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Old 08-11-2014, 08:22 PM   #51
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The other thing is if Russia is saying they picked up a military plane leveling off to the airliner before it crashed, why doesnt the U.S. just release their satellite photos showing the sky was clear...

Skimming through the theories I'd say the mystery military jet rocketed the airliner then shot the cabin with bullets to disable the pilots and have it crash right over a pocket of ground for infiltrating into the Russian freedom fighters bases when recovery EU personal demand to section off the crash site.

The military jet being spotted next to the civilian could also double work for the excuse of new Ukrainian soldiers shooting the civilian one down.
Or, and this is just a thought, Russia could release that information and basically discredit the USA and Europe in one swoop...
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Old 08-11-2014, 08:22 PM   #52
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what if Russia wants to drag this out and discredit them later.... also using the excuse to cut international trade threatening the Dollar.

So you think the intelligence services in the US could be mistaken?
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Old 08-11-2014, 08:28 PM   #53
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Shrapnel damage:



Looks like bullet holes, doesn't it?

Except - and here's the kicker - it's not.
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Old 08-11-2014, 08:30 PM   #54
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Quote:
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I'd say the mystery military jet rocketed the airliner then shot the cabin with bullets to disable the pilots
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Old 08-11-2014, 08:31 PM   #55
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@Lomac
You missed my question, apparently the Germans are saying the same thing.
Germans Say MH17 Shot Down by Ukie Migs | Veterans Today

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Old 08-11-2014, 09:05 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesInCharge View Post
I'd say the mystery military jet rocketed the airliner then shot the cabin with bullets to disable the pilots.
You know, because, firing at missile at a commercial airliner with absolutely no defence/evasion/countermeasure mechanisms takes more than 1 go to disable it completely.



It totally requires another approach just to off the pilots in the cabin instead of, you know, shooting out the engines.
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Old 08-11-2014, 09:10 PM   #57
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What if the missile only hit one engine, then it may be able to glide for sometime... deep and near the Russian boarder... away from an infiltration point where the crash scene can be taken over.
How far was this crash from the Ukrainian government enemy line? I dont know... looks like Im the only one trying to piece something together outside the propaganda sources.
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Old 08-11-2014, 09:37 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesInCharge View Post
What if the missile only hit one engine, then it may be able to glide for sometime... deep and near the Russian boarder... away from an infiltration point where the crash scene can be taken over.
How far was this crash from the Ukrainian government enemy line? I dont know... looks like Im the only one trying to piece something together outside the propaganda sources.
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Skimming through the theories I'd say the mystery military jet rocketed the airliner then shot the cabin with bullets to disable the pilots
What? WHAT?

Go home, CiC. You're drunk...and have watched Top Gun too many times. Stop it.

...yes, you can still watch the volleyball scene.
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Old 08-11-2014, 09:51 PM   #59
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@Lomac
You missed my question, apparently a German [is] saying the same thing.
Germans Say MH17 Shot Down by Ukie Migs | Veterans Today
Fixed that for you.

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Originally Posted by CharlesInCharge View Post
What if the missile only hit one engine, then it may be able to glide for sometime... deep and near the Russian boarder... away from an infiltration point where the crash scene can be taken over.
How far was this crash from the Ukrainian government enemy line? I dont know... looks like Im the only one trying to piece something together outside the propaganda sources.
Okay, I'll humour this.

The Ukraine only has one fighter jet in service that has both a 30mm cannon and air-to-air missiles, the Russian built SU-25. The problem is that the R-60 AA missile contains a proximity warhead. The warhead is also a fragmentation, high explosive unit. These don't explode upon contact; they detonate within a preset distance of their target. The third thing is that they use semi-active homing radar detection.

This is also very similar to how the land based Buk SAM units work. The typical missile in these use semi-active homing radar and are armed with proximity fragmentation warheads.

FYI, most semi-active homing systems work on an intercept path, not a chase route.

