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Vancouver Off-Topic / Current EventsThe off-topic forum for Vancouver, funnies, non-auto centered discussions, WORK SAFE. While the rules are more relaxed here, there are still rules. Please refer to sticky thread in this forum.
Listen tool, would you tell a Jew who lived through the holocaust in Germany to "Grow the fuck up?"
There are many many people alive who suffered through this, we are not even a generation removed from it.
People already are.
People who hang history over the heads of individuals who are far removed from incidents and wars that is a generation or two is getting old and tiresome; and is really at this point, is just a pandering for attention via woe-is-me/us sympathy.
Yes, we all know the history; but also we have healed and moved on. I see so many Korean friends in good terms (and even married to Japanese spouses); I know a lot of of Chinese friends who are too as well. In fact, from what I gather, this is no longer (and hasn't been for a long time) a social taboo anymore.
IMO, opening up old wounds under the guise of "reflecting history" does nothing more than just push all the social advances we have accomplished recently back to what is was in the 1940's.
People who hang history over the heads of individuals who are far removed from incidents and wars that is a generation or two is getting old and tiresome; and is really at this point, is just a pandering for attention via woe-is-me/us sympathy.
Yes, we all know the history; but also we have healed and moved on. I see so many Korean friends in good terms (and even married to Japanese spouses); I know a lot of of Chinese friends who are too as well. In fact, from what I gather, this is no longer (and hasn't been for a long time) a social taboo anymore.
IMO, opening up old wounds under the guise of "reflecting history" does nothing more than just push all the social advances we have accomplished recently back to what is was in the 1940's.
So yeah, this wayyy off topic now.
Uh........the Germans have apologised long ago and have renounced their ways to the point where they're probably the strictest country on Earth in terms of Nazi representation in public.
I could repeat what most people here have said already but the fact remains.
1) The Japanese have no apologised, nor showed any signs of remorse
2) They changed their textbooks (China does this too for other issues but I digress)
Side note: I wonder if it's an Asian thing to be so passive aggressive. I live in HK and I see acts of passive agressiveness everyday. Has China/Korea/Any country harmed by Japan ever came out as a group and publically called them out? I need google I guess.
Listen tool, would you tell a Jew who lived through the holocaust in Germany to "Grow the fuck up?"
There are many many people alive who suffered through this, we are not even a generation removed from it.
My dad's family lived through the Holocaust (Austrian Jew) and my mom's family were German Nazi's (Opa was a field medic in Rommel's Afrikan Korps). My parents always kept my grandparents apart from one another because they were afraid of what might come out when they met, but once they finally did, you could barely separate them because they did everything together after that meeting. My dad's parents held no resentment because my Opa was merely a soldier doing what he was told. Sure, they hated those in charge of the SS and Nazi party, but it's hard to hold a grudge against a common soldier who was only following commands, lest he be shot for disobeying.
No offense, but that is a shitty example. Have you even studied Chinese history? Are you even Chinese or just an outsider looking in? People without education and knowledge on this situation should not be able to make such bold claims as you do because it diminishes what the victims had to go through. Are you even aware of the extent of what the Japanese did? 70 years is not a long time ago.
-Getting family members to rape one another
-Use of comfort women
-Holding contest between soldiers to kill the most people, which was published in the newspaper
-Chemical and biological weapons testing
-Raping pregnant women and killing them.
-Shoving bayonets up woman's genitals
-Extreme use of torture
The list goes on and on. Countries do go to war, but do they engage in acts of this caliber and on this scale, especially against unarmed civilians? I would classify these more as crimes against humanity. If Japan was on the scale of brutality as Germany, why do we not have the same kinds feelings of hostility towards Germans? one has taken responsibility and allowed the world to move forward.
The December 13, 1937 article in the Tokyo Nichi Nichi Shimbun's Contest to kill 100 people using a sword series. Mukai (left) and Noda (right)
Being educated on history like this is useless. It does nothing in the advance world like today but only bring on hate and maybe for some people, commit more crime.
