God

[CivicBlues]

Originally Posted by XSSIV

I'd have to disagree a bit here... if you look at history and nations that orginially had no concept of, let's call them Abrahamic laws - rape, murder, theft, substance addictions, no concept of monogamy, and no care about human life has been rampant in these societies.

Examples - In Japan, suicide is considered honorable. The only reason suicide has been pushed down to everyone as being a bad thing is because of Christianity.

Africa - cannibalism, murder, rape - all the time

Look at modern Islamic states - twisted AF morals

I do agree with the animal comment - but I don't think you really thought that through.

Instinct pushes you to be Alpha or be dominated. Animals rape each other. Animals kill each other. Animals live by who's the strongest and baddest - which is human instinct too without rules..

my2cents...

Wow what an ignorant comment. Japan is literally one of the safest countries in the world and has no Abrahamic tradition. Suicide aside, it's an extremely moral society but one based on different principles than the west.

On the other hand, Islamic societies which by definition is part of the Abrahamic world has serious issues with stability.

I don't think it has anything to do with religion, rather the Geo-politics of the country coupled with the strength state authority that determines the level of chaos in any given nation. You can't make blanket judgements over entire swaths of the world.

[XSSIV]

Originally Posted by CivicBlues

Wow what an ignorant comment. Japan is literally one of the safest countries in the world and has no Abrahamic tradition. Suicide aside, it's an extremely moral society but one based on different principles than the west.

On the other hand, Islamic societies which by definition is part of the Abrahamic world has serious issues with stability.

I don't think it has anything to do with religion, rather the Geo-politics of the country coupled with the strength state authority that determines the level of chaos in any given nation. You can't make blanket judgements over entire swaths of the world.

I was saying that a lot of the things we believe are because of Abrahamic laws... for example marriage. Marriage is dropping all over the world as we move away from religious beliefs.

Japan for one ruled by force. They constantly battled eachother. Pedophilia is/was rampant. Japan did atrocious things during WW2 to humans - and even helped the world with their research. They are polite etc because at one point it was demanded of you by the rulers.

I'm not accusing them of anything - not sure what you're so offended by. They just did things the way they saw fit. And the US did too - and dropped a couple of nukes on them... Western (dare I say Christian? In god we trust) influence has happened on that culture... no denying this.

Islam is Abrahamic and barbaric AF...

Religion has everything to do with it. Christian Europeans went out of their way to spread this around the world. Islam went it's own way...

When natives dominated in North America, they constantly fought eachother. Some would scalp others. Any historical war has had tones of rape.

Any human with an ego wants to instinctively dominate everything - man and animal. At what cost? Many will give their life.

Sorry if I offended you man..

[Hondaracer]

I think it’s asanine to think an individual needs guidance in their life through religion in order to be a good person or serve some greater purpose.

If anything I’d say that signifys weak personal character.

[XSSIV]

Originally Posted by Hondaracer

I think it’s asanine to think an individual needs guidance in their life through religion in order to be a good person or serve some greater purpose.

If anything I’d say that signifys weak personal character.

Agreed - religion hasn't really done anything good for society at all... other than divide..

[!LittleDragon]

Originally Posted by XSSIV

I'd have to disagree a bit here... if you look at history and nations that orginially had no concept of, let's call them Abrahamic laws - rape, murder, theft, substance addictions, no concept of monogamy, and no care about human life has been rampant in these societies.

They also didn't live in a time of plenty and had to do those things to survive. Fast forward to today, we don't have to walk for days to reach the next town. Calories are plenty and living conditions are clean. We live better than kings did 100 years ago. Compared to places in Africa that don't have a lot, even our homeless live pretty well. When was the last time a homeless person here died of starvation?

[jasonturbo]

I was raised a Christian but recently converted to Muslim, I'm presently attending a religious workshop in the remote mountains of Afghanistan where we are learning all about how the West marginalizes Muslims.

We start weapons training tomorrow - Alhamdulillah!

