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Old 09-02-2014, 05:22 PM   #501
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I want to know about the hidden agendas in this dispute.............
Thanked you for this post too because I couldn't thank your previous post more than once.
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Old 09-02-2014, 05:29 PM   #502
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The Cost of Class Size and Composition | Ashley D. Mackenzie

On my phone or I'd copy and paste, but it's a good restatement of something I think I brought up awhile ago.
Maybe it's too biased. DNR. Hee hee.
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Old 09-02-2014, 09:57 PM   #503
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before anyone says that teachers put in all this extra time marking, helping after school etc. you have to consider that their salary already takes this into consideration.

school day including the mandatory 15 mins before/after is 6.5 hours a day * 186 school days = 1209 hours @ 70k a year = $58/hour not including very generous benefits.

even if every teacher spends an extra 3 hours a day with marking (and i sincerely doubt many teachers do) theyre still at $40/hour.

so its really hard for me to have sympathy for a teacher who complains about all the extra shit they do after school
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Old 09-02-2014, 10:19 PM   #504
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^^^ I agree. You all don't know what teachers have to go through and put up with. My gf is a teacher and the amount of extra work they have to put in (without pay) is staggering. All you people ragging on teachers need to STFU until you have experienced it.
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Old 09-02-2014, 10:24 PM   #505
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before anyone says that teachers put in all this extra time marking, helping after school etc. you have to consider that their salary already takes this into consideration.

school day including the mandatory 15 mins before/after is 6.5 hours a day * 186 school days = 1209 hours @ 70k a year = $58/hour not including very generous benefits.

even if every teacher spends an extra 3 hours a day with marking (and i sincerely doubt many teachers do) theyre still at $40/hour.

so its really hard for me to have sympathy for a teacher who complains about all the extra shit they do after school
I think there's a fair bit of conflicting information as to what teachers' make but $70K is almost certainly an exaggeration:

Wage Comparison: how B.C. teachers compare to others in Canada | Globalnews.ca - Average of $49K

BC Teachers' Salary Grid, BC Teacher Salaries | BCPSEA - Vancouver salary range in 2006 of $39-70K

Battle of numbers: How much does an average teacher make? - The Globe and Mail - $70K

Teaching Jobs in Canada - powered by Education Canada Network - $37-70K

BC teachers at low end of average salary scale, according to Stats Canada figures | (CKNW AM) AM980 - Stats can says the range is $42-64

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/81-604-...bld2.1-eng.htm (The source for the above link).

I'm going to trust source #2 since that's the data from the actual collective bargaining agreement.

A salary range of $39-70K plus pension for an university educated individual is pretty reasonable if it's a 9-5 job. For a teacher it strikes me as pretty low - $39K to start as a teacher? That's ok for straight out of school but not particularly good. $70K at the top end? Yipes, that's just awful. The pension is the trade off - they get a tonne of security in exchange for a lower top end but that's still low. I would have expected a teacher with 20 years experience (and possibly a Master's degree) would be in the 85-90K range. (Note that Alberta pays it's teachers more than $20K more at the top end - crazy).
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Old 09-02-2014, 10:30 PM   #506
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I think there's a fair bit of conflicting information as to what teachers' make but $70K is almost certainly an exaggeration:

Wage Comparison: how B.C. teachers compare to others in Canada | Globalnews.ca - Average of $49K

BC Teachers' Salary Grid, BC Teacher Salaries | BCPSEA - Vancouver salary range in 2006 of $39-70K

Battle of numbers: How much does an average teacher make? - The Globe and Mail - $70K

Teaching Jobs in Canada - powered by Education Canada Network - $37-70K

BC teachers at low end of average salary scale, according to Stats Canada figures | (CKNW AM) AM980 - Stats can says the range is $42-64

I'm going to trust source #2 since that's the data from the actual collective bargaining agreement.