If Nanjing never happened, do you think the Chinese would be as mad as they are today about the Diaoyu island?
I feel remorse for the victims, I truly do. And I still believe the Japanese had apologized for the Nanking incident. But it will never be enough because I am Chinese myself and I know for a fact that Chinese people hold every inch of grudge they have against any body that has done something to them. Every inch of returned favor, they slowly shave it off the grudge, until they feel that it has equally been returned.
Now again, I hate history, and I think we should let it fade. Yes victims suffered, but they should stop talking about it everywhere they go like it is the only thing that matter in today's world. Even worse, they try to pass it down their generations to our kids today in a sense that ALL Japanese people are bad people. We have schools for these teaching for fucks sakes.
And you sir, need to let this go as well. If you were not there to witness the massacre and are only basing the events off stories, teachings, pictures, and the media, take it with a grain of salt. We have advanced in life that it does not matter what happened 70 years ago, but what is happening now in China.
If the Chinese are rioting because they still feel anger from Nanking, then my judgement on the Chinese is still true. If they are rioting because of pride and dignity to fight for what's theirs, my judgement is still true. The Japanese bought the island, they didn't steal, hurt, rape, kill, or cheat to get it (but I can't say they didn't either in the shadows). As far as my knowledge goes, the majority of the Chinese protesting don't even know what they are protesting for/against but are joining the bandwagon because it is the Japanese and not anybody else.
Quote:
Uh........the Germans have apologised long ago and have renounced their ways to the point where they're probably the strictest country on Earth in terms of Nazi representation in public.
I could repeat what most people here have said already but the fact remains.
1) The Japanese have no apologised, nor showed any signs of remorse
2) They changed their textbooks (China does this too for other issues but I digress)
Side note: I wonder if it's an Asian thing to be so passive aggressive. I live in HK and I see acts of passive agressiveness everyday. Has China/Korea/Any country harmed by Japan ever came out as a group and publically called them out? I need google I guess.
Apology and condolences by the Prime Minister and Emperor of Japan
See also: List of war apology statements issued by Japan
On August 15, 1995, the fiftieth anniversary of the Surrender of Japan, the Japanese prime minister Tomiichi Murayama gave the first clear and formal apology for Japanese actions during the war. He apologized for Japan's wrongful aggression and the great suffering that it inflicted in Asia. He offered his heartfelt apology to all survivors and to the relatives and friends of the victims. That day, the prime minister and the Japanese Emperor Akihito pronounced statements of mourning at Tokyo's Nippon Budokan. The emperor offered his condolences and expressed the hope that such atrocities would never be repeated. Iris Chang, author of The Rape of Nanking, criticized Murayama for not providing the written apology that had been expected. She said that the people of China "don't believe that an... unequivocal and sincere apology has ever been made by Japan to China" and that a written apology from Japan would send a better message to the international community.[10]
It's not enough though. If the apology was in letter. They'll want it on public live television. If the apology was on television, they'll want it someone to step forth to take responsibility. If someone step forth and take the responsibility, they'll request that Japan teach Nanking to the children the way the Chinese wants them to.
I am Chinese, and I know the line doesn't stop at "apology".
Ok back on topic, the cost of the damage dealt far exceeds the little island =/
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tool001
r u seriously using that as a rebuttle?
when japan got bombed twice, do u think they asked US for apology? (if u know ur history,, japan was already done way before they got bombed.)
british killed thousands of people in india/pakistan ,,do u think India is going after England asking for an apology?
and same goes for US, using agent orange.. guess Vietnam should ask US "u say sorry now"
One could just as easily list a number of groups that are also pursuing apologies. Should the Armenians stop asking for one from Turkey since the massacre happened in 1915? Just because some other groups did not demand an apology does not mean everyone has to follow their lead.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_chin
Being educated on history like this is useless. It does nothing in the advance world like today but only bring on hate and maybe for some people, commit more crime.
If Nanjing never happened, do you think the Chinese would be as mad as they are today about the Diaoyu island?
