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Old 10-21-2012, 12:02 AM   #101
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PressTV just premiered a new show called "The Monarch" and the guy on here lays it all out... he even calls persons with your kind of view as brainwashed.
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Old 10-21-2012, 01:12 AM   #102
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Anyone can call anyone brainwashed. The word's been thrown around quite a bit in this thread.
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Old 10-21-2012, 01:28 AM   #103
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Read wiki, went to citations to verify quotes. Compared nazis to Jews. That ken o'keefe guy is a conspiracy theorist. One of them 9/11 inside job people too.

So by logic, you agree with his views. Him comparing Nazi's to Jews probably makes him a holocaust denier. So, are you one too Arash? *waits for question deflection*

Yeah...this guy is a lunatic. I think you're the brainwashed one by posting this garbage.

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Old 10-21-2012, 01:42 AM   #104
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I'm sorry that I appear to be hung up on this, but I still can't wrap my head around the fact that despite the fact that most of us can quite readily agree that western news stations are biased, you're unwilling to admit that PressTV and RI also both have their own slanted views when it comes to their presentations.
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Old 10-21-2012, 11:30 AM   #105
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I can't wait to see the REAL STORY on PressTV about the Sonia Dridi attack and how its an entirely westernized display put on by the Americans working with agent provocateurs.
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Old 10-21-2012, 12:06 PM   #106
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all this use of the word slant by you brainwashed zionist illuminati capitalist pigs insult my people...



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Old 10-21-2012, 01:19 PM   #107
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As I, turn up the collar on
My favorite winter coat
This wind is blowing my mind
I see the kids in the streets,
With not enough to eat
Who am I to be blind?
Pretending not to see their needs

A summer disregard,a broken bottle top
And a one man soul
They follow each other on the wind ya' know
'Cause they got nowhere to go
That's why I want you to know


I'm starting with the man in the mirror
I'm asking him to change his ways
And no message could have been any clearer
If you want to make the world a better place
Take a look at yourself, and then make a change

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Old 10-21-2012, 01:33 PM   #108
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Old 10-21-2012, 01:36 PM   #109
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Holy shit this thread just turned facebook emo.
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Old 10-21-2012, 03:07 PM   #110
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reading this thread

its like trying to find the ghost of Bigfoot.
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Old 10-21-2012, 07:46 PM   #111
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This thread is now about Iranian Human Rights Violations *waits for response saying this is Zionist Propaganda*

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Old 10-21-2012, 07:57 PM   #112
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I would be interested to see how propaganda is spun on this documentary, but not anytime soon.
Anyone else, dont buy into the bullshit of these kind of videos... specially this one being from the muppet state of Qatar that funds rebels to throw captured syrian soldiers off roofs (theres video), straight up go into a neighborhood and kill 50+ civilians at a time, execute captured Syrian solders in groups of 10-20 (there video), create terror in the civilian population with bombs and indiscriminate murder, etc.
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Old 10-21-2012, 08:14 PM   #113
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This thread is now about Iranian Human Rights Violations *waits for response saying this is Zionist Propaganda*
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UNITED NATIONS — Two new high-level reports issued here last week expressed concern over continuing human rights violations in Iran, highlighting intensifying attacks on journalists and human rights defenders and continuing discrimination against women, girls, and minorities, including members of the Baha'i Faith.

In his annual report on Iran to the UN General Assembly, Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon expressed "grave concern" over reports of torture, amputations, unfair trials, overuse of the death penalty, and the persecution of minorities, including Baha'is.

Ahmed Shaheed, the special rapporteur on human rights in Iran, also released his report to the Assembly, saying he had this year "catalogued a wide range" of human rights violations, including illegal limits on freedom of expression, failures of legal due process, attacks on freedom of religion, and the wrongful imprisonment of children.

"These violations are products of legal incongruities, insufficient adherence to the rule of law, and the existence of widespread impunity," said Mr. Shaheed.

Bani Dugal, principal representative of the Baha'i International Community to the United Nations, said the two documents paint a grim picture of life for the people of Iran.

"The two reports tell of a country where fundamental freedoms such as the rights to due process, speech, assembly, and religious belief are consistently and harshly denied, even though Iran has pledged to uphold such freedoms.

