BC teachers issue strike notice

[goo3]

Originally Posted by Culverin

While I understand class sizes (especially for children) does factor into how much attention a teacher can give each student. It very much seems that it has become a bargaining chip and a bit of an unrelated excuse so they can string along for wage increases. I'd honestly have a lot more respect for the teacher's side if they went to bat for updated text books, teaching materials, equipment, paid workshops and the like. Maybe the teachers do that kind of stuff right now, but it happens behind the scenes? It sure as heck isn't public that it's a priority for them. So if they deserve my support, they sure as heck haven't demonstrated it and therefore don't command it.

The pie is only so big. More money for that stuff kinda means less money for wages. I don't blame them for trying to bargain. At the same time, we don't have to believe everything they say.

[taylor192]

Originally Posted by MG1

or................. you can take the required courses and get into the profession.

I know what you're getting at, if you cannot beat'em join'em, yet after having worked in the government for a bit I could never return knowing how much time/money I wasted due to stupid rules.

Some of us have a conscience... surprisingly

[C5_Ryder]

Originally Posted by Culverin

• pretty damned good job security
• collective bargaining
• 12% every 4 years
• guaranteed cost of living adjustment
• 2 months off

If you work in the private sector, you'll see how out of control that list is.
How many of those 5 items do you think we get in the private sector.
I'd give my left testicle for 2 of those items.

Most people go into those types of civic jobs knowing the benefits. Your not going to get rich doing this but its a rewarding and stable career. If those benefits arent present, they wouldnt attract a lot of potential teachers.

The private sector has way more earning potential and perks IF your good at what you do.

[UFO]

Originally Posted by MG1

or................. you can take the required courses and get into the profession.

Originally Posted by C5_Ryder

Most people go into those types of civic jobs knowing the benefits. Your not going to get rich doing this but its a rewarding and stable career. If those benefits arent present, they wouldnt attract a lot of potential teachers.

I think that's the problem with teachers, at least in BC. The perks attract the good teachers, and the average joe schmoe who shouldn't be a teacher in the first place. There are a LOT of crappy teachers in the system, those who don't really care about the education of the children, but have taken on the profession because of its perks (and there are many of them as listed) and see teaching as just another job, putting in the bare minimum just to get by. These teachers are clogging up the system and preventing those who are passionate about teaching from doing the job which they love. These are the teachers who are unable to handle class sizes larger than 25 because they are unable/unwilling to put in the extra time and effort for the betterment of the children as a part of their job responsibility.

You can argue that there are these types of people in any field, but it seemed like when I was in university, teaching was the fall back plan of many who didn't know what to do with their useless bachelor's degree after graduation. At the other end of the spectrum, if retirement aged teachers don't have to retire by a certain age, this would also discourages cycling of young teachers into the system. Instead the union protects these seniors who often times are so jaded and tired of teaching that they are there just to babysit and read essentially, and these are the same teachers that get paid the most due to seniority.

If teachers were held more accountable, administrators had the ability to hire/fire based on performance, then everything would look much different. The union will never let this happen obviously, which brings us back to square one.

My views may be biased as my wife was a teacher by training but has given up on getting a steady position after being on the substitute list for 6 years, half of those years getting calls once or twice a week to work (and many times just for a morning or afternoon)--we all got bills to pay right? I've also known acquaintances and friends who have entered the field and were really not the teacher type of personalities.

[MR_BIGGS]

Matt Damon defends teachers against a [expletive] cameraman! - YouTube

[Jermyzy]

Originally Posted by MG1

If nurses were going on strike/job action, people would be all over how it's an easy job, blah, blah, blah. Walk a mile in people's shoes before you talk shit.

My point is in this day and age, it's ridiculous that any group of workers, let alone a professional body is allowed to go on strike. Try going "on strike" in the private sector and see if you have a job to come back to the next day. Asking for guaranteed wage increases during a recession when people have lost jobs and when the HST referendum has put the province in a hole is not going to garner a lot of support IMO.

[MR_BIGGS]

This is from my friend who is a teacher:

She just started at a new school as a full time i think after being a sub for many years. Her classroom has no furniture or books.

In the school I'm in now we are just waiting for three to retire so we can do something good in there. By the time they do retire all our ideas and passion will be spent. It's just a sad state of affairs...ie me and having no furniture or books...school board response? We will get u furniture to make it a functioning classroom but it won't be what you need...as for books...sol. When they have the right furniture meaning age appropriate desks and chairs, we will get them but no promises. We have two smart boards in our school ready to be put up...can't cause board won't pay to put them up and we aren't allowed to cross unions and do it ourself. I want bargaining to address the poor functioning of schools and it's resources. It wont. Instead if my friend dies I can take two weeks off work paid

Although she wants a higher salary, she'd rather have people walk through the school and see the scraps they are working with.

[will068]

Originally Posted by Jermyzy

My point is in this day and age, it's ridiculous that any group of workers, let alone a professional body is allowed to go on strike. Try going "on strike" in the private sector and see if you have a job to come back to the next day. Asking for guaranteed wage increases during a recession when people have lost jobs and when the HST referendum has put the province in a hole is not going to garner a lot of support IMO.