I feel remorse for the victims, I truly do. And I still believe the Japanese had apologized for the Nanking incident. But it will never be enough because I am Chinese myself and I know for a fact that Chinese people hold every inch of grudge they have against any body that has done something to them. Every inch of returned favor, they slowly shave it off the grudge, until they feel that it has equally been returned.
Now again, I hate history, and I think we should let it fade. Yes victims suffered, but they should stop talking about it everywhere they go like it is the only thing that matter in today's world. Even worse, they try to pass it down their generations to our kids today in a sense that ALL Japanese people are bad people. We have schools for these teaching for fucks sakes.
And you sir, need to let this go as well. If you were not there to witness the massacre and are only basing the events off stories, teachings, pictures, and the media, take it with a grain of salt. We have advanced in life that it does not matter what happened 70 years ago, but what is happening now in China.
If the Chinese are rioting because they still feel anger from Nanking, then my judgement on the Chinese is still true. If they are rioting because of pride and dignity to fight for what's theirs, my judgement is still true. The Japanese bought the island, they didn't steal, hurt, rape, kill, or cheat to get it (but I can't say they didn't either in the shadows). As far as my knowledge goes, the majority of the Chinese protesting don't even know what they are protesting for/against but are joining the bandwagon because it is the Japanese and not anybody else.
Apology and condolences by the Prime Minister and Emperor of Japan
See also: List of war apology statements issued by Japan
On August 15, 1995, the fiftieth anniversary of the Surrender of Japan, the Japanese prime minister Tomiichi Murayama gave the first clear and formal apology for Japanese actions during the war. He apologized for Japan's wrongful aggression and the great suffering that it inflicted in Asia. He offered his heartfelt apology to all survivors and to the relatives and friends of the victims. That day, the prime minister and the Japanese Emperor Akihito pronounced statements of mourning at Tokyo's Nippon Budokan. The emperor offered his condolences and expressed the hope that such atrocities would never be repeated. Iris Chang, author of The Rape of Nanking, criticized Murayama for not providing the written apology that had been expected. She said that the people of China "don't believe that an... unequivocal and sincere apology has ever been made by Japan to China" and that a written apology from Japan would send a better message to the international community.[10]
It's not enough though. If the apology was in letter. They'll want it on public live television. If the apology was on television, they'll want it someone to step forth to take responsibility. If someone step forth and take the responsibility, they'll request that Japan teach Nanking to the children the way the Chinese wants them to.
I am Chinese, and I know the line doesn't stop at "apology".
I get your point that at some time people should let go, but I still think that 70 years is not a long time for people to "forget", and the negative sentiment towards the Japanese army for their actions is still widely culturally held. Yes I may not have been there but I am in some way personally affected. These actions happened during my grandparent's era and the experience forever changed them. Never mind the fact that my family lost generations of accumulated wealth from their invasion, I am more horrified at what they did and refuse to own up to. I could also make the argument that if apologies are so easy to make, why doesn't Japan do so? Obviously, whatever they have been able to muster till now have been considered to be insincere and insufficient based on the gravity and nature of the offenses. I do not blame the Japanese people themselves since they had nothing to do with it and may not really know; rather, I am pointing at their leadership to take responsibility. From your example of Iris Chang, seems like the issue is getting it put in writing - that is being refused.
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I get your point that at some time people should let go, but I still think that 70 years is not a long time for people to "forget", and the negative sentiment towards the Japanese army for their actions is still widely culturally held. Yes I may not have been there but I am in some way personally affected. These actions happened during my grandparent's era and the experience forever changed them. Never mind the fact that my family lost generations of accumulated wealth from their invasion, I am more horrified at what they did and refuse to own up to. I could also make the argument that if apologies are so easy to make, why doesn't Japan do so? Obviously, whatever they have been able to muster till now have been considered to be insincere and insufficient based on the gravity and nature of the offenses. I do not blame the Japanese people themselves since they had nothing to do with it and may not really know; rather, I am pointing at their leadership to take responsibility. From your example of Iris Chang, seems like the issue is getting it put in writing - that is being refused.