So, whether MH17 was hit by a missile by an SU-25 or a Buk missile, it's going to display extremely similar body damage. You know, those "bullet holes" near the cockpit.
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Old 08-11-2014, 10:07 PM   #60
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So you think your conclusion is better then the intelligence services that have seen all the evidence?
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Old 08-11-2014, 10:09 PM   #61
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Fixed that for you.



Okay, I'll humour this.

The Ukraine only has one fighter jet in service that has both a 30mm cannon and air-to-air missiles, the Russian built SU-25. The problem is that the R-60 AA missile contains a proximity warhead. The warhead is also a fragmentation, high explosive unit. These don't explode upon contact; they detonate within a preset distance of their target. The third thing is that they use semi-active homing radar detection.

This is also very similar to how the land based Buk SAM units work. The typical missile in these use semi-active homing radar and are armed with proximity fragmentation warheads.

FYI, most semi-active homing systems work on an intercept path, not a chase route.

So, whether MH17 was hit by a missile by an SU-25 or a Buk missile, it's going to display extremely similar body damage. You know, those "bullet holes" near the cockpit.
It should also be kept in mind that the reason a Su-25 carries a 30mm cannon is that it's intended for ground attack like an American A-10, and only has a top speed that is less than 100 km/h faster than a loaded Boeing 777. For it to carry air-to-air armaments would be a bit rare considering that a Su-27 fighter is more oriented for airspace intercept. So unless whoever decided that scrambling a Su-25 of all things was a good idea, the Buk SAM being the source of the attack seems a bit more plausible.

And for the record, forget all that "what-if" bullshit. Unless someone has video of the missile contrail, all we know is that the plane was hit, but we don't know from where.

Excuse my armchair piloting, but as an enthusiast of aviation, I thought I'd chime in.
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Old 08-11-2014, 10:11 PM   #62
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What if the missile only hit one engine, then it may be able to glide for sometime... deep and near the Russian boarder... away from an infiltration point where the crash scene can be taken over.
How far was this crash from the Ukrainian government enemy line? I dont know... looks like Im the only one trying to piece something together outside the propaganda sources.
So there are a couple of fighter jets that Ukraine could have used. For convenience sake, let's say it was the MiG-29. It carries one R-27 and some R-73 missiles.

The R-27 is medium-to-long-range air-to-air missile that carries a warhead weight of 39kg.

The R-73 is a short-range air-to-air missile that carries a warhead weight of 16kg.

If EITHER of these missiles were to hit a 777, the engine is the least of your worries. I would be more worried about the instantaneous loss of control (fly-by-wire) that would be essentially render the plane inoperable. In addition, as a result of the explosion, shrapnel would likely cause punctures in the wings and ignite the fuel tanks on them. I highly suspect that the wing would not be able to survive this and the plane would likely break apart in the air.
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Old 08-12-2014, 12:12 AM   #63
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So you think your conclusion is better then the intelligence services that have seen all the evidence?
No, I think my conclusion matches the general thesis that's been widely accepted as what happened.

But given I haven't seen any official intelligence agency actually state what happened, it's a moot point to a loaded question.

I am also extremely interested as to what in thst post you feel is incorrect.
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Old 08-12-2014, 12:28 AM   #64
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Do you care to track down the German and US reports and see how credible they are?

Also what I think is incorrect in your post is the absence, or rather acknowledging the smoking gun evidence of Russia tracking a military place lining up to the airliner and the US withholding that satellite imagery to reveal the truth.

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Post is too long for me to read tonight.
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Old 08-12-2014, 12:44 AM   #65
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Do you care to track down the German and US reports and see how credible they are?

Also what I think is incorrect in your post is the absence, or rather acknowledging the smoking gun evidence of Russia tracking a military place lining up to the airliner and the US withholding that satellite imagery to reveal the truth.
"Evidence" that may or may not exist. What I'm postulating here is based on the physical evidence that does exist and that both you and I can see with our own eyes.