If you exploit more money from your employers, why not ? It's business. At the end of the day, you try to bring home as much $$$ as you can.

[Tapioca]

Teachers start out making 40K a year and top out at around 80K. (after 25+ years)

I'd be curious to see what RS thinks they should be paid. 35K? 50K?

[snowball]

Originally Posted by UFO

I think that's the problem with teachers, at least in BC. The perks attract the good teachers, and the average joe schmoe who shouldn't be a teacher in the first place. There are a LOT of crappy teachers in the system, those who don't really care about the education of the children, but have taken on the profession because of its perks (and there are many of them as listed) and see teaching as just another job, putting in the bare minimum just to get by. These teachers are clogging up the system and preventing those who are passionate about teaching from doing the job which they love. These are the teachers who are unable to handle class sizes larger than 25 because they are unable/unwilling to put in the extra time and effort for the betterment of the children as a part of their job responsibility.

You can argue that there are these types of people in any field, but it seemed like when I was in university, teaching was the fall back plan of many who didn't know what to do with their useless bachelor's degree after graduation. At the other end of the spectrum, if retirement aged teachers don't have to retire by a certain age, this would also discourages cycling of young teachers into the system. Instead the union protects these seniors who often times are so jaded and tired of teaching that they are there just to babysit and read essentially, and these are the same teachers that get paid the most due to seniority.

If teachers were held more accountable, administrators had the ability to hire/fire based on performance, then everything would look much different. The union will never let this happen obviously, which brings us back to square one.

My views may be biased as my wife was a teacher by training but has given up on getting a steady position after being on the substitute list for 6 years, half of those years getting calls once or twice a week to work (and many times just for a morning or afternoon)--we all got bills to pay right? I've also known acquaintances and friends who have entered the field and were really not the teacher type of personalities.

Any classroom whether run by a passionate teacher or a joe schmoe can be improved by reduced class sizes.

There are classes with with 28-29 kids and 5 of them might have IEPs and special needs. That's a lot to handle regardless of the teacher. But it is true that there are too many teachers there only for an easy pay check and don't really care about the students.

[dignatas]

Originally Posted by Gatorade

Any classroom whether run by a passionate teacher or a joe schmoe can be improved by reduced class sizes.

There are classes with with 28-29 kids and 5 of them might have IEPs and special needs. That's a lot to handle regardless of the teacher. But it is true that there are too many teachers there only for an easy pay check and don't really care about the students.

my tourism teacher in richmond back in gr. 11 and 12 didn't give a damn about being in the school and teach. She just showed movies and made us do power points at the computer lab all the time and she only teach 6 out of 8 courses throughout the whole year! Easy easy paycheque and not giving a rats ass about students doing so well. I personally think it's too easy to be a teacher and get such big fat cheques.

[UFO]

Originally Posted by Gatorade

Any classroom whether run by a passionate teacher or a joe schmoe can be improved by reduced class sizes.

Not doubting that at all. It would be even easier to run a classroom with 20 kids, 15 even. But the argument is round about. Want smaller class sizes, need to hire more teachers, need more money to pay more teachers, money needs to come from somewhere. The union seems to be asking for more and more money for its members, without addressing the fact of where this money has to come from. Unions (not just BCTF) really should have campaigned HARD to their members to vote to keep the HST and give themselves the best chance to get what they want. Having the $3B hole from voting HST out essentially gives the government the excuse they need to tell the unions to F off.

If teachers want a reduced and more easily manageable workload with smaller class sizes, then they need to be prepared to be paid less. In what other industry can anybody make a successful pitch to do less work and be paid the same or more?

Using the "think about what's best for the children" line to try and garner sympathy for the cause is pretty weak IMO given the state of the economy and situation these days.

[Anjew]

Originally Posted by dignatas

my tourism teacher in richmond back in gr. 11 and 12 didn't give a damn about being in the school and teach. She just showed movies and made us do power points at the computer lab all the time and she only teach 6 out of 8 courses throughout the whole year! Easy easy paycheque and not giving a rats ass about students doing so well. I personally think it's too easy to be a teacher and get such big fat cheques.

thats poor management by the school imo...

[RabidRat]

Originally Posted by MR_BIGGS

This is from my friend who is a teacher:

She just started at a new school as a full time i think after being a sub for many years. Her classroom has no furniture or books.



Although she wants a higher salary, she'd rather have people walk through the school and see the scraps they are working with.

Geez. Which area is this school in?

[drunkrussian]

Originally Posted by Tapioca

Teachers start out making 40K a year and top out at around 80K. (after 25+ years)

I'd be curious to see what RS thinks they should be paid. 35K? 50K?

thats a starting pay of 40k for 10 months of work. thats a LOT. they are simply not underpaid, i just dont buy it. the average business graduate starts at 40k for 12 months and unpaid overtime
Posted via RS Mobile

[twitchyzero]

^i'd argue teachers are underpaid
if you step back and look at the big picture, they are such a huge influence on the future generations

they should start at least with 50k

and 40k is if you find full-time...not 6am on-call 2 days a week subbing

[Tapioca]

Originally Posted by drunkrussian

thats a starting pay of 40k for 10 months of work. thats a LOT. they are simply not underpaid, i just dont buy it. the average business graduate starts at 40k for 12 months and unpaid overtime
Posted via RS Mobile

When teachers coach teams or sponsor clubs after classes are finished, that's unpaid time.

