Occupy Vancouver - What do YOU Think?

[Ronin]

Originally Posted by Everymans

>38. Legalize prostitution.
The problem I have with this is again, it promotes prostitution. Young fluzeys will think "Hey, hookin is easy! I should get into that career path." I'm all for hostels, but prostitution is definitely a criminal offense in my book.

I'll just assume you mean brothels...since there's nothing illegal about hostels.

The 9/11 thing just makes them look like wackos. Seriously, that happened ten years ago and not even in Canada.

[Bonjour43MA]

10% of these protestors are legit and acutally have something to protest about, the rest of them are a bunch of lazy ass, drug-using, pot-smoking, blame-everyone-else-for-my-own-problems, want-money-for-nothing losers.

Get the fuck out of my city and take your pot-filled tents to some back alley, where no one gives a fuck about why you can't pay back your 100k line of credit, or why you can't get a 6-figure job with your fine arts degree. The rest of us have to go to work and earn our money, pay taxes, and put food on the table without blaming other people and bitching about why we don't have more money.

That's life, deal with it.

[gars]

Laurel O’Gorman is one of the faces of Occupy Toronto. She believes the capitalist system has robbed her of her future. At 28, she’s studying for a master’s degree in sociology at Laurentian University in Sudbury. She’s also the single mother of two children. “I’m here because I don’t know what kind of job I could possibly find that would allow me to pay rent, take care of these two children and pay back $600 each month in loans,” she said.

Ms. O’Gorman is in a fix. But I can’t help wondering whether she, and not the greedy Wall Street bankers, is the author of her own misfortune. Just what kind of jobs did she imagine are on offer for freshly minted sociology graduates? Did she bother to ask? Did it occur to her that it might be a good idea to figure out how to support her children before she had them?

She’s typical in her bitter disappointment. Here’s Boston resident Sarvenaz Asasy, 33, who has a master’s degree in international human rights, along with $60,000 in student loans. She dreamed of doing work to help the poor get food and education. But now she can’t find a job in her field. She blames the government. “They’re cutting all the grants, and they’re bailing out the banks. I don’t get it.”

Then there’s John, who’s pursuing a degree in environmental law. He wants to work at a non-profit. After he graduated from university, he struggled to find work. “I had to go a full year between college and law school without a job. I lived at home with my parents to make ends meet.” He thinks a law degree will help, but these days, I’m not so sure.

These people make up the Occupier generation. They aspire to join the virtueocracy – the class of people who expect to find self-fulfillment (and a comfortable living) in non-profit or government work, by saving the planet, rescuing the poor and regulating the rest of us. They are what the social critic Christopher Lasch called the “new class” of “therapeutic cops in the new bureaucracy.”

The trouble is, this social model no longer works. As blogger Kenneth Anderson writes, “The machine by which universities train young people to become minor regulators and then delivered them into white-collar positions on the basis of credentials in history, political science, literature, ethnic and women’s studies – with or without the benefit of law school – has broken down. The supply is uninterrupted, but the demand has dried up.”

It’s not the greedy Wall Street bankers who destroyed these people’s hopes. It’s the virtueocracy itself. It’s the people who constructed a benefit-heavy entitlement system whose costs can no longer be sustained. It’s the politicians and union leaders who made reckless pension promises that are now bankrupting cities and states. It’s the socially progressive policy-makers in the U.S. who declared that everyone, even those with no visible means of support, should be able to own a home with no money down, courtesy of their government. In Canada, it’s the social progressives who assure us we can keep on consuming all the health care we want, even as the costs squeeze out other public goods.

The Occupiers are right when they say our system of wealth redistribution is broken. But they’re wrong about what broke it. The richest 1 per cent are not exactly starving out the working poor. (In the U.S., half all income sent to Washington is redistributed to the elderly, sick and disabled, or to those who serve them, and nearly half the country lives in a household that’s getting some sort of government benefit.) The problem is, our system redistributes the wealth from young to old, and from middle-class workers in the private sector to inefficient and expensive unions in the public sector.

Among the biggest beneficiaries of this redistribution is the higher-education industry. In Canada, we subsidize it directly. In the U.S., it’s subsidized by a vast system of student loans, which have allowed colleges to jack up tuition to sky-high levels. U.S. student debt has hit the trillion-dollar mark. Both systems crank out too many sociologists and too few mechanical engineers. These days, even law-school graduates are having trouble finding work. That’s because the supply has increased far faster than the demand.

