BC teachers issue strike notice

[UFO]

Originally Posted by taylor192

The market decides what they are paid, and right now they are overpaid as there is an abundance of teachers in BC.

I want GOOD teachers too, yet the union doesn't allow this with its tenure rules. Bad teachers cannot be fired, they are just moved around.

If you really wanted GOOD teachers you'd let the market set salaries and abolish collective bargaining. That way GOOD teachers can command higher salaries, and bad teachers would be paid less or let go.

+1 to all of the above. If the profession was truly underpaid, nobody would be lining up to do it.

If teachers really feel underpaid for the amount of time and work needed to put in, then they could just as easily have found another profession that did not require those extra volunteer hours. Judging by the abundance of 'trained' teachers without a job and halfassed teachers in the system, who fully understand the workload prior to signing up but also understand all the perks of being a teacher, I would say they are not underpaid at all.

I appreciate and am not trying to downplay the workload of the teachers themselves. But this sense of entitlement that the union is spewing out is getting old, and they are essentially holding the government hostage with the children as collateral.

[iEatClams]

^^ I have no beef with the unions for trying to get raise increases.

I believe in trying to protect the middle class and not letting corporations drive down wages and working standards and screwing people just so the rich can get richer. It's difficult for the poor and lower class to succeed.

We shouldn't be competing with newly developed or third world countries. Which is why im not a big fan of corporations (even though i made shiet load of money off of stocks).

The only beef i have with unions is that they protect BAD workers.

Examples: cops screw up, gets suspended with pay, teachers that cant teach shiet or teachers that harass students do not get reprimanded or fired at all.

This is the only thing i have against unions. and honestly once you've worked quite a bit in different industries, you are glad there's organizations out there trying to protect your wages, cause if corporations can find a way to pay u $10 an hour, they would.

[iEatClams]

Originally Posted by Culverin

• pretty damned good job security
• collective bargaining
• 12% every 4 years
• guaranteed cost of living adjustment
• 2 months off

If you work in the private sector, you'll see how out of control that list is.
How many of those 5 items do you think we get in the private sector.
I'd give my left testicle for 2 of those items.

hmm. shouldn't this be one of the goals of our society? why the FUCK are we trying to bring down wages and the standard of living for the average person?

How many of us want to not have raises? Yes lets have inflation reduce our purchasing power.

Our government is letting us down by reducing the real wages of the middle class.

Sure the average income of CEOs and the rich have gone up significantly, but for the average person the real wages have barely kept up with inflation.

The only problem with teachers is that they dont have a great incentive program to reward great teachers and poor and under-performing ones do not get disciplined for their poor behaviours.

[iEatClams]

Originally Posted by UFO

There are a LOT of crappy teachers in the system, those who don't really care about the education of the children, but have taken on the profession because of its perks (and there are many of them as listed) and see teaching as just another job, putting in the bare minimum just to get by. These teachers are clogging up the system and preventing those who are passionate about teaching from doing the job which they love. These are the teachers who are unable to handle class sizes larger than 25 because they are unable/unwilling to put in the extra time and effort for the betterment of the children as a part of their job responsibility.

This is what i hate about the unions, cause they wont allow it, but this main issue here, if fixed, can help society immensely.

Education is so important and teachers that can engage and motivate students can improve our society.

[dbaz]

Originally Posted by Culverin

• pretty damned good job security
• collective bargaining
• 12% every 4 years
• guaranteed cost of living adjustment
• 2 months off

If you work in the private sector, you'll see how out of control that list is.
How many of those 5 items do you think we get in the private sector.
I'd give my left testicle for 2 of those items.

my mom was a teacher. worked in richmond, lived in richmond. gets paid from 9-5. at school mon-fri from 7-7. + extra unpaid hours marking and calling parents to try to help their children. few hours on the weekend to even spend with her children because she had to mark, create curriculum or change it because they government wanted to add a 15minute fitness time. you can look at your 5 items but they just cover the reality of the job which is maany unpaid hours and unappreciated work.

[darkfroggy]

Honestly, there's no clear answer to this. There are good, underpaid teachers and there are bad, overpaid teachers.

I will say this: If you think the education system is fine as-is, you're an idiot.

