The only person that looks bad here is YOU for only reading one side of the story idiot.

Only shops in Canada have good customer services.(in general) If this happens in other places. Once the motor is out of the shop and out of warranty, shops don't give a fuck.

Be careful as your statement is loaded with a great deal of assumptions.

I deal with shops in Washington State, Cali, New York and New Jersey and they dish out awesome customer service and will bend over backwards for their customers but engines and engine failures are hard to warrenty in this game, especially bc most of the shops know they are gonna get shit kicked, so they may not warrenty them for that reason, but they dont automatically refuse a warrently claim bc 'they dont give a fuck'.

its assumptions, assumptive language and rendering quick judgments that land customers v. shop owners/shops in hot water with each other. In situations that are not the best for either party, everyone needs to step back and reassess the large scope of the situation and understand all the facts. You may not necessarily agree with the facts, but if you can understand them, it may help each party come together to reach an amicable solution to the situation at hand. That would also keep these type of threads off the interweb.

Sorry to hear your trouble Ed....

BREAKING NEWS: Evogarage is now closed for business in Richmond, we will be reopening in Winnipeg. We feel sorry for all the trouble we have caused and promise to never rebuilt or touch another Honda/Toyota/JDM engine ever again. Howere if anyone needs work done on their John Deere farming equipment, please do not hesitate to contact us.

i wonder what their excuse is going to be next?

Agreed, you cannot begin work without notifying the buyer. That's a big no no. That is bad business and a potential lawsuit. As I understand from David's post, they made this a private sale and Ed never authorized for the engine to be rebuilt again in Winnipeg. Ed shouldn't have to pay for work he did not request.

But now David offered a warranty for a month, which means this could be considered a dealer sale. As a dealer David has a contractual obligation to as to the quality and fitness of the good he is selling to Ed.

If it was a private sale, it should have been kept private and David never should have endorsed a warranty. David is a dealer of such goods of that description and this can be misleading.

You do not necessarily require a receipt to sue. The case as it stands is a private sale, as mentioned by David himself, therefore a receipt may not be appropriate and not required for action against David.

To add to that, neither party requires representation and the party that is awarded will have their court costs waived.

This would actually be pretty interesting. I'm not lawyer but whether this sale was private or dealer raises a lot of questions.


Just some advice for people out there that may come across the same situation:

For any garage to express a limited warranty of only something minuscule like 1 week or 1 month, it doesn't mean anything unless you have signed a contract under seal expressing those terms with the dealer. Your courses of action include:

Sales of Good Act s.18 a
Assuming you are buying from a dealer, you made your purpose known (you want a functional motor), you show reliance on the seller, and it's not a sale under trade name. There is an implied condition as to the goods are reasonably fit for purpose. If it is faulty, this is a breach.

Sales of Good Act s.18 b
If goods are bought by description from a seller who deals in goods of that description, there is an implied condition that the goods are of merchantable quality. In this case the engine is not of merchantable quality.

It is arguable as to what is a reasonable time, having said that, this engine was rebuilt and showed signs of defects within a month and therefore not reasonably fit for purpose.

Why did you even bother posting?

Shops in the States NEED to uphold thier name since there's so much competition form other shops.

The Ratio of Shops/person in Canada vs US is such a huge difference. Shops in Canada don't have the same level of competition as shops in the states.


And can people fucking read before they start posting?

THE MOTOR STILL LEAKS OIL AFTER A SECOND REBUILD FROM THE SHOP IN WINNIPEG THAT WAS UNAUTHORIZED BY ED, WHICH DAVID FROM EVOGARAGE MADE HIM PAY FOR.

"Discount" or not. A shop doesn't redo thier work on a discount if they didn't fuck it up. This is not common courtesy or even a friendly courtesy. They were supposed to do it right from the start.

And hey look. The motor still leaks. After a second rebuild from the same shop. A rebuild that cost Ed $1500 that he did not authorize. It was sent back to them to check if anything was wrong. Clearly, this Machine shop didn't want the motor going to another shop, for them to figure out what they fucked up. Hence the rebuild.




Unless the initial rebuild was never done in the first place.

I have no relations with Either party.

So he sold a shitty rebuilt motor to Ed privately, then had unauthorized work done to it and still charged the customer. I think he has every right to be pissed off but unfortunately he is really only entitled to the second rebuild work done and shipping.

ever heard of good cop bad cop? no? look up negotiations 101

don't forget, shop owner also threatened to just keep the engine since there was "no receipt" for their cash deal AFER the unauthorized work has taken place WITHOUT a proper diagnosis. i'd be pretty pissed off at this dick move too

^. From what I read, the friends were there not to negotiate a better deal. They were there to intimidate the owner of the store.

