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Old 03-26-2014, 10:39 PM   #13676
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Originally Posted by 68style View Post
Sami Salo for Peter Schaefer
Got Linden back home for draft picks
Traded picks to pick the Sedins together (Thrashers too the Sedin pick and drafted Patrick Stefan haha) which basically shaped the franchise for the next 12 years............. I wouldn't say he hasn't made a good move since.
...I'm going to let you go Google what year those things happened.
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Old 03-26-2014, 10:41 PM   #13677
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Old 03-26-2014, 10:45 PM   #13678
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Old 03-26-2014, 10:45 PM   #13679
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@#2

Chicago snuck in as a #8 seed in 2011 as Dallas lost in their final game of the season. Clearly they should've tanked. Look how far it set back their chances at another Stanley Cup ... They even got knocked out by the lowly Coyotes the following season ...
Completely different situations. The Blackhawks core got broken up (sort of) because they were all getting out of their entry level contracts but clearly, their leadership group was still young enough to thrive in the league for years to come. The Canucks leadership core is north of 30 and their skills have declined.

Sneaking in at 8 and hoping to make a run is the bullshit that has murdered the Flames since their miracle run in '04.

Nearly every team in the NHL that has won Cups in today's NHL has shown that you have to be bad before you can be good. Chicago, Pittsburgh, Anaheim, LA were all absolutely awful for years before they got lottery picks and got the guys that you can build a winner with. We had that with the Sedins and now that chance is over.
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Old 03-26-2014, 10:46 PM   #13680
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...I'm going to let you go Google what year those things happened.
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Old 03-26-2014, 10:56 PM   #13681
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Completely different situations. The Blackhawks core got broken up (sort of) because they were all getting out of their entry level contracts but clearly, their leadership group was still young enough to thrive in the league for years to come. The Canucks leadership core is north of 30 and their skills have declined.

Sneaking in at 8 and hoping to make a run is the bullshit that has murdered the Flames since their miracle run in '04.

Nearly every team in the NHL that has won Cups in today's NHL has shown that you have to be bad before you can be good. Chicago, Pittsburgh, Anaheim, LA were all absolutely awful for years before they got lottery picks and got the guys that you can build a winner with. We had that with the Sedins and now that chance is over.
Oh, Anaheim ... Really? What top picks did they get that won them a cup? Do tell ...

Los Angeles? Oh yeah, Thomas Hickey is doing loads of good for them. Has nothing to do with the 5th round pick that was a Conn Smythe winner or any of the other post-1st round picks they translated into good players. They also completely gave up on all of their players with "potential" and decided to go with veterans instead. Doughty is the only top 5 pick they got that's doing anything and there's no Doughty in this draft, let alone at any pick we were capable of getting even if we started tanking 10 games ago.

Chicago is good because of depth and good drafting, not solely because of high picks. Notice how the years between depth they were incredibly mediocre, but still made the playoffs. A few stars doesn't get you anywhere.

Pittsburgh, again, depth. Since they traded Jordan Staal away, they haven't been nearly as good.

Where is Edmonton? The Islanders? Columbus? I mean, they should be competing for championships year after year, right?

Detroit and San Jose are garbage, no high picks. They must be like middle of the pack every year for the last decade or two, right?

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Old 03-26-2014, 11:12 PM   #13682
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...I'm going to let you go Google what year those things happened.
Does it matter? You make it sound like he did nothing other than put the Anaheim puzzle pieces together...

Lupul, Gardiner, Kessel, Van Riemsdyk... I'd say those players are pretty significant and important to the Maple Leafs wouldn't you?
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Old 03-26-2014, 11:24 PM   #13683
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Detroit is the exception to the rule every single time.

Lottery picks was the wrong word but high picks...the sort where you just have to be terrible for. The Canucks either haven't been in that category or have squandered their chances in the 1st round. I realize that there are plenty of bad examples but...we have to think that we're in a better situation than the idiocy happening in Edmonton and Long Island. There are just otherworldly forces there making those teams the essence of suck.

I didn't say superstars. I said "guys that you can build a winner with". That means NHL-ready 1st rounders that are on an entry level contract so that you have the cap room to build a winner. A guy doesn't have to be Sidney Crosby but they're growing stars that are 1st line NHL players without being paid like one. The only way to get a player like that now is to draft him because trading for one would cost you a hell of a lot more than a draft pick.

Yes, you can get good players in the later rounds of the draft. If you couldn't, there would only be one round but the higher you pick, the better chance you have. In the salary cap era, the best chance you have at building a winner is the draft.
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Old 03-26-2014, 11:25 PM   #13684
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Does it matter? You make it sound like he did nothing other than put the Anaheim puzzle pieces together...