"They also outline the degree to which Iran has refused to cooperate with international human rights monitors, such as Mr. Shaheed, in defiance of the international community, which has repeatedly called on Iran to live up to its obligations under international law," said Ms. Dugal.

Mr. Ban's report highlighted the situation of journalists, human rights defenders, and women's rights activists, who he said are increasingly targeted by the Iranian government as it seeks to limit freedom of expression or assembly.

"As of December 2011, at least 40 journalists had reportedly been imprisoned, with several others at risk of arrest," said Mr. Ban.

Mr. Ban also noted that human rights defenders have reportedly been tortured while in detention all for "peacefully exercising their right to freedom of expression, association and assembly."

He also took note of the situation of minorities, highlighting in particular Iran's Baha'i community. More than 474 Baha'is have been arrested since 2004, he said, and Baha'is face "severe socioeconomic pressure." He noted for example that Baha'i students are prevented from pursing higher education.

Dr. Shaheed's report extensively discussed freedom of religion, specifically addressing the situation of Baha'i, Christian, and Dervish communities in Iran. "Members of both recognized and unrecognized religions have reported various levels of intimidation, arrest, detention and interrogation that focus on their religious beliefs," said Dr. Shaheed.

Dr. Shaheed devoted two paragraphs to the situation of the Baha'i community of Iran. He noted that while the government claims that Baha'is have "equal legal, social and economic rights," he continues to receive reports that Baha'is "face intimidation and arrest because of their religion."

"For example, on 17 February 2012, officials reportedly arrived at a charity event in Mashhad, demanded the cell phones of all present, required them to report on their personal details, and identify their religion in writing and in front of a video camera....

"Moreover, individuals that identified themselves as Muslims were reportedly separated from Baha'is, questioned about their relationships with Baha'i attendees and released. The authorities then reportedly proceeded to arrest a number of Baha'is," wrote Dr. Shaheed.

Dr. Shaheed also expressed concern about revisions to Iran's national "Islamic Penal Code," which he said treats men and women unequally and institutionalizes religious discrimination.

"For example, article 558 of the revised Islamic Penal Code stipulates that diya [blood money] be equally distributed to religious minorities that are recognized by the Constitution. However, equitable application of the law does not apply to religions that are not recognized by the Constitution, such as the Baha'i."

His report also expressed concern over violations of the rights of children, noting in particular that Iran itself had recently announced that some "70 children that had not committed any crime lived in prisons because their mothers were imprisoned." Other reports, he noted, indicated that as many as 450 innocent children are wrongfully imprisoned in this way.

"In addition to being deprived of childhood experiences, these children are also exposed to poor prison conditions, including poor hygiene and malnutrition, which drastically impair their physical, emotional and cognitive development and place them at a serious disadvantage when they are released with their parent," wrote Dr. Shaheed.

Dr. Shaheed concluded: "The submissions and interviews considered for this report provide a deeply troubling picture of the overall human rights situation in the Islamic Republic of Iran, including many concerns which are systemic in nature."
"Grave concern" over Iran's human rights abuses - Bahá'í World News Service

Human rights in the Islamic Republic of Iran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

International Campaign for Human Rights in Iran

...etc, etc, etc...
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Old 10-21-2012, 08:17 PM   #114
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I would be interested to see how propaganda is spun on this documentary, but not anytime soon.
Anyone else, dont buy into the bullshit of these kind of videos... specially this one being from the muppet state of Qatar that funds rebels to throw captured syrian soldiers off roofs (theres video), straight up go into a neighborhood and kill 50+ civilians at a time, execute captured Syrian solders in groups of 10-20 (there video), create terror in the civilian population with bombs and indiscriminate murder, etc.
ANOTHER SUCCESSFUL DEFLECTION!


This video isn't about SYRIA. It's about Iran. Why don't you answer the human rights abuses in question in the video instead of bringing up the irrelevant argument of what Qatar has done.

There's no reasoning with you is there? You think Iran is right, and therefore what you say is right too? You ignore all other criticisms of your sources and posts and just pile on more bullshit that has nothing to do with the questions you FAIL to answer.

So answer my fucking question: What about the Human Rights abuses in IRAN? Not Syria, Not Canada, not anywhere else. If anything, Iran is still far behind compared to other Middle Eastern Countries in terms of womens rights and fundamental freedoms for its citizens. Don't rebut my last sentence, answer the fucking question.

