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Vancouver Off-Topic / Current EventsThe off-topic forum for Vancouver, funnies, non-auto centered discussions, WORK SAFE. While the rules are more relaxed here, there are still rules. Please refer to sticky thread in this forum.
reads most threads with his pants around his ankles, especially in the Forced Induction forum.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6793026
I agree this is sad, but really think of it from the police and SWAT's perspective.
I hear people saying why don't you just snipe. Do you know how much decision making and red tape you have to go through?
Negotiator to his boss who's analyzing the situation, then to police and multiple commander in chief (SWAT, police, negotiation specialist) AND then you probably have to go through the president of Philippines.
Decisions are made ONLY at the very last moment when negotiation FAILS with a point of no return would there be an order to kill. That takes another good hour until that passes down million of levels until it reaches to the sniper and his "partner".
Then you'll have to do the math and consider the muzzle velocity on the equipment you have, the level of accuracy, the sub-MOA (Minute Of Angle)accuracy, rifle twist ratios and eg// bullets between 40 and 65 grains you have to compensate the tumble after penetrating a target.
We have to keep in mind these are REAL bullets we are talking about, this is not COD MW2. Stop flaming... and just be thankful.
To put this into perspective, imagine you're playing paintball and you tell me if you're really going to be Rambo and just rush in. These are real lives and not where you can insert more coins and continue.
If this happens in chain that guy would get snipe down in 5mins no questions asked.
The SWAT and the police have so many fucking chanes. There were shots form video and pics that he guy was wide open for an sinpe shot.
Even in the beginning when he was talking to those 2 police, the police could easily use a tranquie shot or even later could gas him out.
And about the part where the beat and handcuff the ex police's brother in front of him was just BAD. Why would anyone in their right mind want to hurt his bro in front of him? That would just make him even more mad.
And using hammer and Axes to break the windows and doors. What are we? In the 17th ceuntry? Use something more effective.
Apple News shows them to be sitting in their respective seats.
in live vid footage, you can see the man that was machine gunned from inside the bus is sitting near the front, thus it's not like their initial report that they've all forced to the back.
And yeah, flight or fight, I'd agree if someone is going to do something about it in the bus I would too when i know the situation is deteriorating to a point he starts to kill off the hostages.
^
thank you. fight or flight. there's no where to flee. you fight.
c'mon skinnypupp. if you were on that bus, with your wife and or kids, even if you were 50 years old. i know you wouldn't of just sat there. and what fucking fucked up world this is, even if you have no relatives or friends on the bus, it shouldn't take them to trigger the want to save yourself and everyone else. what a selfish world this is.
^
thank you. fight or flight. there's no where to flee. you fight.
c'mon skinnypupp. if you were on that bus, with your wife and or kids, even if you were 50 years old. i know you wouldn't of just sat there. and what fucking fucked up world this is, even if you have no relatives or friends on the bus, it shouldn't take them to trigger the want to save yourself and everyone else. what a selfish world this is.
in situation like this....everyone are confused, and no ones want to take the risk and piss of the gunmen more or be responsible for other innocent's death while struggling with the gunmen.
the key is, no one knew whether the gunmen will start killing everyone at that point.
but after a story like this, I am sure if a similar situation happens again, people will flight back.
It is like 911...before 911, people usually sitback and do nothing during a plane hijack, but after 911, I can assure you the entire crews and passengers will fight back if you try to hijack a plane in the US.
don't bother translating the entire thing...but they DID try.
the hostages were at the back of the bus...like you said..there's only this narrow aisle on the bus...the gunman stepped back and fired when the hostages tried to rush to him. Killing the people who tried to fight back.
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the 14yr old girl died trying to block the bullets for her brother.
The ex cop can also mention he had a bomb on him or something. Even if you rush to get his gun, who knows what other weapons he had on him (at that very moment)
don't bother translating the entire thing...but they DID try.
the hostages were at the back of the bus...like you said..there's only this narrow aisle on the bus...the gunman stepped back and fired when the hostages tried to rush to him. Killing the people who tried to fight back.
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the 14yr old girl died trying to block the bullets for her brother.
If that article was true, then it overturns ulic's assumption of them being coward and hiding behind their seats. And what didmsome of us say this will hurt the tourism industry in philippines and have a negative impact? The evidence clearly shows here.