A salary range of $39-70K plus pension for an university educated individual is eminently reasonable for a 9-5 job. For a teacher it strikes me as pretty low - $39K to start as a teacher? That's ok for straight out of school but not particularly good. $70K at the top end? Yipes, that's just awful. The pension is the trade off - they get a tonne of security in exchange for a lower top end but that's still low.
your own link #2 has $42 - 80k for 2010, im sure its higher by now. 40k straight out of school for 1209 hrs is $33/hr seems pretty fucking good for someone with an undergrad + 1 year.
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Old 09-02-2014, 10:44 PM   #507
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your own link #2 has $42 - 80k for 2010, im sure its higher by now. 40k straight out of school for 1209 hrs is $33/hr seems pretty fucking good for someone with an undergrad + 1 year.
Well, the salary scale is pretty typical of other jobs in the public sector: people with little experience and low skill get paid above-market, while those who have more experience and higher skills are paid at market salaries, or slightly below.

I mean, what do people want to pay teachers? 40K per year with no benefits? Of course, people will then ask about tying pay to performance. By what metrics? Standardized tests? (which don't really measure much anyway) In my view, you can't really have a discussion about salary until there's a general consensus on what the education system should produce. Do we want a vocation-based education system where kids are put into streams early? (it certainly makes sense if we're going to ride the resource-extraction horse until it dies, or the world explodes) Or, do we want to produce workers for the knowledge economy? (whatever that means?)

You have people in this thread complaining that the government should support public education, yet complain about salaries. In the end, you always get what you pay for. If you want a public education system, then you have to deal with all of the stuff that comes with it such as a public sector union, etc. If people's concerns are about costs, then privatize the system and let the chips fall where they may. Who cares right? As long as I got mine...

On the other hand, every time people bring up salary, it makes me wonder why they didn't hit the buffet line/pig trough to become teachers themselves?

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Old 09-02-2014, 11:31 PM   #508
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Who cares right? As long as I got mine...

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Old 09-02-2014, 11:40 PM   #509
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why are you guys talking about teachers' wages?

I thought the main reason for this strike was class size ratio and support worker for kids with disabilities?
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Old 09-02-2014, 11:47 PM   #510
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Old 09-03-2014, 12:00 AM   #511
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your own link #2 has $42 - 80k for 2010, im sure its higher by now. 40k straight out of school for 1209 hrs is $33/hr seems pretty fucking good for someone with an undergrad + 1 year.
It's not higher, salary from 2010 are still the same as today which is why wages have been one of the things on the table this past negotiation period.
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Old 09-03-2014, 01:51 AM   #512
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why are you guys talking about teachers' wages?
I guess it's human nature to be jealous. Our society is obsessed with how much others make. I'm not sure if this is a Lower Mainland thing, a BC thing, a Canadian thing, or a North American thing. Are other places like Japan, China, UK obsessed with salaries like we are?

Does it hurt that you only make 14 dolla an hour? Like mentioned so many times, if you want to make that much money, go get that job instead of whining about how much this or that person makes. If I find out so and so on RS makes way more than me for doing what kind of work they do. I'd be like, more power to them. As long as you don't make that money on the backs of others, I don't give a flying toaster.

People are too butthurt and have nothing better to do these days. Are people that pathetic that they have to attack others to make themselves feel better? Are they that angry with their own existence and situation that they have to focus in on others? Their self worth measured by how much they make? Shallow is what I call it.

We have people who worry about what's going to be on the dinner table tomorrow........... do you think they are worried about what car they are going to buy next month or which shoe they are going to wear tomorrow to work, or whine about how seasons tickets to the Canucks have gone up?

You know what pisses me off the most? Kids who drive exotic cars their moms bought them....... NOT! I don't care. At the end of the day, I'm good with who I am. I live an honest life (for the most part) and don't rely on others or take advantage of others. I try to make a difference. To me, there are a lot of things that are more important than getting my knickers in a knot over what others have or make.

