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Old 08-30-2013, 01:21 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowside67 View Post

2) Statutory rape and physical rape are both wrong but are not the same crime and are [and should be] treated differently.[/b]

Mark
Well, first in regards to Phil, let's all remember that he's a bit older and has a daughter in this age range that we are all discussing.

It's a little different when you can go from nameless, hypothetical child on the internet to "what would happen if this were MY child"

Second. Stat rape and physical rape ARE different, sure. But are they?

You know the statistics for a full on, woman running in the park rape are actually surprisingly low? Most "rape" is actually date rape and such where a woman said no and the perpetrator went ahead anyway.

I'm not trying to demean anyone's rape here. The point I'm trying to make is you don't ALWAYS need to beat the shit out of a woman to rape her.

If she is so drunk that she is passing out and cannot inform consent...it is rape. But we've heard all over this forum that she wanted it, and its her fault because she shouldn't have been drinking around guys, because they get all rapey on a saturday night.

So this is why Phil is a little upset, and I'm a little upset and Dino takes things just a hair more personally, because in the face of such stupidity, it makes our heads spin.

I'm sorry, I am actually NOT trying to be offensive with that. I'm really not.

But the opinions actually get to the point where it is so stupid its offensive.

The teacher was 54.

You are never going to convince me that it is ok for a 54 year old man to have sex with a 14 year old. It is wrong, and thank god..illegal.

He was in a position of authority. Makes it even more wrong.

It would be wrong for him to have sex with her, in my mind up to the age of 18. Just not illegal.

I can condemn him socially at that point, because it is my opinion, but I cannot have him held without changing the laws of the country.

But let me be clear: Arguing that statutory rape is somehow different than "physical" rape is a misnomer. He may not have used fists and duct tape, but he manipulated a young girl into providing physical satisfaction and gratification for himself.

It ain't right.
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Old 08-30-2013, 01:23 PM   #52
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Forgot to log her out, if you are curious why dino is talking about herself in the 3rd person
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Old 08-30-2013, 01:29 PM   #53
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Dear diary, today I learned that Dinosaur and Gridlock are the same person.
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Old 08-30-2013, 01:37 PM   #54
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coming from the guy willing to "bash a guys head in" based on an opinion over the internet?

lets go back to grade 3 and learn to read bud, not 1 single person in the entire thread said that rape was good.. nor that this wasnt statutory rape.

simply compared severity and it was a good point... go back to my post about how ALL laws carry levels of severity... and this should be no different.

also. for someone who runs a "shop" you should consider acting a little more professional.
You know Hitler had an opinion.
Ulics opinion translates as such.
Its ok if shes slutty and under age. Its ok if she consented even tho she is grossly underage. Its not as bad as "real rape" she didnt get beat up. I know Ulic nor any of you said rape was ok but Ulic and many of you denounce the severity and merrit of some rape situations and thats disgusting. Rape is Rape.

Dino is right this is a very sensitive subject for me having a daughter not much older and I have to trust the people she's in the care of during the day wont take advantage of her. My family has also been thru a rape. But it was just a lowly not real date rape (Ulic would say that) she was on a date then taken into an alley and raped behind a dumpster and left there drunk embarrassed and confused. It messed her up!
Perhaps none of you have any insight to a teenage girls developing mind but I do. I raised a teenage girl by myself. Its not a very stable secure or always happy place. Its a confused lonely dark place full of uncertainty and looking for someone to trust and easily confused. They do not have the conviction strength or confidence of a woman in her 20's or older.
So I would bash a guys head in for a kid. Its not predatory its defensive. Someone has to stick up for the them cus its clear so many men wont, they make excuses as to justify actions instead of preventing them.
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Old 08-30-2013, 01:40 PM   #55
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But the opinions actually get to the point where it is so stupid its offensive.

...

You are never going to convince me that it is ok for a 54 year old man to have sex with a 14 year old. It is wrong, and thank god..illegal.
Thanks for rehashing the same thing for the 11th time... just to make this plain so it is clear for all: everybody in this thread is in agreement that this it is not legal OR morally correct for a 54 year old to have sex with a 14 year old.