The voices of Occupy Wall Street, argues Mr. Anderson and others, are the voices of the downwardly mobile who are acutely aware of their threatened social status and need someone to blame. These are people who weren’t interested in just any white-collar work. They wanted to do transformational, world-saving work – which would presumably be underwritten by taxing the rich. They now face the worst job market in a generation. But their predicament is at least in part of their own making. And none of the solutions they propose will address their problem.

Ms. O’Gorman, the graduate student in sociology, didn’t bring her kids to the Occupy demonstration in Toronto because she was worried about security. Still, she hoped they would absorb the message. “I’m trying to teach them equity and critical thinking from a young age,” she said. If she’d only applied a bit more critical thinking to herself, she might be able to pay the rent.

Occupiers are blaming the wrong people - The Globe and Mail

[GrapeDrink]

“I’m here because I don’t know what kind of job I could possibly find that would allow me to pay rent, take care of these two children and pay back $600 each month in loans,”

exactly, maybe she should have thought about that before having 2 kids . I know I just sound like a hater in this thread and its not really even really related to occupy Vancouver but I hate these people that go off and have a bunch of kids and then can't understand why they can't make ends meet. Having children is a big financial commitment and she goes off and busts off 2 lol .. and its society's fault she can't support herself

[Nlkko]

2 kids. Hahaha. That reminds me of dirt poor Asian families with bunches of kids. The only difference is they don't set up tents and asking government for handouts. They take on 2nd, 3rd, 4th jobs to make end meets.

Poor life choice, she should be grateful she's not out on the dumpster scavenging for empty bottles while her 2 kids are being put up for adoption by child services.

Can't save the children in fucking Africa if you cant even save yourself. What a fucking world of entitlement we're living in.

[ToneCapone]

So the rich get richer and the poor are getting poorer. While this may be the case its not helping the situation to have so many people out there lacking responsibility. Responsibility in a sense of having kids when you are not stable enough to have a family (to me that's selfishness). Also getting those big ass loans when you cant pay them back. Nobody needs a 10g credit card but people get it anyways, spend all the money, default, and blame the rich folks - I learned the hard way but had only myself to blame for it.

Here is an idea one of my co-workers came up with which I thought was really good; Change (only for large enough businesses) full time hours from 5 days a week to 4 days - but still pay people for working 5. Yes the big dogs aren't going to like it but just think... what do people do on their days off? Generally - go out and spend money! That just may be what this economy needs; grab a little from the rich and feed the poor. I am not an economics expert and I don't even fully know what the details of this protest are so please clarify or feel free to debate this.

[iEatClams]

Originally Posted by cressydrift

Sort of related, check out Occupy Oakland,
RAW VIDEO: Chopper footage of 100,000+ Occupy Oakland Takes back Highway - YouTube

This is how it should be done, with many respectable people with legitimate concerns. Many of these people have jobs, took vacation days to go to these protests and consist of many middle-income earners.

These people are protesting in rallys, similar to Civil rights movements ala Martin Luther King, Vietnam war, etc not living in tent cities and smoking up all day/night like they do in Vancouver.

[dbaz]

My cousin just came over and tried to argue about this. Hes a little weird in the head and goes down to the see his friends at the protest daily. Basically he believes the lady who died, died because the police planted bad drugs. Yet he admitted to me that roughly 90% of the people there are known drug users/addicts(heroin,meth ect) and that he said the organizers brought them to the area to make a point(wtf?). I asked how a bunch of people doing drugs in a tent city is making a positive point and let him know it actually makes the cause look worse.
He proceeded to ramble on how I am part of the 99% and I should go down to protest. Until I told him I'd rather work, go to school and go through my struggles then make an ass out of myself by quitting a job and going to protest about how there are no jobs.

[iEatClams]

Originally Posted by E-ternal-3

So the rich get richer and the poor are getting poorer. While this may be the case its not helping the situation to have so many people out there lacking responsibility. Responsibility in a sense of having kids when you are not stable enough to have a family (to me that's selfishness). Also getting those big ass loans when you cant pay them back. Nobody needs a 10g credit card but people get it anyways, spend all the money, default, and blame the rich folks - I learned the hard way but had only myself to blame for it.

Here is an idea one of my co-workers came up with which I thought was really good; Change (only for large enough businesses) full time hours from 5 days a week to 4 days - but still pay people for working 5. Yes the big dogs aren't going to like it but just think... what do people do on their days off? Generally - go out and spend money! That just may be what this economy needs; grab a little from the rich and feed the poor. I am not an economics expert and I don't even fully know what the details of this protest are so please clarify or feel free to debate this.

Idea won't fly.
Why should these "large enough businesses" be forced into a competitive disadvantage that increases their labour costs and reduce their productivity? What do you consider large enough?