[goo3]

Originally Posted by azndude69

hmm. shouldn't this be one of the goals of our society? why the FUCK are we trying to bring down wages and the standard of living for the average person?

Their wages are coming from taxes. Fair is OK. Being soft during negotiations is not (ie stuff like defined benefit pensions).

[carisear]

Originally Posted by dbaz

my mom was a teacher. worked in richmond, lived in richmond. gets paid from 9-5. at school mon-fri from 7-7. + extra unpaid hours marking and calling parents to try to help their children. few hours on the weekend to even spend with her children because she had to mark, create curriculum or change it because they government wanted to add a 15minute fitness time. you can look at your 5 items but they just cover the reality of the job which is maany unpaid hours and unappreciated work.

hmm.

my XXX was a YYY. Worked in ZZZ, lived in in ZZZ. gets paid from 9-5, worked 7-7 and weekends. The boss had a change in directive, so person XXX had to do soooooo much more work. Not only that, but they had to work 12 whole months out of the year, with only the legally required 2 weeks vacation. Person XXX worked so many unpaid hours, and did unappreciated work.

[highfive]

It's not about bringing down wages or giving higher salaries. If a good teacher can really teach, I'm all for paying 6 figures for his/her salary. But how many of us that has gone through high school and seen those lazy ass teachers just sit around and practically do nothing? Why are we overpaying that person and underpaying the good teacher? It's the unions, the collective bargaining agreement doesn't allow any competition among the teachers. Good teachers should get paid more. Bad teachers should get paid less.

[Jermyzy]

Originally Posted by dbaz

my mom was a teacher. worked in richmond, lived in richmond. gets paid from 9-5. at school mon-fri from 7-7. + extra unpaid hours marking and calling parents to try to help their children. few hours on the weekend to even spend with her children because she had to mark, create curriculum or change it because they government wanted to add a 15minute fitness time. you can look at your 5 items but they just cover the reality of the job which is maany unpaid hours and unappreciated work.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't teachers a salaried profession (e.g. not paid an hourly wage). My understanding, as a salaried professional you are paid a set amount per year to perform a set job (I would consider teaching,marking, and designing curriculum as part of the job description) regardless of hours worked (less or more)

[taylor192]

Originally Posted by dbaz:7566517

my mom was a teacher. worked in richmond, lived in richmond. gets paid from 9-5. at school mon-fri from 7-7. + extra unpaid hours marking and calling parents to try to help their children. few hours on the weekend to even spend with her children because she had to mark, create curriculum or change it because they government wanted to add a 15minute fitness time. you can look at your 5 items but they just cover the reality of the job which is maany unpaid hours and unappreciated work.

My cousins are teachers, according to their Facebook pages they had a fantastic summer spending most days on the lake.

The job is what you make of it, your mom did a lot, yet that's not the average teacher, nor are my cousins the average teacher.

[taylor192]

Originally Posted by azndude69:7566500

The only problem with teachers is that they dont have a great incentive program to reward great teachers and poor and under-performing ones do not get disciplined for their poor behaviours.

This isn't just a problem with teachers, its every union that had the ability to collectively bargain. good employees never benefit from collective bargaining as they could readily command more individually.

[dbaz]

These are the people who teach you, make you what you are in the future. They should make more based on that alone its that simple. Not everyone can be a teacher, not everyone has the ability to help those exceed. But those who can deserve to make more then they currently do.
I realize there are shitty teachers and they should be dealt with properly. But because of some shitty teachers you cant rule them all bad and forget about those who actually care and help so many kids.
You wouldn't have school sports, you wouldn't have recess unless these people really cared to sacrifice time they aren't actually suppose to be getting paid for or are considered their own breaks. Field trips aren't a requirement and neither is them giving you extra help on your homework. The worst is most of you guys take this stuff for granted.
They don't get much coverage for the items they have to buy so children can learn that the school board wont refund because the school board and the government are shit. These extra charges include new resource books to update curriculum, items for the class that are needed that no one will supply (including furniture), pens/pencils etc. for parents who believe school is a place where everything is paid for their kid.
Maybe some of you guys just don't give a shit about learning and take it for granted that people should waste 12-15 hrs a because they have a salary. These professions are key to the future. Yet people want to take away their stuff and roast them.

