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Old 05-17-2012, 01:22 AM   #76
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So I think we need to clear up a couple points:
...
got it. in retrospect that was a dumb comment for me to make and i apologize for it.

i just wanted to say - this thread DID get me thinking more about this issue and i've been learning lots from mindbomber and godwin's debate, so i can have a more informed opinion.
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Old 05-17-2012, 01:24 AM   #77
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One question I would like to pose in regards to justice system: I believe that restorative justice is rooted in the First Nation culture. It is often presented as a possible model that would satisfy some of your concerns. Why different First Nation bands cannot seem to join together and create a centralized model that adheres to the same standards, so that it can be easier for the public at large to understand and hopefully accept? (besides the obvious politics) When I looked it up, it seems that different First Nations bands are do their own things at different paces. I know there are a lot of pride and uniqueness involved, however in the big picture, I think getting everyone on board and have confidence quickly should be the utmost concern.

I know of several pastors who go out to engage the First Nations community in East Van. I understand the reluctance on the First Nation's part to engage them due to the Residential School history. However I also notice as a community, the First Nations doesn't seem to reach out to the booming immigrant population. Are there any particular reason of this disengagement? That is, why they don't go out tell their story, actively engage and hopefully to extinguish the said bad stereotypes? Knowing how insular and disoriented a lot of new immigrants are, I think it might be a good idea to partner with groups like SUCCESS etc to spread the message.

There is no need for apologies. I think it is a very important and often neglected topic here, especially on a message board that is based in Vancouver and such young demographic. I think if you want the changes you want, it is probably good to start with this message board (at least locally) and I think it is important to engage, talk about things to create understanding; instead of just sweeping things under the rug.

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In my opinion, the prison system is torn between two purposes and achieves little as a result. On one side, the prison system is designed to punish offenders through exerting misery; on the other side, the prison system attempts to reform offenders and steer them on a new path. Offenders actively engaged in a criminal career accept and expect the intermittent misery of prison, and thus it is ineffective against dissuading them from committing crimes upon release. An approach purely designed to reform offenders by giving them the desire to not offend again would be more effective. A successful reform progress would work to identify what specifically motivated the offender to commit crime, and redirect the motivation towards something more productive. For example, if the offender was convicted of petty crimes committed to fuel a drug/alcohol addiction then outreach programs post-release to help the person maintain sobriety would be beneficial. I choose the petty crimes to fuel a drug/alcohol addictions example, because that's why many First Nations people are incarcerated. Almost every First Nations community is actively engaged in combating drug and alcohol addiction, since it is recognized as the most pervasive cause of the problems. Many reserves are dry and have very active community outreach programs to combat addiction and break the cycle that has been passed down through generations now, lowering addiction rates will lower crime rates.

As a society, I would like the entire prison system to shift it's focus towards reformation over punishment. What I would like society to do specifically in regards to the First Nations community, would be to drop the racist stereotypes that all natives are untrustworthy, alcoholics, or welfare dependents and to judge an individual based on their actions alone. Those attitudes do nothing but hurt a clean, hard working, First Nations person.




I set the statistics aside only after recognizing the unfortunate state the First Nations community currently finds itself in, I do not dispute them. I set the accurate statistics aside to address the fact you (or it appeared to me as if you intended to) chose to defend the racist and frankly ridiculous post made by platinum300.



Refer to above. You appeared to be offering support for the statements made by platinum300 in your initial post. If you were not, you have my sincere apologies.

Last edited by godwin; 05-17-2012 at 01:31 AM.
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Old 05-17-2012, 08:18 AM   #78
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IMO the second you decide taking drugs might be a good idea, you are immediately responsible for any actions you take thereafter, Drug induced or not.

Cocaine fueled shooting rampage? your fault.

Paranoid murder spree brought on by brain damage from crystal meth? still your fucking fault.

these people need to die.
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Old 05-17-2012, 12:07 PM   #79
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There's more to it than that. A lot of people don't just start doing hard drugs "for fun."
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Old 05-17-2012, 12:18 PM   #80
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Fuck ettt, he already got caught! Just waiting for his buddy to be found soon too.
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Old 05-17-2012, 12:34 PM   #81
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There's more to it than that. A lot of people don't just start doing hard drugs "for fun."
like when people go to the bar for quick drink which turns into a bender before they drive home.

they consciously decide to take a stimulant which may alter your decision making skills.

fun doesn't absolve you of responsibility.