I do agree with the idea of a demand driven economy (instead of a supply side trickle down economy), where if you pay your employees a better wage they will have funds to buy goods that they demand (better clothing, technology etc), and businesses will innovate and fill the supply for the demand for these goods.

[Death2Theft]

This will come down to civil rights, just to give you an idea of how fucked up things are in the states. With the Jesse Ventura case where he got groped by the TSA and they voilated his fourth amendment.
The Fourth Amendment (Amendment IV) to the United States Constitution is the part of the Bill of Rights which guards against unreasonable searches and seizures, along with requiring any warrant to be judicially sanctioned and supported by probable cause.

So he sues them and takes them to court, they then dismiss his case. Saying that what the TSA is allowed to do or not allowed to do is a national security secret. Basically that means they can change the laws to whatever they like and no one will know about it.
So if a former senator can't get his day in court... can you imagine how much more f'd up sh!t is going on behind the scenes?

If any politician really wanted to crack down and provide jobs to the citizens/middle class, all they would have to do is jack up import duty from other countries by 100% or whatever to make it competitive for the citizens to produce goods. But will that happen? Not as long as congress is bought out by big multinationals.

[Ronin]

Originally Posted by E-ternal-3

Here is an idea one of my co-workers came up with which I thought was really good; Change (only for large enough businesses) full time hours from 5 days a week to 4 days - but still pay people for working 5. Yes the big dogs aren't going to like it but just think... what do people do on their days off? Generally - go out and spend money! That just may be what this economy needs; grab a little from the rich and feed the poor. I am not an economics expert and I don't even fully know what the details of this protest are so please clarify or feel free to debate this.

...because reducing the world's productivity by 20% seems like it would be a good idea?

[Gridlock]

Vancouver is awesome at fucking it up. Another city has a legitimate point? Vancouver fucks it up. Another city has a rally? Vancouver gets heroin users.

Occupy Vancouver(can't comment on elsewhere) are looking for a fight. It's obvious. That's why they are in tents! Sooner or later, someone is going to come in and try to clean it out, and they can be arrested in time to make it on the 6 o'clock news.

They have people cleaning the site, doing first aid and their own security. Why? Because when...WHEN the police come in and crack their skulls, they want to be able to cry foul.

It didn't surprise me that Occ.Van. turned out as it did. It started in New York, on wall street. Immediatly, I agree with why they are there. Maybe not in the sense that I'm sending donations or standing with them, but you immediatly get it.

"These fucking banks get massive back room bailouts and the rest of the country suffers because of them"

Boom! There's your mission statement. Most people in the states are going to at least understand why you are there.

Come to Vancouver...we want free weed! After 5 weeks, they release a manifesto that looks like it was cooked up by Cheech and Chong.

Fuck! I'm disappointed.

[CorneringArtist]

Originally Posted by dbaz

My cousin just came over and tried to argue about this. Hes a little weird in the head and goes down to the see his friends at the protest daily. Basically he believes the lady who died, died because the police planted bad drugs. Yet he admitted to me that roughly 90% of the people there are known drug users/addicts(heroin,meth ect) and that he said the organizers brought them to the area to make a point(wtf?). I asked how a bunch of people doing drugs in a tent city is making a positive point and let him know it actually makes the cause look worse.
He proceeded to ramble on how I am part of the 99% and I should go down to protest. Until I told him I'd rather work, go to school and go through my struggles then make an ass out of myself by quitting a job and going to protest about how there are no jobs.

No offense, but your cousin is the stupidest fuck I have ever had the displeasure of reading about. Does he wear a tinfoil hat and thinks that 9/11 was an inside job, and that the government is trying to control minds with fluoride in the water supply?

[ToneCapone]

Originally Posted by azndude69

Idea won't fly.
Why should these "large enough businesses" be forced into a competitive disadvantage that increases their labour costs and reduce their productivity? What do you consider large enough?

I do agree with the idea of a demand driven economy (instead of a supply side trickle down economy), where if you pay your employees a better wage they will have funds to buy goods that they demand (better clothing, technology etc), and businesses will innovate and fill the supply for the demand for these goods.

Good points.
I just realized if this change is made then it has to be for everyone rather than the just the big companies. It would be extremely unfair if people only working for the big dogs would get this benefit.

Why this should happen? If its beneficial you can find any reason, just like the ridiculous gas taxes are forced upon us.

It looks like parts of Europe (France) already adopted the 35 Hour work week idea. I think the idea behind it is good but it isn't working very well for a number of reasons. I think if we learn from their mistakes we could totally make it work. Paying your employees a better wage seems just as difficult to get done - but hey, minimum wage is increasing so steps are definitely being taken.

