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The thin line between love and hate
Mature discussion about understanding the opposite sex...

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Old 12-31-2008, 05:34 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by ZhangFei View Post
Exactly. You can only believe in love. But you know what, sometimes faith can supercede logical certainty.

People who believe in God have made that first step to take that leap of faith that God exists.

I think its just the same thing as atheists that take that leap of faith to fall in love with another.

This is how I see things though.

This is more subjective than objective. Which is why this topic sounds psychotic hahahahaha.
I just read more of what has been said throughout this thread. In the beginning the statement was, "believing in the existence of love is a big leap of faith like believing in god".

the statement highlighted above, does not mean the same thing as what was said in the beginning. are we still talking about the existence of love or committing our love for another person? I know I'm getting into wording too hard but I state what I see wrong lol.

In any case, again, ask yourself, does it really take big leap of faith to commit yourself to your long time girlfriend? does it take a big leap of faith to believe that your family is important enough to you that will take a bullet for them?

Love is also about levels. The level of love you have for someone. Humans in general have a love for everyone in humanity, but it's all about levels and everyone has a different scale. For me, I love my family enough that I would give my life for them. I love my friends to the point where I would risk my life for them while there are others I would give my life for them. I love humanity enough that I will sacrifice myself to save a million people from a nuclear bomb (it has to be a LOT of people).

I dunno if im geting off topic or not but I just think putting the existence of Love and the existence of God into the same sentence is the stupidest thing lol no offense.

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Old 12-31-2008, 06:01 PM   #52
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It does not take a leap of faith for me to belief that gays exist. (Lance Bass wants to pound a guy) logic
It does not take a leap of faith for me to belief that love exist. (Lance Bass pounding that guy) logic
It does take a big leap of faith that for example the Christian God exist. (a being who exist beyond time and space created everything in a short matter of time, who punishes people with eternal torture but loves you, and will let you play with his son who was born from a virgin and who is really him for eternity if you belief in his existence and worship him.........yea I can believe that... not)
if there is equally no proof then whats the difference. you dont believe in god. i dont believe in love. there's no proof of either. all the same to me.
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Old 12-31-2008, 06:33 PM   #53
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if there is equally no proof then whats the difference. you dont believe in god. i dont believe in love. there's no proof of either. all the same to me.
Maybe you misunderstood what I've said in my previous post as you've obviously assumed I said there is equally no proof for the existence of both.

In any case I googled it up and here is something I got,

"Is there scientific proof that love exist?"

Of course.

First, it is an emotion and you can devise repeatable tests to measure it. You can run a study asking random people of they are in love, vs. those about to be married.

Second, it is well known that love has a chemical basis in the brain. Many hormones involved in love are fairly well known. Oxytocin, vasopressin, testosterone, estrogen, etc. all lead to various love-related feelings - pair bonding, lust, comfort, jealousy/protective behaviors, etc. You can predict if someone is in love (and often whether it is romantic or a child and parent relationship, etc.), by measuring levels of these chemicals.

Third, MRI studies of the brains show similiar kinds of activities when patients are undergoing certain emotions. Love being one of them. Scientists know that certain brain activities indicate love and/or other emotions.

Forth, we can force such behaviors (and presumably the emotion) on lesser mammals (moles, and mice) by giving them injections of certain hormones and/or electrically stimulating various centers of the brain. Give a male rat enough vasopressin and he will pair-bond with any female rat and get darn agressive towards other males.

I really hope you don't actually fail to see the difference between leap of faith in god and love.
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Old 12-31-2008, 07:27 PM   #54
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This topic is really crazy LOL.

Okay I do admit the lovey dovey emotion exists, but its not what love really is. If you want to break love into chemical reactions, then is the guy who's high on ecstasy and full of chemicals putting in his system, in love with the girl he is dancing with then?

Love is abstract, as abstract as the notion of God. We really don't know what both of them are.

Have you guys heard of the rhesus monkey experiment?



would you say this baby monkey is in love with its "mother" then?
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Old 12-31-2008, 09:11 PM   #55
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This topic is really crazy LOL.

Okay I do admit the lovey dovey emotion exists, but its not what love really is. If you want to break love into chemical reactions, then is the guy who's high on ecstasy and full of chemicals putting in his system, in love with the girl he is dancing with then?

Love is abstract, as abstract as the notion of God. We really don't know what both of them are.

