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Vancouver Off-Topic / Current EventsThe off-topic forum for Vancouver, funnies, non-auto centered discussions, WORK SAFE. While the rules are more relaxed here, there are still rules. Please refer to sticky thread in this forum.
I only answer to my username, my real name is Irrelevant!
Join Date: Oct 2002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesInCharge
What harm was he going to do with all those cops around... the only civilian that might have been hurt would be some idiot invading his personal space by coming up for a close camera shot.
He came close to many civilians during his run down Times Square if you watch the videos there were some civilians pressed up against a building with him hopping around them with knife in hand and several other encounters. According to witnesses he was waving the knife around close to peoples heads, certainly fear may have exaggerated these claims but that doesn't matter he was erratic and threatening with a weapon as well as avoiding police pursuit.
The point is you have a crazy guy (i agree with you he's probably nuts, not sure but probably) hopping up and down in one of the biggest tourists spot in the world waving his knife around threatening people and ignoring police and their attempts to stop him (pepper spray, etc)
Certainly the police could have come up with other options, as you say, but that would increase chances for something to go wrong it would literally throw open the door to the unknown far more than it already is because it would require much more time to prepare and setup.
What if he does stab someone? what if he ends up going into the subway there's no way the police would be able to clear the area in time; what if he gets on a train?; what if we try to shoot him in the leg him and it doesn't work or even hits a civilian or other officer? (shooting the leg is just as dangerous as the torso but harder to hit btw due to all the veins) etc etc etc
they HAD to try and take him down (hell they've been trying) any longer as said would increase the variables too far.
quickly setting up an area to Corner him made sense, it largely took the risk to civilians out of the equation and it could potentially have ended peacefully, potentially, but the guy decided to lunge at police with his weapon and the police fired (sure we can't make it out in the videos but that's all we have to go on right now based on the police and witnesses), I don't think there's a "designated shooter" so its no surprise several officers likely pulled their triggers to protect themselves, coworkers, civilians if he were to get away.
Everyone on here knows I'm anti-police violence and I would prefer physical take downs over shooting etc etc but even I don't find anything wrong with what happened here based on what we know.
Quote:
He may have done something before but at that time you'd have to have a crystal ball to know he was going to harm someone. Do you own such an object?
Exactly you'd have to have a crystal ball to know what was going to happen next that means ANYTHING could happen next; he could have attacked a civilian; he could have fallen down and let himself be arrested; he could have gotten away; he could have gotten into a far riskier situation for civilians/police; etc etc etc so lets try and cut out most of the possibilities by cornering him (makes sense no? does to me) leaving largely 2 options give up or attack and he opted for attack...
I only answer to my username, my real name is Irrelevant!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesInCharge
I would round up all criminal to work on isolated farms to feed themselves+ until they do their time. If they dont want to work they can starve to death.
That's actually how some Scandinavian/European prisons do it the lifers get put on an island and they work on farms and make tools and fish etc in attempts to rehabilitate them; there are staff and guards on hand of course.
they aren't denied food either if their crops go sour mind you and they do get paid.
Its a nice idea really and they've found that it works for them
Quote:
Originally Posted by EuterVanWasser
Hmm, have to say I'm with JD on this one. I've always understood police forces use standard NATO calibre hollow-point (9x17?). Intent is they mushroom out and lodge inside the target. Obviously shooting in cities, etc, they have to be careful of through-and-through wounds where the bullet ends up hitting dumb-asses standing in behind the target with their IPhones out.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but general infantry in armed forces use full metal jackets ~ these are designed to pass right through the target with the intent not to kill, but to disable and take the opponent out of battle.
Isn't that exactly what ulic said? except he added the different effects and levels of the shockwave of the ammunitions?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaguar604
A knife in close quarters is the worst thing you can encounter.
If someone comes at you with a knife, run the fuck away.
exactly and that's why I find it odd how people dismiss why the DTES was rated the worse "ghetto" in North America for violence (due to stabbings/knife attacks) because american cities had gun violence over knife
Guys, you're just feeding the troll. He wants to be heard, but he doesn't want to hear anything.