Most people think with their feelings and not with a clear mindset. Posted via RS Mobile
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its hard to think what one would do in that situation. would you, trying to be a hero, cause even more deaths? wut happens if u fail at subduing the gun men who is trained and then wut? u lose ur life? sure, but he gets mad n turns on all the kids for your failed attempt? your thoughts of martyrdom results in many mroe deaths. who could've forseen the end result? the situation must be hella dire for anyone to do anything. not an easy situation here plus the fact that this gun men was apparently nice at first so people might've been thinking if we just ride this out obediently it might work out. it is a confusing situations with thoughts going through your mind i cannot even imagine. I see your point though but we can only speculate since we don't even have enough facts on the actual events that unfolded but the attention right now shouldnt even be towards the hostages but towards the lack luster performance by people in uniforms that day, people who thought they were cops.
on another note i hope we focus on the issues at hand and leave the racism aside.
those people taking pictures are from another world... makes no sense to me how one can be so classless
Why are peoples reactions to things happening in other countries always so strong compared with then they are in Canada or USA. There have been multiple events such as this to happen in the USA but you don't think twice about going south.
People keep mentioning about corruption in the police force like its a new thing. I am sure in any South East Asian Country the levels of corruption are high. (Philippeans, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Thailand, etc.
The fact is that the media over covered this story. I guess the floods in Pakistan are a bit too boring for them.
Even the British guy who killed the US Marine in Phuket is completely blown out of proportion.
Ps. the updated apple daily is pretty intense.
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Probably because he tells it like it is and knows hockey better than you two dipshits? People respect his opinions, not like you two dipshits? He has a solid income, not like you two dipshits?
Ulic several of the victims had gun shot wound + stab wounds some of those wounds were fatal. Mrs.Leung, one of the survivor also mention that her husband were kill trying to stop the gunman. So its not like 0 ppl tried to stop the gunmen.
But in reality, i bet those that survive are the ones that play dead and hide instead of being rambo. Not saying that the ones that die were being heros but as according to witness at least one hero die and not only did he no save anybody his whole family got wipe out except for his wife. His fault? probably not, but if he had just pussied out instead maybe things would have ended differently for him
You can no compare this to a 911 situation. they were on a bus on land with the whole world's eyes on them and the promise of "skill" proffesional who were suppose to rescue them.
911, they are in the air with ZERO chance of outside rescue
I know you are thinking i would sacrifice myself to save others. But would you feel the same if you grab the gun and in the mist of the struggle spray bullet everywhere killing everybody and maybe even the gunman. and you are the only one that survive? This is a very enclose area with no room for error. You are confident that you can handle a M16 by holding on to its barrel but how do you know if the gunmen knows karate,taekwondo, wingchun, or even just simple military training to prevent their weapons from being taken control of or taken away?
There is way too many factor, it might sound like a good idea to observer I'm sure you would otherwise if you are the one involve
reads most threads with his pants around his ankles, especially in the Forced Induction forum.
Join Date: Mar 2004
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^^ I would pussy out and play dead. I have admit I don't have a hero in me.... well maybe when I have my own fmaily and they are threaten then that's a different story.
Ulic several of the victims had gun shot wound + stab wounds some of those wounds were fatal. Mrs.Leung, one of the survivor also mention that her husband were kill trying to stop the gunman. So its not like 0 ppl tried to stop the gunmen.
But in reality, i bet those that survive are the ones that play dead and hide instead of being rambo. Not saying that the ones that die were being heros but as according to witness at least one hero die and not only did he no save anybody his whole family got wipe out except for his wife. His fault? probably not, but if he had just pussied out instead maybe things would have ended differently for him
You can no compare this to a 911 situation. they were on a bus on land with the whole world's eyes on them and the promise of "skill" proffesional who were suppose to rescue them.
911, they are in the air with ZERO chance of outside rescue
I know you are thinking i would sacrifice myself to save others. But would you feel the same if you grab the gun and in the mist of the struggle spray bullet everywhere killing everybody and maybe even the gunman. and you are the only one that survive? This is a very enclose area with no room for error. You are confident that you can handle a M16 by holding on to its barrel but how do you know if the gunmen knows karate,taekwondo, wingchun, or even just simple military training to prevent their weapons from being taken control of or taken away?
There is way too many factor, it might sound like a good idea to observer I'm sure you would otherwise if you are the one involve
Wouldn't that just be one way of convincing yourself not to do it?
Another way of thinking would be, "The police are incompetent and I'm probably gonna die anyways. If I do something I might be able to save some people atleast."
What if the whole thing played out differently if someone inside did something? What IFs are pointless in arguments because the opposite argument can be used to negate it.
I think I'd last 2 hours with passive thinking. After that I'd be convinced that help isn't gonna come anytime soon and I have to do something myself. Like Ulic said, once 1 person dies, don't expect to be saved.