Lupul, Gardiner, Kessel, Van Riemsdyk... I'd say those players are pretty significant and important to the Maple Leafs wouldn't you?
Yep. And they're totally going to make the playoffs.

Would you rather have Phil Kessel or Tyler Seguin and Dougie Hamilton?

I'll give him all the credit in the world for the Sergei Federov trade, though. That was amazing. Like selling snow to a penguin.
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Old 03-26-2014, 11:34 PM   #13685
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after watching that twitter video i went to look at the 2011 playoff games....fuck
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Old 03-26-2014, 11:42 PM   #13686
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Yep. And they're totally going to make the playoffs.

Would you rather have Phil Kessel or Tyler Seguin and Dougie Hamilton?

I'll give him all the credit in the world for the Sergei Federov trade, though. That was amazing. Like selling snow to a penguin.
Dougie Hamilton sucks, though, as he wasn't a top 5 pick ...
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Old 03-27-2014, 12:03 AM   #13687
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Detroit is the exception to the rule every single time.

Lottery picks was the wrong word but high picks...the sort where you just have to be terrible for. The Canucks either haven't been in that category or have squandered their chances in the 1st round. I realize that there are plenty of bad examples but...we have to think that we're in a better situation than the idiocy happening in Edmonton and Long Island. There are just otherworldly forces there making those teams the essence of suck.

I didn't say superstars. I said "guys that you can build a winner with". That means NHL-ready 1st rounders that are on an entry level contract so that you have the cap room to build a winner. A guy doesn't have to be Sidney Crosby but they're growing stars that are 1st line NHL players without being paid like one. The only way to get a player like that now is to draft him because trading for one would cost you a hell of a lot more than a draft pick.

Yes, you can get good players in the later rounds of the draft. If you couldn't, there would only be one round but the higher you pick, the better chance you have. In the salary cap era, the best chance you have at building a winner is the draft.
I agree with most of this, its all about moneyball right, I get the concept if you get a top pick and they produce like a top tier player but cause rookie status they get paid like ass right. But the whole tanking for a pick model imo is just wayyyyyyyy overvalued. Especially if it isn't going to be a top1-3 pick, we like to think they are these surefire top tier prospects but more often than not they flame out and never amount to shit and those who do take years to develop. If I recall the stats on first rounders amountign even to a NHL regular is something like 30%, of course its probably a bit higher if you only include lottery picks but still its essentially flipping a coin.

I feel like 07/08 drafts would be a good time to look to see how those picks turned out, for every Stamkos and Doughty there is a Luke Schenn 4th, Filatov 5th, Josh Bailey 9th, Kyle Beach 11th. At the time these were all thought of as great value picks and they are imo all busts and in between those guys Bogosian, Wilson, Boedker, and Coho they not busts but they didn't exactly alter a franchise either.

Looking at 07 in the top 10 guys other than Kane, like sure JVR-Couture-Voracek-Gagner are pretty solid now but most of them started out as 3rd liners and Couture didn't even crack the sharks until 3 years later. In between all of this is Hickey-Hamill-ellerby-Brandon Sutter pretty much imo all flops maybe not Sutter but I'm pretty sure at the time he was drafted it wasn't to be a career 3/4C.
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Old 03-27-2014, 12:03 AM   #13688
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Tanking the rest of the season, totally ruining locker room morale and having the fans endure the last handful of games watching our players "give up" is pathetic.
Watching them lose on purpose for the incremental chance to bump up a couple percentages of landing a higher pick that might or might not pan out for the next 5 years is retarded.

Over the past years, looking at ANY draft, you will find gems and busts littered throughout the 1st round. I would rather the Canucks still play their game and just let nature take it's course for the pick than intentionally lose the rest of their games.

my thoughts anyway.
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Old 03-27-2014, 12:04 AM   #13689
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Yep. And they're totally going to make the playoffs.

Would you rather have Phil Kessel or Tyler Seguin and Dougie Hamilton?

I'll give him all the credit in the world for the Sergei Federov trade, though. That was amazing. Like selling snow to a penguin.
I'd rather have Phil Kessel, actually. Just because he looks funny in pictures doesn't mean he's not a first-rate player and he isn't a polarizing presence to team-mates like Seguin is.