[SiRV]

Originally Posted by XSSIV

I was saying that a lot of the things we believe are because of Abrahamic laws... for example marriage. Marriage is dropping all over the world as we move away from religious beliefs.

How many wives did Abraham have?

The idea of monogamy actually did not come into effect until the 1600s during the Romanticism period in Europe... you know that right? Prior to that men could have as many wives as they could afford.

Japan for one ruled by force. They constantly battled eachother. Pedophilia is/was rampant. Japan did atrocious things during WW2 to humans - and even helped the world with their research. They are polite etc because at one point it was demanded of you by the rulers.

I'm not accusing them of anything - not sure what you're so offended by. They just did things the way they saw fit. And the US did too - and dropped a couple of nukes on them... Western (dare I say Christian? In god we trust) influence has happened on that culture... no denying this.

Islam is Abrahamic and barbaric AF...

What is your take on American imperialism, why did we go to war in Iraq & Afghanistan?

So, I guess as long as we in the Western Christian societies can do drone strikes, use sophisticated weaponry to kill these brown skinned men women and children, we are not barbaric murderers? I guess that makes sense.

Religion has everything to do with it. Christian Europeans went out of their way to spread this around the world. Islam went it's own way...

When natives dominated in North America, they constantly fought eachother. Some would scalp others. Any historical war has had tones of rape.

Dang, I didn't know rape didn't happen in modern day wars (it does), and scalping I guess is worse than "enhanced interrogation" with waterboards or whatever other secret tactics are used by the United States - oh wait, the CIA / FBI interrogation records were conveniently "lost".

[GS8]

Double post - fucking RS keeps logging me out

[GS8]

Originally Posted by Hondaracer

I think it’s asanine to think an individual needs guidance in their life through religion in order to be a good person or serve some greater purpose.

If anything I’d say that signifys weak personal character.

Ehh, I've seen people who lived absolutely shitty lives later turn to religion in order to feel something good. I wouldn't hold that against them. They became better people overall while not becoming hardcore fanatics. IMO, it doesn't matter if they're doing it for a higher being. They are better off now than they were before.

Some will say religion saved them, others will say compassionate people saved them. I think in the end, they saved themselves regardless and it was better than what they came from.

[XSSIV]

How many wives did Abraham have?

The idea of monogamy actually did not come into effect until the 1600s during the Romanticism period in Europe... you know that right? Prior to that men could have as many wives as they could afford.

First, that's the laws of the Jews at the time. Concubines was a thing. Lot's daughters also raped him - that was a thing.

What is your take on American imperialism, why did we go to war in Iraq & Afghanistan?

So, I guess as long as we in the Western Christian societies can do drone strikes, use sophisticated weaponry to kill these brown skinned men women and children, we are not barbaric murderers? I guess that makes sense.

Greed.

Dang, I didn't know rape didn't happen in modern day wars (it does), and scalping I guess is worse than "enhanced interrogation" with waterboards or whatever other secret tactics are used by the United States - oh wait, the CIA / FBI interrogation records were conveniently "lost".

Exactly... why would we think that humans are capable of good even with all these laws in place? We're driven to do bad - or it turns out to be bad for someone. Domination and wanting power is man's weakness. I truly believe in the words: power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

[XSSIV]

They also didn't live in a time of plenty and had to do those things to survive. Fast forward to today, we don't have to walk for days to reach the next town. Calories are plenty and living conditions are clean. We live better than kings did 100 years ago. Compared to places in Africa that don't have a lot, even our homeless live pretty well. When was the last time a homeless person here died of starvation?
__________________

But... you're talking about a society that's been built on these Abrahamic laws we're discussing... How about we look at North Korea? I wouldn't exactly call that a functioning society.

This is all based on just my observations of the world and the studying I've done on religion in my time.

That is all. I don't have a right or wrong answer for you - just lowly me's opinion.

[XSSIV]

Some will say religion saved them, others will say compassionate people saved them. I think in the end, they saved themselves regardless.

It's like going on a diet.

I did XXXXX diet and I lost 20lbs!!!

