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Posted via RS Mobile |
One of the victims had just moved with their family from Winnipeg two months ago. Girl killed in Connecticut shooting lived in Winnipeg - Manitoba - CBC News |
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For educators that have the right mindset, all they need is the training and tools. They can be trained to use weapons to defend themselves and students. Believe it or not, if educators were given one week and then 2 days per year afterwards of firearms and active shooter training, they would be more trained than half the Law Enforcement officers in North America. Quote:
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I think it was posted earlier in this thread: society has no problems blaming a tool or machine because it cannot be personified and has no logic or reason of its own. Society cannot blame the person because that would mean society failed him. Quote:
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I find this very relevant because all these shooting incidents are happening around the time Obama is talking about renewing the Assault Weapons Ban. Is the Assault Weapons Ban effective at preventing these incidents? (aside: the Columbine shooting occured in 1999 while the Assault Weapons Ban was still in place). Is it a "feel good" law that gives people a false sense of security without addressing the root issue? |
Looking up the 1999 Columbine shooting now and the aftermath is very intriguing. This is a similar type event with high media coverage that occured 13 years ago now. Columbine High School massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Quote:
Does a lockdown plan save lives? I'm very sure it saved many lives in this most recent incident. Did it do anything to help the 26 victims shot? No. Quote:
"some schools across America have renewed existing anti-bullying policies" Further reading has revealed to me that most of these anti-bullying policies involve no preventative measures, they only suspend or expel students that are accused of bullying. This contradicts the Secret Service study posted in the Wiki page which states "expulsion is the spark that pushes some to return to school with a gun". Why is it that after all of these events that happen time and again, everyone lobbies for gun control, and new gun control measures are actually implemented with shootings still happening, yet very little of the aftermath discusses the psychopaths themselves? Wikipedia Virginia Tech Massacre -A whole section dedicated to gun politics, absolutely no mention of mental health measures Wikipedia Aurora Colorado Theatre Massacre -Section dedicated to gun politics, no mention of mental health measures |
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You really need to stop making it seem like gun owners are nuts for having a hobby. Firearms are pieces of metal, plastic, and wood, what makes the owner a nut is how he chooses to use one. We don't need any of the fancy cars out there, most are deemed to be too fast for the street, yet thousands of people are interested in collecting mobile hunks of steel that weigh thousands of pounds and can be driven at speeds exceeding 100 miles per hour. It's all in how you use it, and where. There have been plenty of fatal incidents involving vehicles, hit and runs, drunk driving, you name it. None of those incidents mean that owning a car makes you less mentally stable. Sure, guns may have been invented to kill, but there's more to them than death and destruction nowadays. Notice how licensing and regulations do not stop people from using vehicles to kill others, whether it's an accident or not. |
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I'm not sure how to respond to this, short of re-iterating the point from my prior response: the psychological profile associated with a person capable of spontaneously responding to an act, is not comparable to a person capable of arranging and training for a pre-planned response to an act. The qualities that makes a person a good kindergarten teacher are juxtaposed to those that make a person a good police officer. Quote:
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Guns used for hunting enable humans to easily kill non-human animals, not much of a difference there though. Guns used for target shooting substitute paper for humans or non-human animals, but often the targets are images of humans. Trucks are designed to enable humans to easily transport objects. Knives are designed to enable humans to easily cut vegetables, boxes, and such. A person can commit mass assault or murder with a truck, and there will be no calls to restrict access to them. A person can commit mass assault or murder with a knife, and there will be no calls to restrict access to them. If a person commits assault or murder with a firearm, there will be an instant response to restrict access to them. Why? A person who commits mass assault or murder with a truck or knife is grossly manipulating the intent of its design. A person who commits mass assault or murder with a firearm is using it for the purpose it was designed. I do find the earlier idea interesting, and there's some truth in it. It's not completely unjustified that some fault is given to firearms though, they're fufilling the purpose of their design. There needs to be a better system for catching the people before they fall so low. It is a very difficult proposal to catch all those people, and restricting the access of those who slip through the cracks to have to firearms effectively limits the harm they can do. Quote:
Why Crime Keeps Falling - WSJ.com Quote:
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But I don't keep loaded guns around, not just because it would be a pain in the ass to do so, but because it is stupid and pointless. When I want to go shooting, I run hit up the gun range in Washington. They have all these guns to choose from, in a controlled environment, where guns belong - on the shooting range. Not in your fucking closet. There is no good reason to keep guns and ammo in your home, even if you're a huge gun buff. Collect the guns, take it to the range to shoot, but why do you need ammo right there with the gun? There is literally nothing good that can come from it. |
