The Official 2013/2014 Canucks & NHL Thread

[trancehead]

at least be realistic big E

[m3thods]

Originally Posted by AzNightmare

Even if, for sake of argument, say Horvat becomes the next Toews or something,
it'll happen when he has no one else to play with, after all our current elites are washed up.

I'll try to stay positive and do what I can to cheer for this team... but yeah, I see a pretty tough future.

If you look at Toews rookie year, he really only had Kane to play with. Maybe Sharp, but he wasn't the same player back then. What happened with that team was while Toews and Kane came cheap, the surrounding players all grew up with them to create that crazy core (Sharp, Keith, Seabrook, Ladd, Bolland, Byfuglien). The "hope" (and I say that with a smirk because knowing the Canucks, it's more a dream) is that Bo and Hunter will step onto the team with fellow young players Corrado, Tanev, Gaunce, etc and create the next young core for the Canucks.

What makes Toews a top 5 center in the NHL isn't his skill set. It's his ability to lead by example and provide in clutch moments. If I were starting a new team and Sid was taken, I'd pick Mr. Toews as my cornerstone. I don't watch many London Knight games, but you don't really see/hear the same things said about Horvat in that prestigious program. Toews is a very special player.

Hoping Horvat is the next Toews is a tall order- Toews was already a WJHC legend before stepping into the NHL. You could see the type of player he was going to be before he even started his rookie year. There's no such thing with Horvat. If he were to project as someone like Andrew Ladd or David Backes, then I'd be VERY happy.

[Mike Oxbig]

^Agree with toews is a top player not by his skill set but his ability to provide in clutch moments. I remember the toews draft... he was suppose to be the #1 pick but st.louis and pits drafted the position they need. So dont blame the oilers for picking yakupov over murray.

Avs probably will be looking like the blackhawks in a few year
mackinnon = toews
Duchene = kane
+ they have landeskog o'reilly, EJ

[m3thods]

Originally Posted by Big Earl

^Agree with toews is a top player not by his skill set but his ability to provide in clutch moments. I remember the toews draft... he was suppose to be the #1 pick but st.louis and pits drafted the position they need. So dont blame the oilers for picking yakupov over murray.

Avs probably will be looking like the blackhawks in a few year
mackinnon = toews
Duchene = kane
+ they have landeskog o'reilly, EJ

The Avs are going to need some defensemen first. EJ looks to be a late bloomer, but nobody else screams top-tier like a Keith-Seabrook or even HJALAAKJAAMALALASSON (not that Nik is top tier, but he's a solid top-4). But I agree they finally look like they're on the up-and-up. Moreso than the Oilers who had a head-start.

[MR_BIGGS]

Speaking of draft picks, looking at the Oiler's track record, it would be interesting to know what this team looks like if they drafted these guys instead. Obviously hindsight is 20/20, but there's a good variety of different types of players/positions:

2012 – Alex Galchenyuk
2011 – Jonathan Huberdeau
2010 – Tyler Seguin
2009 – Nick Leddy
2008 – They did well with the Eberle pick (22nd overall)
2007 – Logan Couture/Ryan McDonagh

[highfive]

Originally Posted by MR_BIGGS

Speaking of draft picks, looking at the Oiler's track record, it would be interesting to know what this team looks like if they drafted these guys instead. Obviously hindsight is 20/20, but there's a good variety of different types of players/positions:

2012 – Alex Galchenyuk
2011 – Jonathan Huberdeau
2010 – Tyler Seguin
2009 – Nick Leddy
2008 – They did well with the Eberle pick (22nd overall)
2007 – Logan Couture/Ryan McDonagh

Nick Leddy? Guy who was traded for Cam Barker?

Ryan O'Reilly should've been picked higher then.

[m3thods]

Originally Posted by MR_BIGGS

Speaking of draft picks, looking at the Oiler's track record, it would be interesting to know what this team looks like if they drafted these guys instead. Obviously hindsight is 20/20, but there's a good variety of different types of players/positions:

2012 – Alex Galchenyuk
2011 – Jonathan Huberdeau
2010 – Tyler Seguin
2009 – Nick Leddy
2008 – They did well with the Eberle pick (22nd overall)
2007 – Logan Couture/Ryan McDonagh

For the lazy, you should list who the Oilers picked in those years.

2012 should've been Murray. They were lucky to get Schultz since he was basically sold on a dream of growing up with a young core and envisioning a Chicago/Pittsburgh type of rise to power.

Not that he was a missing piece for a cup run last year, but it would've been nice to have him quarterbacking the PP. That said, AV probably would've sat him down given his defensive prowess.