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Old 09-03-2014, 02:52 AM   #513
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I guess it's human nature to be jealous. Our society is obsessed with how much others make. I'm not sure if this is a Lower Mainland thing, a BC thing, a Canadian thing, or a North American thing. Are other places like Japan, China, UK obsessed with salaries like we are?
depends on teh group, but in vancouver, in my field EVERYONE told everyone how much they were making.

now i've moved back to Europe, i'm in peace, no one telling me their pay raise, salary, bonus. it's so refreashing, i can actually live my life, interact with ppl, not talk about their money... their money which doens't concern me, only mine concerns me!

as for teachers, fuck high 30's out of uni, that's good. As a CA articling student, i worked 10 hr days for 2 years straight whilst doing school work in evening/weekends at $35K a year before an type of decent pay raise (and even then it wasn't great and the hours still sucked) - but i did it for a reason, just as teachers go into teaching for a reason. if it's money, and constant pay raises, they did it for the wrong reason.
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Old 09-03-2014, 06:51 AM   #514
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BC Teachers' Salary Grid, BC Teacher Salaries | BCPSEA

Couple years out of date but instead of relying on the awesome thoroughness of news reports, there's the teacher payscale for all the different school districts in BC.
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Old 09-03-2014, 07:36 AM   #515
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why are you guys talking about teachers' wages?

I thought the main reason for this strike was class size ratio and support worker for kids with disabilities?
Because salaries and benefits are one of the major sticking points in the strike negotiations, the BCTF has not taken the demand for the $5,000 signing bonus, raise nor the increased benefits package off the table and the government will not negotiate on the items regarding class composition and support until the signing bonus and benefits package is off the table or at least greatly reduced.

So tired of hearing that teachers have not had a raise since XXXX, that's bs as they get pay increases as they work their way through each step and level. Personally I don't even think they should even get a signing bonus let alone anything close to $5,000 or anything similar to the nurses did, as I've said before, the supply of qualified nurses is at a greater shortage and the need is greater. Enrollment figures in schools keep dropping yearly and there is just an over supply of teachers out there, now part of the problem is that too many underperforming teachers or ones who should have been retired already are still hanging around, but that is a union own created problem.

While the teachers make a decent wage/pension/benefits, I don't really think they are highly paid, but personally I look at it more as a supply and demand of the occupations workforce, current economic environment and the ridiculousness of the BCTF that has me falling on the side of Fassbender and the Government on this. I would have no issues giving nurses, peace officers, firefighters or paramedics increased benefits and salaries, but for teachers I personally don't agree. What I would like to see however is more spending into education support and infrastructure rather than to the teachers salaries and benefits.
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Old 09-03-2014, 07:44 AM   #516
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i just want to bring up an old point.

education, in my eyes, is done more at home than in school. I've had good teachers, i've had terrible teachers, but my parents always made sure we got the best grades by trying our hardest and doing all our homework.

it's not tough, if a kid is falling behind, don't blame the teacher, they're not a variable here, but the parents can and should be assisting to ensure the child is understanding and learning.

the problem with this is that most parents these days are idiots, so i fear their ability to help into gr 10/11/12 is limited due to their lack of common sense.

i honestly don't know how i feel when looking at the salary ranges. i know i couldn't live on the highest one, but then again, i work a lot harder and smarter than a secondary school teacher does (that's not a point of contention, yes the work is different, but the market dictates my worth, as it does the teacher's through their union negotiations) - don't get me wrong, i'd be fired from teaching very quickly (i have taught at UBC for a while, and i was FUCKING MEAN to the kids on their cell phones, but high school kids, i think i'd end up doing something i'd later have to regret).

anyway, as said, teachers mean only so much, as textbooks and parents should take the brunt of any failure of the children. Teachers are a government provided service, as such, it'll also kinda suck.

As multi says, go private if you want your kids to have a greater chance of getting ahead (ppl will say it doesn't matter, well, sadly, it does, i have a family member that went to eaton or whatever it was in the UK, no university, boom, makes fuck loads bc of the ppl who knew through his classmates - guy is a tool, too, but a tool that is richer than i'll ever be)
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Old 09-03-2014, 08:12 AM   #517
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Because salaries and benefits are one of the major sticking points in the strike negotiations, the BCTF has not taken the demand for the $5,000 signing bonus, raise nor the increased benefits package off the table and the government will not negotiate on the items regarding class composition and support until the signing bonus and benefits package is off the table or at least greatly reduced.

So tired of hearing that teachers have not had a raise since XXXX, that's bs as they get pay increases as they work their way through each step and level. Personally I don't even think they should even get a signing bonus let alone anything close to $5,000 or anything similar to the nurses did, as I've said before, the supply of qualified nurses is at a greater shortage and the need is greater. Enrollment figures in schools keep dropping yearly and there is just an over supply of teachers out there, now part of the problem is that too many underperforming teachers or ones who should have been retired already are still hanging around, but that is a union own created problem.

