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Old 05-08-2013, 11:31 PM   #101
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If anyone of the group is a member on here, please set up an an anonymous account and post what happened. It would be interesting to hear what occurred and we can give you some advice on how to proceed.
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Old 05-08-2013, 11:32 PM   #102
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This case has more holes in it than Swiss cheese. If any of the drivers are on this site, I would seriously encourage you to dispute the excessive speeding ticket.

There is no evidence of the police actually measuring the speed of any of the drivers with a speed measuring device required by law - LIDAR or radar.

Visual speed estimation is useless when you're up in a helicopter. Ever try to estimate the speed of a plane by looking up in air?

The fact that the cars can be impounded based on zero evidence is an outrage.

This is a joke. Regular citizens calling in a bunch of cars driving at a reasonable albeit brisk pace is pathetic. ONLY IN BC!
I actually agree and I do want Zero-Offset and his friends to at least ask for disclosure (and share on RS).
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Old 05-08-2013, 11:41 PM   #103
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The significance here, IMHO, is that there was a GROUP of cars speeding.

I am not debating the speed at which they were speeding, over the legal limit.

I am not debating whether they were good drivers, or if they have their cars under control, or if the S2S highway is easy to drive on.

But, I want to point out that a GROUP of cars were speeding.

It wasn't just 1.

It was a group, together, at the same time, near each other.

Now, based on common sense, if even one of these cars encounter a small problem, surprise, wrong move, etc., it is rational to think that this would cause a ripple effect on the 8/9 cars, and turn it into a HUGE accident.

The chances of an accident and the severity of it, increases that much more when a group of car travels near each other at high speeds, trying to periodically change lanes and overtake other cars in the group.

Picture Nascar racing when one car screws up, and causes several other cars to hit the first car that screwed up... Mind you, the speeds in the story obviously weren't as fast as Nascar racing, but the Nascar comparison is simply used to provide a picture on accidents when a GROUP of cars speed.

Last edited by Marshall Placid; 05-08-2013 at 11:50 PM.
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Old 05-08-2013, 11:47 PM   #104
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Wow. Marco911 is right.
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I'd probably blow someone for that 911
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Old 05-08-2013, 11:49 PM   #105
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I rarely post on here, but lets just say I know of "a friend" who was involved in this.

From what i heard:

Zero-Offset was telling the truth. They were all heading down from a dinner with a bunch of bro's. This group of people are known to drift, this is true, but they do so on the track. For proof, look at capD footage. They keep this shit off the streets. Im sure all of us at some point have gone over the speed limit, text while driving, talked on the phone, so its not exactly fair to point fingers and say these people are giving the whole car community a bad rep. Its rather hypocritical. The fact of the matter is, most of these people have their class 5's and have been violation free. Based on the video footage and the fact and these "news sources", there was no street racing, nor intent to do so. It was a bunch of friends spending time together and not leaving one of them behind.

Regardless of this, speeding is still speeding. Whether its 5Km or 200KM above the speed limit, and rules must be enforced. I think this comes as a learning stage for all of us to take it easy on the left foot as you never know what could happen. With that being said, there is no verifiable evidence that the group was speeding, and I would like to remind everyone of the fact that people in Canada are innocent until proven guilty.

If anyone would like further information in regards to this, shoot me a PM and I can provide you more information from my source.

Thanks,

C
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Old 05-09-2013, 12:09 AM   #106
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Are you really this stupid?
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Originally Posted by Marco911 View Post
There is no evidence of the police actually measuring the speed of any of the drivers with a speed measuring device required by law - LIDAR or radar.
Measuring devices are not "required by law". Go read posts by zulu, skidmark, and other cops in the Police Forum, who've regularly written tickets based ONLY on visual estimations, and had them stick. "Measuring devices" that back up visual estimations only increase the probability of a conviction; they are not "required by law".

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Visual speed estimation is useless when you're up in a helicopter.
And you know this because you do it on a regular basis?

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Ever try to estimate the speed of a plane by looking up in air?
Irrelevant. Estimating speed of a vehicle from the air is easy if you have fixed markers of a known distance. If you know point A and B are X distance apart, and a car passes them in Y seconds, it's dead simple to calculate the speed VERY ACCURATELY. Pick two points that are 1km apart - if a car takes one minute to travel between them, you know it's doing 60km/h. If it takes him 30s to cover that distance, you know he's doing 120km/h. Only "measuring device" required is a second hand on a watch (or seconds counter on a digital clock).