Aside from that mini-rant, Seguin and Couture would've been great additions. That said, Hall isn't a bad player but a skilled center is always harder to find. Couture iirc was a late first-rounder so a lot of teams missed on him.

[MR_BIGGS]

Originally Posted by highfive

Nick Leddy? Guy who was traded for Cam Barker?

Ryan O'Reilly should've been picked higher then.

Yes, the guy who was signed to a two-year deal with the deep Hawks team. He's top three fastest skater on the Hawks and can actually play both sides of the rink well.

I tried to stick to first round picks that aren't that much lower than where the Oilers picked.

[MR_BIGGS]

It's funny that the Oilers got rid of Tambellini with MacT citing that he wasn't enough of a risk taker and took the safe road in trades. Tamby just got a job with the Ducks as a part-time scout.

If the Oilers are going to turn things around, they need to get rid of their executive team. It will not happen unless they step down. They are besties with the owner, Katz.

[UFO]

Originally Posted by Big Earl

im just fantasizing the possibilities, nice to know you guys are quick to join in on the gangbang for fails

dreaming pretty small if that is your fantasy lineup
Posted via RS Mobile

[UFO]

Originally Posted by m3thods

Hoping Horvat is the next Toews is a tall order- Toews was already a WJHC legend before stepping into the NHL. You could see the type of player he was going to be before he even started his rookie year. There's no such thing with Horvat. If he were to project as someone like Andrew Ladd or David Backes, then I'd be VERY happy.

Having said that there are many first round picks who never pan out regardless of how highly they were touted in the various junior systems. Patrik Stefan anybody? and unfortunately it seems like kassian is also heading down that track
Posted via RS Mobile

[GrapeDrink]

^ this, the truth that no one wants to hear is outside of the top 5 picks of each draft, the stats are something like 30% chance of landing a NHL player in the first round(I believe the guideline they used was 100 games+ in career to define nhl player). But of course everyone thinks their prospect is the next big thing, essentially from a purely statistical POV one of Guance/Hunter/Horvat should turn out to be a solid player lol, but everyone seems to assume those 3 + every other 1st and 2nd and 3rd and 4th round pick canucks made will be regulars in next 2 years lol.

Also another rant in terms of the Logan Couture pick. Couture was not very highly regarded at all because of concussion/injuries/poor skating . Just because it ended up working out for SJ lol doesn't mean it would have been the "right" pick for oilers. With their development team .. lol couture probably flamed out of the league already after burning his ELC's and blowing chunks on the 4th line.

[m3thods]

Originally Posted by UFO

Having said that there are many first round picks who never pan out regardless of how highly they were touted in the various junior systems. Patrik Stefan anybody? and unfortunately it seems like kassian is also heading down that track
Posted via RS Mobile

Yes that's true, though I didn't say all first rounders should be impact players. I just provided context as to why I think Horvat shouldn't be hoped for as being a possible Toews comparable. That said, I did have high hopes for Peter Meuller, who was every bit as clutch as Toews in that WJHC. Unfortunately it looks like concussions set him on a course where he can't recover from.

As I said earlier, if Horvat could project to a player like Backes or Ladd, then I think that's a successful 9th overall pick. Those two guys "play the game the right way," and command a dressing room with their leading by example. Hearing the "if Horvat can be Toews/Hunter like Kane" statements on the Team1040 make me laugh and cry at the same time because of the stupidity of the statement.

That entire 99 draft was horse-crap. It was essentially the Sedins and everyone else.

[Jmac]

83% of facts are made up

[highfive]

Wasn't Horvat more compared to Bergeron type player?

[m3thods]

Originally Posted by highfive

Wasn't Horvat more compared to Bergeron type player?

Looking around really quickly it looks like sites have him projected as a second-line center. That would definitely fit the Bergeron comparison. Horvat is said to possess high hockey-IQ as well as a beast in the faceoff circle (in JR), so that would suggest that you are correct.

[pastarocket]

Torts is shuffling the first and second lines. Good move to split up the twins. Henrik plays with Higgins and Hansen and Daniel plays with Santorelli and Kesler.

Santorelli's play this season has been one of the best among the team. Let's see what kind of magic Mike can produce with Daniel and Kesler.

Burrows is demoted to the third line.

Stuck in five-game losing streak, Canucks shakeup lines | News1130

[UFO]

Originally Posted by m3thods

Yes that's true, though I didn't say all first rounders should be impact players. I just provided context as to why I think Horvat shouldn't be hoped for as being a possible Toews comparable.

