School districts across B.C. planning deep cuts to balance budgets

[freakshow]

scumbag teacher meme:

It's not about the wages!

Continues to ask for more wages and signing bonus

edit: i'm sure you could say similar things about the govt, but that's pretty ironic

[Traum]

If the government were smart, they should concede on class size and special needs staff, and only stand firm on minimal salary increases, perhaps even less than what they are offering now. The class size and special needs issues have already been ruled by the provincial supreme court, so they are merely abiding by the court's decision. (I think it makes perfect sense to just do what the supreme court ruling tells you to do, isn't it?)

With an offer like that, I am almost certain that public support for teachers will evaporate if BCTF doesn't accept it. The public will then rightfully accuse the BCTF and teachers as a bunch of fxxking greedy bastards.

But no, the government has to get what they want. What a bunch of dumbasses...

[Soundy]

Originally Posted by Traum

But no, the BCTF has to get what they want. What a bunch of dumbasses...

Works both ways.

[Traum]

Originally Posted by Soundy

Works both ways.

Perhaps so. But the fact of the matter is (and this is really what counts), the BCTF and the Liberals have some longstanding bad blood between them, and there is deep mistrust from both sides towards the other. How do you even bridge a gap this wide?

Also, do not forget the power difference between the two sides. No matter how you look at it, as the employer and legislator, the provincial government is always the one that has the upper hand, and they have taken advantage of their upper hand time and again in the past -- namely by legislating the teachers back to work in the past, and recently openly disrespecting the supreme court's ruling to roll back the class size limit. In that sense, the provincial government is very much the hard, high wall while the teachers are the eggs that are trying to break against it...

[Mike Oxbig]

BC gov should just allow new teachers to apply teaching with a lower salary to replace these greedy teachers that strike.

With a 15-20% roll back on the teacher salary, they can either be employed or unemployed. These assholes needs an ultimatum.

[MG1]

With all due respect, stick to hockey, my friend. And come back when you have kids. It might also help to read some of the posts in this thread, instead of jumping in like this was a Canucks thread.

god bless

[Soundy]

Originally Posted by Traum

Perhaps so. But the fact of the matter is (and this is really what counts), the BCTF and every BC government have some longstanding bad blood between them, and there is deep mistrust from both sides towards the other. How do you even bridge a gap this wide?

Fixed that for you.

Also, do not forget the power difference between the two sides. No matter how you look at it, as the employer and legislator, the provincial government is always the one that has the upper hand,

That's true of any employer/employee relationship, including other trade unions, both private and public sector. And yet hundreds of unions and hundreds of thousands of workers in BC make it through every day without this kind of idiocy.

[Traum]

Originally Posted by Soundy

Fixed that for you.

Labour disputes and head butting with other non-BC Liberals government, yes. Bad blood and a general lack of dis-trust as serious as what the two sides have now? Never in the 20-something years that I have known the BC public education system.

Originally Posted by Soundy

That's true of any employer/employee relationship, including other trade unions, both private and public sector. And yet hundreds of unions and hundreds of thousands of workers in BC make it through every day without this kind of idiocy.

Soundy, you are a reasonable fella. So please answer me this -- do these hundreds of unions and hundreds of thousands of workers in BC get legislated back to work against their will? Do they get a unilateral contract with unfavourable terms stuff down their throats? Is it difficult to see why the BCTF hates this government's guts?

The single most serious BC labour dispute that I remember is the Coast Mountain Bus multi-month (3-4 months?) strike back in the early 2000's. If you ask me, the repercussions of that strike is far more long-reaching and carried a significantly bigger impact to the majority of local residents than the several strikes that the BCTF has put on over the years. In the end, I think the bus drivers got legislated back to work as well, but that was after a solid 3-4 months. And I think that only happened once.

Now look at Toronto's city garbage pick up strike that happened in the summer a few years ago. Again, I would say this is a far more long-reaching job action, and carries far more impact than our BCTF's various job actions -- it had the potential to turn into a serious public health concern. As far as I can remember, the City of Toronto didn't legislate the garbage pick up people back to work.

What I am trying to say is, our current provincial government doesn't even have the slightest respect for our teachers (and their cruddy union) to exercise their right to take job action. And I am going to remind you that the same government also doesn't seem to respect a decision coming straight from the provincial supreme court. When an employer behaves this way, how can it expect its employees to have any respect for itself?

[freakshow]

Traum, unfortunately, I think it's hard for most people sympathize with a union in general. The govt aren't angels, I actually hate crusty clark.. but I hate unions more.

[capt_slo]

Since the topic of inaccurate / skewed campaigning has been raised, I'll point out that it is not just the Government doing this.

How many teachers have you heard complaining about the years of 0% wage increases? Many. But what they don't tell you is that teachers are still getting pay raises every year.