Speed patrols are done from the air all over the world, including right here in BC - they're most often done with the aid of lines painted on the road at a set spacing, but those aren't required.

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The fact that the cars can be impounded based on zero evidence is an outrage.
And you know there's zero evidence because... what? The news report didn't list any? Or because you have access to the notes from all the cops who attended this stop?
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Old 05-09-2013, 12:11 AM   #107
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Wow. Marco911 is right.
Not even close.

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Regardless of this, speeding is still speeding. Whether its 5Km or 200KM above the speed limit, and rules must be enforced. I think this comes as a learning stage for all of us to take it easy on the left foot as you never know what could happen.
JDM driver?

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With that being said, there is no verifiable evidence that the group was speeding, and I would like to remind everyone of the fact that people in Canada are innocent until proven guilty.
You make the same mistake as Marco: you assume because the news item doesn't provide a full accounting of evidence, that there isn't any.
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Old 05-09-2013, 12:27 AM   #108
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they can visual estimate you, that's how i lost my case a few years ago
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Old 05-09-2013, 01:41 AM   #109
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I rarely post on here, but lets just say I know of "a friend" who was involved in this.

From what i heard:

Zero-Offset was telling the truth. They were all heading down from a dinner with a bunch of bro's. This group of people are known to drift, this is true, but they do so on the track. For proof, look at capD footage. They keep this shit off the streets. Im sure all of us at some point have gone over the speed limit, text while driving, talked on the phone, so its not exactly fair to point fingers and say these people are giving the whole car community a bad rep. Its rather hypocritical. The fact of the matter is, most of these people have their class 5's and have been violation free. Based on the video footage and the fact and these "news sources", there was no street racing, nor intent to do so. It was a bunch of friends spending time together and not leaving one of them behind.

Regardless of this, speeding is still speeding. Whether its 5Km or 200KM above the speed limit, and rules must be enforced. I think this comes as a learning stage for all of us to take it easy on the left foot as you never know what could happen. With that being said, there is no verifiable evidence that the group was speeding, and I would like to remind everyone of the fact that people in Canada are innocent until proven guilty.

If anyone would like further information in regards to this, shoot me a PM and I can provide you more information from my source.

Thanks,

C
Wrong, the moment the cars were impounded you were automatically guilty and you need to prove your own innocence. Basically all it takes is one person breaking the law and the rest are guilty by association.

If it's true they can use a speed visual against you then you are pretty much screwed
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Old 05-09-2013, 03:37 AM   #110
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The significance here, IMHO, is that there was a GROUP of cars speeding.

I am not debating whether they were good drivers, or if they have their cars under control, or if the S2S highway is easy to drive on.

But, I want to point out that a GROUP of cars were speeding.

It wasn't just 1.

It was a group, together, at the same time, near each other.

Now, based on common sense, if even one of these cars encounter a small problem, surprise, wrong move, etc., it is rational to think that this would cause a ripple effect on the 8/9 cars, and turn it into a HUGE accident.

The chances of an accident and the severity of it, increases that much more when a group of car travels near each other at high speeds, trying to periodically change lanes and overtake other cars in the group.

Picture Nascar racing when one car screws up, and causes several other cars to hit the first car that screwed up... Mind you, the speeds in the story obviously weren't as fast as Nascar racing, but the Nascar comparison is simply used to provide a picture on accidents when a GROUP of cars speed.
You don't have any evidence that they were speeding, and neither does the police. There is no law that says that a group of cars can't drive together.
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Old 05-09-2013, 04:02 AM   #111
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Are you really this stupid?

Measuring devices are not "required by law". Go read posts by zulu, skidmark, and other cops in the Police Forum, who've regularly written tickets based ONLY on visual estimations, and had them stick. "Measuring devices" that back up visual estimations only increase the probability of a conviction; they are not "required by law".
I know more about speed enforcement methods than most people in this forum, including yourself. LIDAR, RADAR or visual estimation alone are enough to convict, as my post has said. Visual estimation alone is the WEAKEST and usually needs to be backed up by LIDAR/RADAR because of the hundreds of variables involved. They do not get trained in a moving helicopter. Did you hear the officer in the helicopter provide the speed of any of the vehicles? NO.


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Irrelevant. Estimating speed of a vehicle from the air is easy if you have fixed markers of a known distance. If you know point A and B are X distance apart, and a car passes them in Y seconds, it's dead simple to calculate the speed VERY ACCURATELY.
Blah blah blah. You see these markers on hwys where there is a solid line painted across a measured distance. They cannot just pick up some random section of road. No evidence that this method was used.

