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Vancouver Off-Topic / Current EventsThe off-topic forum for Vancouver, funnies, non-auto centered discussions, WORK SAFE. While the rules are more relaxed here, there are still rules. Please refer to sticky thread in this forum.
I would have officers be a block ahead of this possible movements and only a small number tailing him, in civilian uniform (undercover) if possible.
(I wouldnt care if the cities traffic would have to come to a stop for a while, a human life is worth more then the surrounding people skipping lunch or arriving to their appointments on time)
If talking doesnt work I would then order bean bag or plastic bullet guns to be deployed on him, eventually bruising him so much from a distance that he'd tire out and give up from pain.
Perhaps that is what they were doing. Maybe they were killing time in order to wait for an officer with a rubber bullet gun to arrive on scene. However, the fact that the suspect charged at the officers with a deadly weapon forced their hands.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesInCharge
A basic strategy to rid mentally handycap (since you dont challenge a knife to a gun fight) people from the country, nice.
That's pure conjecture. There is no evidence that this man was mentally handicapped.
Am I missing something, where does it say he was mentally handicap? He could have been on a suicide mission for all we know - all you are doing is speculating. The cops reacted with the tools they had available (at the time) to subdue the situation with minimal impact / harm to the civilians around.
I'm all for preserving human life, but when that life is trying to take innocents with them they deserve what's coming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesInCharge
I would have officers be a block ahead of this possible movements and only a small number tailing him, in civilian uniform (undercover) if possible.
(I wouldnt care if the cities traffic would have to come to a stop for a while, a human life is worth more then the surrounding people skipping lunch or arriving to their appointments on time)
If talking doesnt work I would then order bean bag or plastic bullet guns to be deployed on him, eventually bruising him so much from a distance that he'd tire out and give up from pain.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lomac
However, the fact that the suspect charged at the officers with a deadly weapon forced their hands. Read my knife mounted bike analogy post again, it was a setup.
That's pure conjecture. There is no evidence that this man was mentally handicapped.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twstd_reality
Am I missing something, where does it say he was mentally handicap? He could have been on a suicide mission for all we know - all you are doing is speculating.
I dont know if its just me but it looks pretty crazy when you're hopping around New York city with a knife, disobeying tens of officers pointing guns.
Whether he was mental just that day or has been for all his life, his killing wasnt justified specially with 10+ shots to his body.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twstd_reality
The cops reacted with the tools they had available (at the time) to subdue the situation with minimal impact / harm to the civilians around.
What harm was he going to do with all those cops around... the only civilian that might have been hurt would be some idiot invading his personal space by coming up for a close camera shot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twstd_reality
I'm all for preserving human life, but when that life is trying to take innocents with them they deserve what's coming.
He may have done something before but at that time you'd have to have a crystal ball to know he was going to harm someone. Do you own such an object?
Last edited by CharlesInCharge; 08-12-2012 at 01:08 PM.
Reason: re-structured sentences
Based on this post I'm going to guess you don't even have your RPAL let alone any experience with different classes of firearms and ammunition. BRB sharpening my bullets so they travel faster and make a bigger brain impacting shockwave.
Hmm, have to say I'm with JD on this one. I've always understood police forces use standard NATO calibre hollow-point (9x17?). Intent is they mushroom out and lodge inside the target. Obviously shooting in cities, etc, they have to be careful of through-and-through wounds where the bullet ends up hitting dumb-asses standing in behind the target with their IPhones out.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but general infantry in armed forces use full metal jackets ~ these are designed to pass right through the target with the intent not to kill, but to disable and take the opponent out of battle.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesInCharge
I dont know if its just me but it looks pretty crazy when you're hopping around New York city with a knife, disobeying tens of officers pointing guns.
Whether he was mental just that day or has been for all his life, his killing wasnt justified specially with 10+ shots to his body.
What harm was he going to do with all those cops around... the only civilian that might have been hurt would be some idiot invading his personal space by coming up for a close camera shot.