But if they planned the good cop bad cop routine beforehand then you are right.
Posted via RS Mobile

I took my freshly built motor to the drag strip at 100km boosting 20 psi breaking it in with slicks,

and it still doesnt burn a drop of oil...

the rev limited drag racing argument is invalid here

^
+1

There are two schools of theory behind motor break in. You either take it easy like how Iron Chef described it (the most conventional way) or you wail the shit out of your freshly built motor on a consistent basis (i.e. drag racing with revs going to the limit to settle rings in etc.)

I've done both on one of my motors with no oil leaks, cracks. no oil burning- nothing. Just had to re-torque the head as usual. And this was a 2-stroke stroker motor revving out at 16K rpm.

What do you think the rev limiter is for? I find it ludicrous that I wouldn't be able to take my car up to my rev limiter. Especially if the engine has been appropriately built. If it was damaging to take it to say a 9000 rpm limit, then the limit should be lowered. Is it reasonable to say that you cannot use your oven at max heat or a blender at full speed?

Evo Garage or any garage for that matter knows the purpose and intention of the buyer, the product is that of performance and will be used to the full extent. Though its common sense that the garage should not be liable for what the buyer does to it after, if it isn't expressly communicated to the buyer, the garage will be liable.

+1, I am a fan of the latter. That's how Dad did it, that's how America does it, and it's worked out pretty well so far. WOT that bitch and go through as many gears as you can :fuckyea:

So like why did you bring a honda to an evo garage?:whistle:

The fact that he paid cash doesn't matter, just as he can pursue litigation with a company he can also do so with a person.

Dave sent the engine to Manitoba because that's where he is from and he has been using the same machine shop for a long time due to their track record. Is there good machine shops in the lower mainland? Sure there is but when it comes to rebuilding an engine you're usually better off to stick with what you know works IMO.

I don't think enough time has been spent on trouble shooting here, I would like to know exactly how the engine is burning oil, has the actual cause of the oil burning been determined?

Once upon a time, a customer/friend of mine had a B18C5 in his EG hatch that was burning a lot of oil, passed comp and leakdown with flying colors so we decided to re-ring the bottom end hoping it would solve the issue. Well it didn't, so once again we took the engine apart and rebuil the head with all new valves and seals... got it back together and sure enough it still burnt oil like a MOFO.

At this point were both frustrated, I would only take his money to cover cost of parts/machine work, all the assembly I did for free, was this the right choice? I'm not sure but since he was a good friend I didn't care. In the end he would end up selling the car, next guy also rebuilt the engine and the problem still persisted.

I've owned and worked on many B18c5/R engines and can honestly say that I don't think 1L/1000km is actually that terrible, if you're bagging on it you should expect quite a bit of consumption IMO. The point where ITR engine burns too much oil IMO is when you see massive blue clouds coming out of the back of the car.

Are you running a cat? All that black crap on your bumper is probably not oil, more like a combination of oil and gas, and will always happen if you're running catless.

I think it's pretty obvious here that Dave did not have any bad intentions yet everyone is painting him up like a crook, given the two sides of the story I encourage everyone to put yourself in Dave's shoes and see how you would deal with the situation. If for some reason it was possible to prove with absolute certainty that the oil burning issues was due to a mistake Dave had made I have no doubts that he wouldn't hesitate to rectify the situation.

Really want to emphasize that these engines in my experience burn a lot of oil, I can remember back when USDM ITR first came out I had friends that were complaining about oil burning within the first year or so of owning them.

For anyone in this thread who is bitching and doesn't have a lot of personal experience with B18C5/R engine, you need to understand they consume A LOT of oil. Google "Type R oil burn" and you'll find about a billion threads on the matter.

Disclaimer, yes I know there is other B series engine, but in my experience the ITR engine seems to consume more oil than b16a, b16b, b18c1, etc even though the engines are of course very similar.

My advice, if you really think you are burning too much oil, drive the car for an entire oil change with rev limit at 4.5k rpm, if you find that you still use 1L/1000km then yes there is probably an issue that needs attention. But I'm willing to bet if you keep the rev's down and drive like an old person you will find it doesnt burn much if any oil at all.
Rebuilt, new oem shortblock, etc... these engines consume oil.

mine is completely overhauled and still burns it regardless, to top it off i have a mysterious leak somewhere...
Posted via RS Mobile

He lied time after time..., and it isn't the fact that the ECU shouldn't burn oil but the fact he SAID he didn't have one in and the fact that the vendor said it must be stock..., He lied plain and simple.