The Leafs were well into the playoffs (as much as it hurts me to say that since I hate them so much) before this losing streak. Dallas isn't making the playoffs last time I looked even with wonderboy Seguin, so not sure what your point is.
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Old 03-27-2014, 12:08 AM   #13690
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I agree with most of this, its all about moneyball right, I get the concept if you get a top pick and they produce like a top tier player but cause rookie status they get paid like ass right. But the whole tanking for a pick model imo is just wayyyyyyyy overvalued. Especially if it isn't going to be a top1-3 pick, we like to think they are these surefire top tier prospects but more often than not they flame out and never amount to shit and those who do take years to develop. If I recall the stats on first rounders amountign even to a NHL regular is something like 30%, of course its probably a bit higher if you only include lottery picks but still its essentially flipping a coin.

I feel like 07/08 drafts would be a good time to look to see how those picks turned out, for every Stamkos and Doughty there is a Luke Schenn 4th, Filatov 5th, Josh Bailey 9th, Kyle Beach 11th. At the time these were all thought of as great value picks and they are imo all busts and in between those guys Bogosian, Wilson, Boedker, and Coho they not busts but they didn't exactly alter a franchise either.

Looking at 07 in the top 10 guys other than Kane, like sure JVR-Couture-Voracek-Gagner are pretty solid now but most of them started out as 3rd liners and Couture didn't even crack the sharks until 3 years later. In between all of this is Hickey-Hamill-ellerby-Brandon Sutter pretty much imo all flops maybe not Sutter but I'm pretty sure at the time he was drafted it wasn't to be a career 3/4C.
Yes, I realize you can fuck it up like so many people have but that's like saying no one should be president because George W. Bush was.
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Old 03-27-2014, 12:13 AM   #13691
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I'm just saying its more or less a crapshoot, I don't think there should be this whole focus on tanking to get a slightly higher pick because more often than not it won't make a huge difference. The odds also of landing a true first liner is insanely rare and even rarer if you expect it from an 18 year old rookie. I'm not gonna debate the Kessel vs Seguin/Hamilton since I think they are all quality players but I will say the reason the leafs won't make the playoffs has nothing to do with Kessel and more a terrible coach and a shitty team that was looking half decent cause they were riding unstainable percentages.
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Old 03-27-2014, 12:16 AM   #13692
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The point is that good teams have depth and bad teams don't. The reason why we won PTs and went to the Finals in 2011 is because we had depth. The reason we haven't been as good the past couple of years is lack of depth (not helped at all by Torts' insistance in putting what little depth we have on IR). A #8 pick doesn't help our depth anymore than a #12 pick does in this draft.
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Old 03-27-2014, 12:27 AM   #13693
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I'd rather have Phil Kessel, actually. Just because he looks funny in pictures doesn't mean he's not a first-rate player and he isn't a polarizing presence to team-mates like Seguin is.

The Leafs were well into the playoffs (as much as it hurts me to say that since I hate them so much) before this losing streak. Dallas isn't making the playoffs last time I looked even with wonderboy Seguin, so not sure what your point is.
Because Dallas isn't the team that made the Kessel trade. The Bruins got a good deal for Seguin and it made them an even stronger hockey team.

Kessel isn't a terrible player. He's a very good player but Seguin looks to have a higher ceiling and Hamilton is a 6'5" d-man that looks to be a just slightly shorter Chara. Unless Kessel has a few 90-point season and Seguin tanks, I'd say the Bruins won the trade.
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Old 03-27-2014, 12:38 AM   #13694
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The point is that good teams have depth and bad teams don't. The reason why we won PTs and went to the Finals in 2011 is because we had depth. The reason we haven't been as good the past couple of years is lack of depth (not helped at all by Torts' insistance in putting what little depth we have on IR). A #8 pick doesn't help our depth anymore than a #12 pick does in this draft.
Yes, you're right but the best kind of depth is a young player on a entry level contract that can legitimately play in the top-6.

Because they give you not only a top-6 forward but allow you to use cap space to go after other players. That's the reality of the salary cap era. You're NEVER going to find top-6 forwards under a million otherwise. Veterans get paid more by default and the sort of vets that cost under a mill are the ones you just need to take a complete shot in the dark on like Mike Santorelli.

Someone mentioned Moneyball up top and if we're talking in those terms, then a player obtained through the draft gives you more opportunities to add goals (...er...runs, since Moneyball is about baseball) primarily through the players production and secondarily through the cap space they leave free.

Maybe they don't enter the league at 18 but the more good young players you have in the system, the better your chances. And the higher you draft, the better your chances. Even if your scouting staff is absolutely retarded, being able to draft higher increases your probability.
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Old 03-27-2014, 07:43 AM   #13695
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Does it matter? The Canucks aren't going to TANK. No respectable team will do it unless the GM builds the team not to succeed ie. Buffalo.