He may have done something before but at that time you'd have to have a crystal ball to know he was going to harm someone. Do you own such an object?
Police officers are governed by the use of force policy and are given discretion to make these decisions especially in the heat of the moment. While you are entitled to an opinion based on what you saw in a video, you weren't there, nor do you have the qualifications or training to make that call whether it was justified or not.
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I dont need qualifications or training to know whether it was justified or not. All I need to do is use my common sense. Video shows metal patient is surrounded, then shot. Plain and simple.
Read my knife mounted bike analogy post again, it was a setup.
And how was it a setup? You refer to knocking the bike over. Well, in this case, the officers used nonlethal force AND tried to block him in with a police cruiser, but he managed to get away from all of that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesInCharge
What harm was he going to do with all those cops around... the only civilian that might have been hurt would be some idiot invading his personal space by coming up for a close camera shot.
He came within three feet of an officer when charging before he was shot. What was the cop supposed to do? Drop his gun and wrestle the knife away by hand, all the while hoping that the suspect doesn't get lucky and managed to slit a major artery? No. In such a case, an officer is trained to protect his life, along with those of everyone else before looking after that of the suspect.
I dont need qualifications or training to know whether it was justified or not. All I need to do is use my common sense. Video shows metal patient is surrounded, then shot. Plain and simple.
Again, nothing has been said about the guy being a mental patient, so enough with that angle.
Can anyone with police training (RCMP or PD) comment on whether there's training regarding this kind of thing to physically take down the suspect rather than use their firearm, or use of the firearm the only way to take them down? And I mean real PD or RCMP training, not your opinion, or what you heard from your family, or what you think you learned from a video online, or what you think you know now from a few weeks of training in a self defence class.
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You admit he looks crazy jumping around with a knife (crazy enough to be OBVIOUSLY mentally ill), but not crazy enough to harm people? There's some holes in your thought process.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesInCharge
He may have done something before but at that time you'd have to have a crystal ball to know he was going to harm someone. Do you own such an object?
"None of the officers at the scene had a Taser or other type of stun gun, he said."
Honestly, it doesn't surprise me that much. Ever since Dziekansky (sp?) and a few other tazer incidents where tazed people ended up dead...tazers have been on probation with a lot of policing agencies.
I find it kind of amusing in a terrible way: tazers are a non-lethal alternative to firearms. When you don't want to actually shoot someone, you taze them. But with repeated tazes and a compressed chest (from restraining someone and holding them down in order to arrest them) it can lead to complications like heart and/or lung failure.
I get it. I do. In certain situations tazers kill people. But I'll be honest; I'd much rather have cops armed with tazers that in some certain situations can result in fatalities than not having the tazers and simply having everyone armed with handguns. The people who are trying to (or succeeding in) get tazers banned are also resulting in these higher numbers of gunshot fatalities by law enforcement officers. Plain and simple.
Also, CiC, we face some problems. A little while ago, I was taking the bus downtown and (surprise surprise) ended up going through the DTES. In the DTES there is a very interesting mix of drunks, drug users, people with mental issues, and everything else you could possibly imagine.
If someone comes up to you agressively and starts accosting you, the reaction to all three would be very different. You can't treat a drunk the same way you treat a tweaker; the results are completely different. So how do you know who's got what problem? Should we start tattooing peoples' IQs and problems on their forehead? Make them wear a certain kind of clothes?
There is no easy solution. Sadly, rules are inflexible and will only work for the majority. Not everyone understands the rules or why they exist. This is the nature of rules, however: that everyone should be treated equally. We don't treat histories, we treat actions. And if it was me (30-year old white guy with a beard) running through Times Square with a knife swiping at people and charging at officers, I would be just as dead.
wow, some you guys are just oblivious and naive. Put yourself in a situation where you are NOT a police officer and just a civilian, and a stranger high on drugs was coming after you with an 11 inch knife. Would you choose to try to battle him out with a knife, or would you choose a gun? Now as a Police officer, at the end of the day, you are going home to your family, and serve so that innocent people/the pubic are going home to their families. The last thing you thinking about when someone is threatening to take their life, or the life of innocent bystanders, is to try to "wing" a suspect. As a police officer, you want to bring a gun to a knife fight, pure and simple. You shoot to stop the threat. If a male is non responsive to multiple attempts of pepper spray, what do you think his mindset is at? Who knows how high he is, and you definitely don't want to get so close to try to use a tazer or physical force to disarm him.