And while you're at it, answer Lomac's too, instead of posting Michael Jackson, which had NOTHING to do with anything.

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Old 10-21-2012, 08:33 PM   #115
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I can't believe such an insightful post came out of such a garbage thread. MindBomber you should start a thread about First Nations issues and post news as well as your own analysis of the situation. I know I would follow it and I'm sure many others would.
If everyone were as open to listening, or reading about the issues facing First Nations communities as you, I would eagerly make that thread. Unfortunately, people who take an interest in looking beyond preconceptions are the exception, and I refer to Graeme's post as an example of that.

Fortunately, everyone in this thread is quite intelligent and interested, so I'll post my thoughts on another comment made earlier in the thread.

Whether it comes in the form of a question or statement, a sentiment shared by many is that natives should not live on reserves. I'd like to briefly address that with a hypothetical scenario..

Imagine for a moment that the culture passed down to you by your ancestors has been distilled to a single community. All your peoples' unique history and traditions exist no where outside of that community and furthermore is intrinsically tied to a specific piece of land; your language, religion, oral history, art, lifestyle. You now have two options: remain in that community, or move on to live in another more multicultural community.

You're not opposed to living in a multicultural community; quite the opposite, it offers many benefits. Moving to the multicultural community, however, comes with the inevitable reality that your culture will be somewhat diluted, because practicing it will become even less something that surrounds you daily and more something that you embrace on special occasions. Picture a Chinese or South Asian immigrants child raised in a very white neighborhood (like, Kamloops level white), how distant would that child feel from his cultural traditions at age twenty? Now picture, the child's grandchildren, after three generations, how diluted and distant would their ancestry be to them?

My answer to that question: it would be borderline non-existent; your answer may differ slightly, but I'm sure we can agree that with each generation significant dilution would occur.

In that lies the answer to the real reason reserves are important to First Nations people. Moving off the reserve amounts to a decision to allow the culture to go extinct, and that is a sacrifice which is just to great for many to make. If it had not been for residential schools, maybe First Nations culture would be burning that much stronger, and moving off the reserve would be that much more viable an option, but we can only speculate.

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Nice post so far except it appears that Nelson and friends were the ones who sought help from other countries and all of them ignored him as he says in his longer, full video.
Nelson was ignored, yet other organizations are not. I wonder how why they would ignore Nelson, but not other organizations?

It's just like how Nelson went to visit Saddam in 98', he'll speak to whoever will give him a moment of airtime indiscriminately. It's just a coincidence that those willing to give him airtime are distinctly anti-western.

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Old 10-21-2012, 10:46 PM   #116
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What other organization is like Nelson that wants first nations sovereignty? none.

Im just skimming through, but George Galloway also visited Saddam, does that make him bad? Saddam stopped taking orders and started to take care of his own people late in his presidency.
His drive for Kuwait was also nationalistic as it used to be apart of Iraq... I also believe the USA didnt say other wise for the ensuing war to make them profits off what Arab puppet Monarchs get to keep in their bank vaults.

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Old 10-21-2012, 11:20 PM   #117
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What other organization is like Nelson that wants first nations sovereignty? none.

Im just skimming through, but George Galloway also visited Saddam, does that make him bad? Saddam stopped taking orders and started to take care of his own people late in his presidency.
His drive for Kuwait was also nationalistic as it used to be apart of Iraq... I also believe the USA didnt say other wise for the ensuing war to make them profits off what Arab puppet Monarchs get to keep in their bank vaults.
Can you read? Did you pass reading comprehension in high school? Let me make it in bigger font for you.

WHAT ABOUT HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES IN IRAN????

It's an honest question really, yet you ignore it. So people can't be critical of your homeland but you can be critical of Canada? That makes sense.


And you know what just for fun...guess who found an update to your "car"? when did you start it..in 2010? I think it looks WORSE now than it did when you first started! Still not done huh?


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Old 10-22-2012, 12:10 AM   #118
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What other organization is like Nelson that wants first nations sovereignty? none.