Ronin, it sounds dumb when you put it that way but the idea behind it is that people will be a) working OT after 35 hours = getting paid more and b) spending money on their days off

[Splmash]

My friend from out of town asked me why people are occupying an art gallery. He thinks it's super ironic that an art gallery, which is pretty far left from "Wall Street," is being occupied. His last comment was "Vancouver always gets it wrong."

I agreed.

[Culverin]

Originally Posted by Gridlock

They have people cleaning the site, doing first aid and their own security. Why? Because when...WHEN the police come in and crack their skulls, they want to be able to cry foul.

Sounds like having their own first aid and self policing IS doing it right.
It gives "the man" one less legitimate reason to come and in mess things up.

[dbaz]

Originally Posted by CorneringArtist

No offense, but your cousin is the stupidest fuck I have ever had the displeasure of reading about. Does he wear a tinfoil hat and thinks that 9/11 was an inside job, and that the government is trying to control minds with fluoride in the water supply?

No offense taken, Im usually face palming while talking to him. But unfortunately as stupid as he is, thats the theory of those down at the art gallery. Some are even crazier than him.

[iEatClams]

Originally Posted by E-ternal-3

Good points.
I just realized if this change is made then it has to be for everyone rather than the just the big companies. It would be extremely unfair if people only working for the big dogs would get this benefit.

Why this should happen? If its beneficial you can find any reason, just like the ridiculous gas taxes are forced upon us.

It looks like parts of Europe (France) already adopted the 35 Hour work week idea. I think the idea behind it is good but it isn't working very well for a number of reasons. I think if we learn from their mistakes we could totally make it work. Paying your employees a better wage seems just as difficult to get done - but hey, minimum wage is increasing so steps are definitely being taken.

Ronin, it sounds dumb when you put it that way but the idea behind it is that people will be a) working OT after 35 hours = getting paid more and b) spending money on their days off

It can, and also cannot work, there's many factors at play. One can look at one example that doesnt work, ie. Greece, where many get automatic crazy pensions and crazy benefits and relatively no tax gets collected to pay for these crazy out-of-line benefits. Also a large % of the workforce is working for the state/government. This is an example where it wont work.

Examples of where it does work is countries like Germany and Scandanavian countries, where they have a very short work week and great social benefits. But they also have great spending on Apprenticeship programs and technical education. They invest heavily in technical skills like engineering, mathematics, and physical sciences, unlike Canada where you lots of people having useless Fine Arts degrees.

[Drow]

Vancouver is......

[Gridlock]

Originally Posted by Culverin

Sounds like having their own first aid and self policing IS doing it right.
It gives "the man" one less legitimate reason to come and in mess things up.

Yeah totes-other than 2 od's in 24 hours and 1 death.

And you hear them on the news saying, instead of bitching they don't have services, put in porta potties and power! Oh, and the other one I heard about was having an Insite satellite location. They can barely keep the bricks and mortar location running, and now you want a road show?

Great, the city you are protesting against should now provide services for you?

Tell you what-we'll consider it. Send us your permit application and we'll tal...oh fuck, there's the fucking problem.

[Nlkko]

I heard on the radio Gregor issued an eviction notice for them.

[Hondaracer]

Riot V.2.0
Posted via RS Mobile

[Mr.HappySilp]

LOL I say let them stay as long as they want let the cold weather kill them. Cut all power source, heats, running water, washroom off. Let them die on their own.

I don't think very many working people cares what they are doing. I rather relax on my day off than to go support them.

Is like them being lazy ass doing nothing all day and wants some free money. Yea right! I rather see my tax money goes towards the bike lane then givens to these dumb ass. Too poor to raise two kids and go to school for a master degree? Get a real fucking job! Can't support your kids? Give them up to child care.

Everyone have a choice and you can't blame anyone for making poor choices. Sometimes I wish our gov would grow a backbone like what China does. Pretty much you will be taken away within a sec if you want to protest in major cities.

EDIT: I have a friend who works 7 days a week and gets off work around 9pm everyday while I only work 40horus a week. She makes way way more than I do so does it make it fair that I should go and complain to the gov and she should give me part of her earnings becasue she works harder than me?

[Meowjin]

^for a person that comes from such a poor family and works menial jobs you sure do hate people who actually want to see some justice to the bankers that destroyed the world economy out of their own greed.

You are upset at people for the wrong reasons.

Also you tend to say alot of ignorant shit about "free money" and throw out some herp derp stereotype and what "poor" people want.