I know I'm guilty of it too, but this is less of a discussion and more of a "White Americans executing minorities" rant by Arash.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by MG1
She taught me right from wrong and always told me to stay positive and help others no matter how small the deed - that helping others gives us meaning to carry on. The sun is out today and it's a new day. Life is good. I just needed a slap in the face.
A lot of my feelings on this situation has been said already but basically police shoot first and ask questions later with impunity. You guys are not black or Latino minorities living in the U.S. to know the number of unjustified killings that goes on there all the time, even in custody, with no consequences for the police.
Im not saying all police men are bad, but the way the system is setup it encourages trigger happy cops to get away with murder.
It even happens in our own town.
This overall puts more fear into citizens when a police state needs to intimidate its citizens... like in occupy movements.
With New Yorks long standing policing history, we see they still haven't implemented such simple techniques like the following video by using a large fork to pin a suspect down.
In my LiveLeak search I also came across this video to further shame U.S. policing tactics.
Police Shoot Knife-Wielding Man In Wheelchair - shots @ 0:49
p.s. I still dont buy into hostages being taken in these situations with the rush to stopping the suspect right away by ambushing and opening fire for not complying.
Last edited by CharlesInCharge; 08-13-2012 at 12:15 AM.
Reason: Added more content
Plain and simple. If you hold a fucking 11" knife and you're not obeying orders from the police. That's problem number 1. If you hold a 11" knife with signs of aggression. That's problem number 2. You do all that in Times Square where lots of people are around. You will get shot by the police.
I can't find the video, but remember the one with some brown dude thinking he's super human and started to fight the police while he was getting shot.
Imagine that happened, the guy got shot but he end up stabbing and killing the police officer. The guy didn't die, he ends up in a mental hospital. The police officer who end up dying. Where is your preserving life now?
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in the first video that bystander and officer could have been killed but if you notice the officers didn't have a gun except for the "sergeant" who appeared later
in the 2nd one you dont see the whole situation but apparently the officers had used pepper spray and bean bag bullets to try and take the guy down first; 1 officer was stabbed as well
the man in the wheelchair survived (he wasn't just waving his knife around either he was vandalising cars and public property)
Hmm, have to say I'm with JD on this one. I've always understood police forces use standard NATO calibre hollow-point (9x17?). Intent is they mushroom out and lodge inside the target. Obviously shooting in cities, etc, they have to be careful of through-and-through wounds where the bullet ends up hitting dumb-asses standing in behind the target with their IPhones out.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but general infantry in armed forces use full metal jackets ~ these are designed to pass right through the target with the intent not to kill, but to disable and take the opponent out of battle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDął
Dafuq did I just read?
Based on this post I'm going to guess you don't even have your RPAL let alone any experience with different classes of firearms and ammunition. BRB sharpening my bullets so they travel faster and make a bigger brain impacting shockwave.
i have my RPAL. I own a bushmaster m4 variant.
I've fired many handguns, and firearms.
i've fired the c7, c6, c9.
AND i have a personal fascination with guns. not just guns. but bullets, and how they work.
it's not the gun that really matters, it's the bullet you use. the gun is just a delivery system for the actual weapon.
I never said sharpening my bullets. i said military bullets are sharper, and that they travel faster.
From left, 9mm, .45 ACP, M855 'Green Tip' and M80 bullets
uh it's pretty obvious that the 9mm (standard cop bullet, except the one being shown isnt a hollowpoint, but it's the same size), is more rounded and fatter than the m855 (5.56mm NATO), and M80 (7.62 NATO).
the bullets are sharper so they can penetrate armor. cuz you know, like physics? sharper objects penetrate things better?
you know how much faster the rifle rounds travel vs a 9mm?
vs
you see the feet per second? yeah, rifle rounds travel 2-3x faster.
you also see the ballistics? the first one showing pistol rounds, refer to the first two hollow point 9mm ballistics. it goes out to 12 inches.
second pic 12inches is the yellow line, 30cm.
refer to the 5.56mm bullets, they fragment, causing way more harm.
here's a more detailed view:
M855 5.56 round.
yeah
cop rounds are hollow point, not designed to KILL people. they're designed to mushroom, causing the victim to absorb all of the kinetic energy, so that they will be incapacitated.
incapacitated doesn't mean KILL. the goal of cop bullets are to put them out of action, while not harming anyone else.
as for the shock-wave, it's called hydrostatic shock Hydrostatic shock - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"There is scientific evidence that hydrostatic shock can produce remote neural damage and produce incapacitation more quickly than blood loss effects."