While the teachers make a decent wage/pension/benefits, I don't really think they are highly paid, but personally I look at it more as a supply and demand of the occupations workforce, current economic environment and the ridiculousness of the BCTF that has me falling on the side of Fassbender and the Government on this. I would have no issues giving nurses, peace officers, firefighters or paramedics increased benefits and salaries, but for teachers I personally don't agree. What I would like to see however is more spending into education support and infrastructure rather than to the teachers salaries and benefits.
Please give this man a cookie.

I'm sure there is more the government and BCTF will squabble about yet the bolded points above are why I am strongly against the teachers. This is why salaries keep being brought up, this whole strike wouldn't fucking exist if it was just about "class composition and special needs support."
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Old 09-03-2014, 08:18 AM   #518
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i just want to bring up an old point.

education, in my eyes, is done more at home than in school. I've had good teachers, i've had terrible teachers, but my parents always made sure we got the best grades by trying our hardest and doing all our homework.
BINGO! Those who want to learn will do so no matter what. Parental support will ensure that the child is keeping up or staying ahead with their classwork. Those who are going to school to clown around are going to clown regardless of their teachers.
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Old 09-03-2014, 08:33 AM   #519
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Regarding that class composition + wage oncrease, back when this whole thing started global went to 4 different picket lines and interviewed a bunch of teachers, they were asked would you be fine going forward without a pay increase of any kind if other matters were addressed. Obviously they all have to tow the party line but not one teacher said yes or even did it in a round about way.
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Old 09-03-2014, 08:42 AM   #520
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Please give this man a cookie.

I'm sure there is more the government and BCTF will squabble about yet the bolded points above are why I am strongly against the teachers. This is why salaries keep being brought up, this whole strike wouldn't fucking exist if it was just about "class composition and special needs support."
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Old 09-03-2014, 08:44 AM   #521
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Clark facing crisis after NDP revelations about talks with teachers - The Globe and Mail

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The documents focus on testimony given in court by the government’s chief negotiator in contract talks with the BCTF – Paul Straszak. In that testimony, Mr. Straszak talks about the tools the government had at its disposal to “increase the pressure on the [BCTF] to escalate the strike.”

Mr. Straszak is asked on the stand: “So your objective as government was to increase the pressure on the teachers to have them go out on a full-scale strike? Is that correct?”

His answer: “We – yes. I’ll say that’s correct.” As bad, Mr. Straszak says he briefed the Premier’s deputy, John Dyble, on the strategy ahead of a meeting with the provincial cabinet. Mr. Straszak also talked about the tools that were available to apply that strike pressure, such as cancelling teacher leaves and restricting funding to school districts.
I'm a lifelong Liberal voter and have spent my whole life being more anti-union than pro-union but the way Christy Clark goes about governing is disgusting. (I happen to like Gordon Campbell - he wasn't perfect but he was a decent man trying to make BC better).
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My view of this whole fiasco has gone from one end to the other since it began.

To be honest, now I don't even really give a shit about what either side has to say

I want them both to have a nice big cup of shut the fuck up and just get your shit together and get something done.

This whole back and forth in the media/social media is annoying and immature as fuck.
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Old 09-03-2014, 09:12 AM   #523
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Clark facing crisis after NDP revelations about talks with teachers - The Globe and Mail



I'm a lifelong Liberal voter and have spent my whole life being more anti-union than pro-union but the way Christy Clark goes about governing is disgusting. (I happen to like Gordon Campbell - he wasn't perfect but he was a decent man trying to make BC better).
I really dislike crusty Clark. How does she even get to be our premier. I believe she does not even have a degree.
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Also, she purposely knows how to fuck over teachers because her dad was a teacher growing up. Soo sick of her shit.
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Old 09-03-2014, 09:32 AM   #525
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I really dislike crusty Clark. How does she even get to be our premier. I believe she does not even have a degree.
Her party was voted in. Did you not remember the election that the NDP gave away? Did the teachers forget to show up and vote for their party that day?


Here we are today, Liberals in power.
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