yes, i'm no fun at parties. I've seen too many people/friends destroyed my substance abuse.
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Old 05-17-2012, 01:13 PM   #82
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Old 05-17-2012, 01:53 PM   #83
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One question I would like to pose in regards to justice system: I believe that restorative justice is rooted in the First Nation culture. It is often presented as a possible model that would satisfy some of your concerns. Why different First Nation bands cannot seem to join together and create a centralized model that adheres to the same standards, so that it can be easier for the public at large to understand and hopefully accept? (besides the obvious politics) When I looked it up, it seems that different First Nations bands are do their own things at different paces. I know there are a lot of pride and uniqueness involved, however in the big picture, I think getting everyone on board and have confidence quickly should be the utmost concern.
Enacting a standardized system of restorative justice is a worthwhile, but exceedingly difficult proposal. For such a system to be effective, a balance would need to be achieved between the traditional values of individual First Nation cultures and the contemporary European judicial system. The Maori people of New Zealand have established such an approach, which I believe is considered moderately successful. The Maori system allows the community to practice traditional justice through making recommendations on appropriate sentences to the contemporary judicial system, which takes those recommendations into account and delivers sentences accordingly. I believe the system could easily be adapted to Canada by allowing individual bands to make recommendations to the judicial system on sentencing that would look to include traditional approaches to healing. Putting in place such a system would encourage all bands to begin practicing traditional of justice more actively, while not necessarily encountering the obstacle of attempting to blend highly differing views, as one might expect would occur in a highly standardized model.

Why has such a system not already been put into place?
I cannot give an exacting answer, but I can give my opinion. It's difficult to come to an agreed upon approach and set it as a priority, because of the very immediate problems that occupy some band leaders. It's even more difficult to have the government agree to establishing what could be considered a radical new approach, especially with the current majority governments views on criminal justice.

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I know of several pastors who go out to engage the First Nations community in East Van. I understand the reluctance on the First Nation's part to engage them due to the Residential School history. However I also notice as a community, the First Nations doesn't seem to reach out to the booming immigrant population. Are there any particular reason of this disengagement? That is, why they don't go out tell their story, actively engage and hopefully to extinguish the said bad stereotypes? Knowing how insular and disoriented a lot of new immigrants are, I think it might be a good idea to partner with groups like SUCCESS etc to spread the message.

There is no need for apologies. I think it is a very important and often neglected topic here, especially on a message board that is based in Vancouver and such young demographic. I think if you want the changes you want, it is probably good to start with this message board (at least locally) and I think it is important to engage, talk about things to create understanding; instead of just sweeping things under the rug.
I intend to respond this portion of your post as well, but I'm off to class now so I'll need to do so a bit later.
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Old 05-17-2012, 06:45 PM   #84
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I know someone who works in the Ministry of Justice and she tells me that a lot of the Natives comment on how they think Restorative Justice is a wank.


Without commenting on Native cultural issues, I can assure you that if a non-Native commits an offense on sovereign land they won't receive the "Restorative Justice" treatment (happened to a relative of a friend of mine) so I don't see why Restorative Justice is the go-to for courts when a Native commits a crime on non-sovereign land.

It sends a message that there is a two-tiered justice system in Canada. One for Natives that allows them impunity if they demonstrate "real regret", and one for the rest of us.


Before Dr. Who jumps on me for being a "racist", I'm not attacking anyone's ethnicity or culture, but instead offering my opinion on how the justice system treats some offenders. I'm not racist, but I believe equality should apply to us all
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Old 05-17-2012, 07:01 PM   #85
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i understand it is unfair and simple minded to judge a group of people by an individual's actions.

but just out of curiosity, where do you draw the line?

if 100 aliens came to earth tomorrow, and they ALL started littering, is it okay to say... " those damn aliens, always littering "

if 100 aliens came to earth tomorrow, and all but one started littering, is it then rude and simple-minded to say " those damn aliens, always littering ", and you'd have to say " wow those "dudes" are always littering "
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Old 05-17-2012, 07:10 PM   #86
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I know someone who works in the Ministry of Justice and she tells me that a lot of the Natives comment on how they think Restorative Justice is a wank.


Without commenting on Native cultural issues, I can assure you that if a non-Native commits an offense on sovereign land they won't receive the "Restorative Justice" treatment (happened to a relative of a friend of mine) so I don't see why Restorative Justice is the go-to for courts when a Native commits a crime on non-sovereign land.

It sends a message that there is a two-tiered justice system in Canada. One for Natives that allows them impunity if they demonstrate "real regret", and one for the rest of us.