"Human autopsy results have demonstrated brain hemorrhaging from fatal hits to the chest, including cases with handgun bullets."
"Hydraulic shock disrupts vital organs, short-circuiting the nervous system for clean, quick kills."
blood pressure spike to the brain, insta-death.
the goal of 5.56 military rounds is to fuck you up bad. make you bleed for as long as possible, and causing your team grief and resources trying to patch you up and save you, but you'll probably just bleed to death. It's a blow to the morale to watch someone painfully bleed to death.
if you get hit with a 7.62 in the chest, it'll fuckin go right through your body armor, tumble a bit and fly right out your back. you'll be knocked the fuck down just because it's a huge round, and you'll fucking die from hydrostatic shock. that's fact man.
i don't know why you guys are so quick to attack.
you don't think in the 100's of years we've had guns, people have invented crazier bullets that kill better?
if you read any military reports about the 5.56 not killing as effectively and poor performance in recent afghan/iraq wars, it's because the 5.56 was designed back in the vietnam era
where fire fights on average were a bit further away, at an average distance of which the bullet would tumble and fragment when it hit the enemy.
now we use the same round, but the average fire fight is something crazy like 70m close.
the bullets are still travelling really fast and fragment after they exit. they were not designed to NOT kill. they were just designed for further range combat. obviously the military has fixed this by introducing new experimental rounds and modifying current rounds to be more "efficient" at closer ranges.
all gun owners should have intimate knowledge of the round they use. you can have the nicest gun in the world, but if your round is shit, it's not gonna do what you intend it to.
i spend hours researching the best round to use for home defence, because most the 5.56 rounds available in stores are not designed to fragment when they hit the target. which would be pointless if i ever had to use it for home defence.
also for you handgun owners, you can actually buy hollow points, just special order them and get them delivered to your nearest gunsmith.
i don't need to argue, that i know what i'm talking about. i just don't like it when people spread misinformation about firearms and how they're used.
Last edited by Ulic Qel-Droma; 08-13-2012 at 12:24 AM.
She taught me right from wrong and always told me to stay positive and help others no matter how small the deed - that helping others gives us meaning to carry on. The sun is out today and it's a new day. Life is good. I just needed a slap in the face.
You want to play politics, enter; building 7 collapse and wtc buildings... genocide of millions of people in the last decades.
The Neda murder was a CIA operation and these video really show nothing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by highfive
Imagine that happened, the guy got shot but he end up stabbing and killing the police officer. The guy didn't die, he ends up in a mental hospital. The police officer who end up dying. Where is your preserving life now?
Whats the point of using a gun if your not going to keep your distance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by StylinRed
in the 2nd one you dont see the whole situation but apparently the officers had used pepper spray and bean bag bullets to try and take the guy down first; 1 officer was stabbed as well
the man in the wheelchair survived (he wasn't just waving his knife around either he was vandalising cars and public property)
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Com on Bastard those are propaganda pieces ye can't say user video is inadequate for judging officers and then using user videos to condemn other officers
There's no doubt that there are violent police everywhere but what gets more attention are the cases closer to home hell im glad we dont have a police force like they do in South Korea!
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesInCharge
You want to play politics, enter; building 7 collapse and wtc buildings... genocide of millions of people in the last decades.
The Neda murder was a CIA operation and these video really show nothing.
Whats the point of using a gun if your not going to keep your distance.
But he could have died for something stupid.
yes he could have and so could the officer who was stabbed obviously the officer must have tried getting in close and subduing him to have gotten stabbed
the police investigation committee had also suggested more training in dealing with individuals with mental conditions as well as people stuck in wheelchairs so the police must have felt the situation could have been handled better but again they did try multiple methods to subdue him
Look at it this way, a criminal is riding a knife mounted bike on the street, rather then knock him over with a cop cruiser, you intentionally stand in front of him, shoot him dead and cry self defense. This is murder.
that's the worst example ever. It doesn't even remotely relate to the scenario that occurred...