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Guns were designed to kill and nothing more. It's a hobby for many but I don't see the benefits of allowing people to carry weapons to outweigh the cost. Posted via RS Mobile |
We don't need Jesus, We need Magneto so that we can collect all the guns together and keep one for himself so that he can rule America! Arguing about Gun control is like saying We need AIDS control cuz AIDS is bad. No shit, I think we all know that. But its too late, you can't convince half of America to give up all their guns. The genie is out the bag. So I guess they just have to accept that innocents will die every year because of this necessity to be armed in case the US government turns on its own people cough Patriot Act cough |
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While attacks on Israel and America are different, the same logic of method used applies. If not guns, home made bombs, knives, etc. Controlling guns is society avoiding the base issue which is mentally ill people are being ignored in America to the point where they justify themselves making these attacks. You made a previous argument that making bombs is difficult to learn or do for the average person. The Aurora theatre shooter booby trapped his apartment with home made bombs. If you take away one method, psychopaths will find another. 2012 Aurora shooting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Quote:
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I would still love to be presented with an article dispelling causation between increasing armed citizens and decreasing homicide rates. |
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Your original remark was that simply owning multiple firearms meant that you must have some sort of mental problem. You didn't add the part about ammo or having the guns actually loaded until now. There is no reason for a gun to be loaded if you only intend to use it at a range, I'm not disputing that, because I already agree. The only part I have a problem with, is the ammo arguement. Anybody that has owned a firearm, knows that you have to experiment with yours to find what ammo is best for it. A gun range is not guaranteed to have the spec of ammo your firearm operates safely with. But even then, your ammo and weaponry are supposed to be separated in a locked container, in a safe. My parents are strongly against having guns in the apartment, but we've come to the agreement that they would be safe enough at our shop (in an industrial area). |
I really hate to say this but I highly doubt you'll see any new gun laws even after this massacre. The gun lobby is too powerful and way too many elected officials are linked to the NRA and other lobby groups, they would never vote for laws that would ban or restrict guns because it risks losing elections. |
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To me, the main thing is that nothing good can come from that situation. Only bad. |
There's an inherent flaw in comparing gun ownership to owning multiple vehicles. As has already been stated, vehicles were built with a vastly different purpose in mind when compared to a firearm. Yes, a car can be used to drive through a crowd full of people, but that doesn't mean it was built for the purpose. Virtually anything laying around you can be used as a weapon. Sure, most would be pretty useless, but some can be quite deadly. If anything, compare firearms to a bow and arrow, or even a crossbow. The latter two have been long since phased out as old technology, yet people still go to an archery range and fire off some arrows. Hell, I know someone who still hunts with one. They were bred for the same purpose as firearms: to hunt and kill. Doesn't stop it from being fun to play around with, though. Quote:
Shooting at a range can be fun, especially if you're looking to fire off a gun you don't own, but there are often restrictions. Typically, indoor ranges don't allow center fire rifles and limit the calibre you can use. Many outdoor ranges are the same as well. To address the fact that no one needs to own a gun in their house... to a certain degree I agree. If you live in a Yaletown condo or reside in a random suburb of the GVRD, that's more or less true. There's no "real reason" why you need to have a firearm locked up in your place of residence. The laws are clearly not on the defendants side if a burglar breaks in and you shoot him. That's been made clear multiple times in the past. However, for many people who live outside of the GVRD (or any major metropolis in Canada), a rifle is often a necessity. My best friend lives in the middle of butt fuck nowhere land, on property that often sees many top-chain animals of prey roaming through it on any given week. Add to that fact that she has two young daughters to watch out for, and a rifle suddenly becomes an attractive proposition. And keep in mind she only has twenty acres to contend with. Many of her neighbours and family friends have multiple hectres of land to look after. Their crops and livestock are constantly under watch by wolves, coyotes, bears and other animals. For people like these, a firearm is simply part of their tools: typically not needed, but glad it's there for when it is. To touch again on your main point, however, I think restricting guns to only ranges is the wrong step. In Canada, guns and ammo have to be locked up separately from one another. Most owners I know also either take out the firing pin or put a trigger lock on when they know it wont be used for a while. Responsible gun owners such as these are the ones that suffer when the government pulls it's knee jerk reaction. No, it's not "hard" to get your PAL, but it's a long enough process that it would deter the typical hot-headed person from deciding to get a gun and shooting up a populated area. Again, you say that there's no "real reason" to own a gun, but what about responsible hobbyists? A guy I know collects pre-WW2 prohibited handguns. Many aren't in working condition anymore, but some are. These guns are as much interest to a firearms historian as an old 1930's Bolex H-16 film camera is to me. I would never spout the Second Amendment as a valid reason for gun ownership. Instead, I would say that through proper background checks and formal, government approved methods of training, gun ownership should be open to all who pass. Banning firearms entirely will never solve mass murders and it only ends up affecting those who are responsible. That is, of course, simply based on ownership. Tackling mental health issues is another thing entirely and one I wont bother going into. |