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Pick two points that are 1km apart - if a car takes one minute to travel between them, you know it's doing 60km/h. If it takes him 30s to cover that distance, you know he's doing 120km/h. Only "measuring device" required is a second hand on a watch (or seconds counter on a digital clock).
Irrelevant, since this wasn't used.

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Speed patrols are done from the air all over the world, including right here in BC - they're most often done with the aid of lines painted on the road at a set spacing, but those aren't required.
Fixed markers of a known distance ARE required.

Cops can write you a ticket for anything they feel like. If you know the law and can defend yourself in court, it does not mean they can get a conviction for it.

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And you know there's zero evidence because... what? The news report didn't list any? Or because you have access to the notes from all the cops who attended this stop?
It's just like the group of speeders in White Rock, where the cops had to do a huge about face and drop all the charges when they realized they had no evidence.
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Old 05-09-2013, 04:04 AM   #112
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they can visual estimate you, that's how i lost my case a few years ago
You lost your case because you failed to mount a suitable defence. An officer at the side of the road could be trained to visually estimate your speed. That does not mean he can still obtain a conviction if he is trying to estimate your speed from a moving chopper at altitude. That's not part of the training.
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Old 05-09-2013, 04:07 AM   #113
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If it's true they can use a speed visual against you then you are pretty much screwed
I love how Generation Y rolls over and gives up so easily.
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Old 05-09-2013, 06:27 AM   #114
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Im not sure how often you drive that road, but I dont think I have ever seen logging trucks randomly pull out onto a highway on blind corners anywhere along the S2S, but hey, what do I know, I have only been up and down that highway for 26 years.
I was using a logging truck as an example of a hazard you could come across. Nowhere did I say the S2S has regular logging truck.

Do you want to counter any of my arguments (like a 911 being unable to avoid an accident) or are you going nitpick what was a comment about road hazards in general?
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Old 05-09-2013, 06:28 AM   #115
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The significance here, IMHO, is that there was a GROUP of cars speeding.

I am not debating the speed at which they were speeding, over the legal limit.

I am not debating whether they were good drivers, or if they have their cars under control, or if the S2S highway is easy to drive on.

But, I want to point out that a GROUP of cars were speeding.

It wasn't just 1.

It was a group, together, at the same time, near each other.

Now, based on common sense, if even one of these cars encounter a small problem, surprise, wrong move, etc., it is rational to think that this would cause a ripple effect on the 8/9 cars, and turn it into a HUGE accident.

The chances of an accident and the severity of it, increases that much more when a group of car travels near each other at high speeds, trying to periodically change lanes and overtake other cars in the group.

Picture Nascar racing when one car screws up, and causes several other cars to hit the first car that screwed up... Mind you, the speeds in the story obviously weren't as fast as Nascar racing, but the Nascar comparison is simply used to provide a picture on accidents when a GROUP of cars speed.
I take it you have never driven on a freeway? On these freeways, there are hundreds of cars. They are ALL driving together, IN THE SAME DIRECTION

AT ANY MOMENT THEY COULD ALL DIE IN A FIERY CRASH OMGGGGGGGGGGGGG
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Old 05-09-2013, 06:31 AM   #116
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I was using a logging truck as an example of a hazard you could come across. Nowhere did I say the S2S has regular logging truck.

Do you want to counter any of my arguments (like a 911 being unable to avoid an accident) or are you going nitpick what was a comment about road hazards in general?
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I am nitpicking that you are throwing out a rediculous arguement. You may have well said you could come around the corner and run into a horse and carriage. You are reacting to this news like its 1867. ERMAHGERD ERNIE WAS RIDING HIS STALLION AT A HIGH RATE OF SPEED AND NEARLY RAN DOWN GRANDMA NELLY WALKING HER DONKEY. Unless all these cars are falling apart on bald, rotting tires, 140km/h on the 4 lane sea to sky highway is nothing to be blown away about. As an auto mechanic you should know this. The police and the media are sensationalizing this and you are eating it up like a can of .
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Old 05-09-2013, 08:02 AM   #117
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I'll bite.

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A sports car (like a 911) has less of a chance to avoid an accident at 130 km/h than a minivan does at 100 km/h. Less of a chance to brake in time and less chance of making a lane change to avoid something. Sports cars do not defy physics and their capabilities are not that much better than "normal" cars.
Sports cars do have greater active safety than "normal" cars, which makes them better at avoiding crashes.