Before Dr. Who jumps on me for being a "racist", I'm not attacking anyone's ethnicity or culture, but instead offering my opinion on how the justice system treats some offenders. I'm not racist, but I believe equality should apply to us all
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i understand it is unfair and simple minded to judge a group of people by an individual's actions.

but just out of curiosity, where do you draw the line?

if 100 aliens came to earth tomorrow, and they ALL started littering, is it okay to say... " those damn aliens, always littering "

if 100 aliens came to earth tomorrow, and all but one started littering, is it then rude and simple-minded to say " those damn aliens, always littering ", and you'd have to say " wow those "dudes" are always littering "
some food for thought - not really related to this but you can draw a similar comparison:

say a city is hiring firefighters. say there are 2 resumes on the table of the hiring manager. one guy is white, the other is black. because of political pressure for racial equality, the manager decides to hire the black man simply because of his skin color, though his resume and physical fitness is inferior to the white applicant. so it's a question of which is more important: the best man for the job, or the best mix of colors on the workforce.

of course thats not the topic here but i'm sure it's easy to draw some parallels from this example.. as in the justice system should be fair to EVERYBODY regardless of race. judge equally.
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Old 05-17-2012, 07:29 PM   #87
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and @mindbomber

i know whenever there's a discussion about native people, a lot of RS' ugly sides turn up. I observed that each time you sorta take a slap to the face, and then feel the need to educate others about your race and to educate the simple minded.

Now, i'm not trying to tell you not to stick up for your own people but... don't you think sometimes its in your own best interest to just ignore it? you and I and pretty much a big majority of vancouver acknowledge that there exists some form of racial discrimination against the first natives. It's hard for people to not develop these assumptions that native people in general participate in the aforementioned activities.

I would bet that you've probably explained to other people, including those outside of RS, of how it is wrong to generalize first natives as the negative connotations that people perceive. And i would bet that you've probably been really fustrated over it as well. But i do hope you understand that no matter how many times you lecture people, or try to correct them, people will always be people. People will STILL generalize. You'd have to understand that the world isn't fair, and some people receive the shorter end of the stick while others benefit. Especially in this city, it is RARE, to encounter natives as intelligent as you are. Even for me ... you are probably the first Native person i've seen put together a well constructed argument, and i've seen a lot of natives in vancouver.

My point is... you might be wasting your time trying to educate people. This is a problem that probably won't be fixed in our lifetime.
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Old 05-17-2012, 08:09 PM   #88
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and @mindbomber

i know whenever there's a discussion about native people, a lot of RS' ugly sides turn up. I observed that each time you sorta take a slap to the face, and then feel the need to educate others about your race and to educate the simple minded.

Now, i'm not trying to tell you not to stick up for your own people but... don't you think sometimes its in your own best interest to just ignore it? you and I and pretty much a big majority of vancouver acknowledge that there exists some form of racial discrimination against the first natives. It's hard for people to not develop these assumptions that native people in general participate in the aforementioned activities.

I would bet that you've probably explained to other people, including those outside of RS, of how it is wrong to generalize first natives as the negative connotations that people perceive. And i would bet that you've probably been really fustrated over it as well. But i do hope you understand that no matter how many times you lecture people, or try to correct them, people will always be people. People will STILL generalize. You'd have to understand that the world isn't fair, and some people receive the shorter end of the stick while others benefit. Especially in this city, it is RARE, to encounter natives as intelligent as you are. Even for me ... you are probably the first Native person i've seen put together a well constructed argument, and i've seen a lot of natives in vancouver.

My point is... you might be wasting your time trying to educate people. This is a problem that probably won't be fixed in our lifetime.
Certain people, I understand will forever be blinded by prejudice, and I do not take the time to put forward any more than a brief response directed towards them. In those circumstances, yes, I am ultimately wasting my time by offering any response. In the moment, it feels good, but perhaps you're right and it would be best to not dignify the blatant racism or ignorance with any response.

There are times where I believe there is something to be gained from a constructed response, such as my currently ongoing discussion with Godwin; those conversations I actually put time towards and enjoy. In those discussions, I feel like as if very real progress is being made. The progress may be but a drop in an ocean, but it's slight degree does not negate the positive result.

I know lots of native people who are more than capable of putting together an argument equal or superior to mine. Including other members of RS who are First Nations
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Old 05-17-2012, 08:19 PM   #89
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and @mindbomber

i know whenever there's a discussion about native people, a lot of RS' ugly sides turn up. I observed that each time you sorta take a slap to the face, and then feel the need to educate others about your race and to educate the simple minded.