[MG1]

dbaz, you have to understand that this is RS, it's a bunch of guys who spew shit because they can.

School is something everyone has gone through, so everyone thinks they are an expert. I am a parent of three kids who have gone through the educational system and although the system is not perfect, there are a lot of good teachers out there. As in any profession, it's always the bad ones that people remember.

You ask any parent who have had their children in schools for a while and most of them are supportive of the teachers in their schools. They know how difficult it is to teach the children of today. There was a comment made here about 40+ kids in other countries....... um, the kids in those countries are not like the kids here. Not by a long shot.

In NA, we have kids who come to school with little to no skills. It used to be that children could read by the age of three. All my children did, btw. That was normal. Now, they show up not knowing how to tie their shoes or know how to spell their name in Kindergarten. Add to that, the behaviour kids, the kids with ADD, ADHD, ODD, Fetal Alcohol Syndrome, sexually, mentally, and physically abused kids, yada yada yada.

You know which parents complain about the schools and teachers the most? The ones with kids who are the worst behaved in the school. Gee, I wonder why? The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

My wife and I were heavily involved in the PAC (Parent Advisory Council), while our three children were in the system. We were involved in all three levels, local, district, and provincial. It's an eye opener to say the least. The ministry, the school board, the administration, the union, and finally, the teachers. It's not as plain and simple as it looks. There's a lot of stuff that goes on in the background.

On a side note, all teachers (with the exception of two, maybe three people) in BC must belong to the BCTF in order to teach. Doesn't matter if you are in a private or public school. There are some teachers out there who don't support the union, but not many go against the directives of the union. If any of you have gone to union meetings of any kind you know what that's like. Get kicked out of the union and there goes your career in BC, and most likely anywhere else in Canada.

Every time bargaining comes up, teachers cringe. Teacher bashing in September is like clockwork with the media. Hopefully, it won't drag out and things can get back to normal.

[Death2Theft]

If they let the kids grade the teachers on their teaching I bet alot of changes would happen real quick.

[snowball]

Originally Posted by Death2Theft

If they let the kids grade the teachers on their teaching I bet alot of changes would happen real quick.

And there is constant discussion that goes on about how you "evaluate" teachers. What makes a good teacher? the teacher that is able to ensure that his or her students will get high provincial exam marks but no life skills or ambitions? What about the teacher that focuses on the opposite and gives students hope where there would be none. Or maybe the teacher that teaches more than the curriculum asks for which could benefit the students greatly but won't be tested on? Do we teach to the exam or are exams even necessary?

Too many questions and you couldn't really evaluate the average teacher while you're in school, how do you know the impact of a teacher until later in life? what do students know about ministry standards and IRPs? and what is the impact of students that just have a personal vendetta against a certain teacher. I had lots of teachers whose attitudes I hated but could still teach very well.

[taylor192]

Originally Posted by dbaz:7567746

These are the people who teach you, make you what you are in the future. They should make more based on that alone its that simple. Not everyone can be a teacher, not everyone has the ability to help those exceed. But those who can deserve to make more then they currently do.

Its not that simple, the fact you think it is shows just how badly your teachers failed teaching you. BC has an excess of teachers, increasing salaries is only going to draw more people into the profession chasing the almighty dollar without a system to filter the good from the bad.

The kind of good teacher that wants to inspire the next great young minds will become a teacher regardless of the salary.

Also if you haven't noticed we're in a bit of a recession with high unemployment, throwing money at this problem is only going to make it worse by attracting people who shouldn't be teachers to a well paid job with great benefits.

Originally Posted by dbaz:7567746

They don't get much coverage for the items they have to buy so children can learn that the school board wont refund because the school board and the government are shit. These extra charges include new resource books to update curriculum, items for the class that are needed that no one will supply (including furniture), pens/pencils etc. for parents who believe school is a place where everything is paid for their kid.

This is a provincial issue, not a union issue. Ontario dealt with this by incorporating into the provincial education system that every school will provide all required resources for every class offered. CTV did a special on 6 different teachers from different provinces to highlight the difference. Maybe if more people watched the news they'd be informed.

