Originally Posted by Iron Chef (Post 7342335)

This is my story of how I got scammed for 5250.

It all started when I was in the market for a 98spec ITR motor swap. I ended up going to Evo garage. I spoke with the owner David the owner. He said he had a line on a 01 USDM ITR motor swap that he was rebuilding and would be for sale when complete.

I asked what the history behind this motor. A customer of his had a 01 ITR that had problems with excessive oil consumption. The owner decided that he wanted to do a 98spec motor swap and he would take his old motor swap as trade. The nature of the rebuild was a re-ring with original usdm pistons, oem bearings and seal kit. When the motor came in I inspected it and noted that 1 exhaust valve was replaced with an aftermarket valve but other then that the motor looked mint.

He was asking 4200 for the motor swap in pieces, I would assemble the the motor. I offered 4000 and paid him for the motor cash on the spot and took it home that day.

Immediately after installation of the motor swap the motor was smoking on cold starts and immediately my bumper was covered with black soot. It was clearly evident because my car is white. I informed him of the situation right afterwards and I didn’t was to come to any conclusions because I was not done break in and there was the possibility of my exhaust being contaminated and it was clearing it self out. After 3000km of break in it was clearly evident this motor was consuming a lot of oil. It was consuming 1 litre every 800km.

I at this time I started to eliminate out side factors that could cause this such as rich air/fuel mixture causing oil dilution causing excessive consumption.
-My vehicle reaches operating temp in 3km
-As per my wideband O2 sensor , AFR’s where where they should be 14.5ish cruise 12.8ish WOT
-I replaced my cat with another unit to rule out contamination causing black soot on my bumper
-I ran a chipped p28 with stock itr basemap for 500km to eliminate faulty ecu with no change
-I ran a vented valve cover and eliminate pcv system causing too much crank pressure
-leak down was 4% in all cylinders


At 6000km I had eliminated all outside factors that could cause black soot and oil consumption and based on the symptoms such as smoking on cold start and smoking on decel I was convinced that the valve seals were at fault. I went back and discussed things with him and he had agreed to replace valve seals under warranty. When I picked up the car he had informed me that the machine shop had mixed up the exhaust valve seals with the intakes.


Afterwards the visible signs of of smoking were gone but my bumper was still going black and it was still consuming about 1L/1100km. I tried several different weights of oil

I had spoken to him after the valve seal replacement and he said he would talk to the machine shop. I got back to him a couple weeks later and he said that the machine shop said that Honda said that 1L/1000km is acceptable level of oil consumption. I will take issue that this statement. That specification is for a motor that is well with in its service limit when everything is all broken in and loose. This spec doesn’t apply to a motor that has just been rebuilt to oem specs. If done right this motor should be as good as an brand new motor and I don’t know of any brand new motor consuming 1L/1100km with under 10000km. and covering my back bumper with soot after 200km of driving. They were basically saying nothing is wrong.

I went to a track day and after that the level of soot build up on my bumper went down but consumption was about the same. After that I was doing routine maintence and a plug inspection and noted that cyl 1 had heavy build up of carbon. There was defiantly something wrong with this cylinder. I went in with a bore scope and noted that the top of piston 1 was visibly wet.

I went back to evo garage and told him the situation and that this is not acceptable. You could argue that excessive oil consumption could be normal for these engines but you can’t argue that for it to happen in 1 cylinder is. He spoke with the machines shop and we had agreed that I would pull the motor and send it back. The machine shop was in Winnipeg and he would cover the cost of the shipping which is 500 dollars.

I went ahead and pulled the motor and when I pulled the cylinder head I had noticed that the back side of the intake valve and ports were moist. Oil seems to making its way past the guides into the combustion chamber. Condition of the cylinders were good with no signs of scoring, glazing or anything of that nature.


When I dropped the motor off I had inspected the motor with david to show him my findings. And I would just leave it with him. This was in Dec 6 2010. I called him on Jan 4th for an update and he informed me that he was going to Japan for a month and he will call me when he gets back. That’s nice having 2 months of down time for my car.

So this is where it gets really good.

He calls me Feb 7th and informs me that he received information that I ran a chipped ecu and that’s what’s causing my oil consumption and he will not cover anything under warranty. He then informs me that the machine shop will re rebuild my motor at a discounted rate of 1000 + 500 shipping to bring it back from winnepeg. So at this point I’m a little wtf. I asked him if the machine shop had located where the consumption was coming from and he said that they didn’t. They also didn’t find anything wrong with the cylinders and everything measured up ok. If they could find anything wrong I sure as hell wasn’t gonna pay them 1500 to rebuild it again.