Its the same, they planted themselves in-front of a nutter knife wielding man to shoot him if he doesnt stop rather then use other methods to knock him down successfully.
Quote:
Originally Posted by StylinRed
yes he could have and so could the officer who was stabbed obviously the officer must have tried getting in close and subduing him to have gotten stabbed
I think one can see the wheel chair guy throws something, probably the knife, to the ground toward the officers and then he gets shot. Its a weak throw and Im guessing a cops lied about getting stabbed to justify the shots.
Its the same, they planted themselves in-front of a nutter knife wielding man to shoot him if he doesnt stop rather then use other methods to knock him down successfully.
I think one can see the wheel chair guy throws something, probably the knife, to the ground toward the officers and then he gets shot. Its a weak throw and Im guessing a cops lied about getting stabbed to justify the shots.
Knock him down successfully? Have you ever been in a physical altercation or even played a competitive sport? Knocking down someone or taking someone down, unless they're a woman or a child, is a little more difficult than a tap from a distance. I sure as hell wouldn't get anywhere near someone wielding a knife.
On the same note, if he wanted to live all he had to do was put the knife down. That's a pretty fucking simple idea, "Hey.. do I really wanna fight 30 of these guys with guns with my knife? I guess not. Better put the knife down". If a person doesn't have that thought process they're better off not being in the general public anyhow
I didnt mean knockdown by a tackle but by other means.
You guys will have to excuse me from this thread as Ive made my points and will be spending my time on other productive things unless new information comes out.
I didnt mean knockdown by a tackle but by other means.
You guys will have to excuse me from this thread as Ive made my points and will be spending my time on other productive things unless new information comes out.
Who the fuck is a rash/charlesincharge and why is he a douche
Not sure if trolling, but Arash/CiC first had his shitbox 300ZX "bodykit" that he designed out of papier mache and hoped to sell to the masses for 10 grand a piece, not understanding that there's a very slim chance that anyone would buy it. Now he's posting anti-Western, anti-establishment propaganda, and making outlandish claims regarding public safety, feats that only RoboCop can accomplish, and Iran having a GREAT political track record.
Face it Arash, you say you're going to back down, but you never do. That's why I ripped you when the thread about your janky-ass body kit was still around. By the way, even if it does make it to production, good luck finding a buyer that wants a Z32 300ZX that looks like an Aston Martin One-77. Now you've gone and got yourself a case of the crazy, and it's not working.
I think CiC needs to go one on one with a psycho black man high on drugs with an 11" knife.... both will be equipped with the same weapon, better yet, have CiC be armed with a 9mm of his choice, BUT he has to stay 20 meters away (keeping distance), and see if he will be able to properly stop his threat by shooting the guy in the kneecaps....
You keep the distance to protect yourself.. in this case there was the public to be concerned about.. you keep a distance of 20 30 40 metres, who the hell is going to protect the public that is 5 10 15 metres away from the psycho?
The officer figured, due to his size and fighting skills, he could disarm a knife wielding aggressor.
To all the idiots out there who always say, "Why did the cops have to shoot him? He only had a (insert your choice of weapons here, i.e. knife, bat, club. whatever) he didn't have to be shot", you should look at the photos.
If an officer tells you to drop your weapon, just drop it. If you're a retard, stupid, on crack, mental or just "scared" ... too bad. No one deserves what this cop got for just doing his job.
This is vivid proof of how deadly people who are "only armed with a knife" can be. Some of the public think that officers should try to disarm someone armed with a knife but anyone who has had training in knife fighting will tell you even if you win, you are going to get cut.
Keep this in the back of your mind when confronting someone armed with an edged weapon.
I didint want to bump the thread but this news talk show did a piece on these recent killings which undoubtedly will be the only respectable source of dialogue of these events.
New news clip of the event http://www.wpix.com/news/wpix-ts-cop...,1381084.story
^ "They didn't use tasers, they used pepper spray. They tried to disarm the guy; he lunged at them with a knife. The cops shot to protect their lives and to make sure he didn't run off and kill other people."
"run off and kill other people", nice article, makes it sound like the suspect had killed someone already.
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Dafuq did I just read?
vs