As I said earlier, if Horvat could project to a player like Backes or Ladd, then I think that's a successful 9th overall pick. Those two guys "play the game the right way," and command a dressing room with their leading by example. Hearing the "if Horvat can be Toews/Hunter like Kane" statements on the Team1040 make me laugh and cry at the same time because of the stupidity of the statement.

Totally, I know what you were getting at with Toews, just wanted to point out that nothing is ever a homerun. Its all about odds, and regardless of how much of a WJHC legend Toews was, translating success at that level into the NHL level is dependent on so many other things. IMO you cant say you know the type of player he'll be even before playing a single NHL game, those statements gets saved for generational players like your Gretzky's and Crosby's.

Onto Bo/Hunter vs. Toews/Kane, why can't they turn out to be like those too? Bo/Hunter are still both so young and raw, their development still has so far to go. We don't know their ceiling, we can only guess based on what their skillset shows us currently (and even then, if we were that good at guessing we'd all have jobs as scouts). We don't know their actual work ethic to make themselves better once they make the big time. It's important to keep it real, but outside of what we are told by the media, we know absolutely nothing about these kids. Projecting 18 year old boys to seasoned and established NHL men is complete utter BS IMO. Some kids have all the skill but not the determination, while some are the other way around. That what makes the draft, especially at the ages currently, such a crapshoot.

[m3thods]

Special players tend to be very obvious in terms of their "impact" early in their career. Toews, Kane, Crosby, Stamkos (though you could argue he wasn't ready), Ovie, Malkin (though he had to run away from Russia), Doughty, Tavares, the list goes on. It doesn't have to be just the generational players like Orr, Gretz, and Crosby.

Sticking close to home, you can think of Naslund, the Sedins, and Bertuzzi as late-bloomers. This was in-part due to their dedication to their craft and their perseverence. So yes, you're right in saying that since we don't know how these young boys will react when they hit the NHL, we can't really project them (which I agree is complete bs as well, but we do it anyways to pass the time).

However to keep with our theme of odds and probability and since we're playing the projection game anyways, I'm saying that people shouldn't compare Bo/Hunter to Toews/Kane because the latter were "can't miss prospects". Bo/Hunter were first rounders in a very deep draft (allegedly, not my words), so that doesn't discount their skill and upside. But all I'm saying is that the Toews/Kane comparisons are, most likely, really pie-in-the-sky wishful thinking.

[highfive]

I actually find it stupid to compare Hunter to Kane.

I hear how Bo has all the leadership qualities etc etc that can be comparable to Bergeron and Toews.

But it was Hunter who stood out after the draft. The way he talks, the way he presents himself and then seeing him play during training camp. This kid has way more leadership qualities than Kane IMO.

[Ikkaku]

2009 IIHF U20 Championship leading scorer - Cody Hodgson

Jordan Schroeder also set an american record for most assists in a tournament. He was 3rd in scoring on team USA in his debut tournament, and second in scoring on his second tournament. JVR lead team USA in both.

If our scouting was based on junior tournaments, I think they did a half decent job.

[m3thods]

Originally Posted by highfive

I actually find it stupid to compare Hunter to Kane.

I hear how Bo has all the leadership qualities etc etc that can be comparable to Bergeron and Toews.

But it was Hunter who stood out after the draft. The way he talks, the way he presents himself and then seeing him play during training camp. This kid has way more leadership qualities than Kane IMO.

lol I don't think Kane is looked upon for leadership. But he likely possesses the slickest hands in the entire league (and as far as I can remember, I can't think of someone who had better hands). So I think it's safe to say that when we say Hunter == Kane, we mean his scoring prowess.

Originally Posted by Ikkaku

2009 IIHF U20 Championship leading scorer - Cody Hodgson

Jordan Schroeder also set an american record for most assists in a tournament. He was 3rd in scoring on team USA in his debut tournament, and second in scoring on his second tournament. JVR lead team USA in both.

If our scouting was based on junior tournaments, I think they did a half decent job.

I think everyone here can agree that the Canucks (and especially AV) mishandled Coho. Right?

To an extent, you can say that about Schroeder. Though perhaps he fell in his draft for a reason. He's almost turning into a Brule- a high-scoring JR player forced into a different role by the team that drafted him and can't adapt.

[Mike Oxbig]

It's not the way the prospects are being developed, its the hockey market we are in, we never believe in the kids we draft.

[m3thods]

^Dang if only we believed in Patrick White and Prab Rai a bit more. We'd have the next Crosby and Bure!

[Mike Oxbig]

^ Lol talking about players who are not first round picks or making the world juniors. Good one!