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Vancouver Off-Topic / Current Events The off-topic forum for Vancouver, funnies, non-auto centered discussions, WORK SAFE. While the rules are more relaxed here, there are still rules. Please refer to sticky thread in this forum.

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Old 05-03-2013, 07:38 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shorn View Post
i think my problem with 5 year olds shooting guns is.. they don't yet understand the fragility of life quite yet and what kind of damage they COULD do with a gun.

like even with supervision, no matter how many times you tell the kid 'never point it at anyone', would a 5 year old _really_ understand like an adult would what danger it could cause if he shot someone?

would he understand he could kill someone, end their life? did the 5 year old who shot his sister understand at that moment that he will grow up a single child?

no, they do not. and that's the reason why it's dangerous. of course you can explain to a 5 year old that they must not do this, must not do that, but in reality a lot of kids break the rules, especially when they don't understand the seriousness of their actions.

how many times have you seen a 5 year old break a rule that their parents told them? and you're STILL okay with them using a potentially fatal weapon?

so NO - they definitely are not responsible enough to be shooting any time of firearm, either with or without supervision.
I've seen tons of adults break rules that they shouldn't Does that mean they should be remanded into the custody of those that do? Does that mean that those adults are now responsible? A 5 year old will not break rules if you properly teach them. How many times have you sped down Highway 91 or 99 despite the speed limit being at 80/90 respectively. It might be a "varying degree" of offences BUT it's still breaking the rules. And the thing is you are standing behind them ENSURING that they don't do anything wrong. After a lot of sessions of positive re-enforcement they will get the idea, just like adults. Maybe after a few fines and impound lots you *MAY* get the idea that speeding is dangerous. Or you could just be someone who doesn't break the law in the first place.
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Old 05-03-2013, 09:56 AM   #77
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Yes I know 12 year olds shoot guns in the cadets but to my knowledge even the army isn't crazy enough to let FIVE year olds shoot guns. You were more than double their age.. How are you even comparing this?
I'm not comparing it. I only mentioned it, because that's the experience that I have. I just feel that the strict structure that I was introduced to will work with someone younger.

nobody here is arguing that a 5 year old should handle a firearm by themselves, we are all saying that with proper supervision, it can be done in a very safe manner. This news article obviously is not an example of proper supervision.
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Old 05-03-2013, 10:35 AM   #78
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Besides miss_crayon, how many of you have experience in dealing with 5 yr olds?
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Old 05-03-2013, 01:19 PM   #79
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I've seen tons of adults break rules that they shouldn't Does that mean they should be remanded into the custody of those that do? Does that mean that those adults are now responsible? A 5 year old will not break rules if you properly teach them. How many times have you sped down Highway 91 or 99 despite the speed limit being at 80/90 respectively. It might be a "varying degree" of offences BUT it's still breaking the rules. And the thing is you are standing behind them ENSURING that they don't do anything wrong. After a lot of sessions of positive re-enforcement they will get the idea, just like adults. Maybe after a few fines and impound lots you *MAY* get the idea that speeding is dangerous. Or you could just be someone who doesn't break the law in the first place.
the argument you are making isn't valid because you are comparing adults and 5 year olds based on the fact that they may both break rules.
you should be comparing the fact that when a 5 year old breaks a rule, they may not understand the consequences or seriousness of what they could do, while a (mentally capable and normal) adult would.

therefore your example of speeding and your belief that 'breaking rules is breaking rules' do not apply since the fact is speeding moderately is a much lower consequence action than pointing a gun at somebody. and adults realize this. therefore through a risk-reward judgement, there are adults who decide to speed, but no adult would point a gun at somebody.

and yes, i would argue a 5 year old cannot do the same.


as for your belief that you can stand behind them ensuring that nothing bad happens, i'm sure there MUST be a moment where you let them shoot by themselves. and when they have freedom of movement, anything is possible. bullets are pretty quick..