Raises through the teacher's salary grid.

Example:

The salary grid also provides automatic salary increases year over year for accumulated teaching experience to a maximum of 10 years. These are referred to as "Steps" in the grid. Steps begin at 0 and end at 10 years. So a teacher starting last September would see the following increases to their pay over 10 years of teaching:

Based on the 2010-2011 salary grid in Vancouver a beginning teacher at Level 5 Step 0 would earn $48, 083.
By 2021 this same teacher would have received automatic salary increases that average about 4.5% per year.
In 10 years his or her salary would have increased by about 55% to $74,353.

In addition to increases for years of experience, negotiated salary increases also affect the salary grid.

Salary grids ensure pay increases for teachers despite net zero | City Caucus


The union is actually fighting for increases to the base numbers in the "levels." The "steps" are unaffected by wage increase freezes.

The 10-yr step system allows steady raises despite any negotiations so that a teacher can work towards learning & certifying to move up a level. Upon entering a new level, a new step grid starts as well.

Considering how union-demanded increases are compounded within this step system, it's quite easy to relate to the government's opinion that the current BCTF demands are excessive and out of touch with fiscal responsibility.

The current demands also are asking that the 10-yr grid be reduced to 8, thereby adding another compound to the % increase per year. Not to mention the $5k cash bonus.

Only a step-10 teacher who cannot certify to move up a level is truly asking for the publicly discussed percentage increase per year.

[freakshow]

Get a raise each year that isn't based on job performance.. then ask to raise the baseline and maximum.. sounds legit.

[MG1]

Originally Posted by capt_slo

Since the topic of inaccurate / skewed... snip, snip, snip.......

I didn't think this was some hidden secret. It's common knowledge. I guess you're just pointing it out - fair enough.

What I don't get is the signing bonus. Let's say everything gets settled and there is a signing bonus of $1000.00. So every teacher gets this amount? A first year teacher, a part time teacher, a teacher on leave, a teacher who's been at it for 25 years? Should it not be based on the salary grid?

I get the idea of a signing bonus, but would it not be better to give a signing bonus according to percentage of wage?

Anyway, the BCTF is way out of touch. They better be careful how they conduct themselves over the next few weeks.

I have a friend who has been a teacher for like forever. He's actually a counsellor, but he's been around. Taught in more than one district. He told me that the BCTF came into existence back in 1988, which is not that long ago. Before then, the teachers were part of an association. They bargained for wages and working conditions with their individual school districts. There were no strikes as everything was left to binding arbritation. He told me everything was cool and for the most part, was a good system that worked well for both sides. Even the administrators (district principals, principals, vice principals) were part of the same association.

Then along came Bill Vander Zalm (Social Credit political party). He gave the teachers the option to form unions. Local unions. It's more complicated than that, but Coles Notes, the teachers formed a union, because they were given a choice between the ability to strike (being part of a union) or lose binding arbitration if they stayed as an association. Again, this is just Coles Notes version, but we have Bill Vander Zalm for the teachers becoming unionized.


So far, the teachers in BC have lost a helluva lot of money. People say, it's about the money and not the kids. 10% claw back (what union in their right mind would stand up for that?), zero increase for two years, about three weeks lost wages (so far)........ that all ends up being a lot of money. The teachers will never recover that money.

Get class size and composition off the table! It should be someone else's fight. I get it that it is a working condition, but let things go to hell. Then, there is only one person to point the finger at. The premier who has a hate on for teachers. Let her take the blame for setting education in this province back to 1930's level. Only bad thing is, parents who should be the ones fighting for class sizes and composition will just shrug their shoulders and continue on their merry way. Got a kid with tourettes, Fetal Alcohol Syndrome, behaviour issues, ADD, etc? Who cares? Just put them in with the rest of the kids. They'll survive. Hey, they closed down Riverview, it wasn't so bad, was it?

Dropout rates will rise, we will have all kinds of messed up people on our streets........ big things start off small.

And, when they get rid of the union one way or another and turn all public schools into private schools, the troubled kids can flood that system.......... nice!

My kids have all graduated, so why should I care? Nuff said.

How about those Canucks, eh? Gonna be a good season..........

[MG1]

edited

[godwin]

Is this really necessary? Let's subsitute your daugher's /wife and see how you feel. Your candidate didn't win the election, that's democracy at work, you don't like it, you can move to another province.

Originally Posted by MG1

Some stuff MG1 had said.

[MG1]

Yeah, you're right............ as usual.

I will delete that part. I have been shamed. I kinda lost it there. Thanks for knocking some sense into me. I appreciate it.

[MG1]

bad post

[Traum]

Originally Posted by freakshow

Get a raise each year that isn't based on job performance.. then ask to raise the baseline and maximum.. sounds legit.