Have you guys heard of the rhesus monkey experiment?

would you say this baby monkey is in love with its "mother" then?

kind of the same idea for me. if i sniff some gas and it makes me feel emotional toward a potted plant, is this feeling real? maybe i guess, since im acting on it, but its not something id seek or willingly act on. sure there are chemical reactions happening but that alone doesnt make it real for me. same with love.

and like zhang said, for one we agree, i could give some mice some ecstasy and they would feel some love like feelings too. would those be real? for some people yes, i guess they would consider that real. fleeting emotions, be they love, jealousy, paranoia i feel more like they're malfunctions. like if your brain is operating properly, you arent going to be affected by them, and if you are, then you need to start watching your self and what you do and the 'reasons' behind them, cause there is a good chance that the reasons do not make any real sense.
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Old 01-01-2009, 12:12 PM   #56
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Your beliefs for your god or no god do not dictate emotion.
Word. Your beliefs in God or no God also do not dictate your moral beliefs either.
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Old 01-01-2009, 03:34 PM   #57
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how about this, if you werent aware of the emotion of 'love' objectively, could you love? Or would you simply be responding to stimulus?
I think it has to do with conscious experience of your feelings that creates the 'intangable' concepts like love that we're talking about.
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Old 01-01-2009, 05:41 PM   #58
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This is from Wikipedia...


Biological models of love tend to see it as a mammalian drive, similar to hunger or thirst;[citation needed] psychology sees love as more of a social and cultural phenomenon. There are probably elements of truth in both views. Certainly love is influenced by hormones (such as oxytocin), neurotrophins (such as NGF), and pheromones, and how people think and behave in love is influenced by their conceptions of love. The conventional view in biology is that there are two major drives in love: sexual attraction and attachment. Attachment between adults is presumed to work on the same principles that lead an infant to become attached to its mother. The traditional psychological view sees love as being a combination of companionate love and passionate love. Passionate love is intense longing, and is often accompanied by physiological arousal (shortness of breath, rapid heart rate); companionate love is affection and a feeling of intimacy not accompanied by physiological arousal.

Studies have shown that brain scans of those infatuated by love display a resemblance to those with a mental illness. Love creates activity in the same area of the brain that hunger, thirst, and drug cravings create activity in. New love, therefore, could possibly be more physical than emotional. Over time, this reaction to love mellows, and different areas of the brain are activated, primarily ones involving long-term commitments. Dr. Andrew Newberg, a neuroscientist, suggests that this reaction to love is so similar to that of drugs because without love, humanity would die out.

I think it's funny to even think it's a leap of faith to believe in the existence of love.

And you fail by using the following analogy,

"One atheistic argument against the existence of God is that there no God because look at all the evil in the world. If God really loves us, then why is there so much evil going on?

And then to go with that similar line of inquiry, if there is really love in the world, why are there so many broken hearts and broken or dull relationships in this world?"

God is supposedly all loving and all powerful so why does he allow evil to exist in the world when he has the ability to make it go away.
Love on the other hand can co-exist alongside hate and broken hearts.
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Old 01-01-2009, 06:34 PM   #59
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okay if a man really loves a woman and has publicly made his marriage vows to her, why would he allow himself to make her upset by beating her, ignoring her, or having extra-marital affairs when he has the ability to not do that in the first place?
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Old 01-01-2009, 06:47 PM   #60
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okay if a man really loves a woman and has publicly made his marriage vows to her, why would he allow himself to make her upset by beating her, ignoring her, or having extra-marital affairs when he has the ability to not do that in the first place?
him being a jackass does not deny the existence of love.
people fall in love and fall out of love
love is not always everlasting
this does not deny the existence of love
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Old 01-01-2009, 07:33 PM   #61
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him being a jackass does not deny the existence of love.
people fall in love and fall out of love
love is not always everlasting
this does not deny the existence of love
Well said, love is not always forever and isn't always recipicle. People sometimes fall out of love it doesn't mean that it was never there. You really don't have to look any further then the divorce rates in North America.
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Old 01-01-2009, 07:53 PM   #62
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him being a jackass does not deny the existence of love.
people fall in love and fall out of love
love is not always everlasting
this does not deny the existence of love
if people fall out of love that's even MORE PROOF that people will believe in something that they thought was real and in turns out wasn't even real in the first place.

but for them to believe it was real in the first place, it did take a leap of faith didn't it?


(just say yes.)
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Old 01-01-2009, 08:42 PM   #63
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if people fall out of love that's even MORE PROOF that people will believe in something that they thought was real and in turns out wasn't even real in the first place.

but for them to believe it was real in the first place, it did take a leap of faith didn't it?