Im just skimming through, but George Galloway also visited Saddam, does that make him bad? Saddam stopped taking orders and started to take care of his own people late in his presidency.
His drive for Kuwait was also nationalistic as it used to be apart of Iraq... I also believe the USA didnt say other wise for the ensuing war to make them profits off what Arab puppet Monarchs get to keep in their bank vaults.
Galloway travels to the Middle East because he's active in Middle Eastern issues. Nelson travels to the Middle East because he's incapable of receiving positive airtime on issues pertaining to Canada within Canada. The two scenarios are not comparable, and thus your argument is unsound.

What First Nations groups advocate the importance of sovereignty aside from Nelson?
You say none, but I'm not aware of a First Nations group that does not advocate the importance of sovereignty. Sovereignty is considered fundamental to First Nations rights, and it's something that every Chief and advocate speaks on and works to defend and expand.

You seem to be justifying Saddam's invasion of Kuwait through the fact that it once was a part of Iraq, which is hypocritical, given that earlier in this thread you advocated in favour of independence for Scotland and Quebec. If Scotland secedes, Great Britain would not be justified in an invasion; if Quebec secedes, Canada would not be justified in an invasion; if Alaska secedes (which is becoming increasingly probable), America would not be justified in an invasion.
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Old 10-22-2012, 12:14 AM   #119
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Just a thought here. I have absolutely no qualms with people living where they feel the most comfortable. When I was contemplating moving to Europe, I was looking at areas that were either geared towards my fellow University kin or other English speaking areas. I don't doubt for a second that other groups would do the same. However, let me use Langley as an example here: Up until a few years ago, it was a predominantly white town. When I was going to school, the only Asians I saw were exchange students from my high school's sister school in Japan. Recently, though, a the Korean population has started to explode. Obviously a couple dozen families didn't just all move in at the same time; it took a couple at a time, yet now there are a bunch here.

Where am I going with that? Well, you said that when you move out of the Reserve, you go into a multicultural area where you run the risk of losing your identity. Again, I don't disagree with that, especially once you start going down the future generations. However, should you move and other of your kind follow suit, the chances of your identity disappearing starts to dwindle. Look around to all the various cultures in different cities; there are entire communities based around specific religions and country of origin. Sure, they've integrated into the "Canadian" way, but their cores are all still largely intact. Yes, when you look at the Jewish or the Korean communities, they're able to flourish because there are a larger group of them to begin with... but I don't doubt that Native Americans would be able to follow suit and succeed to the same level of degree as these other groups.



Barring that, yes, they have their Reserves (maybe it's just me, but I don't like that word... some how it feels like that word has become synonymous with everything bad and stereotypical of the Natives... but I digress...). Admittedly I don't know a whole lot about Native Americans as I was never really interested in their history, so some of what I'm going to say may come as naive or negative, and I apologize if I do. It's out of sheer ignorance, not hate or anything else. The typical stereotype of the typical Native is that of laziness, drink-happy, and unwilling to do anything to change it. Whether that stereotype is deserved or not isn't the issue; the fact is that unless the typical non-Native "Canadian" is able to let go of that stereotype, I'm sure many Natives can't be bothered to prove them otherwise. I know there are plenty of successful Natives in Canada -- and I'm sure there are many more that I don't know about, or just simply aren't famous for it -- but there will be those few that continue to live up to the stereotype and forever drag the rest of their kind down with them. Yes, there will always be delinquents in every group out there, regardless of race, but it seems that there's such a larger focus on the Natives because many people feel like they get the world handed to them on a silver platter and then complain that it wasn't coated in gold.

I don't know if there will ever be a genuine solution to the Natives v. Everyone Else issue, but there definitely needs to be a better compromise on both sides before it will change. I don't think going to other countries will help in any way; if anything else, it can often give the appearance of running to Mommy to tattle on the bully that's pushing you at school. Maybe it will work, maybe not. But the problem can only be dealt with internally, within the Canadian government and the citizens of Canada. To say that the leaders of Iran, or Sudan, or Botswana, or whatever other country out there, can help... well, it's foolish to believe it. We all have to look into ourselves and genuinely feel what's best for ourselves, for the Natives, and for everyone in Canada.
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Old 10-22-2012, 01:02 AM   #120
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Just a thought here. I have absolutely no qualms with people living where they feel the most comfortable. When I was contemplating moving to Europe, I was looking at areas that were either geared towards my fellow University kin or other English speaking areas. I don't doubt for a second that other groups would do the same. However, let me use Langley as an example here: Up until a few years ago, it was a predominantly white town. When I was going to school, the only Asians I saw were exchange students from my high school's sister school in Japan. Recently, though, a the Korean population has started to explode. Obviously a couple dozen families didn't just all move in at the same time; it took a couple at a time, yet now there are a bunch here.

