting around 6M atm, I'm betting he'll sign at 8M roughly.

I'm not trying to say Nash is the best player available or that he's better than Parise, lets not get it twisted. I personally believe if given the chance to play with a couple solid guys, he can put up an additional 20 points. I have no idea why Carter and Nash aren't doing well there. Maybe chemistry sucks with them.

People a few pages back have already stated playing in Columbus isn't the shittiest place in the market. I mean from a fan POV, I viewed FL as one of the worst places to play until you factor in stuff like: nice weather, media wont harass you, in general a nice place to live. Sure the team does shitty, but I think it only takes a few players to commit and move to a shitty team to start attracting other players. It was a bit surprising but at the same time is wasn't when Campbell signed with the Panthers. I thought he was going to go to a cup contending team, but he went with the Panthers, basically the polar opposite of that. This year they are doing pretty fucking well.

/rant
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Old 02-17-2012, 08:59 PM   #17203
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Old 02-17-2012, 09:02 PM   #17204
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It was a bit surprising but at the same time is wasn't when Campbell signed with the Panthers. I thought he was going to go to a cup contending team, but he went with the Panthers, basically the polar opposite of that. This year they are doing pretty fucking well.

/rant
IIRC Campbell got traded to the Panthers, not signed. But continue
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Old 02-17-2012, 09:45 PM   #17205
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I guess NJ definitely got a good bang for their buck with Kovalchuk.
I think it's pretty impressive he puts up 60~ points playing in Columbus the last 6 years (i think. before carter arrived) doing it more or less by himself.
Since this is Gomez's worst season in his career it's been the talk lately. I remember Gomez signing a 10M contract before? (without taking cap hit into consideration, just straight pay cheque numbers) Would you say that's worth it? On average i'm pretty sure Nash puts more points up than Gomez and gets paid less. Nash's contribution for team Canada is pretty solid proof he's a legit player. Yeah, I'm keeping in mind that team Canada's roster is stacked with all-stars.

You're right though, teams are going to fuck themselves to in order to acquire high profile players. But that's the nature of any sport. First thing I thought of when NJ signed Kovalchuk was "Cool, now they can pretty much write off Parise."

Aside from the physical size and weight difference, they are about the same age i think, and stats are both roughly a pt per game. Sure you might not have to give up assets to sign Parise, but he's due for a huge pay raise anywhere he signs. IIRC he's sitting around 6M atm, I'm betting he'll sign at 8M roughly.

I'm not trying to say Nash is the best player available or that he's better than Parise, lets not get it twisted. I personally believe if given the chance to play with a couple solid guys, he can put up an additional 20 points. I have no idea why Carter and Nash aren't doing well there. Maybe chemistry sucks with them.

People a few pages back have already stated playing in Columbus isn't the shittiest place in the market. I mean from a fan POV, I viewed FL as one of the worst places to play until you factor in stuff like: nice weather, media wont harass you, in general a nice place to live. Sure the team does shitty, but I think it only takes a few players to commit and move to a shitty team to start attracting other players. It was a bit surprising but at the same time is wasn't when Campbell signed with the Panthers. I thought he was going to go to a cup contending team, but he went with the Panthers, basically the polar opposite of that. This year they are doing pretty fucking well.

/rant
I don't quite follow what you're trying to say but I'll try my best to respond. About the Kovalchuk signing. Kovy got that money cuz he's scored 40 goals or more 5 times and twice went over 50. Kovy has also twice hit 90+ points. Nash can't even dream bout numbers like that. I'm not saying Kovy's contract is worth but that's why he got we he got. As for Gomez, nothing needs to be said bout him. A dumb GM who signed him to that contract and a even dumber one to trade for him.

You think it's "pretty impressive he put up 60 points playing in Columbus". Well we totally disagree on that one. I think it's pretty sad. 60 points from a first overall pick? Lets look at the 1st overalls around him. As mentioned, we have Kovalchuk one year before Nash, Ovechkin, two years after Nash and Crosby, 3 years after Nash. 60 points would be career lows for those guys. I know, we can't compare Nash to those guys cuz he doesn't have the support those guys have. But this year, he's had Carter for a bit and it's turning out to be the worst years of both their careers. A great player will make others around him better like Iginla.

As for guys wanting to play in Columbus, I think the only players that wanna play there are guys that absolutely don't care bout winning games or even making the playoffs and are just there to collect a paycheque. Other than that, I don't see why any NHLer would wanna play for a club who's made the post season once in 12 years.
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Old 02-17-2012, 09:57 PM   #17206
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60-70~ points / 30+ goals each year for a guy who plays on one of the WORSE teams in the NHL, who doesn't have legit linemates is pretty solid numbers if you ask me.