Why not? My grandparents watched their kin and kith die in concentration camps, yet not even forty years later they were able to joke around with people of the country that did it to them. It has nothing to do with being mad at citizens of a country. If you want to hold a grudge, fine; let it be against those responsible for the crimes. Don't paint an entire country and it's citizens with a broad brush and expect it to be okay.
And this whole "face" thing. I'm sorry because I know it's a cultural thing... but it's so fucking stupid!
here are some points i like to make about 100% chinese people.
- holds grudges. they count every single favor/offense to the heart. it's like they have a calculator implemented in their brain for this.
- they'll bring shit up from years ago if they had to. they'll bring shit up from centuries even.
- 101% pride and dignity. they'll stand up to what they believe no matter if it's right or wrong.
- therefore, they are very ignorant people.
- don't like to mind other's people business until it comes knocking on their door.
honestly, breaking your own car because it's made by japan? the fuck kinda concept is this? the moment you bought it and took it off the lot, it no longer belongs to japan. it's yours. whether you break it or love it, the japanese could care less. they have your money now.
Wow,Red Neck Chinese are fucking up their own country in the name of Anti-japanese protests..
Well...Gonna enjoy my True Freedom in Canada... I Just Know Everybody's Glad to be Chinese Born in Canada & not that shit country,I mean,The Stanley Cup riots wouldn't last more then 1 day....But this shit has being going on for weeks now??
" If I lose, winner takes my car clean and clear. But if I win, I take the cash, and I take the respect!"
"To some people the respect is more important"
but to some ppl just a meaningful apology is more important
I went up to a cute chick and asked her if she'd let me take a photo of her for $30 she slapped me, she said to me that "I AIN'T A WHORE!"
But other than that I have seen every car on display in DTP just by cruising about in Richmond, thank you very much for collecting them together and get someone to sing a cover for "fuck you".
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wtf man? what the hell kind of women do you go for? spca is for animals not dates...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wongtouski
I could repeat what most people here have said already but the fact remains.
1) The Japanese have no apologised, nor showed any signs of remorse
2) They changed their textbooks (China does this too for other issues but I digress)
how many times does it need to be repeated.... they've apologized a million times and attempted to pay reparations
its posted a few times on the first page already i'm not gonna quote it again -_-
Just 1 final note people have brought up a few times that Nanking happened in the 40's and are saying it isn't too long ago etc but to be exact the "Rape of Nanjing" happened in the 30's (dec '37 - mar '38 to be precise)
ahhhh..... China China.... (and by China I mean the Communist Party and it's leaders, not the people, well... not ALL the people)
A country where people aren't free enough to protest the government mandated flawed school design that killed all the children in your village when the building collapsed from a minor earthquake.... (this being just one of many many horrible but true examples I could have used in this analogy)
but by all means, go ahead get nuts as long as there's a nationalistic theme to it, full blown anti social behavior a-ok as long as you rock that commie flag bro.....
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I get your point that at some time people should let go, but I still think that 70 years is not a long time for people to "forget", and the negative sentiment towards the Japanese army for their actions is still widely culturally held. Yes I may not have been there but I am in some way personally affected. These actions happened during my grandparent's era and the experience forever changed them. Never mind the fact that my family lost generations of accumulated wealth from their invasion, I am more horrified at what they did and refuse to own up to. I could also make the argument that if apologies are so easy to make, why doesn't Japan do so? Obviously, whatever they have been able to muster till now have been considered to be insincere and insufficient based on the gravity and nature of the offenses. I do not blame the Japanese people themselves since they had nothing to do with it and may not really know; rather, I am pointing at their leadership to take responsibility. From your example of Iris Chang, seems like the issue is getting it put in writing - that is being refused.
Like you even said, the gravity and nature of the offenses. There is NOTHING that ANYBODY could do TODAY to make up for the massacre that happened in Nanking. NOTHING. If there was anything that could be done, it should have been done 10 years after, 20 years after. So stop dwelling on it and move on.