Well... yeah, anytime you watch what you consume, you're going to lose weight generally... you could just eat plain rice for a month and lose a ton of weight...

[SiRV]

Originally Posted by XSSIV

First, that's the laws of the Jews at the time. Concubines was a thing. Lot's daughters also raped him - that was a thing.

Ok so how then can you attribute our cultural shift away from monogamy as a lack of religion and not something more of a general cultural shift? If we were to live by biblical standards, shouldn't we also be able to have multiple wives and rape our daughters?

Greed.

You didn't answer the question about Barbarism. Why is it greed and not a Christian cultural belief to slay darker skin people? How do you know what you define as Barbarism isn't also a result of greed, land disputes etc.?

Exactly... why would we think that humans are capable of good even with all these laws in place? We're driven to do bad - or it turns out to be bad for someone. Domination and wanting power is man's weakness. I truly believe in the words: power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

You say Christians went one way, but islamists went another as if the Christians did it better. Both religions are a way of subjugating populations and forming tribalistic communities with their own defined values, traditions and norms... That's just culture. So the fact that your saying Japanese are immoral, Arabs are barbarians, and native Americans are animals that scalp each other -- that is your own judgement based on your visual-cortical lens filter that you have subconsciously applied to the way you view the world and the people that inhabit it.

[XSSIV]

Ok so how then can you attribute our cultural shift away from monogamy as a lack of religion and not something more of a general cultural shift? If we were to live by biblical standards, shouldn't we also be able to have multiple wives and rape our daughters?

The later part, where Christians come from, talks about being monogamous.

And you make an amazing point - WHY AREN'T WE ALLOWED TO HAVE MULTIPLE WIVES? Some places are ok with our term of rape - like some Islamic nations where marrying children is ok.

You didn't answer the question about Barbarism. Why is it greed and not a Christian cultural belief to slay darker skin people? How do you know what you define as Barbarism isn't also a result of greed, land disputes etc.?

Because Christians supposedly follow Jesus. And Jesus set out rules against this. Bible does say that many will claim to be Christian and do the exact opposite... so greed and trying to cover it as Christian?

You say Christians went one way, but islamists went another as if the Christians did it better. Both religions are a way of subjugating populations and forming tribalistic communities with their own defined values, traditions and norms... That's just culture. So the fact that your saying Japanese are immoral, Arabs are barbarians, and native Americans are animals that scalp each other -- that is your own judgement based on your visual-cortical lens filter that you have subconsciously applied to the way you view the world and the people that inhabit it.

Exactly my point - it's barbaric to me, because I've been brought up in a society where we consider this barbaric. When you see someone in the middle east get beheaded, we cringe. To them, it's just law that's been passed down generation after generation. It's a way of life.

I'm not saying christians did it better. I'm just saying that christianity had an insane amount of influence in Europe and that got brought over to the Western Society (and slowly to the whole world really). And that's what we know and live by - I mean our calendar is even christian based ffs...

The catholic church is mostly to blame for this.

[!LittleDragon]

Originally Posted by XSSIV

But... you're talking about a society that's been built on these Abrahamic laws we're discussing... How about we look at North Korea? I wouldn't exactly call that a functioning society.

North Korea isn't exactly a land of plenty either. For the most part, the general public if fairly civilized. Mostly because of fear... you misbehave, you're going to disappear.

My observations are that the more people have, the less crime there is because it's no longer necessary. Sure you're going to have a murder here and there due to personal spats but killing someone for a loaf of bread so you can eat is not likely going to happen anymore.

Just a different point of view. Some say religion brought an end to this behaviour but I say it's the availability of resources.

[XSSIV]

North Korea isn't exactly a land of plenty either.

But it could be if it wasn't run by dingbats...

My observations are that the more people have, the less crime there is because it's no longer necessary. Sure you're going to have a murder here and there due to personal spats but killing someone for a loaf of bread so you can eat is not likely going to happen anymore.

I agree with what you say. But I don't know how much killing there's really been over a loaf of bread - how's Venezuela doing? They'll kill you over anything there...