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Besides miss_crayon, how many of you have experience in dealing with 5 yr olds?
yes. i have cousins that are that age. yes they are smart, they can play piano and stuff but still there is no way i would place a loaded firearm in their hands, loaded or not. cause the key difference here is a piano is not a lethal weapon (unless you drop it on someone maybe)
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Old 05-03-2013, 01:55 PM   #80
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yes. i have cousins that are that age. yes they are smart, they can play piano and stuff but still there is no way i would place a loaded firearm in their hands, loaded or not. cause the key difference here is a piano is not a lethal weapon (unless you drop it on someone maybe)
Exactly - a 5 yr old cannot comprehend the "weight/responsibility" of having/operating a firearm.
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Old 05-03-2013, 04:20 PM   #81
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REAL guns for kids?
WTF is this world coming to? wow.
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Old 05-03-2013, 04:30 PM   #82
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Fuck. When will this tired cliché argument of "People kill people, not guns" finally end? It is the most stupid strawman argument I have ever heard.

Yes, people kill people, but you know what? Guns make it a whole lot fucking easier. Just like an Airplane makes it a whole lot easier for my black ass to hit the beach in Cuba. Could I travel to these countries without the advent of Air Travel? Yes. Would it be really inconvenient and difficult? Hell yes. Guns are no different, yes the person makes that choice, but if that option was not available it is highly likely the incident would not occur.

People who have pulled out the knife argument have obviously never tried to stab a person before. To simply think that a person who shoots someone would also stab that same person if they didn't have access to the gun is simply asinine.
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Old 05-03-2013, 07:15 PM   #83
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And what sort of brain washing are they trying to do selling guns to kids?
They market gun to kids to instill at an early age a gun culture, much like how they use to have tobacco commercials on cartoon channels.
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Old 05-04-2013, 11:17 AM   #84
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Fuck. When will this tired cliché argument of "People kill people, not guns" finally end? It is the most stupid strawman argument I have ever heard.

Yes, people kill people, but you know what? Guns make it a whole lot fucking easier. Just like an Airplane makes it a whole lot easier for my black ass to hit the beach in Cuba. Could I travel to these countries without the advent of Air Travel? Yes. Would it be really inconvenient and difficult? Hell yes. Guns are no different, yes the person makes that choice, but if that option was not available it is highly likely the incident would not occur.

People who have pulled out the knife argument have obviously never tried to stab a person before. To simply think that a person who shoots someone would also stab that same person if they didn't have access to the gun is simply asinine.
The argument is that we are assuming people are too stupid/evil to learn to respect and control guns, and that after inventing a powerful tool we as a society think that the people in society are too evil/stupid to learn how to harness this power. We would actually rather get the government to lock it up and control what we can own and instead of having better education systems to teach the people how to use this product. It kind of shows very little faith on our self control as a whole.

Guns do make it easier to kill people. But there there are many ways to kill people.

There are crazy people everywhere ...

There are bad drivers, serial killer/rapists, random people get pushed onto the train tracks, drunk drivers, parents that kill their own kids, suicide bombers, blah blah blah.

The argument is that guns are neutral objects.

People are the ones that use it bad intent. Yes removing an automatic gun from a crazy person makes that person a little safer. But that doesn't fix the problem at it's root which is the person was crazy and dangerous to begin with. The crazy person can get in a truck and slam his car into a school bus full of children. In this case we don't blame the car for being the tool which killed the children. How is that any different? You don't think about the car as being a weapon because it has other legitimate everyday uses. But so does a gun, and it has been for many many years.

You don't punish all drivers of cars because of drunk drivers.

Why do you punish all law abiding citizens that own firearms because of crazy or careless firearm owners?
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Old 05-04-2013, 12:34 PM   #85
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The argument is that we are assuming people are too stupid/evil to learn to respect and control guns, and that after inventing a powerful tool we as a society think that the people in society are too evil/stupid to learn how to harness this power. We would actually rather get the government to lock it up and control what we can own and instead of having better education systems to teach the people how to use this product. It kind of shows very little faith on our self control as a whole.

Guns do make it easier to kill people. But there there are many ways to kill people.

There are crazy people everywhere ...

There are bad drivers, serial killer/rapists, random people get pushed onto the train tracks, drunk drivers, parents that kill their own kids, suicide bombers, blah blah blah.

The argument is that guns are neutral objects.