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This discussion has been brought up numerous times on RS and people still have the false belief that "sports cars" or modern cars somehow have limits that are far beyond cars your parents drove. This is simply not true.
I guess it depends how you define "far beyond." If driving above the speed limit makes an alert sports car driver react 2 seconds faster than a driver on snooze-control at the speed limit in a Cadillac Eldorado, who has a better chance of avoiding an accident? Way too many factors to consider than making some simplifying assumptions.

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It's also irrelevant. Speed limits aren't set based on how flat and straight the road is or how good your car is - they are based on the ability for motorists to avoid (or minimize) a collision when an event occurs that is unexpected. 140 km/h may seem fine, but what if another car pulls out in front of you? Or a deer crosses the road? Or you come around the corner to find an overturned logging truck?
Speed limits aren't optimized for anything. They are a compromise and balance convenience against other factors. One might choose to practice civil disobedience and ignore the number posted on the sign. I certainly do.
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Old 05-09-2013, 08:10 AM   #118
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140 is a Fukin joke and getting 7 days impound is bullshit... Coming from. Guy who grew up in Germany.
If ur within of 20/40k with the flow of traffic it's not excessive speeding IMO... Especially in the passing lane
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Old 05-09-2013, 08:36 AM   #119
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You don't have any evidence that they were speeding, and neither does the police.
And again I ask, how do you know this? Just because the news item only has the Air One video doesn't mean the police don't have other evidence that they haven't chosen to share with The Almighty Marco.
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Old 05-09-2013, 08:37 AM   #120
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I'll bite.



Sports cars do have greater active safety than "normal" cars, which makes them better at avoiding crashes.
they can achieve, maintain, handle, navigate and brake higher speeds better than normal cars yes. but crash wise, I rather be in a Toyota sienna than a 240sx
you're betting too much on the fact that the drivers can avoid any possible accidents, all it takes is a car on the side of the road with a flat around a corner
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Old 05-09-2013, 08:39 AM   #121
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Sports cars do have greater active safety than "normal" cars, which makes them better at avoiding crashes.
How much "active safety" is on your vintage C4S, compared to your average modern minivan? Today's vehicles are loaded with systems that didn't even exist outside the lab when your car was made.

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I guess it depends how you define "far beyond." If driving above the speed limit makes an alert sports car driver react 2 seconds faster than a driver on snooze-control at the speed limit in a Cadillac Eldorado, who has a better chance of avoiding an accident? Way too many factors to consider than making some simplifying assumptions.
How about a non-alert sports car driver? There's nothing that guarantees someone who's doing 140+ is paying any closer attention to the road than anyone else. YOU might... doesn't mean everyone does.

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Speed limits aren't optimized for anything. They are a compromise and balance convenience against other factors. One might choose to practice civil disobedience and ignore the number posted on the sign. I certainly do.
Then you should not expect you can ignore the consequences.
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Old 05-09-2013, 08:59 AM   #122
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And again I ask, how do you know this? Just because the news item only has the Air One video doesn't mean the police don't have other evidence that they haven't chosen to share with The Almighty Marco.
I guess you're agreeing with me that there isn't enough evidence to convict based on the helicopter video and the road block they set up. Haha.
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Old 05-09-2013, 09:00 AM   #123
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looks like a cop car overheated or something trying to chase them
pretty sure I know who it is, but I won't say any names to respect peoples privacy
That USDM crown vic ain't got nothin on the RPS13
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Old 05-09-2013, 09:01 AM   #124
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they can achieve, maintain, handle, navigate and brake higher speeds better than normal cars yes. but crash wise, I rather be in a Toyota sienna than a 240sx
you're betting too much on the fact that the drivers can avoid any possible accidents, all it takes is a car on the side of the road with a flat around a corner
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And what makes you think that unlikely situation wouldn't be avoidable just because one happened to be travelling over the speed limit?
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Old 05-09-2013, 09:05 AM   #125
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How much "active safety" is on your vintage C4S, compared to your average modern minivan? Today's vehicles are loaded with systems that didn't even exist outside the lab when your car was made.
Lol. Please tell me one safety system that is on "today's vehicles" that is not on my C4S.

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How about a non-alert sports car driver? There's nothing that guarantees someone who's doing 140+ is paying any closer attention to the road than anyone else. YOU might... doesn't mean everyone does.
Let's just say that if you are driving aggressively, you are concentrating on the drive. When you drive at the speed limit, your brain is likely to be cruising on auto pilot.
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