I was thinking this was a big miss understanding so I go down to the shop on the following Monday Feb 7th to try to figure something out. When I get there he was clearly not in the mood to talk and basically told me to fuck off and if I want my motor back its 1500 dollars and that the motor is already rebuilt and on its way back. At this point now I’m really wtf. So I later find out that while he went to Japan for a month he wasn’t in contact with the machine shop and they just went ahead and rebuilt the motor with out anyone’s authorization. You can’t just go do 1500 worth of work with out my consent and just expect me to pay. He going on to say that I’m fucked because I bought the motor with no receipt and he could easily say that he never sold me a motor and theres nothing I could do about it. At this point I’m pretty much dumb founded but with out the motor here theres nothing I can really do but wait til it comes in and deal with it then.

2 weeks later I call him and he informs me that the motor is here. I head to his shop and basically inform him that at this point there is no reason to prevent me from boot fucking him in the head and taking my motor back. Its at that point he wants to be reasonable and decides to take off $350. I decide to cut my losses and pay him 1250 and take my motor with no guarantee that anything is going to be fixed but aleast I’m not held at the mercy of him.

Originally Posted by IntegraleEVO (Post 7342717)

Here’s my side of the story.

First off, some background info;
- the current on going rate for a USED ITR swap is around $4,500.00 to $4,800.00
- the reason for using the machine shop in Winnipeg is because of my long and good relationship with them. Over 10 years we have been working together and never once have I had any problems. They have always made it a priority in taking care of my customers and myself.


Ed came to me around the end of May, 2010. He was in the market for a full ITR motor swap. Unfortunately at the time I was completely out of stock on the JDM ITR swaps.

I did however mention to him I had a freshly rebuilt ITR motor that had just came back from the machine shop. I told him in detail of what was done to this specific motor; top to bottom rebuild, new rings, new bearings, new gaskets, resurfaced cylinder head and valve job. At this present time, the engine was not yet assembled, I told him I was looking for $4,500.00 READY TO SWAP (ASSEMBLED). Ed was looking to spend less than that, and asked how much for just all the parts, he would then do the assembly himself. We agreed that $4,000.00 would be fair. All necessary parts would be given to him, assembled short block, cylinder head, clutch, flywheel, transmission and so forth. If he needed anything else, I told him he would be more than welcome to come back and I could supply him with additional parts/info/help.

(The motor was originally sold to me by a friend/customer who had purchased a JDM ITR swap from Evo Garage. Which is also the reason why I was not able to produce Ed with an invoice, because Evo Garage did NOT import the motor. It was a personal transaction. ED KNOWS THIS FACT AS WELL.)

(Typically with all Evo Garage ENGINE SWAP PACKAGES, I included on the invoice; type of engine, year, serial number and ecu number for my own records.)

I also told him it would be sold as is, however I did grant him a start up warranty, plus ONE month warranty on no excessive oil burning and knocking.

After agreeing to these terms, Ed decided to make the purchase.


A month had past, he came back complaining that oil was burning. I asked him if he had broken in the engine in a non-aggressive fashion, typical daily driving and if he was using the stock ECU. (It is critical to use a stock ECU during the break in period.) He told me that he was a mechanic and knew how to break in an engine and was indeed running the stock ECU.


Ed claimed that the motor was burning oil during cold starts; we agreed that the valve seals should be looked at. (Even though it was already past the ONE month warranty period.) I was still determined to help him out. I had him leave the car with me so I could take a look at the valve seals. Upon disassembly, I had found that the machine shop did misplace the new exhaust valve seals on the intake side. I covered the cost of the all necessary parts and labour for this to be resolved.


A few weeks after I was contacted by Ed, informing me that the oil burning issue was solved.


Around September, Ed came by the shop informing me that the oil was still burning oil. He did mention that the motor was strong, makes power and what not. For he had been taking it to the track and drag strip. He said he would keep a record of how much oil it’s burning and would get back to me on a later date.


Ed came back around the end of November. He said that he had taken his car on a road trip to Calgary and it burnt about 1L every 1,500km.

Still very much willing to help Ed out, I called the machine shop asking them if they could pull up the record of this job and see what might be causing this issue. The machine shop called me back informing me that they called ACURA TECHLINE themselves and had this to report. ITR MOTOR BURNS A LITTLE BIT OF OIL WHICH IS NORMAL. They then said what’s happening right now is border line acceptable, and they would not do anything even if the car was sold brand new at the dealership. I did not tell Ed this because I was still wanting to take care of him.