That said, I still think they are over paid in BC and reducing salaries would solve the problems the union has.

[MG1]

Out of the ten provinces, where do BC teachers stand as far as wages go?

This in a province where cost of living is high.

[dbaz]

Like i said i realize some teachers aren't the greatest. Maybe if the union stepped up to the table and offered an option to deal with under performing teachers it would be more appealing to not only you but parents. But its a union so that's never going to happen. If you are going to complain about a recession and unemployment why don't you look at real companies that can help with that but prefer cheap overseas labor. I'm sure if they weren't hellbent at finding ways for larger and larger profits they could help out more with fixing the recession. You know create jobs by opening a factory here and not creating record profits. Guess I'm not the only who had my teacher fail to teach me something

[falcon]

Originally Posted by MG1

On a side note, all teachers (with the exception of two, maybe three people) in BC must belong to the BCTF in order to teach. Doesn't matter if you are in a private or public school. There are some teachers out there who don't support the union, but not many go against the directives of the union. If any of you have gone to union meetings of any kind you know what that's like. Get kicked out of the union and there goes your career in BC, and most likely anywhere else in Canada.

Just so were clear here your last statement is not true. I went to a private school and the majority of the teachers were not in the union. I remember having to go to school in the big strike back in the early 2000`s because our teachers actually showed up for work. This was the same in Elementary and High School.

[MG1]

Originally Posted by falcon

Just so were clear here your last statement is not true. I went to a private school and the majority of the teachers were not in the union. I remember having to go to school in the big strike back in the early 2000`s because our teachers actually showed up for work. This was the same in Elementary and High School.

Well, back then, every district bargained locally. Langley teachers would go on strike, while Surrey teachers would be working.

Private schools negotiate on their own. Overall, they make less.


EDIT: I just checked regarding private school teachers. Since they negotiate on their own, they may not have to be in the BCTF. I stand corrected. My bad. I'm sure they still have to be part of the BC College of Teachers.

[Jermyzy]

Originally Posted by MG1

Out of the ten provinces, where do BC teachers stand as far as wages go?

This in a province where cost of living is high.

You could say that for many professions...

[taylor192]

Originally Posted by MG1:7567903

Out of the ten provinces, where do BC teachers stand as far as wages go?

This in a province where cost of living is high.

Moot point. I make less as a software developer in Vancouver than in Ottawa, cause Ottawa has a much larger high tech market and more competition for jobs.

My old managers son made 50% more working at Canadian Tire in Calgary than in Ottawa, cause Alberta was desperate for workers.

There are a lot of out of work teachers in BC so obviously the high cost of living is not a factor, again your point is moot.

[MG1]

If BC teachers were in the top five and they were asking for more, then who gives a flying fuck. If they were dead last or in the bottom five, then it's a different story. They just want what's fair.

BTW, what's up with you man? You have a hate on for teachers? Did one molest you or something?

[taylor192]

Originally Posted by dbaz:7567909

Like i said i realize some teachers aren't the greatest. Maybe if the union stepped up to the table and offered an option to deal with under performing teachers it would be more appealing to not only you but parents. But its a union so that's never going to happen. If you are going to complain about a recession and unemployment why don't you look at real companies that can help with that but prefer cheap overseas labor. I'm sure if they weren't hellbent at finding ways for larger and larger profits they could help out more with fixing the recession. You know create jobs by opening a factory here and not creating record profits. Guess I'm not the only who had my teacher fail to teach me something

Dude, you're an idiot. Take a basic economics course before you start lecturing how to fix a recession.

Like you said, the union will not back down on collective bargaining so why should we give into any off the teachers demand?

As for maximizing profits, you're arguing the dumb "main" street vs "wall" street crap that uneducated people do not understand. My RRSPs are invested in wall street and need to make 7-8% or else I won't meet my retirement goals and will sell their stock to find a better deal. Our economy averages 2-3% GDP increases, so please tell me how I get 7-8% from 2-3%? Come on, don't let down your elementary school math teacher, show me the math that makes this work.

You cannot. Now stuff it and stay on topic. Teachers are overpaid and there's no more money for raises.