The bus driver would've been most effective at trying to wrestle the gun out of the culprit's hands. Sure he has one hand cuffed, but if he grabbed the rifle, no one would be caught if bullets started flying. Even when Mendoza started firing, the bus driver ran away by himself when he could've attacked the guy from behind.
I'm not sure how it really played out, but the husband who died was charging at the hostage-taker when he was already spraying bullets. And from the looks of it, he successfully covered some bullets meant for his wife. So if he pussied out, he'd probably be alive and his wife will probably be the one who's dead. In a situation like that, I'd rather be dead if my cowardice caused the life of my wife. For a lot of you, he may not be a hero for having been unsuccessful at saving more people, but what he did for his wife was heroic enough in my books.
We can say whatever we want, brag how heroic we'll be, criticize what they did wrong- but if we ever become involved in a situation like that, I hope we'll follow what we think is the right thing to do and not succumb to a mountain of excuses powered by our selfishness and cowardice.
Hero or coward, we're only humans. Whatever anyone did in that bus, I hope it was because they only meant well.
But it's not even that- It's just that as humans- we're all to selfish.
Life-threatening situation or not, it's not like we'll bother to lift a finger to help. We all have the mentality that "Oh- someone else will probably do it, so why should I bother." Even if it costs us nothing and happens right infront of us, we'll probably ignore it with the mindset that someone else will take care of it.
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:o
Last edited by ecchiecchi; 08-25-2010 at 03:01 AM.
It's pretty obvious that wasn't a SWAT team. "They just put helmets on certain people."
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecchiecchi
The bus driver would've been most effective at trying to wrestle the gun out of the culprit's hands. Sure he has one hand cuffed, but if he grabbed the rifle, no one would be caught if bullets started flying.
You're not thinking this one through. Last I checked the vid, batman wasn't driving the bus.
Quote:
Even when Mendoza started firing, the bus driver ran away by himself when he could've attacked the guy from behind.
Pretty much the Mainlander Chinese people say the Hong Kongers deserved it because they shouldn't travel abroad since China is such a good country. Kinda sad to see its been more tha 10 years since the Mainland and HK/Macau reunited yet when sensitive situation like these happens it shows that there is really nothing to merge the 2 societies together. HK will always be a colony either to the British or to China it seems... Sometimes I think I understand why some people feel Macau/Hong Kong/Taiwan should be one instead of being repatriated back to Mainland China.
We can say whatever we want, brag how heroic we'll be, criticize what they did wrong- but if we ever become involved in a situation like that, I hope we'll follow what we think is the right thing to do and not succumb to a mountain of excuses powered by our selfishness and cowardice.
It's not powered by selfishness but rather everyone's innate instinct to survive. Look at the animal kingdom and even at your most carnivorous of predators. Majority of them would rather flight > fight when encountered by a predator more dangerous than they are. Think of bears, snakes, leopards, et al. Hell, there are even some animals that pretend to be dead as a survival tool.
I can understand Ulic's bravado as the guy has an army background but to expect that from your average joe because it is what you expect of yourself..... Get real dude.
In fact, if we were in a hostage situation together and I see you agitating the hostage taker with your aspirations of heroics, I'd tell you to STFU and sit down. Ask any police squad or hostage negotiator what kind of hostage they prefer. If the risks of casualties are greater with compliant hostages or out-of-control hostages.
You have to remember, it may play out as heroics in your mind, but ultimately, you're not just gambling with your life, but you've also decided to gamble others.
I'm Half Chinese and Half Filipino. Was born and raised in the Philz all my life (before quite recently moving here) so I will do anything to back-up my country.
However, what I witnessed from this whole thing was really really embarrassing on my country's part, and was overall a very tragic event. There are no excuses for all the mistakes and short-comings our law enforcement teams have done.
Watched pretty much the whole thing live via CNN stream and it really made me cringe at the fact that there were so many things that the Philippine S.W.A.T. team or whoever, could have done to prevent the number casualties..
The Philippines is not a perfect place. In fact, it's pretty safe to say that it's very far from it. I'm just afraid of the backlash my country will receive (or is currently receiving) as a result of this. I can't blame Hong Kong for getting pissed at the Philippines, but honestly, one man and very poor hostage-situation handling from their part shouldn't generalize how my country is.
Despite the fact that I've only read the first and last two pages of this thread, from what I have gathered, I appreciate how most, if not, all of you have treated this manner in a mature way. Without all that "teh philipenz suckz a$s" bullshit.
And for that, you guys have my sincere thanks.
R.I.P. to everyone who fell victim that day..
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my rule of thumb when picking between 2 or more girls .. always go with the one with bigger boobs
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