He's been carrying Columbus for 9 years and it's scary how he can put those types of numbers. Putting him with the Sedin's would put him on a whole other level.
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Old 02-17-2012, 10:12 PM   #17207
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Sorry, more on Rick Nash. I'll be very surprised if he gets dealt at the trade deadline. Lots to consider. A) he's just not worth the 7.5 million a year. B) the team that acquires him are gonna fuck themselves over for the next 5 years cuz of the prospects, and or draft picks and or roster players they have to give up. Dunno if any team is willing to do that. C) there could be better guys (IE Parise) that might be available on July 1st and you don't have to give up anything. And D) prolly the most important thing for Howson to consider is, are the guys they're getting back actually wanna play in Columbus? The last thing they need is another Jeff Carter situation where they player don't wanna be there. I really don't think many NHLers say "I would love to play in Columbus!" So therefore, I'm guessing Nash stays exactly where he is.
Good points.

A) That's debatable. Nash will be refresh being on a better team and having a chance at the cup.
B) LA has enough to not miss them too bad.
C) They would like to solidify their playoff spot and improve team overall depending on the actual trade.
D) CBJ can't be worse than how they are doing now and prospects are are easier to mold and be grateful of ice time.

Lombardi can feel the heat due to mediocrity for a long time.

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haha oops yes i meant Carter. I'm not saying Carter and Richards are 100% on par with Nash but my point is in sports it's possible and quite often likely things don't work out the way you expect. Chemistry is an odd thing.
All the trade talk is all good guys. Keeps things interesting and gives different perspectives. All I am saying is I rather the Canucks have an easier road in the playoffs.

Wonder what MG's been up to? Maybe kicking the tires on Allen, Lydman, Gaustad or Moen. Haha.
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Old 02-17-2012, 10:39 PM   #17208
 
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if he gets on a decent team hes hitting 80+ points. plays with no one, against teams best defensive pairing and usually checking line. im actually amazed he puts up the amount goals he does every year.
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Old 02-17-2012, 10:47 PM   #17209
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You think it's "pretty impressive he put up 60 points playing in Columbus". Well we totally disagree on that one. I think it's pretty sad. 60 points from a first overall pick? Lets look at the 1st overalls around him. As mentioned, we have Kovalchuk one year before Nash, Ovechkin, two years after Nash and Crosby, 3 years after Nash. 60 points would be career lows for those guys. I know, we can't compare Nash to those guys cuz he doesn't have the support those guys have. But this year, he's had Carter for a bit and it's turning out to be the worst years of both their careers. A great player will make others around him better like Iginla.

As for guys wanting to play in Columbus, I think the only players that wanna play there are guys that absolutely don't care bout winning games or even making the playoffs and are just there to collect a paycheque. Other than that, I don't see why any NHLer would wanna play for a club who's made the post season once in 12 years.
Completely agree with you on the Nash/Kovalchuk comparison. In his final years in Atlanta, Kovalchuk went on long stretches where he was single-handedly carrying the Thrashers on his back and making shit players look good.

In 08-09 - Bryan Little (31 goals -- by far his career best to date) and Todd White (73 pts -- by far a career best, vanished into obscurity after Kovalchuk left).

09-10 -- Nik Antropov, career best 67 pts (Been on a 40-45 pt/yr pace since). Afinogenov, career best 61 pts (had 20 in the previous season).

Vermette, Huselius, Umberger and Voracek aren't great players but they're not that inferior compared to the likes of Nik Antropov, Little, White and Afinogenov, might even be able to argue that they were marginally better.

John Tavares basically only has Moulson and Streit, he has 55 pts compared to Nash's 39 in the same number of games so far. If Tavares was in Columbus and Nash on Long Island, I'd have to say, IMO, Tavares will still be able to be a pt/game player while Nash still wouldn't have much more than the 39 he has now.
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Old 02-17-2012, 10:54 PM   #17210
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How do you know Nash wont be able to pull high numbers if he had legitimate teammates? Even Kovalchuk playing in ATL for most of his career, had a few legit line mates - hossa, bondra, dupuis, forgot afingenov too! etc.

Ovie had semin, green, backstrom, plus Washington wasn't the worst team in the NHL and neither was Pittsburgh. Crosby as we already know is the best player in the league, there's nothing to really argue about that. I'm not trying to compare Nash to a guy like Crosby, I'm just comparing him to guys around the same skill level and pay.

I have no idea whether or not he would be better if he were on another team with better line mates. We wont know unless he makes a change in scenery.