So enjoy the wins and or just get off the bandwagon.
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Old 03-27-2014, 12:31 PM   #13696
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Shanny at it again, Niederreiter will not be suspended




principle point of contact, clear head shot, could have stopped/slowed (or hit low and would be clean) but raises up his elbow and follows through his arm, predatory, blindside at the very least two games...
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Hello Kerry,

After watching Nino Niederreiter clobber Alex Burrows with an open-ice hit on Wednesday, do you think he should have gotten more than the two minutes for interference. He got him in the head with his shoulder!

Thanks,
Gary

Gary:

While I do not like the contact that Nino Niederreiter delivered to the head of Alexandre Burrows one bit, a two-minute penalty was about all the refs could assess on this play under the rules. A more meaningful and deserved penalty to Niederreiter should come his way via a Player Safety Committee review of this illegal check to the head.

I watched Mike Milbury's take on this play during the NBC intermission of the Rangers-Flyers game last night. Mike didn't agree with the "interference" call since the puck had just left Burrow's stick. Beyond that, Milbury's comments relative to the Niederreiter hit included, "I don't mind it. I think it's more than 2 minutes he should have got." (Which I interpret as no penalty was deserved in Mike's opinion.)
I completely agree with one element of Mike Milbury's assessment on this play; it was not interference! Nino Niederreiter however should be held accountable for the significant contact he delivered with his shoulder cap to the head of Alex Burrows from the side; which by the way I believe was avoidable.

For ongoing player safety this hit, and all similar in nature, need to be regarded as an illegal check to the head in violation of rule 48.2—on a hit resulting in contact with an opponent's head where the head was the main point of contact and such contact to the head was avoidable. That can only happen if those responsible for doling out punishment interpret the rule verbiage, "main point of contact" to mean "significant" contact to the head coupled with some/secondary contact with the body.

Alexandre Burrows lowered his posture to reach for a puck through the neutral zone. After gaining puck possession Burrows straightened to an upright body position, glided a couple of feet and then released the puck. Nino Niederreiter approached from the side angle position with his skates in a glide and his posture coiled (knees bent and flexed) to deliver a body check that would appear at, least through this setup, to make contact squarely through Burrows body. Just prior to delivering the hit Niederreiter stiffened his legs, thereby elevating his posture significantly upwards towards the head of Burrows. From this strike position, Niederreiter slipped his body just off the center line of Burrows and continued to elevate his shoulder that made significant contact with the head of Alex Burrows. The contact delivered off the center body line and to the head of Burrows resulted in a helicopter freefall for the Vancouver Canuck player.

I doubt very much we would even be talking about this play if Nino Niederreiter had maintained a lowered and flexed posture from the setup and approach through contact of his intended hit on Alexandre Burrows. Like most players however, Neiderrreiter made the dangerous decision to increase velocity through the hit by straightening with an upward drive of his legs and shoulder cap that had no other place to connect than the head area of his opponent.

Rule 48.1 (i) (ii) (iii) provides lots of 'reasons' to determine whether contact with an opponent's head was avoidable. Practically all of these allowances place considerable onus on the recipient/victim of the hit. From (iii) Alexandre Burrows did not "materially change the position of his body or head immediately prior to or simultaneously with the hit in a way that significantly contributed to the head contact." The material change in position came from Nino Niederreiter. If the rule verbiage doesn't qualify hits of this nature as a "head pick," at the very least it needs to be acknowledged that significant contact resulted from an illegal hit to the head in an ongoing effort to hold players accountable.
Kerry says pretty much the same
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Old 03-27-2014, 12:37 PM   #13697
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If Kassian hit someone like that, he's get suspended for sure. But Burrows was the victim, so justice is served according to league execs, right?

Kerry Fraser should take over Shanahan's job.
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Old 03-27-2014, 12:47 PM   #13698
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Kerry Fraser should take over Shanahan's job.
This.
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Old 03-27-2014, 03:02 PM   #13699
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if MG is Aquaman's puppet, Shanny is probably a puppet too. So I'm not sure if placing Fraser in his place would do much good. *shrug* who knows..
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Old 03-27-2014, 03:15 PM   #13700
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That's a 2 minute minor for high sticking? Almost missed his helmet and hit him on the neck!

Pretty gutless call by the ref, IMO.
From Knights' goalie Stolarz suspended eight games by OHL for stick-swinging - The Globe and Mail:

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London Knights goaltender Anthony Stolarz has been suspended eight games for swinging his stick at the head of Windsor Spitfires forward Josh Ho-Sang, the Ontario Hockey League team announced Wednesday.
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