Where am I going with that? Well, you said that when you move out of the Reserve, you go into a multicultural area where you run the risk of losing your identity. Again, I don't disagree with that, especially once you start going down the future generations. However, should you move and other of your kind follow suit, the chances of your identity disappearing starts to dwindle. Look around to all the various cultures in different cities; there are entire communities based around specific religions and country of origin. Sure, they've integrated into the "Canadian" way, but their cores are all still largely intact. Yes, when you look at the Jewish or the Korean communities, they're able to flourish because there are a larger group of them to begin with... but I don't doubt that Native Americans would be able to follow suit and succeed to the same level of degree as these other groups.

Barring that, yes, they have their Reserves (maybe it's just me, but I don't like that word... some how it feels like that word has become synonymous with everything bad and stereotypical of the Natives... but I digress...). Admittedly I don't know a whole lot about Native Americans as I was never really interested in their history, so some of what I'm going to say may come as naive or negative, and I apologize if I do. It's out of sheer ignorance, not hate or anything else. The typical stereotype of the typical Native is that of laziness, drink-happy, and unwilling to do anything to change it. Whether that stereotype is deserved or not isn't the issue; the fact is that unless the typical non-Native "Canadian" is able to let go of that stereotype, I'm sure many Natives can't be bothered to prove them otherwise. I know there are plenty of successful Natives in Canada -- and I'm sure there are many more that I don't know about, or just simply aren't famous for it -- but there will be those few that continue to live up to the stereotype and forever drag the rest of their kind down with them. Yes, there will always be delinquents in every group out there, regardless of race, but it seems that there's such a larger focus on the Natives because many people feel like they get the world handed to them on a silver platter and then complain that it wasn't coated in gold.

I don't know if there will ever be a genuine solution to the Natives v. Everyone Else issue, but there definitely needs to be a better compromise on both sides before it will get any better. I don't think going to other countries will help in any way; if anything else, it can often give the appearance of running to Mommy to tattle on the bully that's pushing you at school. Maybe it will work, maybe not. But the problem can only be dealt with internally, within the Canadian government and the citizens of Canada. To say that the leaders of Iran, or Sudan, or Botswana, or whatever other country out there, can help... well, it's foolish to believe it. We all have to look into ourselves and genuinely feel what's best for ourselves, for the Natives, and for everyone in Canada.
The distinction between your example of an emigrant Korean family settling in Langley, and a Native family leaving behind the reserve and living amongst the Canadian population as a whole, is the strength of the traditional culture within the Korean family at the time of emigration and the continued infusion of culture from the mother country.

Where Korean culture is alive and at full-strength, First Nations culture is struggling to survive and little more than tattered remnants of its former self. A Korean family emigrates to Canada with their traditional language, religion, history, and every other element of culture in tact, and furthermore, can continue to seek new re-infusions of said culture via the mother country, whether through trips back or something like the k-pop thread. First Nations people would have difficulty with maintaining culture if they moved off the reserve, because even if all families were to all move, there's very little knowledge of culture within each family remaining to continue practicing and there would be no way to achieve a re-infusion. That makes having a concentration of culture in one area beneficial, because it can be very easily be combined and through the collectively be strengthened, instead of diluted, which, I think is to some degree would be inevitable. I go back to a statement from the post you've quoted, if it had not been for residential schools, living off reserve would probably be more viable, but we can only speculate. Unfortunately, residential schools were very efficient at their intended purpose.