What's happening today matters most. But it appears that some Chinese are still using this excuse to start controversies. Burning down Toyota dealerships, burning down Japanese brand cars... do they ever think that Chinese people work in these dealership to make money to feed their kids? Do they ever think that Chinese people use their hard earn money to buy these vehicles for every day commute? No, because they're stubborn ignorant people who thinks that by vandalizing, they showed the Japanese that this is serious business. *snicker*
I went up to a cute chick and asked her if she'd let me take a photo of her for $30 she slapped me, she said to me that "I AIN'T A WHORE!"
But other than that I have seen every car on display in DTP just by cruising about in Richmond, thank you very much for collecting them together and get someone to sing a cover for "fuck you".
OH FUCK YOU OH OH OOOOH~
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neva
wtf man? what the hell kind of women do you go for? spca is for animals not dates...
These riots in China just show you how fuck'd up the Chinese society is by the communist party's brainwash.
I look at the pictures, all these people in their teens, maybe 2x or even 3x... what the FUCK Japanese have ever done to them? All the Chinese, including their family or relatives that suffered from the Japanese invasion are either dead or very old to even walk properly, let alone joining these riots. On what ground do these people riot? The pain and losses Japanese invasion caused you? Mao killed more Chinese than all Japanese had ever done during his regime and I don't see anyone rioting against communist party.
For most of these people's life, they use Japanese made/designed products, watch Japanese porn and probably work in a company with direct/indirect relation ship with Japanese. I am not saying that Chinese should simply forget what Japanese had done in the past. But one learns from the lesson and moves on. The Japanese today is different than those Japanese during the invasion. They should not be judged or treated equally.
These riots in China just show you how fuck'd up the Chinese society is by the communist party's brainwash.
I look at the pictures, all these people in their teens, maybe 2x or even 3x... what the FUCK Japanese have ever done to them? All the Chinese, including their family or relatives that suffered from the Japanese invasion are either dead or very old to even walk properly, let alone joining these riots. On what ground do these people riot? The pain and losses Japanese invasion caused you? Mao killed more Chinese than all Japanese had ever done during his regime and I don't see anyone rioting against communist party.
For most of these people's life, they use Japanese made/designed products, watch Japanese porn and probably work in a company with direct/indirect relation ship with Japanese. I am not saying that Chinese should simply forget what Japanese had done in the past. But one learns from the lesson and moves on. The Japanese today is different than those Japanese during the invasion. They should not be judged or treated equally.
Go tell them that the current house they live in was built by Japanese architectures and constructors... they'll probably burn down their home.
9-18, the day that japan blow up there only railway & frame china for it just so they can invade china
also just cuz they japanese said they were sorry doesnt really mean they mean't it as they never admitted they were wrong in the 1st place
this is exactly whats wrong! you claim you want an apology from the japanese and you got it in speech but thats not enough because it needs to be written, next having it written isn't enough as it has to be live AND written but that still isnt enough, the representative should kneel on their knees to show that they mean it but then it still won't be enough!!!
can you open your own eyes and see that you yourself is the problem? you will NEVER be satisfied along with a large majority of china...
stop living life through history textbooks and live in the present where it ACTUALLY matters...
Last edited by 46_valentinor; 09-18-2012 at 06:37 PM.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_chin
Like you even said, the gravity and nature of the offenses. There is NOTHING that ANYBODY could do TODAY to make up for the massacre that happened in Nanking. NOTHING. If there was anything that could be done, it should have been done 10 years after, 20 years after. So stop dwelling on it and move on.
What's happening today matters most. But it appears that some Chinese are still using this excuse to start controversies. Burning down Toyota dealerships, burning down Japanese brand cars... do they ever think that Chinese people work in these dealership to make money to feed their kids? Do they ever think that Chinese people use their hard earn money to buy these vehicles for every day commute? No, because they're stubborn ignorant people who thinks that by vandalizing, they showed the Japanese that this is serious business. *snicker*
I did not mean that so literally about what they should do to recompense. The way I see it, the Germans were able to do it so I am sure the Japanese could have as well. From asking family members, they said when Japan makes an apology they usually do so in a brush-off manner and are insincere. Yes they "could" have done it years ago, but the passage of time does not dictate that people should just "give up". As the present situation indicates, the Japanese government is still willing to act in ways reminiscent of imperialism to try and seize the Diaoyu Islands.