Ed can just print this whole thread out and report David/Evogarage to the Taxman for this so called private sale. David as an owner of Evogarage should know that any sales that is made at his "business location" should require an invoice and tax be collected. If he wants to make a private sale, he will need to conduct it outside of his business, meaning away from Evogarage.


Since David screw you (Ed) over, you might as well get back at him. Nothing better than an eye for an eye!

:facepalm:

Due to a lack of reading comprehension or selective reading, I have decided to post here again because I feel there is a need for me to clarify a few key points.
I never once said nor suggested that the ECU/Chip would cause valve seals and or valve guide problems. I’m not sure where people on here have gotten that idea from especially if you have read my previous post carefully and how it was worded.
This was a private sale and I could have just brushed him off and not do anything for him to help him with the issue with the motor. I am a very reasonable person and I felt that I should have helped this guy out in trying to determine the issue he was having with the motor that I sold to him.
What I wasn’t expecting was for him to be untruthful after all. When I discovered that he was in fact being untruthful, I lost all the trust, respect and credibility I had for him. I’m certain that if any of you were in my position, you would also agree that you would not likely be willing to do anything for this individual any more at this point.
A hypothetical example of this would be if you purchased a brand new car from the dealer and you then installed some sort of programmable ECU. Shortly after that (ECU-related or not) the engine is burning oil. Would you go back to the dealer for warranty WITH the aftermarket ECU in there or would you return it back with the stock ECU and THEN bring the car back and never notify the dealer of what was installed? Of course, without the programmable ECU there in the car when the dealer is working on the car, they can’t pin it on that being the cause of it and therefore, probably can’t void the vehicle warranty.
I honestly do not see why anyone would have left the aftermarket ECU inside. Why? Simply because an individual would obviously want the dealer to fix the vehicle, under warranty, hiding the fact there was one installed to begin with which MAY (yes, I said MAY) cause damage to the engine. I’m sure others would agree that this is a way to abuse the warranty system set up by dealers and shops in order to benefit oneself.
Keep in mind, we are not talking about a dealer-installed (therefore dealer warranted) chip or programmable ECU such as the BMW Dinan stage 1 or 2, etc. Those are definitely covered under warranty by the dealer so long as it was installed by the dealer. Another example would be installing a boost controller in a new BMW 335ci, increasing the boost, which blows up the motor in the end. Would you bring the car back to the dealer with the boost controller still in there? Or would you remove the boost controller from the car because you know yourself that it could be the cause for voiding any warranty work and therefore feel the need to cover it up and pretend it was never there? This is just an EXAMPLE and it is apples to oranges but the underlying theme is the same.
Also, for those of you who think that I automatically told Ed that that I would pretend I never sold him a motor and just keep it, here’s the story behind what lead up to that point.
The motor was returned to me partially disassembled (ie: no intake manifold, no cams/caps, no exhaust manifold, but head and short block). At this point in time, I did not find out yet that he had run a chipped ECU and Hondata on the motor. I sent the motor back out to Winnipeg for the machine shop to investigate for the oil consumption issue. During the time it was at the machine shop, I found out from another shop that he did in fact have a Hondata S300 on the car and that they had trouble starting the car at the time (hence how they discovered the S300 when they decided to look at the ECU). When I spoke to the machine shop about my new findings, the machine shop and I agreed that any ‘warranty’ would be void at this point.
Ed called me the next day and I asked him again if he was running the stock ECU on this motor. He said he was and I told him that I was informed that he was running an S300 at one point. I then informed him that because of this finding, the machine shop and I would be voiding any ‘warranty’ that may have been offered. He became upset and asked which shop told me. I eventually told him and he had nothing to say. He was not happy about this and unfortunately we argued on the phone about the matter and that’s when he said he wasn’t going to pay for the work currently being done on the motor by the machine shop (they disassembled to investigate the motor). At this point, I felt that he had no credibility anymore after I pretty much busted him for neglecting to inform me of the Hondata (keep in mind, that Ed tuned it himself and when asked what he did at first, he said that he leaned it out…I’m sure you real mechanics out there can figure out what might happen to the motor when that is done) The argument on the phone continued and when he said he thought it was BS and wasn’t going to pay, that’s when I told him that if he didn’t pay, he wouldn’t get the motor back, plain and simple. The arguing went on because he felt that I was being unreasonable. I told him that because of this, I couldn’t trust anything he told me anymore and if he continued to be this way towards me, I would do the same in return.