So, based solely on that information, do you think my theory is still incorrect?
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Old 08-12-2014, 01:23 AM   #66
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(part of the BRICKS group)
it's BRICs

Brazil
Russia
India
China

you suck at life CiC
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Old 08-12-2014, 01:24 AM   #67
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@Lomac
I think you should run your conclusions through the intelligence reports first then have us commit to reading your thesis.
Even the Malaysian government media have publish this report.. the least you can do is read it first and get into the technicalities.

One comparison you can do is size up the head of a pilot, and super impose that over the cabin panels. Size up the 30-33mm cannon diameter to that human head, and we can compare hole sizes.

The smoking gun is being withheld by the US. That tells the story there it self. Maybe Ron Paul's been directed to cue us in because Malaysia may go against the grain of ZioAmerica propaganda. That Malaysian reprint came out 4 days ago, Ron Paul's, only yesterday.
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Old 08-12-2014, 01:30 AM   #68
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i love two things:

CiC keeps on talking about intelligence reports as though he has them! what a fool

People who ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT come in, discuss rationally based on experience and knowledge, CiC banters on about cracker BS still...

this is so hilarious it's not even funny.
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Old 08-12-2014, 07:44 AM   #69
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The proof may or may not exist and therefore, you're all wrong, according to CiC.

Did I just sum up his whole argument?
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Old 08-12-2014, 08:53 AM   #70
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See my .sig, but replace "sebberry" with "CiC".
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Old 08-12-2014, 09:05 AM   #71
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The proof may or may not exist and therefore, you're all wrong, according to CiC.

Did I just sum up his whole argument?
Bingo. Or when Gin Rummy talks in The Boondocks (I'd post the video but language is NSFW)

"I always say, the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence."

"Simply because you don't have evidence that something does exist does not mean that you have evidence that something doesn't exist."

"Well, what I'm saying is that there are known knowns and that there are known unknowns. But there are also unknown unknowns; things we don't know that we don't know."

In other words, his argument can be summed up as what you said Ronin. Basically, he's allowed to pull whatever shit out of his ass (unknown, unknowns) he wants and he's right, and any physical proof we pull makes us wrong regardless of its validity.
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Old 08-12-2014, 09:16 AM   #72
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@Lomac
I think you should run your conclusions through the intelligence reports first then have us commit to reading your thesis.
Even the Malaysian government media have publish this report.. the least you can do is read it first and get into the technicalities.

One comparison you can do is size up the head of a pilot, and super impose that over the cabin panels. Size up the 30-33mm cannon diameter to that human head, and we can compare hole sizes.

The smoking gun is being withheld by the US. That tells the story there it self. Maybe Ron Paul's been directed to cue us in because Malaysia may go against the grain of ZioAmerica propaganda. That Malaysian reprint came out 4 days ago, Ron Paul's, only yesterday.
The data on the black box is likely still under analysis, so how can any intelligence agency issue an official report on what happened? THEY CAN'T.

So again I ask, based on the physical information we both have, what's wrong with my conclusion?

BTW, there's no such thing as a 33mm calibre, nor a 30 odd 33. Not sure where that came from...
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Old 08-12-2014, 11:24 AM   #73
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Why hasn't CiC been banned yet?
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Old 08-12-2014, 11:27 AM   #74
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Why hasn't CiC been banned yet?
We need someone to make the rest of us look/feel normal.

Even asian_XL needs to feel normal sometimes.
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Old 08-12-2014, 12:17 PM   #75
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The data on the black box is likely still under analysis, so how can any intelligence agency issue an official report on what happened? THEY CAN'T.

So again I ask, based on the physical information we both have, what's wrong with my conclusion?

BTW, there's no such thing as a 33mm calibre, nor a 30 odd 33. Not sure where that came from...
For the 100th time, go read these reports then make your final thesis. Stop spamming or I'll keep you on my ignore list.
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