Canadian politics thread

[van_city23]

Originally Posted by AstulzerRZD

Your 9th gen has to be approaching 200k km at this point right?
With 2022-24 numbers:

Compared to Civic LX in BC
- Gas savings make up price difference: 50k with subsidy/110k without
- Gas savings make up entire cost of Model 3: 240/290k km

Compared to 3 series
- Gas savings make up entire cost of Model 3: 120k/160k km

The Lightning is a free truck after 130k km without subsidy.
Free truck after 112k km with subsidy.

I don't like driving EVs but man, short of like a GR Corolla/Type R/Elantra N, case for gas car getting pretty slim these days even without subsidy.

Interesting numbers. I'm assuming this is only gas savings and doesn't add in the additional cost of electricity? I don't have an EV so don't really have a clue on what the increase hydro bill would be.

[AstulzerRZD]

Originally Posted by van_city23

Interesting numbers. I'm assuming this is only gas savings and doesn't add in the additional cost of electricity? I don't have an EV so don't really have a clue on what the increase hydro bill would be.

Yeah the math is totally confusing - answering your question a directly, for 20k kms a year:
- Model 3: $300 BC Hydro per year
- Lightning: $600 / $1200 Towing
vs.
- Civic LX: $2400
- F-150 5.0: $6000 / $11000 Towing

My breakeven adds in the additional cost of electricity ... here's my math
1) Civic LX is 19c/km
2) Model 3 uses 15kWh/100km, 3.5c/km at home
3) Model 3 public charging is 14c/km

The counterpoint here is that you MUST drive an EV a lot in 8-10 yrs to make your money back.
Batteries only have a 10 year or so life span because calendar again is 60-80% of wear.
Charging/cycles/heat is only 20-40%.

[AstulzerRZD]

Originally Posted by JDMDreams

Are they still doing that 2030 no gas thing? No way they are getting there if they don't subsidize or let China cars in

Don't think that's happening.
Even when it was, even hybrid were ok since they're "zero emission".

[Hondaracer]

Good thing we spent all that time pushing it.

[AstulzerRZD]

I’m a fiscal conservative — we should’ve done this way earlier
Coming out of the gates swinging gives us leverage to shape policy and push manufacturers to invest or negotiate.

TBH think ppl are making this way too political.
The same poor states complaining about this shit are also those that would benefit the most from a $150/month lease
For most people, hybrid/EV are quieter, cheaper to maintain and better than gas car for most applications.

Specific to government, we can stick our heads in the sand and ignore it or really adopt this shit and improve our governments' cost structure on gas/maintenance.
Have you seen the bills for diesel school bus emissions, SFU bus maintenance, and general busses?

[Hondaracer]

Charging infrastructure is the biggest hurdle a country like Canada will never overcome. It will never make fiscal sense to install chargers in the most remote places.

Charging stations need 3 phase infrastructure. The vast majority of remote and rural areas and roads/highways MIGHT have single phase.

Underground civil works in urban areas currently cost about $1200 a foot to trench and install ducting. The costs rise substantially for rural areas.

Does it make sense to spend 20 million dollars to install a charger on the Kelowna connector? And that’s not even that inaccessible lol..

Auto manufacturers will have to be the ones that drive the change in longer range batteries because no one is ever going to stomach the costs of building proper infrastructure

A diesel truck with a tidy tank in the back could drive 2500+ KM’s without stopping

[AstulzerRZD]

That’s a fair concern but it overlooks how infrastructure actually scales.

First, no one is saying every remote road needs Level 3 charging. Even gas stations aren’t everywhere, you plan your routes around where they are. Same logic applies.

Second, the vast majority of Canada’s population lives along major corridors where grid capacity and demand already justify upgrades. Electrifying those areas yields 90% of the benefit for 10% of the geography.

Third, tech solutions already exist to cover gaps. Most DC fast chargers are battery-backed to avoid grid upgrades, slashing installation costs.

So no, we won’t (and don’t need to) wire every forest highway. But saying some places are hard so we shouldn’t invest at all is like saying we shouldn’t have paved roads because gravel was cheaper.

[AstulzerRZD]

Originally Posted by Hondaracer

A diesel truck with a tidy tank in the back could drive 2500+ KM’s without stopping

Yeeee exactly, did you read the policy proposals?
Medium and heavy-duty trucks were explicitly exempt from combustion-only bans.

Again, tech solutions exist -look at the RAMCharger, modeled after locomotive powertrains. Silverado already has 450 miles of real world highway range.

Plus, today’s EV truck regen brake have more consistent control than the turbo brakes and have more power than diesel 2500.

I’ve got a 6.7 Powerstroke and a drove the new ZF8 Cummins. Honestly? They’re stiff, loud, and a pain to drive.

[Traum]

I am not convinced that 3 phase power is really required in remote and rural areas. There are charging stations, most notably the ones that Chevron uses (I forgot the name of the manufacturer that made them), only requires regular 220V power. It has a battery inside to provide L3-like charging speeds as long as the battery has not been depleted. And if the battery has been depleted, then it'll just charge at L2 speeds.

In remote areas, you only need enough charging to get you thru to the next charging station.

I have no delusions to think that consumer level EVs can do 1000km days like ICE cars can -- at least not now. And long distance EV travel is almost certainly going to take longer than the same travel in ICE. It is certainly do-able, esp in urban and suburban places.

[JDMDreams]

Can't they just use power wall/ solar and install near gas stations. Like battery can charge when there's no use, and build up reserves and just discharge when there's users. Especially if it's rural, the down time to charge might be higher than it is being used.