I am all for performance-based renumerations. At a very general and vague level, we can all identify some general traits and characteristics that makes a teacher "good" at what he does. However, how do you suppose those performance can be judged objectively?

Student performance have often been used as a metric to determine teacher performance, but that is absolutely the poorest form of metric to use.

[7seven]

Originally Posted by capt_slo

Since the topic of inaccurate / skewed campaigning has been raised, I'll point out that it is not just the Government doing this.

How many teachers have you heard complaining about the years of 0% wage increases? Many. But what they don't tell you is that teachers are still getting pay raises every year.

Raises through the teacher's salary grid.

And this is just one of the reasons why I stand firm on wanting teachers salaries rolled back or at the very least continue with a 0% increase to the grid and benefits. Let's face it, the teaching profession in BC is not healthy, with an oversupply of qualified workers still waiting for positions and declining student enrollment every year. In a situation like this, there is absolutely no reason teachers should be getting any sort of increase from year to year, let alone a bump to the salary grid, benefits or a signing bonus. When the nurses got a signing bonus, at least that made sense due to the shortage of nurses and the ever increasing demand in healthcare.



Things are getting ugly over in Victoria, a couple days ago the teachers picketed a construction site building a new school and another site where much needed seismic upgrades to a school were taking place, blocking construction workers from doing the job. How exactly is trying to delay construction of a school and much need seismic upgrades for safety good for students?

Yesterday a court ruling banned the teachers from picketing those sites and just saw on CTV news that garbage was dumped at where some teachers were picketing in Victoria to mess with the teachers.

Construction workers were back at work Wednesday at the new Oak Bay High School and at Quadra Elementary School after striking teachers were banned from picketing.

Construction shut down for a full day on Tuesday when picketing teachers — in a battle with the province over a new contract — showed up at the sites in the morning.

Supervisors for Farmer Construction and Kinetic Construction, both locally owned companies, stopped work and sent workers home.

Farmer won a court injunction to allow work to resume on the $52.5-million Oak Bay school.

An order from the B.C. Labour Relations Board led to work resuming at Quadra school, which is undergoing a $9-million seismic upgrade.

Kinetic’s own union workers, members of Local 1 with the Canadian Iron, Steel and Industrial Worker’ Union, lost a day’s pay due to the shutdown, said Katy Fairley, company business development lead, on Wednesday. Some sub-trades would also have been on the site, she said.

In all, about 50 people were anticipated on the site Tuesday, Fairley said.

“Thankfully, it [the shutdown] is only one day,” she said.

Quadra is slated to reopen in time for classes in September. The construction schedule is a complex scheme, requiring milestones to be reached by certain dates.

Summer is the prime time for school construction work because students are gone.

Kinetic, for example, is also carrying out a seismic upgrade on George Jay Elementary School on Cook Street and will start improvements on Esquimalt High School soon.

- See more at: Victoria school construction resumes after picket ban takes effect - Local - Times Colonist

[bing]

Originally Posted by acrophobia

Again, you need to stop thinking only about salaries. A cost-of-living increase is not the reason that the government is saying "enough is enough". The government has priorities and is choosing to put money into ventures other than education. Every government has and has had limited funds but ours has chosen to reduce their funding for education from 300 million to 75 million dollars per year. And because of their spending habits I am supposed to take a pay cut? Business owners can spend their funds as they please (let's take a vacation!) then have employees pay for it? I can take my limited funds and spend them as I please and then ask the bank to reduce my mortgage? I'd like to think that teachers are pretty darn altruistic already, so let's not take advantage of that and ask us to give up our money, that supports our families, to make up for the government's spending habits. I realize that money is not plentiful, which is why I already stated that we will probably not get the 225m/year we are asking for. We are looking for negotiation and compromise (I hope).

Also, keep in mind that a teacher's workday is 9 or 9.5 (I can't recall which is the actual number) according to the government. That puts us very near the number of yearly working hours for 9-5ers. If you include the time spent coaching sports or clubs, then we work more hours per year than 9-5ers. If you include the hours many teachers (including myself) spend at work in the evenings, on the weekends, over the summer...you get my point.

But I should take a pay cut. To show that I really care. And because all teachers think money grows on trees.

*I fully admit that I am writing this a little tired and cranky

LOL to teacher's being altruistic

Some truly are but a lot are there because they need a job. Where else can you find employment starting at 38k with only a bachelor's degree and get 3 months off every summer?

Also, how many hours do you need to prep every year to teach the same thing? its basically reciting shit you already know. Don't coach teams then cause nobody is forcing you.

I don't care if the government cut back funding for education cause last time I checked, federal and provincial governments were in massive debt.

This isn't about the kids. It's really about enriching yourself at the expense of future generations. I'm okay with wages being tied to inflation but definitely no wage increases.