(just say yes.)
LOL, how is that proof of anything? I'll really simplify it, lets say you enjoyed a certain type of music when you we're a kid. The kind of stuff you'd hear on sesame street like wheels on the bus go round and round. You're now an adult and no longer like that music. Does that mean when you were a kid you never liked it in the first place? How do you know what it is to like something? I mean seriously you could go in circles for ever you just do.

As for this whole leap of faith thing you keep going back to I don't get how it relates to love. Maybe I just don't get it but you keep saying the samething over and over and really it doesn't make any sense to me. You're comparing apples and mountains and adamant they are both edible.
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Old 01-01-2009, 09:01 PM   #64
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it makes perfect sense. you want to believe in love so when the op presents it self, soem women you have feelings for, you let yourself think that you've fallen in love and: base how you should act next off it, and use it as an excuse for other things that you may do but would not have other wise. ie: i dont just kiss her ass but i lick the pond scum from between her toes but its ok.......cause we're in love. bullshit. you're just weak
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Old 01-01-2009, 10:07 PM   #65
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omg i have no love for you because in my own opinion you start stupid threads and i can't get points for saying my opinion right?

so like you think you can be all pseudo-intellectual and stuff but you just have like this really flimsy argument that we're all TOTALLY tired of reading. you're obviously trying to convince us of something that we're not wanting to be convinced of.

like you want to come off so smart right? thats what you're trying to do right? well then suck it up and know that there are other opinions aside from yours. we all know that you're like some wannabe philosopher and thats why you post threads where you try to start these soooo deep topics but you just come off like you're waving some sort of flag saying 'listen to me! listen to me!'

smart people totally listen, not talk. two ears, one mouth. thats how "GOD" made us.
I live for this post!
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Old 01-01-2009, 10:14 PM   #66
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I think thats a pretty bad comparison.. love and god?

God/Religion in my opinion is crap fabricated by people to manipulate others.
While leaving NO proof at ALL that god actually exists.

While love on the other hand is an emotion, which everyone is born with i believe.. an the proof of that is the way you feel when your with your SO or other emotions like Jealousy.. AKA - Everyone can feel love compared to a few hand full of crazy people who says I saw god in my sleep! he speaks to me!...
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Old 01-01-2009, 11:37 PM   #67
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I think thats a pretty bad comparison.. love and god?

God/Religion in my opinion is crap fabricated by people to manipulate others.
While leaving NO proof at ALL that god actually exists.

While love on the other hand is an emotion, which everyone is born with i believe.. an the proof of that is the way you feel when your with your SO or other emotions like Jealousy.. AKA - Everyone can feel love compared to a few hand full of crazy people who says I saw god in my sleep! he speaks to me!...
I do admit, if you see it in some perspectives, religion is manipulative. I never said that there is proof God exists. I just said that people believe God exists.

just because you share a good vibe with someone doesn't mean its love. you can believe it is, but it isn't necessarily 100% love. its just a word people pass around that they don't know what they are talking about. we can only believe its there.

And just to play the devil's advocate, there's no proof that love exists. Its fabricated by people to manipulate others. Holidays we have such as valentines day, mothers day, father's day, christmas etc is purely to manipulate human emotions so we have to spend money from our pockets on lavish gifts just because we "love them". Do you know how many industries we have that boom just because of the belief that love is real? lemme think, flowers, chocolates, food industry, hotel industry, travel industry, etc etc these are multi-million dollar industries that flourish all in the name of love.
do you know what is the best selling type of book nowadays? women's romance novels. what are the best selling songs nowadays? love songs. they sell more records than anything else

now granted, I really don't believe half of this shit that i posted in the last paragraph. this is all perspective.
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Old 01-01-2009, 11:49 PM   #68
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LOL, how is that proof of anything? I'll really simplify it, lets say you enjoyed a certain type of music when you we're a kid. The kind of stuff you'd hear on sesame street like wheels on the bus go round and round. You're now an adult and no longer like that music. Does that mean when you were a kid you never liked it in the first place? How do you know what it is to like something? I mean seriously you could go in circles for ever you just do.

As for this whole leap of faith thing you keep going back to I don't get how it relates to love. Maybe I just don't get it but you keep saying the samething over and over and really it doesn't make any sense to me. You're comparing apples and mountains and adamant they are both edible.
If you like something, you like something. Its simple. Its just preference. Everybody has their own preference of what they like and don't like. Granted, we may change our preference overtime due to age or change in the zeigeist of the times. But if you say that you love someone and don't anymore, it wasn't the real thing in the first place.