I personally don't think that a person in business is any more important to society than a teacher is just because they work longer hours for the same pay. And the business graduate has a higher career trajectory than a teacher does unless the teacher leaves the union and goes into administration. A person in business can easily make 6 figures in 5 years.

[Ch28]

Originally Posted by Tapioca

Teachers start out making 40K a year and top out at around 80K. (after 25+ years)

I'd be curious to see what RS thinks they should be paid. 35K? 50K?

Originally Posted by drunkrussian

thats a starting pay of 40k for 10 months of work. thats a LOT. they are simply not underpaid, i just dont buy it. the average business graduate starts at 40k for 12 months and unpaid overtime
Posted via RS Mobile

They're underpaid.

They have to spend time outside of regular work hours to properly plan a good teaching curriculum. That doesn't even include the time spent off work marking papers, hw, projects etc. They don't just leave work and forget about it until the next morning because a lot of what they do gets brought home.

High school kids are at the phase where they're the easiest to influence. Having GOOD teachers that are being paid a relatively good amount of salary equals happy teachers which are more likely to bring a positive attitude to school and their student's lives.

[Nocardia]

Originally Posted by Ch28

They're underpaid.

They have to spend time outside of regular work hours to properly plan a good teaching curriculum. That doesn't even include the time spent off work marking papers, hw, projects etc. They don't just leave work and forget about it until the next morning because a lot of what they do gets brought home.

High school kids are at the phase where they're the easiest to influence. Having GOOD teachers that are being paid a relatively good amount of salary equals happy teachers which are more likely to bring a positive attitude to school and their student's lives.

Everyone is underpaid.
We get it, they influence the future and spend time at home doing things.
Show me a profession that doesn't spend time outside work hours getting ready for the next day. It's supposed to be a profession, do you think all these teachers didn't know what they were getting into prior to starting their jobs?
I personally believe 50k is a good wage for 10 months of work (+vacation days). I understand it is extremely difficult to find a full time job that pays this wage but in my opinion I think they make decent money for the job and should NOT be getting 12% every 4 years with guaranteed COLA (ridiculous, my union signed a new contact that has 0 wage increases). It is a difficult time for everyone, spending more on tools that make people more effective is a higher priority.


Sorry to rant but it is a sensitive topic to all.

[Death2Theft]

No more 12% after 25 years to adjust for inflation or anything?

Originally Posted by Tapioca

Teachers start out making 40K a year and top out at around 80K. (after 25+ years)

I'd be curious to see what RS thinks they should be paid. 35K? 50K?

[melloman]

I'm sorry but teachers bitch and complain ALOT these days.
In the economy right now, they should be happy to have a fucking job. Especially now that by 2013 HST will be gone and BC just threw itself into a $1.6 billion debt. I find it funny how they keep wanting more and more, yet are kids marks going up? Are we getting "smaller" or "better" people for our future generations.

Just like with any job, there's a reason to raise wages, not just because "I want more money." I figure if teachers want more money and considering a part of it comes from our taxes, they should show us WHY they DESERVE more money.

Only because STRIKING EVERY 2 YEARS is getting REALLY annoying.

[taylor192]

Originally Posted by Ch28

They're underpaid.

They have to spend time outside of regular work hours to properly plan a good teaching curriculum. That doesn't even include the time spent off work marking papers, hw, projects etc. They don't just leave work and forget about it until the next morning because a lot of what they do gets brought home.

High school kids are at the phase where they're the easiest to influence. Having GOOD teachers that are being paid a relatively good amount of salary equals happy teachers which are more likely to bring a positive attitude to school and their student's lives.

The market decides what they are paid, and right now they are overpaid as there is an abundance of teachers in BC.

I want GOOD teachers too, yet the union doesn't allow this with its tenure rules. Bad teachers cannot be fired, they are just moved around.

If you really wanted GOOD teachers you'd let the market set salaries and abolish collective bargaining. That way GOOD teachers can command higher salaries, and bad teachers would be paid less or let go.

[taylor192]

Originally Posted by Gatorade

Any classroom whether run by a passionate teacher or a joe schmoe can be improved by reduced class sizes.

Bandaid solutions suck, any good teacher will tell you that.

Fire bad teachers, hire good teachers at less from the pool of available teachers looking for work. Problem solved if the union and collective bargaining was thrown out.

[taylor192]

Originally Posted by Tapioca

When teachers coach teams or sponsor clubs after classes are finished, that's unpaid time.

My friend's father coached my little league baseball team, for free. Why? Cause he enjoyed baseball.

If the teachers don't want to do it, GTFO and let a passionate parent do it instead.

[TouringTeg]

Not a good profession to go in if you want to live in BC. It is very competitive and like was posted there are too many teachers. You can spend years on the on call list before getting a shot at a full time position (at least here in Victoria). If you are willing to go to a remote town you may have a better shot.