I will agree with you that the violence and destruction of private property is stupid as these businesses belong to or employ their fellow citizens, but is nonetheless behavior I deplore. However, with the numbers of people present in such a large country, it only takes a small group of idiots in each city protest to ruin it for the ones that want to do so peacefully. Besides, even in industrialized and developed countries, we are not immune to this type of behavior - sports riots for winning and losing happen all over North America.
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For those who claim that an adequate apology has been made. This may help to explain what is meant by insincere and why it still riles up ethnic tensions.
Quote:
[credit to David @ Pekingduck.org]"Yes, the Japanese leaders have issued multiple “apologies” about the war, but repeated statements after these “apologies” reflect the continual denial of Japanese actions in China and their efforts to gloss over or trivialize their actions. The only analogy I can think of that Americans can understand is that of a modern Germany that is run by Holocaust Deniers. The Japanese have trivialized the Rape of Naking, with many statements denying it ever happened. They have not admitted their activities with Unit 631 and the biological experiments performed on POWs and civilians. I recent read an English language book on the Sino-Japanese War, with a section written by Japanese historians using first person accounts of Japanese soldiers stationed in China. They used live Chinese POWs for bayonet practice as a matter of routine in order to ‘toughen up’ their soldiers for the type of treatment they were expected to mete out to the Chinese under occupation. The list goes on. Is China exploiting this fury? Yes, of course the CCP is doing it when it suits them. But they risk the situation getting out of hand, and they too underestimate the true feelings of the people. I have no hate for the Japanese. What happened happened a long time ago, and it’s time we put it behind us. But the denials and historical revisions do upset me. The Japanese should be honest with themselves and not put out the garbage that they were the victims in WWII."
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For those who claim that an adequate apology has been made. This may help to explain what is meant by insincere and why it still riles up ethnic tensions.
What a lame article.
You either hate the Japanese or not. You either have moved forward with the times or not. You either STILL hold a grudge or you don't. there's no, I am both in this thing.
That article is no better than statements like: "I don't mean to be racist but... *insert racist comment here" or "I don't mean to be rude but... *insert rude comment here"
the entire world has moved on and healed over time. However, if an individual today still chooses to hate an entire nation and it's subjects because a history book told them to do so, or because he or she disagrees with the rendition said country views it's history, well that's your perogative.
Shouldn't 70 years be long enough to forget about something? White america has forgotten its racial past, and president Obama is a testament to that.
Now imagine a white leader in China. Too hard to imagine?
Ok, imagine a white guy and Chinese girl coupple, middle class just regular people, openly dating in public in China. Turned out gruesome for the guy, didn't it?
How about we scale it way down to something light and easy... Imagine China letting go of a war that happened 70 years ago. A war with a complete different country at the time, people, style of thinking, a country that has since apologized for its past, etc. At this rate, not happening anytime soon.
We've been taught that it's bad to be racist, but is it bad to be too nationalistic? Maybe, maybe not. But we do know that nationalism is a medium for controlling the masses, and this riot is simply a bi-product of communism.
Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with Communism. As we've seen, communism style of government is an efficient style. Economically speaking.
If the citizens want these islands back so bad, they should all vote to go to war with this castrated (militarily speaking) country. Oh wait, they can't vote.
Also a side note, by boycotting Japanese products, the Chinese are effectively raising prices in their own economy. Simple supply/demand. Less competition, higher prices. People aren't going to lower prices down because of nationalistic pride.
Last edited by alpinestars; 09-18-2012 at 10:42 PM.
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& not that shit country,I mean,The Stanley Cup riots wouldn't last more then 1 day....But this shit has being going on for weeks now?? 