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I do not think that teachers are cowards, not at all. Quote:
If I chose, I could go to a hardware store and find a dozen instruments to kill in as many minutes. Whether I find a hammer, axe, chainsaw, nail gun, or knife at the hardware store, none of those items would be anywhere near as capable as a firearm, and that's the whole point. Firearms are very good at what they've be designed to do; they're so good at it they've changed the outcome of wars, and revolutionized society. I do not dispute, controlling firearms is a pathetic alternative to catching mentally ill people before they reach such a low level. I don't think it's possible for society to catch all mentally ill people though, no matter how much effort is applied to the task. Humans, are, humans, we're very flawed and limited in our abilities. The US army officer who went on a killing spree at Fort Hood, BTK serial killer, and Canadian army pilot serial killer, are very good examples of just how difficult it is to catch everyone. If we accept that it's simply not possible to kill everyone, restricting access to firearms can limit the damage they're capable of doing. One minor correction - I didn't say an IED was difficult for an average person to build, only that is more difficult than legally purchasing a gun. Quote:
Here's another article, it focuses more on violent crime, but applies the same basic reasoning: Spoiler! Everything it points out sounds more plausible than guns detering crime, except maybe the lead thing. If guns do deter crime, how could America have such high crime rates, despite having so many guns compared to other areas of the world? |
Think we all need to stop with the political stuff. Yeah it has great value in what you guys are saying. But just think of the children and the other victims, and pray for their families. |
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Take a look at the article I posted a while back about Japan. They have super strict gun control - and it is working. However look at the rights the people had to give up to do it. It might work there, maybe because that's just the way it's always been. But for the government to straight up ban guns goes directly against why they were allowed to carry them in the first place. It's really tricky... I hate the government - especially federal - telling people what they can and can't do. Something does need to happen though, maybe something along the lines of banning the ability to have guns and ammo in the same place, or something like that. |
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We're all heartbroken and angry and want something done that can lessen the chance of this happening again. |
I lay the blame on the parent(s). Not the guns. There are too many irresponsible parents out there. Violence or drug/alcohol abuse stems from poor parenting. If the kid does have mental health issues, a stupid prepper mother shouldn't be buying guns and ammo and storing it in the house. Personally, I think if any minor commits a crime, the parents should be held as accountable and be laid with the same charges. It's like have a potentially vicious dog loose in the neighborhood - the owner in the end is held responsible. |
I was just watching Fox News and CNN and it's refreshing to see them finally talking about the other major issue in America that is directly linked to mass shootings which is mental health and the collapsing mental health industry. The indusry has been in decline because insurance companies are finding ways not to pay for issues related to mental health. It's the same problem up here; prefect example is the story about that guy last week that almost killed those 3 elderly women in DT. He went to St. Paul's a few days before the attack asking for help and he was turned away, the mentally ill have nowhere to turn. And I can't stand people who say "I have a friend who has mental issues but he/she would never kill innocent children", news flash: not all mental illness is the same, it affects people differently and needs to be diagnosed individually. |
The TRUE SOURCE of RANDOM & MASS SHOOTINGS and VIOLENCE ... is crusading to STOP mandatory mental screening and forced drugging of our children. This video highlights the link between psychiatric drugs and acts of senseless violence, including nearly all recent mass-shootings and school shootings. Discover more truth about Psychiatry's evil reign as the true shadow governments that have a chokehold on all sectors of society With all the sadistic and degenerate media that is shown on our TV's and movies, couple that with the drugs and poverty rates in the U.S. ... you'd be stupid not to have arms in your home. Whether its for the fear of a night time attacker, day time house invasion, or another bank schemed depression causing nation wide chaos... making it known you have a weapon when there's intruders could save ones life or from you and your family being raped. If suspects and deranged persons know citizens are armed, they would think twice about doing such crime and would only have the upper hand against weak defenseless individuals. Same with the political situation, intellectuals knew elites will eventually encroach on America, citizens having guns is one layer of protection in keeping some sort of sovereignty. |
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Best post in this thread. |
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A good look at what's its like to parent someone with mental illness; a parent who's someday worried that she may be raising her own Dylan Klebold or Eric Harris but doesn't have the heart to send him to jail. This article really focuses on the problem of dealing with mental illness rather than gun control. The Anarchist Soccer Mom Spoiler! |
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