I'm not saying Iginla sucks, but clearly chemistry is a huge factor for players. Otherwise maybe guys like Jokinen, Stajan and Bowmeester might be playing better.

edit: it's easy to compare when you're only pointing out 1 season. it's already a fact that both carter and nash are having a shitty season.
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Old 02-17-2012, 11:00 PM   #17211
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When Hossa and Kovalchuk were in Atlanta together, they played on separate lines for the most part. Hossa with Kozlov and Kovalchuk with Holik on the 2nd line.
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Old 02-17-2012, 11:05 PM   #17212
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When Hossa and Kovalchuk were in Atlanta together, they played on separate lines for the most part. Hossa with Kozlov and Kovalchuk with Holik on the 2nd line.
Players would still get shuffled between lines. They still had a better overall roster. What has Columbus had? I thought CBJ might have been able to turn things around a bit when they picked up Huselius, but he's seen better days as a Flame.
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Old 02-17-2012, 11:13 PM   #17213
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Players would still get shuffled between lines. They still had a better overall roster. What has Columbus had? I thought CBJ might have been able to turn things around a bit when they picked up Huselius, but he's seen better days as a Flame.
What has Columbus had? A top 8 draft pick every single year Nash has been in the league with the exception of 2009 and they drafted a forward with all those top 8 picks. Common sense will tell you that Nash would be able to create some chemistry with one or two of them. But no, he hasn't. You can't discredit Ovie and how he made have made guys like Semin and Backstrom better. And as Clowe mentioned earlier, all you gotta do is look at Tavares. Who's even heard of Moulson and Parenteau (both 9th round picks btw) before they started to play with JT? Now look at them. I'm not saying Nash wouldn't find success if he leaves the CBJ, of course he will. But he's not as good as some of you say he is.
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Old 02-17-2012, 11:15 PM   #17214
 
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Vermette, Huselius, Umberger and Voracek aren't great players but they're not that inferior compared to the likes of Nik Antropov, Little, White and Afinogenov, might even be able to argue that they were marginally better.

John Tavares basically only has Moulson and Streit, he has 55 pts compared to Nash's 39 in the same number of games so far. If Tavares was in Columbus and Nash on Long Island, I'd have to say, IMO, Tavares will still be able to be a pt/game player while Nash still wouldn't have much more than the 39 he has now.
Umm Id take all of the players you listed that kovalchuk had over what nash had. Bad comparison in my opinion. I also doubt tavares would be ppg in columbus. Western conference is harder than eastern. Its been obvious for a long time. Islanders have a lot more than just moulson and streit too.
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What has Columbus had? A top 8 draft pick every single year Nash has been in the league with the exception of 2009 and they drafted a forward with all those top 8 picks. Common sense will tell you that Nash would be able to create some chemistry with one or two of them. But no, he hasn't. You can't discredit Ovie and how he made have made guys like Semin and Backstrom better. And as Clowe mentioned earlier, all you gotta do is look at Tavares. Who's even heard of Moulson and Parenteau (both 9th round picks btw) before they started to play with JT? Now look at them. I'm not saying Nash wouldn't find success if he leaves the CBJ, of course he will. But he's not as good as some of you say he is.
4 of those were busts. filatov, brule, picard, zherdev. while voracek is a 3rd liner on philly now
only 1 forward drafted with their top pick remains on the team in the nhl, johansen who possibly isnt even ready for the nhl yet.
Parenteau put up 100+ in the q, ppl heard of him. the isles also have Nielsen, Grabner, okoposo and next year a maybe nhl ready Niederreiter

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Old 02-17-2012, 11:44 PM   #17215
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I think Nash is overrated, to be honest. He's not a $7.8m player...he's just paid $7.8m because Columbus tried to convince him to stay on their shitty team.

Nash is a great player but he's not goddamn amazing. He's topped 40 goals once. He's had 70 points once. Say all you want about how he plays on the worst team but truly world class players that get $7.8m make the team better regardless of who they're playing with. Crosby hasn't had a decent linemate his entire career!

Too many people think he'll immediately be amazing when he goes to a contender but players as recent as Bouwmeester show that the best player on a terrible team doesn't immediately become a superstar when he moves to a better team.
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Old 02-17-2012, 11:45 PM   #17216
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^ beat me to it regarding the draft picks.
well columbus had money to toss around, of course they are gonna try to secure their only good draft pick by paying him to stay
my point was never stating that he's amazing, i just think there's a good chance he'll do better given the chance in a better environment.
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Old 02-17-2012, 11:47 PM   #17217
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I think Nash is overrated, to be honest. He's not a $7.8m player...he's just paid $7.8m because Columbus tried to convince him to stay on their shitty team.
There's a difference between being overrated and being overpaid .

Nash is definitely overpaid than overrated IMO.
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Old 02-17-2012, 11:52 PM   #17218
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Old 02-18-2012, 12:30 AM   #17219
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Umm Id take all of the players you listed that kovalchuk had over what nash had. Bad comparison in my opinion. I also doubt tavares would be ppg in columbus. Western conference is harder than eastern. Its been obvious for a long time. Islanders have a lot more than just moulson and streit too.