The question being discussed is whether her knowingly going along with it (I wont say instigating it as we have no idea what happened, but that certainly does happen... there is no shortage of young, if confused, girls with older man fantasies) is the same crime as him having a friend duct-tape over her mouth and physically restrain her while she is kicking and screaming to get away. My opinion, and that of several people in this thread is that it is WRONG but it is not the SAME.

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It would be wrong for him to have sex with her, in my mind up to the age of 18. Just not illegal.

It ain't right.
So what exactly changes from the day before her 18th birthday to the day after? This is the whole problem with this line in the sand at any age is it just isn't logical.

No person magically transforms from an "irresponsible child incapable of deciding whether they should be seeking sexual gratification regardless of how it may affect them emotionally" when they are 17 to a "sophisticated adult capable of distinguishing between motives for the same sexual gratification" overnight.

I agree there needs to be a line in the sand as it's unenforceable without an exact limit, but age is actually a really shitty measure of one's ability to make intelligent decisions. I've met 14 year olds that I would trust their judgement and emotional intelligence over other 21 year olds.

In before somebody somehow misconstrues this as I support raping underage children...

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Old 08-30-2013, 01:42 PM   #56
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You know Hitler had an opinion.

...

So I would bash a guys head in for a kid. Its not predatory its defensive
Hitler's opinion was actually that he had a better idea than everybody else what morally correct and right - and he was not opposed to using violence to accomplish his agenda. Which is actually exactly what you are suggesting in your post.

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Old 08-30-2013, 01:42 PM   #57
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Dinosaur, somehow u think that this 14yr old girl had no choice than to sleep with teacher. If she didnt wanna do it she wouldnt of. The way I see it is that she liked the teacher, slept with him, had a relationship with him. As soon as there relstionship was exposed she was known as "that girl". Few years later she still couldn't shake off that reputation then RIP
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Old 08-30-2013, 01:52 PM   #58
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Well, first in regards to Phil, let's all remember that he's a bit older and has a daughter in this age range that we are all discussing.

It's a little different when you can go from nameless, hypothetical child on the internet to "what would happen if this were MY child"
This.

Not to mention one of the posts he's arguing against starts off with "so if i fuck your slutty 14 year old daughter that willingly seduced me" it's hard not to have it strike a chord with a father...
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Old 08-30-2013, 01:53 PM   #59
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Dinosaur, somehow u think that this 14yr old girl had no choice than to sleep with teacher. If she didnt wanna do it she wouldnt of. The way I see it is that she liked the teacher, slept with him, had a relationship with him. As soon as there relstionship was exposed she was known as "that girl". Few years later she still couldn't shake off that reputation then RIP
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So some quality victim blaming/slut shaming.

I'm saying she could make the choice all she wanted, but she was in no way mentally prepared to make that choice, and understand the ramifications of it.

As such, she killed herslef. Why? Because she got a little older, and removed from the situation and started realizing the consequences...but I do recognize that this is complete conjecture.

She may have been bored or sumthin.
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Old 08-30-2013, 01:54 PM   #60
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Woah woah, we're now treading into really obscene areas when we begin drawing comparisons with Hitler. That's a whole other conversation that has no place in one such as this where we should simply agree to disagree.

Nobody here has a problem with however sensitive the subject may or may not be to you. As a whole I'd like to believe that we are capable of sympathy and understanding. Once again, and this will be the last time myself and/or others should repeat this, nobody is saying rape in any way shape or form is okay, no matter how slutty or underage what have you.
The merit and severity of individual events that can bring rape into question, however, DOES matter, and from a legal point of view I would find it hardpressed for you to be able to dispute that.

I apologize if I may appear to be attacking your point of view, or trying to defer the seriousness of rape in itself and what you have gone through. But situations like these are NOT THE NORM, and although it is undoubtedly beneficial to be wary they happen, to live in fear of something like this would truly devalue one's life experiences.

Correct, few of us know what it's like watching a teenage girl mature - however, given the proper outlook on life and providing them with the necessary resources to make proper decisions, I have faith that most would be able to keep themselves out of situations like this. Simply put, this is an isolated circumstance and story that shouldn't be perceived as a regular occurrence.