The whole leap of faith that i keep on saying is that when people are in love they "just know it". Its choice of emotion over reason. you can't rationalize love. you can't find love "out there". its really a subjective feeling that science can't touch.
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Old 01-02-2009, 12:10 AM   #69
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^ you should be selling used cars.
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Old 01-02-2009, 01:40 AM   #70
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If you like something, you like something. Its simple. Its just preference. Everybody has their own preference of what they like and don't like. Granted, we may change our preference overtime due to age or change in the zeigeist of the times. But if you say that you love someone and don't anymore, it wasn't the real thing in the first place.

The whole leap of faith that i keep on saying is that when people are in love they "just know it". Its choice of emotion over reason. you can't rationalize love. you can't find love "out there". its really a subjective feeling that science can't touch.
Well, we don't have to believe in God to love. That is what a lot of us are saying. It is your opinion that we are wrong but thats fine...leave it to your opinion. I will not let a book dictate what I know and what I feel. And I definately won't let you dictate it. Unless you can walk on water or part some seas, then its going to be tough to get any of us to join your cult...er...a....religion. Same goes for me...I will not tell you what to believe in because thats your choice.

This is going to be a tough crowd man. There are a lot of us athiests out there. Probably more athiests than you would ever want to believe. Its the new (well, old actually) movement designed to help people think for themselves. You should try it sometime.
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Old 01-02-2009, 02:20 AM   #71
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haha well ZhangFei you sound like a normal person who is just has this particular view of something most of us don't. But I totally understand how you're looking at love, that it should require a leap of faith to believe that you are in fact in love with them even when all hell breaks lose after marriage.

Let's ignore the fact that it DOES NOT take a leap of faith to know that love exist between a mother and a child, or families in that manner. It's human nature and most animals. And for the record, every other family that hate each other... DOES NOT make it a leap of faith to love them in the first place before they hated eachother.

Getting back to the leap of faith to love someone, marry them, and divorcing them, so therefore it requires that leap of faith to believe that love exist between the two people.
First of all, let's look at FAITH. Faith as most of us atheist look at it is.. to believe in something without proof. We all know that to get married to someone, its all about the evidence, the months, years of relationships with someone, the sex, the parties, the lies, the pain, the fights, the makeup sex, all of that weighs in on the mind of both parties to consider marriage, and they believe that that is enough evidence for them to believe that they love eachother. That in their definition, gives them valid proof of their love and DOES NOT take a leap of faith. If they fall out of love after marriage, that does not deny the fact that they had a legitimate reason to believe that they loved eachother in the past. They were not fooling themselves... although there are people who do fool themselves with love.

When i talked about love can be proven emotionally, chemicals in our head. And the response to that was....If you want to break love into chemical reactions, then is the guy who's high on ecstasy and full of chemicals putting in his system, in love with the girl he is dancing with then?
We can all agree... that love is not just emotionally evident but love is also demonstrated. We do things to show our love.

You are trying to equate 2 intangibles and say that since there is no evidence for one, why do you believe in the other? Which is some type of flawed logic, just not sure of the name.
Love has chemical and neurological evidence. That someone loves another has evidence (behaviors, actions, mannerisms, ect).

you are also trying to equate non-acting omnipotence with imperfect love. An omnipotent being is allowing evil when it will know how to stop it, vs a human falling in love with someone who doesn't even notice them.

And finally...
"I just think its funny how atheists ask for proof of a God when they don't ask for proof of the existence of love...."
We don't have to ask for what we already have
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Old 01-02-2009, 02:29 AM   #72
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What I find funny is how he can question the existence of love, but not the existence of god
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Old 01-02-2009, 10:14 AM   #73
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The belief in 'love' that he's talking about it only about two complete strangers falling 'in love'. In order to do all the acts of 'love'...ie kissing/hugging/protecting each other...etc etc....you must first 'believe' in this so called love.
I think the word GOD is what throws people off the most. It seems that this person/object/believe is too much of one thing for us to believe. Everything that has to associate with 'god'...aka the bible...Jesus...etc just seem to be too much bs to swallow. And people who believe in it....just seems alittle too crazy for scarficing so much or even dedicating their lives to it.