Now, i'm not trying to tell you not to stick up for your own people but... don't you think sometimes its in your own best interest to just ignore it? you and I and pretty much a big majority of vancouver acknowledge that there exists some form of racial discrimination against the first natives. It's hard for people to not develop these assumptions that native people in general participate in the aforementioned activities.

I would bet that you've probably explained to other people, including those outside of RS, of how it is wrong to generalize first natives as the negative connotations that people perceive. And i would bet that you've probably been really fustrated over it as well. But i do hope you understand that no matter how many times you lecture people, or try to correct them, people will always be people. People will STILL generalize. You'd have to understand that the world isn't fair, and some people receive the shorter end of the stick while others benefit. Especially in this city, it is RARE, to encounter natives as intelligent as you are. Even for me ... you are probably the first Native person i've seen put together a well constructed argument, and i've seen a lot of natives in vancouver.

My point is... you might be wasting your time trying to educate people. This is a problem that probably won't be fixed in our lifetime.
So shut up, grab some ankle and take it?

You know what? I can look at posts, or comments or someone saying the word chug in a sentence, and write him off as a douche, ban his ass and move on.

But do you know how goddamned offensive your post is to people?

"Especially in this city, it is RARE, to encounter natives as intelligent as you are. Even for me ... you are probably the first Native person i've seen put together a well constructed argument, and i've seen a lot of natives in vancouver. "

Re-word: "dude, you are the smartest one of your kind I've met, and I've met a lot of dumb examples of your people"

What's he supposed to say to that? Gee, thanks?

You thought that out. You wrote it intentionally. And don't you dare try to backpeddle your way out of it. You meant what you said.

Let's take a look through history. See how your comments stack up.

Gee Mr. black man...I know being a slave is a drag, but you are so fucking good at picking cotton. I wish you'd stop your complaining-it ain't ever going to change.

Gee Miss, I know being stuck in the kitchen sucks, and no one gives a fuck what you have to say, but women can't handle the vote! And I wish you'd stop complaining-it ain't ever going to change.

Goddamn it! Mindbomber or anyone else has a right to come on a forum such as this and not have his people insulted.

You get the most incredible fail I have ever given.
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Old 05-17-2012, 09:07 PM   #90
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this is getting off topic and down hill but anyways that picture really is garbage, i dont get how some 12 year old girl can take a pic in HD but security cameras suck worst than my nokia 6300. take some money out of the tickets and upgrade the damn cameras, they cant be that god damn expensive, kids have better cameras in their pockets /end rant
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Old 05-17-2012, 09:22 PM   #91
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this is getting off topic and down hill but anyways that picture really is garbage, i dont get how some 12 year old girl can take a pic in HD but security cameras suck worst than my nokia 6300. take some money out of the tickets and upgrade the damn cameras, they cant be that god damn expensive, kids have better cameras in their pockets /end rant
That money intended for camera upgrades, among other things, went straight into the bonus coffers of those do-nothing Translink executives, yet they still have the stones to demand more money for "transit improvements".
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Old 05-17-2012, 09:29 PM   #92
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So shut up, grab some ankle and take it?

You know what? I can look at posts, or comments or someone saying the word chug in a sentence, and write him off as a douche, ban his ass and move on.

But do you know how goddamned offensive your post is to people?

"Especially in this city, it is RARE, to encounter natives as intelligent as you are. Even for me ... you are probably the first Native person i've seen put together a well constructed argument, and i've seen a lot of natives in vancouver. "

Re-word: "dude, you are the smartest one of your kind I've met, and I've met a lot of dumb examples of your people"

What's he supposed to say to that? Gee, thanks?

You thought that out. You wrote it intentionally. And don't you dare try to backpeddle your way out of it. You meant what you said.

Let's take a look through history. See how your comments stack up.

Gee Mr. black man...I know being a slave is a drag, but you are so fucking good at picking cotton. I wish you'd stop your complaining-it ain't ever going to change.

Gee Miss, I know being stuck in the kitchen sucks, and no one gives a fuck what you have to say, but women can't handle the vote! And I wish you'd stop complaining-it ain't ever going to change.

Goddamn it! Mindbomber or anyone else has a right to come on a forum such as this and not have his people insulted.