One key point that I also want to make clear about this situation is that I personally did not assemble the motor for Ed. He bought the motor as a short block and head and put it together himself. The short block and head were assembled by the machine shop in Winnipeg. In Ed’s issues with the motor consuming oil, not once did I work on the car myself other than to change the valve seals. Ed did all the diagnostic work himself other than the machine shop work, and I also had no part in that.


I was never informed by Ed that after THIS recent engine rebuild, there is an oil consumption problem. I decided to contact Ed last yesterday (March 15th) via phone and talked about it.
This 2nd rebuild should not have an oil consumption problem and therefore, this is a separate issue than the first one. That is, unless the machine shop I deal with in Winnipeg made an error on the 2nd rebuild. It’s still a possibility as I would also like to get to the bottom of this issue that Ed is having with his twice rebuilt motor.

This is what I offered to Ed:
-take the cylinder head off and send it to a local machine shop of HIS choice and have it checked out.
-IF there is any problem with the head that the machine shop in Winnipeg overlooked, then I have no problem paying for it out of my own pocket to get it fixed for Ed at the machine shop that is found that problem, locally.
-have the local machine shop show me exactly what they physically discover if the head is indeed faulty in any way which would cause the oil consumption.
-I will deal with the Winnipeg machine shop afterwards if it is in fact an error on their end and get them to pay me back.

-IF the head comes back and checks out fine. There will be other things Ed might need to look into on his part.
(I actually suggested to him to look at the fuel injectors and see if they are faulty since the very beginning. There is a possibility that they might have cracked or whatever and washed down the cylinder walls)

I have been working with this machine shop in Winnipeg for over 10 years without ANY problems. I take pride in my work and I have had no problem standing behind their work in the past. Ed told me over the phone that he suspects that the issue is still within the head. That is why I offered this ‘solution’ to him in order to rectify the situation. We will have to wait and see if Ed decides to bring it to a machine shop and then wait for the results.

I think this is fair for both parties involved in this issue.

-david@evogarage

^so what was the actual diagnosis when the motor was sent back to your Winnipeg machine shop?

were they actually able to find the problem, or just "fuck it, he's running aftermarket ecu so we are going to stop looking and deny warranty"?

and if that was the case, why was the engine rebuilt without authorization and a proper diagnosis and fix of the original problem?

i gotta Say
it takes alot for David to make that offer to Ed..

Regardless of the results, David has got my respect as a shop owner...

First off, props to Evo for actually telling Ed to take the cylinder head to an independent shop and letting them figure out what's wrong. Perhaps cooler heads will prevail on boths sides and things can get resolved.


However, I still take exception to you and the machine shop deciding to void the warranty on the engine simply because he had a modded ECU.

I work for BMW and their official policy is that in order to deny warranty on a modded car there has to be a direct link between the modification and the resulting damage/problem. And this has to be something that can be proven, not simply speculation.

Many BMW owners have aftermarket mods that are not from Dinan and were not purchased through BMW (in fact, most modded BMW's are done this way). And for the majority of these modded cars BMW still honors the warranty, even though it's modded. This is because technicians can't link the resulting engine problem to the modification.

Now people might think BMW is being nice about this, but that's not it. It's because legally they (and any dealer for that matter) would lose in court if they tried to deny a warranty and couldn't prove to the judge the link between the modification and the damage. It's the same reason dealers can't void your warranty because you get your oil changes done at an independent shop.

I should also clarify what I mean by "voiding warranty". Even at BMW we've had customers in who had to pay out of their own pocket for a repair due to an aftermarket modification. That same person comes in at a later date with a different problem, and this time BMW honors the warranty, again even though the car is modded. Why is this? Because they treat each problem as a separate claim. Even if your mod was found to be the cause of a problem, it doesn't mean your entire warranty is void - it only means that warranty on that specific component is void. And if a component is replaced and the mod that affected it is removed, then warranty continues on with that component as normal.


So I'm curious why Evo would void Ed's warranty, unless they had specific proof that Ed's use of a modded ECU directly resulted in the oil problem.

And as a note to Evo, are most of your customers regular people buying stock engines to put in their stock cars, or are they part of the tuning/modding crowd who like to fix up their cars? Cuz if I'm hearing you right, you think a modded engine should have no warranty which might make a lot of future customers think twice about getting an engine from you if they have to be worried about what they do to it or use it for.

Correct me if I'm wrong but EVO didn't sell the motor. David sold it. Private sale, cash only.

It sounds like any warranty provided in this case was based on goodwill. Nothing was in writing.

So comparing a BMW factory warranty to a private sale on a used motor is apples to oranges. Or even bananas to kiwi fruit.