4 of those were busts. filatov, brule, picard, zherdev. while voracek is a 3rd liner on philly now
only 1 forward drafted with their top pick remains on the team in the nhl, johansen who possibly isnt even ready for the nhl yet.
Parenteau put up 100+ in the q, ppl heard of him. the isles also have Nielsen, Grabner, okoposo and next year a maybe nhl ready Niederreiter
Let me start off by saying I totally understand that not every single top 8 pick turns out. I get that. And yes, some of the blame can go to whoever the hell runs the CBJ scouting department. But Rick Nash can't escape blame here. He's team captain and leader. It's his job to make others around him better. At some point, he's gotta look in the mirror and ask himself if there was more he could've done to turn a few of them into solid NHLers. Lets not forget that Filatov was the top ranked Euro for his draft and Brule was at one time the 2nd best prospect in the world behind only Crosby so these guys know how to play the game.
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Old 02-18-2012, 01:36 AM   #17220
 
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doesnt matter who they are or what they were in juniors. only thing matters is if they can translate it to the nhl. they couldnt. thats why you see busts and surprises fromt he late rounds because the players themselves have to learn how to develop by themselves too along with management overseeing them. is the progression of columbus's prospects any of nash's fault ? was naslund to blame because jason king couldnt become anything better than a temp fill on the sedin line? simply its not, columbus doesnt know that allowing prospects more time in juniors and ahl helps them. they constantly rush their prospects and fail because of it. a large if not all of columbus's problems come from the gms/ownership. nash is a shooter not a playmaker think of a james neal type of player. hes a big elite power forward but without someone who can be a good playmaker hes tapped out at 60-70 by himself. if he goes to a team with that playmaker hes got more points and youll be changing your opinion
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Old 02-18-2012, 01:57 AM   #17221
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lol @ comparing Nash and Kovalchuk. Kovy managed to be a PPG+ player on a shitdick Atlanta franchise. Nash has only been a PPG player once in his career. Like Ronin said, he's great, but he's definitely not amazing.
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Old 02-18-2012, 02:13 AM   #17222
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From TSN Radio 1050: Henrik Sedin interview
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This is from what I remember: I might have missed a few, so please add anything I missed (I just don't want to re-listen to write out a re-cap)

- thought that the team knew how to handle the media well when they were under extreme watch of the entire country during the SCF and the locker room wasn't affected by the outside media

- this year's team is better because of what they went through last year. having that experience of the ups and downs and how to handle things will make them succeed

- it was special beating Boston in Boston after last season and that the win gave them some confidence

- he appreciates that he's gotten to play with his twin brother his entire career

- he thinks he and Daniel have answered the questions of whether the Sedins can perform individually or not when he went 20 games without Daniel in the lineup in 2009-2010 and scored at the same pace

- in response to him and Daniel coming in 2nd and 3rd in ESPN's most easily intimidated all-star poll, he questions by what standard they measure these things (subjective viewpoint, what others may think, what media may think, etc) when they answer the questions

- uses Phaneuf being most overrated in the league as an example of unclear standards because he think Phaneuf is a great defenseman in this league (showing respect to tomorrow's opponent as well as the captain of the hometown team in which the radio interview is held)

- also says that he would never answer these types of polls and that other players should also stay away from them because for him the character of the person who was voted is not reflected by these polls, but rather these polls say something about the character of the person who voted

- interviewer pretty much tells him that he and his brother are top 5 talents in the league and extremely underpaid and whether they took a hometown discount or not, but Henrik says he is happy with the money he signed for because they did not want to leave Vancouver and that they thought it was a fair deal

- also says that there are a lot of players on Vancouver who are outperforming their salary and that that's what teams need in order to win and be successful
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Old 02-18-2012, 08:04 AM   #17223
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When Hossa and Kovalchuk were in Atlanta together, they played on separate lines for the most part. Hossa with Kozlov and Kovalchuk with Holik on the 2nd line.
Kovalchuk and Nash are different players. 2.5 mil diff. J/K.

Most will say Kovalchuk is a better player and I agree. I do believe he had better people around him than Nash though. I don't follow hockey that much but just with the example above you can deduct he wasn't the only scoring line and probably had more room and options to work with in regular and PP time.

Comparing players based on salary/points only can be flawed.
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Old 02-18-2012, 08:09 AM   #17224
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From TSN Radio 1050: Henrik Sedin interview
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Sedins are a class act and glad to have them here.

Hope their play ramps up for the playoffs.

Don't forget it's an early game today boys.
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Old 02-18-2012, 08:12 AM   #17225
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Happy bday CoHo

Born in Toronto and playing Toronto today on his 22nd birthday

Perfect scenario if you ask me
Coho with 2G + 2A!
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