Finally, fuck the teacher's that voted for the strike and the teacher's union.

[tiger_handheld]

Originally Posted by Traum

I am all for performance-based renumerations. At a very general and vague level, we can all identify some general traits and characteristics that makes a teacher "good" at what he does. However, how do you suppose those performance can be judged objectively?

Student performance have often been used as a metric to determine teacher performance, but that is absolutely the poorest form of metric to use.

Use a more objective teacher rating system. I remember having to fill out sheets and was assured that answers would be typed. Instead of that why not have a survey monkey or similar site set up where you can offer feedback - offer 3% of the grade as a incentive to complete it.

questions would be like: does your teacher volunteer time for sports team, does the teacher clearly explain concepts, how long are the teacher's office hours, what subject does he/she teach. It'll be comprehensive will take about 10-15mins. The kids who get F's will rate the teacher shitty and kids with A's will give the teacher perfect .. so use an average to measure.

[Traum]

^^ Asking kids to evaluate their teachers is just not going to work. Even a lot of the more senior grades may not have a good enough grasp of what a fair and objective evaluation is like. And then when it comes to the elementary grades, what you are you going to do?

There is a reason why our electorial system does not allow for minors to vote. Scientifically, the typical brain doesn't really mature until we hit around 25. There would be all sorts of issues if teacher evaluations rely on these very same minors to affect the outcome.

I don't necessarily agree with using market principles on the teaching profession, but it does seem a bit odd that no one at the government level has tried to sell that as one of the reasons to freeze wages.

[gars]

Nobody would use market principles because the fallout would be terrible.

I definitely don't agree with student evaluations, but definitely - there are plenty of teachers that don't give two shits and shouldn't be teachers. I definitely took courses where I learned absolutely nothing - I'm not sure if that's the fault of the administration of that school, or the teachers.

[Xplicit_EL]

Originally Posted by gars

Nobody would use market principles because the fallout would be terrible.

I definitely don't agree with student evaluations, but definitely - there are plenty of teachers that don't give two shits and shouldn't be teachers. I definitely took courses where I learned absolutely nothing - I'm not sure if that's the fault of the administration of that school, or the teachers.

maybe thats your OWN faullt for not learning anything. People need to stop blaming teachers, I think they get shitty pay and deserve a salary increase.

Plus, the government has failed to pay back the 2mill in damages according to the court order (previously). The government is blatantly not following court orders. This coming from a lawyer myself.

[xpl0sive]

I don't know if this has been discussed, but it seems to be an elephant in the room that no one wants to mention. The increasing class sizes in the GVRD are one of the main points that the teachers want to address. I see where they are coming from, as they are expected to do more and more work, for the same amount of money. More homework to check, tests to grade, questions to answer.

Why are the classes growing at such a fast rate? Is it because people are having more children? Not according to Stats Canada. According to them, fertility rates have been dropping steadily.
Full article here: Births: Analysis

This rate was below the generational replacement level of 2.1 children per woman—the fertility rate that must be maintained to replace the population in the absence of migration. The last year that the total fertility rate exceeded the generational replacement level was 1971. 1

In the past twenty years, the TFR has closely paralleled the trend in number of births (Chart 1). After peaking in 1990 at 1.71 children per woman, the TFR fell throughout the 1990s and then began climbing at the beginning of the 2000s. The drop in the TFR (and the number of births) in 2000 and the recovery in 2001 may have been related to the desire to have a baby in the first year of the new millennium. The number of marriages also increased in 2000.

So where are all these kids coming from? Simple answer, mostly China...
I know some of you may think I'm being racist or picking on the Asians, but I'm just telling it how I see it. I'm in the construction/real estate industry and see the facts on a daily basis. Asian families coming to Canada and bringing their kids there, so the kids can get a good education. They buy houses in the areas with the best schools. They want the best for their kids, and who's to blame them, I'm sure everyone else does too.

But unlike the new immigrants, Canadians have been living here, paying high taxes, so that schools can have good teachers and new books for students. New immigrants? Nope, the only taxes they pay are property taxes on their new houses. I'm all for immigration, which drives the country and benefits everyone. But I'm not interested in paying more taxes so that more people can come here from China, get their kids educated for free and not even bother to learn the language.

I feel that non-citizens should not be entitled to free education. There are plenty of private schools that have great teachers and even better materials than public schools. If a family can afford to come here and buy a $5mil house in Shaughnessy, they can afford to pay for private school. If an immigrant comes to this country and they can prove that they are truly here for a better life and to work and pay taxes, then great, give their kids a free education.

[bomiheko]

A lot of them do go to private schools. Problem is they are full and have high entrance grades. You can't even buy your way in anymore. Property tax is the one that covers education and school, so they are already paying for it, why should they be denied education. And not all the kids are immigrants. Many of them have international student status, they pay in full.