But in reference to love....what's the difference between your love to your SO...and someone else's love to god? Like what others said...it's all personal preference. You like blue, doesn't mean I have to like blue too.
It's one thing to have personal opinion....but I guess what ZF is trying to say is....loving god takes as much courage as loving a person.....you might not agree with the reasons why someone can love god/person A....but in the end it takes just as much effort to love either and both deserves the same amount of respect.
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Old 01-02-2009, 02:41 PM   #74
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haha well ZhangFei you sound like a normal person who is just has this particular view of something most of us don't. But I totally understand how you're looking at love, that it should require a leap of faith to believe that you are in fact in love with them even when all hell breaks lose after marriage.

Let's ignore the fact that it DOES NOT take a leap of faith to know that love exist between a mother and a child, or families in that manner. It's human nature and most animals. And for the record, every other family that hate each other... DOES NOT make it a leap of faith to love them in the first place before they hated eachother.

Getting back to the leap of faith to love someone, marry them, and divorcing them, so therefore it requires that leap of faith to believe that love exist between the two people.
First of all, let's look at FAITH. Faith as most of us atheist look at it is.. to believe in something without proof. We all know that to get married to someone, its all about the evidence, the months, years of relationships with someone, the sex, the parties, the lies, the pain, the fights, the makeup sex, all of that weighs in on the mind of both parties to consider marriage, and they believe that that is enough evidence for them to believe that they love eachother. That in their definition, gives them valid proof of their love and DOES NOT take a leap of faith. If they fall out of love after marriage, that does not deny the fact that they had a legitimate reason to believe that they loved eachother in the past. They were not fooling themselves... although there are people who do fool themselves with love.

When i talked about love can be proven emotionally, chemicals in our head. And the response to that was....If you want to break love into chemical reactions, then is the guy who's high on ecstasy and full of chemicals putting in his system, in love with the girl he is dancing with then?
We can all agree... that love is not just emotionally evident but love is also demonstrated. We do things to show our love.

You are trying to equate 2 intangibles and say that since there is no evidence for one, why do you believe in the other? Which is some type of flawed logic, just not sure of the name.
Love has chemical and neurological evidence. That someone loves another has evidence (behaviors, actions, mannerisms, ect).

you are also trying to equate non-acting omnipotence with imperfect love. An omnipotent being is allowing evil when it will know how to stop it, vs a human falling in love with someone who doesn't even notice them.

And finally...
"I just think its funny how atheists ask for proof of a God when they don't ask for proof of the existence of love...."
We don't have to ask for what we already have
please keep in mind i'm just trying to write this in an atheistic/scientific point of view

as for your mother and child analogy:

we as human beings are here for biological reasons: surviving and replicating. whatever the mother is doing is imprinted in her own biology to ensure her child can do the same to ensure the survival of their own species.

as your your marriage analogy:

i'm not going as to far as marriage. you must realize that marriage isn't proof of love at all. you're just saying something as absurd like if someone puts a ring on a woman's finger then it is love. and if they get want to get married, its for their own PERSONAL CONVICTIONS, aka the LEAP OF FAITH. a personal conviction isn't evidence for the real thing son.

if someone is personally convicted that God exists and then changes his or her life around 180 based on that conviction, that is not evidence that God really exists. its just their assumption and personal conviction that God exists. i'm sure you would agree to that.

skinnypupp: I do question hardcore legitimate evidence of the existence of God. all i can say is that I believe God exists. i also believe love exists too.
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why you hating on the boss, anyways?
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Old 01-02-2009, 02:46 PM   #75
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I think the word GOD is what throws people off the most. It seems that this person/object/believe is too much of one thing for us to believe. Everything that has to associate with 'god'...aka the bible...Jesus...etc just seem to be too much bs to swallow. And people who believe in it....just seems alittle too crazy for scarficing so much or even dedicating their lives to it.

But in reference to love....what's the difference between your love to your SO...and someone else's love to god? Like what others said...it's all personal preference. You like blue, doesn't mean I have to like blue too.
It's one thing to have personal opinion....but I guess what ZF is trying to say is....loving god takes as much courage as loving a person.....you might not agree with the reasons why someone can love god/person A....but in the end it takes just as much effort to love either and both deserves the same amount of respect.
Will you respect someone who believes he's the reincarnation of Elvis? The existence of the flying spaghetti monster? The existence of invisible little blue fairies on my shoulders? The are some opinions and beliefs we can have respect for and some things that are just irrational, illogical and crazy.
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