People have the right to protest. This whole idea of "get a job" is getting out of hand. We live in such an expensive city. I work 2 jobs just to stay afloat, and I go to school full time. I don't take out government loans (at least not yet) and I invest heavily in my RRSP's (my work matches my contributions). I grew up extremely poor, and I can see how a capitilist system is used to oppress the rights of the poor. These people have the right ideas. Too bad they are shitheads high on drugs, because too many of us are working hard on not getting evicted from our homes or im sure there would be more soliderity for this movement.

I'm a second generation Canadian living the life of a first generation Canadian. Our parents had an easier time. I've been on both sides of the chains and when the odds stack against you really have to have a high psychological limit or else you will just collapse and give up.

The media is insane. Greece is getting blamed for things that have no bearings on them. They have corrupt politicians but they want you to focus on the fact that the greeks are "lazy" and they never work.

Obviously the media is going to target the people that put them in threat of costing them $$$.

Newspapers and media are a dying with the internet and the only people that really watch tv are older conservative people who think the internet is a haven of pedophiles.

Vancouver has it's own issues right now. We have alot of foreign money with no accountability behind it being pumped into the real estate market. Noone is asking who these people are, where there money comes from or who they are. We always hear these sample of 1 cases of the successful vancouverite who sacrifices his life for wealth and then sacrifices his wealth for health. Not a fun life to live.

to quote the dalai lama

We feel money and power can bring happiness and solve problems, but they are not definite causes of those desired states. If that were so, it would follow that those who have wealth would necessarily have happiness, and those who do not have wealth would always experience suffering. Money and power facilitate, but it is clear that they are not the primary causes of, happiness and solving our problems. It is justified for us to make material and financial development for building our nation and providing shelter, etc. for ourselves; we need to do that. But we also need to seek inner development. As we can see, there are many people who have wealth and power who remain unhappy, due to which their health declines, and they are always taking medicines. On the other hand, we find people who live like beggars but who always remain peaceful and happy.
Therefore, in our daily life a certain way of thinking makes us happy, and a certain way of thinking makes us unhappy. In other words, there are certain states of mind which bring us problems, and they can be removed; we need to make an effort in that direction. Likewise, there are certain states of mind that bring us peace and happiness, and we need to cultivate and enhance them.

Anyways im just rambling now.

TLDR; RIGHT IDEA DUMB PROTESTORS

[Tapioca]

Originally Posted by MajinHurricane

^for a person that comes from such a poor family and works menial jobs you sure do hate people who actually want to see some justice to the bankers that destroyed the world economy out of their own greed.

A lot of people in the United States have a right to be pissed off. However, this is Canada where people, relatively speaking, have been sheltered from the most acute impacts.

People have the right to protest. This whole idea of "get a job" is getting out of hand. We live in such an expensive city. I work 2 jobs just to stay afloat, and I go to school full time. I don't take out government loans (at least not yet) and I invest heavily in my RRSP's (my work matches my contributions). I grew up extremely poor, and I can see how a capitilist system is used to oppress the rights of the poor. These people have the right ideas. Too bad they are shitheads high on drugs, because too many of us are working hard on not getting evicted from our homes or im sure there would be more soliderity for this movement.

Did you grow up on the streets wondering where your next meal was going to come from? If not, then I have to disagree respectfully that you grew up "extremely poor." Even if you had domestic issues, you still had a home to come to at the end of the day and enough food in your belly to learn how to read, write, and do arithmetic.

I'm a second generation Canadian living the life of a first generation Canadian. Our parents had an easier time. I've been on both sides of the chains and when the odds stack against you really have to have a high psychological limit or else you will just collapse and give up.

I bet if anyone takes a cross-section of the protesters, the vast majority are white and the off-spring of the middle class. These kids, somewhere down the line, screwed up and now are blaming the system. With all due respect, you have no idea what it's like to grow up being told to believe that you have no barriers when in reality, there are barriers based on your background (and bear in mind, I am as "white" as they come). Look at the top CEOs and politicians in this country - the vast majority are white. That's why I have no sympathy for Vancouver's protesters - they should stop pretending to advocate for the oppressed, the so-called 99%, when they in fact should have done their part, played their role in society, and called it a life.

Vancouver has it's own issues right now. We have alot of foreign money with no accountability behind it being pumped into the real estate market. Noone is asking who these people are, where there money comes from or who they are. We always hear these sample of 1 cases of the successful vancouverite who sacrifices his life for wealth and then sacrifices his wealth for health. Not a fun life to live.

This "problem" has a relatively simple solution: start up a civic political party that has the balls to stand up to the developers that run this city and make changes to the tax code and enact restrictions on foreign ownership. I'm sure this would be a cause that many could get behind, but you know what? Not even COPE, the most progressive civic political party in Canada, is advocating for this (at least not publicly.)