Anyway, I will stand by the notion that this topic does hit home to you. It is a scary world out there. But attempting to maintain an objective point of view when debating about a topic very sensitive to you probably isn't the best approach.
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Old 08-30-2013, 02:04 PM   #61
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and this is exactly why some of the laws here are so fucked and people like this slip through the system with 1 month in jail.... because this ISNT BLACK AND WHITE!

what im trying to say is if they had some sort of system, sure.. he wouldnt serve 15 years... but at least he would serve 5 or something like that because a system has been established for situations like this regardless of how isolated.

keep ignoring logic.. law isnt based on emotion. if it was im sure this guy would have been serving much longer than a couple weeks
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Old 08-30-2013, 02:05 PM   #62
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Some of you may think you know what Ulic meant, but it's certainly not how some of his posts come off. I don't blame Phil for being pissed off.

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uh huh.

so if i fuck your slutty 14 year old daughter that willingly seduced me

vs

if i brutally force myself into a woman while she screams in agony and is trying to get away from me.

both are rape i guess. for the people that have a very limited vocabulary. lol.

oh second example i stick a tire iron up her cunt too. and my buddies stick it in her pooper.

yeah, i am implying its not rape. and so is the judge. idiots.
Now I'm not sure how that comes off to most of you, but it sure as hell doesn't say "Yes, I believe all rape is wrong, and that certain types of rape should possibly be treated differently than others".
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Old 08-30-2013, 02:09 PM   #63
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Bingo! Freakshow thankyou!
Theres a few of us in this thread with "reading comprehension"
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Old 08-30-2013, 02:13 PM   #64
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Ulic was being sarcastic @PHIL
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Old 08-30-2013, 02:15 PM   #65
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@rise

none of that takes away from any of my posts saying that there should be a system based on severity of crime, your pissing contest with Ulic wont change that.

or there could be no system for situations like this... and people can continue to fall through the cracks with minimal punishment... your call
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Old 08-30-2013, 02:22 PM   #66
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Ulic was being sarcastic @PHIL
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No, he wasn't. That was reply number 7 in the whole thread.
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Old 08-30-2013, 03:26 PM   #67
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So what exactly changes from the day before her 18th birthday to the day after? This is the whole problem with this line in the sand at any age is it just isn't logical.

No person magically transforms from an "irresponsible child incapable of deciding whether they should be seeking sexual gratification regardless of how it may affect them emotionally" when they are 17 to a "sophisticated adult capable of distinguishing between motives for the same sexual gratification" overnight.

I agree there needs to be a line in the sand as it's unenforceable without an exact limit, but age is actually a really shitty measure of one's ability to make intelligent decisions. I've met 14 year olds that I would trust their judgement and emotional intelligence over other 21 year olds.

In before somebody somehow misconstrues this as I support raping underage children...

Mark
I understand what you are trying to say, but this is a weak argument.

You can make the same statement to driving, voting, drinking, buying cigarettes, gambling, etc.

These types of laws are in place based on brain development. In fact, a human brain does not reach its full development until about 23 year old.
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Old 08-30-2013, 03:27 PM   #68
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Dear diary, today I learned that Dinosaur and Gridlock are the same person.
wait so is it dino or gridlock thanking this post?
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Old 08-30-2013, 03:34 PM   #69
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wait so is it dino or gridlock thanking this post?
we're all back to where we belong

I make one little mistake, and chaos ensues.
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Old 08-30-2013, 03:36 PM   #70
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full development until about 23 year old.
as evidenced by Revscene.
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Old 08-30-2013, 03:38 PM   #71
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we're all back to where we belong

I make one little mistake, and chaos ensues.
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Old 08-30-2013, 03:41 PM   #72
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Old 08-30-2013, 06:12 PM   #73
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so the guy "statutory raped" her.

so you guys blame him for her suicide?
Not necessarily what's being suggested, perhaps a better look at the situation is in order. Maybe if we analyze instead how society treats victims of situations such as this, we'll have the answer to her suicide.