I like that you picked up on reserves having a negative connotation, because it definitely does. Does the stereotypical Native exist to the degree that people perceive, no, but addiction is an enormous problem. I'd liken it to the quote that says, comparing yourselves to others always results in you looking down on yourself, because you're comparing your reality to someone else's highlight reel, except the complete opposite. The general perception of a Native person is lower than reality, because people see the stereotypical drunk native passed out in a park (probably next to a couple people of other races, but I digress), but never take notice of the Native who is totally productive and contributing, because they just blend in to the background of society. My support worker in high school was a single mom, who balanced her full-time roll in the school system between a couple Langley schools, actively working as an accomplished artist, and campaigning for First Nations rights, but no one will ever take notice of her, because she doesn't stand out to the casual observer. Addiction does exist at a higher level within Native communities than non-Native though, and that is the result of multi-generational trends that are difficult to break. Very nearly every elder (a grandparent) was in a residential school, and was severely traumatized enough that they cannot speak about it. Not as many, but still a strong percentage of native people the age of our parents also suffered residential school abuse. Like many people who suffered abuse in childhood, an abnormally high percentage of the residential school survivors turn to addiction (the example of Theoren Fleury comes to mind). So, that even further established addiction within the community that already struggled with addiction (beginning with 'firewater'). Then the trend for addiction to be passed onto the next generation, and you can see why the community hasn't absolved itself of the issues yet..... all I can say is, progress is being made, but more time is needed. Like so many other things Native, communities are rebuilding.

I recognize that the continual pointing of blame to residential schools is probably frustrating to the casual observer, but cultural genocide has a massive impact on a people and it continued to take place until so very recently.

Last edited by MindBomber; 10-22-2012 at 01:25 AM.
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Old 10-22-2012, 01:23 AM   #121
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You know, I'm glad that crazies like Arash stick around for the quality discourse that occasionally pops up.

Mindbomber, you've just earned yourself a get-out-of-ban free card from me. Good on you.
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Old 10-22-2012, 01:28 AM   #122
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And all I got was this lousy user title.
Sorry guys, walls of text intimidate me... Im taking a break.
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Old 10-22-2012, 01:29 AM   #123
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And all I got was this lousy user title.
Sorry guys, brainwashed zionists intimidate me... Im taking a break.
Fixed.
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Old 10-22-2012, 01:34 AM   #124
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What's the solution then? I realize it's an answer that will never manifest on a forum such as this, especially when you consider how long this discussion has been going on throughout the country, but there has to be something out there.

I agree that the residential schools are largely to blame for the current state of a lot of the Native communities, and that there are issues so ingrained into many of the elders minds that they're probably too hard to fix now. So what do we do? Do we keep throwing money at them in the hopes that "money fixes all?" Do we offer as much time with psychiatrists as they need, free of charge? Do we ignore the issue and hope that the ship will eventually right itself? Or do we consider these elders a lost cause and try to focus energy on the newer generations?

There likely isn't a correct answer to that as I'm sure what's needed is a mixture of all of the above, plus many more that I haven't mentioned. But then there's a problem from the non-Natives, namely "Why do we have to pay for this? We didn't cause the issues!" You get the standard backlash from the general public who can't see beyond the stereotype that they have ingrained into their mind, and unfortunately the politicians who can actually make a difference have to listen to their constituency in order to keep their job. They don't want to rock the boat by saying, "Listen, what you have in your head is wrong. Here's the real history, here's what we did wrong, and here is what we need to fix it." All they're concerned about is losing the next election. Sure, they may genuinely want to help, but seeing as the standard Native population is nil compared to the rest, it likely isn't going to happen.

I understand why people like Nelson can be so appealing to certain Natives, though he's also a little too off the rocker to properly speak for the entire Canadian Native population. Someone who advocates the extreme activities he does in order to get his point across is typically someone that will never be properly received by the Canadian government. I think that Nelson can go to which ever world leader he wants in order to talk about the plight of the Canadian Natives, but unless the Native community as a whole decides he's actually speaking on their behalf, all he seems to be doing is hindering their efforts.
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Old 10-22-2012, 03:13 AM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graeme S View Post
You know, I'm glad that crazies like Arash stick around for the quality discourse that occasionally pops up.

Mindbomber, you've just earned yourself a get-out-of-ban free card from me. Good on you.
Thank you, Graeme; although I'll likely never make use of the get-out-of-ban free card, I appreciate the gesture.

My hope is that those who made comments in threads like "Ask a Native," or "Native Rant," will read my posts and some of the misconceptions they have will be clarified. I don't expect my posts to reach everyone, but if they play a roll in breaking through a couple peoples' misconceptions, or help one person understand an issue a little bit better, my time will have been very well spent.

Reading posts from old threads like, "60% of Natives are kicked out of UBC in first year," is hard on the spirit. It's no surprise Native_Rus left RS.

Lo', I'll be back to this thread to respond to your post tomorrow evening.
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