Why are people obsessing over the number of shots fired? This isn't the movies where one shot instantly kills a man.
The NYPD are issued 9mm semi-auto handguns (Glock 19, Sig P226 DAO, S&W 5946). 9mm is a poor man stopper. They are trained to continue firing into the centre of mass until the target is no longer a threat. With drugged individuals and poor accuracy in high stress situations, it's not uncommon for many shots to be ineffective.
Hmm, have to say I'm with JD on this one. I've always understood police forces use standard NATO calibre hollow-point (9x17?). Intent is they mushroom out and lodge inside the target. Obviously shooting in cities, etc, they have to be careful of through-and-through wounds where the bullet ends up hitting dumb-asses standing in behind the target with their IPhones out.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but general infantry in armed forces use full metal jackets ~ these are designed to pass right through the target with the intent not to kill, but to disable and take the opponent out of battle.
That what I have been taught and why I had mentioned it a few pages back. I did some forensic ballistic analysis training and was taught that very key difference.
Hmm, have to say I'm with JD on this one. I've always understood police forces use standard NATO calibre hollow-point (9x17?). Intent is they mushroom out and lodge inside the target. Obviously shooting in cities, etc, they have to be careful of through-and-through wounds where the bullet ends up hitting dumb-asses standing in behind the target with their IPhones out.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but general infantry in armed forces use full metal jackets ~ these are designed to pass right through the target with the intent not to kill, but to disable and take the opponent out of battle.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lomac
Again, nothing has been said about the guy being a mental patient, so enough with that angle.
Yes right before my post, #57 the linked article mentions... October 2008, he was taken to Bellevue Hospital Center for a psychiatric evaluation
You'd have to be pretty special to be taken to a mental hospital for evaluation. Im sure more news will come to light about this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twstd_reality
No, but apparently you do.
You admit he looks crazy jumping around with a knife (crazy enough to be OBVIOUSLY mentally ill), but not crazy enough to harm people? There's some holes in your thought process.
So this is how you want your standard of society to be, if someone looks crazy, take no chances and execute them. Fine, thats your opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lomac
And how was it a setup? You refer to knocking the bike over. Well, in this case, the officers used nonlethal force AND tried to block him in with a police cruiser, but he managed to get away from all of that
He came within three feet of an officer when charging before he was shot. What was the cop supposed to do? Drop his gun and wrestle the knife away by hand, all the while hoping that the suspect doesn't get lucky and managed to slit a major artery? No. In such a case, an officer is trained to protect his life, along with those of everyone else before looking after that of the suspect.
Like I said, they positioned themselves to be confronted, not back away for other methods to be used, how hard is that to understand. Everyone here has this "American cowboy" mentality, which is really worrying about the people in this city.
Take this local video for example, the cops have positioned themselves to confront the suspect. With RevScene's majority logic, was he to have a kitchen knife, basically everyone in this thread so far would be okay with his murder. http://i.imgur.com/6L5u2.jpg
So this is how you want your standard of society to be, if someone looks crazy, take no chances and execute them. Fine, thats your opinion.
My standard of society doesn't include you, Arash.
What does your standard of society include? Hugs for felons? Gentle caresses for child molesters?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MG1
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I would round up all criminal to work on isolated farms to feed themselves+ until they do their time. If they dont want to work they can starve to death.
edit - geez thanks for the new avatar modz. :thumbsdown:
Last edited by CharlesInCharge; 08-12-2012 at 04:56 PM.
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Dafuq did I just read?