People are the ones that use it bad intent. Yes removing an automatic gun from a crazy person makes that person a little safer. But that doesn't fix the problem at it's root which is the person was crazy and dangerous to begin with. The crazy person can get in a truck and slam his car into a school bus full of children. In this case we don't blame the car for being the tool which killed the children. How is that any different? You don't think about the car as being a weapon because it has other legitimate everyday uses. But so does a gun, and it has been for many many years.

You don't punish all drivers of cars because of drunk drivers.

Why do you punish all law abiding citizens that own firearms because of crazy or careless firearm owners?

1. We don't blame the car because the person used it for a purpose it wasnt intended to. Much like using a hammer to knock someone over the head, or grabbing a kitchen knife in a domestic dispute. Firearms however, are built for that purpose.


2. We do punish all drivers because of drunk driving. Our drinking and driving laws have progressed much over the years. Sure, some drivers handle alcohol better than others, but that doesn't matter, we're all covered by the same blanket rule.
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Old 05-04-2013, 08:22 PM   #86
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I've never felt less compassion for a parent losing their child. What a bunch of morons.

Poor little girl...that sucks. The parents should be charged with criminal negligence causing death, at the very least.

How much more pain will America have to endure before they realize they're idiots?
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Old 05-04-2013, 08:27 PM   #87
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Ok, the thought of a 5 year old having a gun while under strict supervision doesn't bother me as long as they learn that it's not a toy and to respect it for what it is.

The part that bothers me is that it was just left there for the kid to shoot his sister. Stupid parents, they should shoot them in the heads.
Are you kidding? Have you met any five year olds? They are STUPID. I don't care if they're the smartest five year olds in the world...they're still stupid.

If I wanted to be, for example, a pilot...there's no way they'd let me fly a 747 after five years of experience. What makes you think someone that's only been on earth for five years has enough intelligence to do anything past defecating in a toilet rather than their own pants, especially when the first of those is spent drooling and sucking on tits?

If you can't buy porn until you're 18, there's damn well no way you should be allowed to have a GUN when you're FIVE.

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I don't know if you been around many 5 year olds, but some of them are plenty smart.
A 5 year old would definitely understand the destruction of a misused firearm. I have seen five year old plays pianos and violins all my life and you would be surprise how much a five year old can do.

As for the shooting part, not all people are "hobby" shooters. Perhaps they wanted to start him at a young age some he can more experience.

In this case though, the child's parents are guilty for not safely keeping the rifle.
Yes but pianos and violins aren't deadly weapons. Would you give a 5-year old a kitchen knife to chop some veggies under your supervision?

Have you seen the SCISSORS they give kids? They're dull and made of plastic. Why? Because kids are stupid and will hurt themselves. They barely have full control over their motor skills. Ever watch kids hockey? For every Sidney Crosby that could do pinpoint crossovers as a toddler, there's a million kids that can barely keep their balance and don't know what to do with their arms.

You're absolutely wrong. There are a total of ZERO smart five year olds in this entire world. ZERO. The ones that are smart are smart "for a five year old", not smart compared to the rest of humanity. Just because someone can play a violin doesn't mean they're smart. It means they're talented.
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Old 05-04-2013, 08:44 PM   #88
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WHAT THE FUCK AMERICA

Now I'm just pissed. So a girl that loves science wanted to conduct an experiment out of curiosity, it goes wrong and the ensuing "explosion" is so small that it doesn't even blow up the bottle...it just pops off the top and causes a little smoke. WOW. Zero death, no property damage...and she gets arrested, expelled, tried as an adult. AMAZING.

CONSEQUENCES?! When has there ever been consequences in America? Dude shoots a black kid for wearing a hoodie and gets away with it. Cop shoots guy by accident, no discipline. Hell, Lindsay Lohan gets arrested every week to have to courts kiss her vagina instead of throwing her in jail for running over babies while doing coke.

Does America not realize how stupid they are and how absolutely illogical all of this is?

OH WAIT FLORIDA
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Old 05-04-2013, 08:50 PM   #89
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Have you seen the SCISSORS they give kids? They're dull and made of plastic. Why? Because kids are stupid and will hurt themselves. They barely have full control over their motor skills.
thank was gonna point that out...they don't even have refined motor skills...the thought of those fingers near a trigger to a .22 rfile
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