However, even if it didn't happen the concept was written a long time ago, the first murder recorded in there was over jealousy. Cain killed his brother Able. Gives an idea of such a primitive concept from thousands of years ago and we're still capable of the exact same thing today no mater how well off we are.

[!LittleDragon]

Originally Posted by XSSIV

I agree with what you say. But I don't know how much killing there's really been over a loaf of bread - how's Venezuela doing? They'll kill you over anything there...

Interesting you brought up Venezuela. They were improving until recently. Their economy is in shambles, currency isn't worth much and there isn't enough resources to go around. People have to commit crimes to survive.

They're 70% Catholic and 29% Protestant. If the country is 99% Christian, shouldn't these crimes be almost none existent? Or can that be blamed on the 1% atheist and other religions?

[XSSIV]

Interesting you brought up Venezuela. They were improving until recently. Their economy is in shambles, currency isn't worth much and there isn't enough resources to go around. People have to commit crimes to survive.

They're 70% Catholic and 29% Protestant. If the country is 99% Christian, shouldn't these crimes be almost none existent? Or can that be blamed on the 1% atheist and other religions?

Yeah my father is from Venezuela and I have family there and I've been there several times in my life. Venezuela has always been in shambles. I think it's more related to political choices/influence/allies - but I believe that all South America is like this. My mother is from Chile and I've lived there for some time.

Like I've mentioned before, Christianity doesn't mean squat. All I've said from the beginning is that with a Christian influence in a society, what we consider acceptable and not acceptable has derived from Christian law/values/doctrine - what ever you want to call it. That countries without ever having heard of these ways, do things differently and do things in a way that we would view it as barbaric or whatever.

And the reason I said this was in response to the comment that human nature leads to positive results without religion - but I believe it's opposite in the sense that I believe we humans are driven by instinct. And our Instinct drives us to, not necessarily do bad, because bad is subjective, but do whatever is in our best interest.

Societies in history have - without the help of religion - figured a few things out. But they've basically reinvented the wheel - being something that was figured out thousands of years ago by man or divine intervention or whatever you want to call it. Don't kill. Don't steal. Don't lie. Don't kill yourself. Work hard. Don't be lazy. Watch how much alcohol you consume - etc etc...

What we consider "morals" derives a lot from Christianity.

[Badhobz]

Originally Posted by XSSIV

What we consider "morals" derives a lot from Christianity.

No it doesn't.

If you ever studied some ancient philosophers like Aristotle, Plato, or any stoic philosophy, you can see they were saying the same things long before christianity even had roots.

https://www.philosophybasics.com/branch_stoicism.html

Similarly, LaoZi in China also had moral philosophy without any influence of christianity.

https://www.ancient.eu/Lao-Tzu/

Christianity as a whole isnt that "old". Remember, the Romans saw Christians before as we currently view ISIS. Nothing more than a terrorist sect bent on overthrowing their contemporary world.

[XSSIV]

No it doesn't.

I said what WE consider morals... as in what North America was built on.

The US has Christianity written all over it for a reason.

Everyone civilization had their own morals and many cross over because they're common sense of course.

[Mr.Money]

religion or not....we are just evolved animals who think we control everything.

[Badhobz]

Originally Posted by XSSIV

I said what WE consider morals... as in what North America was built on.

The US has Christianity written all over it for a reason.

Everyone civilization had their own morals and many cross over because they're common sense of course.

That's why I said some morals are universal. Not murdering people and trying to live in peace with your surroundings is hardly a Christian value.

[fliptuner]

I bet Jenna Haze is super religious.

[westopher]

300 catholic priests walk into a bar in Pennsylvania
They all look at each other and wonder why they are somewhere where all the boys are over 21.

[welfare]

So question (to anyone):
Do you think that people who believe that there may be judgment (by a God) during life and after death are (more), (less), (as) likely to live a life of strong moral character as those who don't?

Also, What would be the disadvantages to living life as if there were a God?