You get the most incredible fail I have ever given.
i meant no disrespect, im being realistic. i am 21, and mindbomber is the most intelligent first native ive come across. call me sheltered, but i am speaking from my own experience.

edit : i read this post again and realized how upset you were about my post. i felt kinda bad at first, but then i understand now that youre actually mad at reality. yah, im not gonna backpeddle what i said because you know what? if at the back of my mind i recall these experiences but i "back peddle" when i discuss this with other people, whats the point of discussion? this is a forum after all, and they are created to bring about discussion about various topics. you hate the fact that ive not met other first nations ppl like mindbomber? its one thing to be respectful, and its another to be pratical when we're discussing. i do not condone using racial slurs because it truly is discriminatory.

i tell mindbomber that its in his own best interest to not pursue educating others because i dont think hes using his time well. im not looking down on his efforts, im looking down on how well ppl will absorb the material. people generalize. its normal to generalize, but at the same time the norm is wrong. i dont believe this stigma will last indefinitely, i just know for the time being, the stigma will stick.

people who will agree with me are the ones that see the world as it is. people who dont, such as yourself, are the ones who try to see the world in a better light. the ones who that thinks everyone should be treated fairly, who think nobody should be receiving the shorter end of the stick. truth is, the world is not anywhere close to that. i support the first nations in ridding themselves of their negative image, there is nothing wrong with that. martin luther king himself needed the support and determination of his people in order to fight for their rights. in our case, if mindbomber wants society to think otherwise, there needs to be a collective effort from his people in order to make his "educations" to not go to waste.

Last edited by Drow; 05-18-2012 at 08:04 AM.
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Old 05-17-2012, 09:31 PM   #93
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My point is... you might be wasting your time trying to educate people. This is a problem that probably won't be fixed in our lifetime.
those who do not stand up and "educate" others on their misguided thoughts (no matter how many times they have to say it) such as yours, are no better than those who spew it out.

it is no different that standing by and watching a person have their iPad stolen and not helping in any way.

silence and inaction breeds acceptance.

Last edited by dinosaur; 05-17-2012 at 11:24 PM.
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Old 05-17-2012, 09:58 PM   #94
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i meant no disrespect, im being realistic. i am 21, and mindbomber is the most intelligent first native ive come across. call me sheltered, but i am speaking from my own experience.
First NATIONS. Nations. I don't think he's the first Native.
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Old 05-17-2012, 10:15 PM   #95
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Fucking chugs
Ban the FAGGOT "preeeluuuude" too for thanking the comment. Moron.
I couldn't find a better word to use for the bitch. Btw, i'm not Indian, just a person who see's good in every race.
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Old 05-17-2012, 11:13 PM   #96
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all of rs must have grown up at van tech or something
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Old 05-18-2012, 12:33 AM   #97
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I don't see why ignorant and racist/stereotypical comments towards Aboriginals get so much attention when there are plenty of other posts about other cultures and people that get looked passed without a thought.

Not saying its okay but its kinda inconsistent..
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Old 05-18-2012, 01:30 AM   #98
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I don't see why ignorant and racist/stereotypical comments towards Aboriginals get so much attention when there are plenty of other posts about other cultures and people that get looked passed without a thought.

Not saying its okay but its kinda inconsistent..
Go live in Alberta and Saskatchewan for a few months.

I guarantee that you will despise them when you come back. Used to live in the Prairies way back, these people can't even hold on to a 50 dollar bill, just gets blown on alcohol, and then they go stealing wheels and cigarettes.

I vote for Gleichen, Alberta.
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Old 05-18-2012, 06:21 AM   #99
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Ban the FAGGOT "preeeluuuude" too for thanking the comment. Moron.
I couldn't find a better word to use for the bitch. Btw, i'm not Indian, just a person who see's good in every race.
make a comment about being open minded, but then use the word faggot?
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Greenstoner
1 rat shit ruins the whole congee
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You cannot live the life of a whore and expect a monument to your chastity
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[22-12, 08:51]mellomandidnt think and went in straight..scrapped like a bitch
[17-09, 12:07]FastAnna glowjob
[17-09, 12:08]FastAnna I like dat

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Old 05-18-2012, 06:30 AM   #100
Pull Out Towing. Women rescued for free.
 
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Originally Posted by Meowjin View Post
all of rs must have grown up at van tech or something

Why yes I did go to Van Tech.

BTW, the guy that was caught is known to police with a pretty intensive criminal past. It has been argued that he was born with fetal alcohol syndrom and is a drug addict.
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Originally posted by Iceman_19 you should have tried to touch his penis. that really throws them off.
Originally posted by The7even SumAznGuy > Billboa
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