I talked to Ed and asked him again if he was running a stock ECU, he assured me that he was. I believed him, and would still like to take care of this. I always hate to have an unhappy customer. We agreed on sending the motor back to the machine shop, if it had checked out that something was indeed mis-performed on their end, I would cover the shipping and machine shop would pay for all parts and labour.

By the time Ed pulled the motor and got it to my shop, it was already December. I told him that he would have to wait a while because it was getting close to to the holidays, plus I would be away on vacation in January. So you probably won't see the motor till the end of January or early February. He agreed and left the motor with me.

Some time had past since the motor was sent out, I was informed by another shop that Ed has been using a HONDATA S300 programmable ECU in his car. Ed had brough his car to them for some exhaust work, and the shop had the hardest time trying to start his car. Ed's car had such a hard time starting, the shop decided to take a look into it, try and see what was going on for the guy, which lead to them witnessing the HONDATA S300 unit in place of the stock, OEM ECU.


Fast forward, February 2, 2011. This is the day I got back from my vacation, I contacted the machine shop to get an update of what was happening. They found the motor was burning oil in all 4 cylinders, however there seemed to be alot more being burnt from cylinder 1. They told me they dis-assembed the motor and found out the rings on # 1 cylinder had signs of heat score. I informed them of my new found information regarding the programmable ECU, we both agreed that warranty should be void as this is the customer's fault. Machine shop rebuilt the motor once again putting in wiseco rings, new bearings, new seals, re-polished the crank and refinished the cylinder head. The motor was even re-assambled this time to eliminate any further issues. Because of my relationship with the machine shop, they decided to help both Ed and I out as good will, the total bill with part and labour was discounted to $1,000.00.


I called Ed and asked him once again if he was using a stock ECU during break-in and he assured me that he was. I told him that I found out he was using a HONDATA programmable ECU. He then admitted to it and told me that he even reduced FUEL on all 4 cylinders to see if it would reduce oil consumption?!?! In all my years of tuning, I have never heard of anyone reducing fuel to lower oil consumption. I believe the ECU was put in to make more power. Ed felt that there was something wrong with the stock ECU, so his solution was to replace it with a HONDATA UNIT, not running a stock map. At this point I was pretty fed-up with Ed who had been lying to me this whole time. I felt that he was trying to claim for a new motor or money back as he had screwed up on the tuning this one himself. Before ending the conversion, I told him he needs to bring $1,000.00 for the machine shop and also $250.00 each way for shipping. He told me he would have to think about it. I receieved a call from Ed later that night asking if I would take the motor back and to give him $3,000.00, I told him sorry, no.


Ed dropped by the next day and asked if he could talk to the machine shop. I honestly did not see the point and I told him that if I had known he was lying to me, I would not have sent the motor out in the first place. Anyways, I granted his requested and got himin touch with the machine shop. He talked to the machine shop on the phone himself, and then told me that the machine shop told him that they did NOT find any problems. I asked him to hand me the phone, immediately hear a yelling over the phone "WE DID NOT SAY THAT" I asked Ed, why are you lying to me again?! Ed got mad and threaten me, he told me to call him when the motor comes back and then left the shop.


Couple weeks after, the motor is now back from the machine shop. Ed shows up with 2 of his friends, their goal was to try and pick up the motor without paying. A fight almost broke out at the shop and his friend threatened me saying - "It won't be nice for business if there are trouble while you are working, etc., etc.") After some time of quarrel, his friend asked and listened to my side of the story. After listening, he said "I am sorry, and that you are probably right, but I am Ed's friend and Ed is looking for some form of discount, lets just get it over with."

I don't see any other shops or manufacturers granting warranty on a product that has been tampered with. In this case, a motor using a programmable ECU with a faulty tune.

So end of the day I had to lose out some money for Ed to leave with his motor and friends.

This will be my one and only post regarding this matter.

-david@evogarage

Originally Posted by 68style (Post 7342427)

Somewhat related, but holy fuck you guys pay that much for stock Honda motors that aren't even assembled?!?! Makes me glad I drive a MR2 and Mustang... lol

Sucks to hear man....... but he got you by the short and curlies here..... no matter what you say he can say that you effed it up with your own install and tuning and track days and whatever else. You've got no legal leg to stand on :(