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that is a completely separate issue from the girl's suicide.
what if they found out she fucked other men? what if she woulda killed herself regardless of who she seduced.

the man is a loser for doing what he did.

and the girl was probably a bigger loser and if she didn't kill herself, she'd definitely grow up to be a bigger loser.
There's an awful lot of what if's in very few lines there. Lets stick to what we DO know about this situation. An adult (cognitively, emotionally and physically matured) took advantage and sexually abused a young, impressionable girl who was definitely NOT cognitively or emotionally or physically prepared for what happened. Instead of focusing on the rape date and the suicide date as two seperate entities lets consider the impact the rape and its complete lack of consequences had on the young girl. Think about the reactions here in this thread and how many people are so quick to assume that she could have a full grasp of consequences of her own actions.

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listen, if i were 14 again and i could seduce my hot teacher... i would. and i would know exactly what the fuck i was doing. everything i did when i was 14 i knew exactly what i was doing and what consequences there were.
Not everyone is you... and when I look back at my own youth, I think about some of the stuff I did and I think "damn that was stupid" ...it was stupid because I couldn't see my behavior "then" as I can now. That's what happens when someone matures in a physical, cognitive and emotional fashion. They learn shit. I suppose it could be argued that you're just as stupid now as you were when you were 14 though

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look at the big picture, no matter what under the law he's gonna get viewed as a "rapist". even if they were totally in love, even if she drugged him and strapped him down and "raped" him. he, under gridlock and dinosaurs mentality, would still have technically "raped" her. he CANNOT win.

plus back to the original topic... obviously the judge sees this predicament. and lowered his sentence.

and obviously, there's a focus on the fact that she's a troubled youth. you can't blame everyone the baby shits on before it takes a fall.
Are you really suggesting that an adult male is powerless and incapable of defending himself against being strapped down by a 14 year old girl?

Perhaps if that adult male lacks the cognitive ability to assess the situation at hand (Young girl asking him into an inappropriate circumstance based on your own theoretical scenario of her drugging him) and staying out of it.... perhaps YOU yourself lack that ability. Or perhaps you have the ability to assess your life situations and know something is wrong and do it anyways... which is why in your theoretical scenario of her drugging and roping him, the man will still be at fault. He never should've put himself in that situation to begin with. That's how adults are supposed to think, that's how this teacher, not just an adult but an adult in a position of power and authority over the young girl who was in his care and responsibility was supposed to think.

14 year old girls when you see them dressing provocatively they're not fully aware yet of the impact dressing in such a manner can have. That's why normal people upon seeing such outfits, typically wonder what on earth the parents are thinking letting their kids out like that . A 14 year old, a child, does not comprehend the same way we do in which clothes can be used to illicit a reaction. A 14 year old doesn't typically dress like a "slut" to "get some action" -- She does so because peer pressure and example has led her to believe that it is "cool" and she tries to fit in. That's why if you "fuck a slutty 14 year old daughter that willingly seduced you" you're in the wrong, her brain literally has not developed enough for her to fully grasp and understand her own actions.
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Old 08-31-2013, 06:25 PM   #74
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also. for someone who runs a "shop" you should consider acting a little more professional.
I'd like to address this.

He's got my support. NOT because we share the same opinion, but goddamn, thanks for having one!

How easy would it be for him to sit there and placate any opinion whether he agrees with it, disagrees with it or whatever for the almighty dollar.

Here we have a sponsor that actually USES the site and actually USES his opinion as opposed to "here, buy my shit" posts left right and center.

I think that's pretty awesome actually.

If you agree that this is pretty awesome, then we need to be able to separate the man from the business.
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Old 08-31-2013, 06:36 PM   #75
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On a side note


A guy in the US was sentenced to life in prison for web dating and carrying on short term relationships with women because they got so drunk on the first date they dont remember consenting to sex with him but their sexual relationships continued for a couple weeks after that and they still keep the presents he's bought them but they're scorned because he broke it off with them and they found out that he lied about his wealth and career (he told them he was an astronaut or doctor or from money etc etc)

no link sorry this was on a show the other night i think it was Dateline or 20/20
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