[Great68]

I agree that the 2030 90% full EV targets seem way too ambitious, but I haven't seen BC even so much at hint at rolling that back?

Agree that that the infrastructure is never going to get there by 2030 (where 90% must be EV).

The whole idea of a mandate is stupid IMO anyways. Let people choose what works best for them.

[AstulzerRZD]

It was never an EV target - was always just hybrid/PHEV/EV for light duty passenger cars and trucks.

Medium and heavy duty vehicles were always exempt.

[westopher]

Simple solution. Buy e36 13 years ago for 13k, spend 4k on gas every year, now car is worth 40k so 13 years of driving as only cost me like sub 10k
You'd lose that in 16 minutes of depreciation in a Tesla.

[AstulzerRZD]

Originally Posted by Traum

I have no delusions to think that consumer level EVs can do 1000km days like ICE cars can -- at least not now. And long distance EV travel is almost certainly going to take longer than the same travel in ICE. It is certainly do-able, esp in urban and suburban places.

I feel winter is probably the biggest detractor; really fucks with charging.

In the summer, I've actually done 800km day in Ioniq, Taycan and Lucid.
At this point is really just Teslas charging slow af.

Lucid has 800km real world, NY to Boston and back in one shot because Enterprise said I didn't need to bring it back with charge.

Ioniq I took NY to Toronto for NEXUS interview, 1000km?
Charged for 30 mins total

[AstulzerRZD]

Originally Posted by JDMDreams

Can't they just use power wall/ solar and install near gas stations. Like battery can charge when there's no use, and build up reserves and just discharge when there's users. Especially if it's rural, the down time to charge might be higher than it is being used.

Yeah, most stations already do this even if there is 3 phase power.
Tesla Superchargers, Electrify Canada/America all use Tesla Powerwalls.

On the Run uses these shitty freewire stations - company went bankrupt but they mostly do the job:
https://smartchargeamerica.com/elect...6KCo5tgl-upl7a

[Hondaracer]

Originally Posted by Traum

I am not convinced that 3 phase power is really required in remote and rural areas. There are charging stations, most notably the ones that Chevron uses (I forgot the name of the manufacturer that made them), only requires regular 220V power. It has a battery inside to provide L3-like charging speeds as long as the battery has not been depleted. And if the battery has been depleted, then it'll just charge at L2 speeds.

In remote areas, you only need enough charging to get you thru to the next charging station.

I have no delusions to think that consumer level EVs can do 1000km days like ICE cars can -- at least not now. And long distance EV travel is almost certainly going to take longer than the same travel in ICE. It is certainly do-able, esp in urban and suburban places.

You ain’t running multiple chargers off single phase, period.

If you have a bank of anything more than a single charger, it’s 3 phase.

The hydrogen stations you’re seeing installed in the lower mainland now are requiring their own pad mounted transformers to power their pumps and storage tanks independent of the gas stations power. So it goes to show what’s required with stuff like this.

[AstulzerRZD]

That's just wrong bro

1) Freewire DC Fast Chargers - single phase, max 150A but can be installed on less.
2) No one said they had to go full EV in rural; even with the most restrictive proposed law they can go buy a 2500 gas/diesel/beluga sperm truck

[Great68]

One single 15kV phase can handle 30,000kW.....

That can more than handle a few fast chargers along the way...

[Hondaracer]

Reading a bit into Tesla superchargers, each charger is rated at 192 amps. And in the states, they are powered by a 277y480V system which we do not have in BC any longer.

People on these Tesla forums who build these sites are also saying that any station with 6-8 stalls require a 500KVA+ transformer, which is only supplied by 3 phase, at least in BC.

The theory may say one thing, but I implore you to find a charging site with more than 1 charger that’s installed by a municipality that uses single phase.

Won’t get into it too deep but I’m dealing with CoV on a few sites and there isn’t a single one using a single phase service.

[AstulzerRZD]

https://www.plugshare.com/location/479995

How about these sites?

They have 2 of the FreeWire chargers, each of which could theoretically run off of single phase.

[Hondaracer]

Originally Posted by AstulzerRZD

https://www.plugshare.com/location/479995

How about these sites?

They have 2 of the FreeWire chargers, each of which could theoretically run off of single phase.

Yea looks like a 400 amp service there, I’m not sure of how the batteries work in these scenarios which makes it more feasible to service. Are these chargers even close to the Tesla superchargers though?

[Great68]

500kVA Single Phase transformers exist Secondary voltage can be whatever you want. So it might not be a "telsa supercharger" but sure enough some other brand is more than capable of making a product that works. This is not some insurmountable problem.

[underscore]

For remote service it seems like it'd be easier to have some kind of highly efficient on-site generation rather than trying to run copper everywhere. Use hydrogen or diesel or something.

[bcrdukes]

Does the current Liberal leadership (or any political party) have a position on EV infrastructure in Canada as a federal agenda item?

[AstulzerRZD]

Originally Posted by Hondaracer

Yea looks like a 400 amp service there, I’m not sure of how the batteries work in these scenarios which makes it more feasible to service. Are these chargers even close to the Tesla superchargers though?

All cars will get the 200kw charge rate on this because it supports 800V.

Whereas on 400V Supercharger that claims 250kW, 800V cars like Lucid/Porsche pulls 50kW and Ioniq pulls 100 instead of 350.

But, this charger cannot sustain multiple cars over and over again.
Once the battery runs out, it will only provide 10kW or so.