SkyTrain won't take bus transfers with new Compass Card system

[bobbinka]

Originally Posted by Traum

The numbers I quoted are all based on known facts and info that Translink has released themselves:

That's $6M of revenue and revenue alone. You have not and CANNOT account for the costs that would be associated with buying, implementing, and maintaining the system. Revenue is nothing if the costs exceed it, costs that neither you or I have the actual numbers for. So let's stop pretending we know what they are.

"Translink would make this much"
"Translink would break even if..."
"The costs couldn't be greater than..."

No. You don't know, we don't know.

[Traum]

Originally Posted by K-Dub

Who in their right mind would continue their day by day transit, each time paying the double fare? Then the real idiocy here is the user, not the provider.

These are very likely people who only use public transit on an occasional basis. If someone only take the bus and then Skytrain to Downtown 3 or 4 times a year, does it make sense for them to buy and keep a Compass card, and have its funds locked up in the card the rest of the year? Some will still do it. Others won't.

Originally Posted by bobbinka

That's $6M of revenue and revenue alone. You have not and CANNOT account for the costs that would be associated with buying, implementing, and maintaining the system. Revenue is nothing if the costs exceed it, costs that neither you or I have the actual numbers for. So let's stop pretending we know what they are.

It's good to see you acknowledging that there is potentially a $6M extra revenue at stake for Translink. With that particular estimate established, the discussion should then be focused on whether it is right for Translink to do nothing and reap in that extra revenue by double charging people. Judging by the posts here, some such as K-Dub will think that these people should pay for their own idiocy. Others such as myself will think this is not the right thing to do. And that is precisely what we have been doing all along in this thread.

[Eff-1]

Originally Posted by Traum

Tapioca, please realize that laypersons do not necessarily mean they are stupid people. Just because they are not experts in the field doesn't mean they have no idea of how things work on a broad scale.

With 6000 cash paying riders a day and 46 Skytrain and Canada Line stations around, that's an average of 130 transactions per station per day. It is perfectly adequate to have a single ticket conversion machine at each skytrain / Canada Line station to look after their needs.

So let's say Translink wants to engineer that machine from scratch. And let's assume an engineer capable of working on this project makes $150k/yr. And let's say we'll need a team of 10 such engineers. Based on my own experience in the technology field, a project like this shouldn't take more than 6 months to complete. So let's say we give them 9 months to pull this one through.

Salary-wise, that's $150k x 10 engineers x 9 months = $1.125M

I think I am being generous with my above estimates. None of the technology required is new or novel, so there should be no R&D involved. It is just a matter of sitting down to come up with a design, do a bunch of testing, and then you are ready to deploy.

So now, lemme ask you this -- does it cost $8M to manufacture and install 46 machines along the Skytrain and Canada Line stations?

If this is not incompetence on Translink's part, I don't know what is.

This reminds me of the retired guy who shows up to strata council meetings with large pie charts and a laser pointer.

[TPMarko]

i drive the majority of the time for my commute and only use bus to avoid drunk driving or going to downtown where parking is $$$. i carry a car2go card even tho i rarely use it because you never know when its handy and i plan on getting a compass card for the same reasons. i don't see what the fuss is about. its $6 to get a fucking card that pays for itself in the 14% discount you will get off the fares. why is this so difficult?

[twitchyzero]

Originally Posted by Razor Ramon HG

EDIT: Misleading title.. read through the article, and it's the same in Korea. If you pay with cash, the box doesn't print out a ticket. No one seems to care.. then again, everyone uses a transit card here.

Judging from majority of the responses people jumped on the hate wagon before reading the article

dont get me wrong...I have my fair shares of Translink rant...but this subpar implementation isn't something to lose sleep over...get a Compass Card that costs a few dollars and your problems will be solved.

[bobbinka]

Originally Posted by Traum

It's good to see you acknowledging that there is potentially a $6M extra revenue at stake for Translink. With that particular estimate established, the discussion should then be focused on whether it is right for Translink to do nothing and reap in that extra revenue by double charging people. Judging by the posts here, some such as K-Dub will think that these people should pay for their own idiocy. Others such as myself will think this is not the right thing to do. And that is precisely what we have been doing all along in this thread.

Revenue does not equate profit. That $6M of "potential" revenue does not mean anything without realizing the true cost of obtaining and maintaining that $6M revenue cash flow annually. The total cost of ownership must be considered, information that (again) we do not have, and therefore cannot draw a conclusion from.

If you want to shift the argument to "whether it's right or wrong", then you need to understand that decisions like this are not so black and white. No matter what decision any government or public organization makes, there will always be someone who will be unhappy. it would not be cost effective to try and please everyone. Do you think everyone was happy with building the Canada Line? What about the Port Mann Bridge and paying tolls?

Perhaps you should consider being a politician, maybe you can better help those people that are subject to these unfair changes.

[CP.AR]

[MindBomber]

Originally Posted by Traum

I don't know what the benefit is with paying cash in this case. But apparently, some people (6000 of them a day) prefer to continue using cash even if there is a monetary incentive to not do so.

Incorrect, Translink has not stated this point. You're demonstrating your lack of understanding, here.

At present, an average of six thousand people pay cash to purchase a fare on a bus and transfer onto the Skytrain. The alternative options to a cash fare are faresaver tickets or a monthly pass, the former less convenient and the later impractical for occasional users. Therefore, it is appropriate to expect the average of six thousand people who pay cash to purchase a fare on a bus and transfer onto the Skytrain to decline as a proportion will adopt the convenient Compass Card. My hypothesis is supportable through the example of other cities that have adopted similar programs, as they've seen high electronic pass adoption rates among users.

As a result, your arguments which include the six thousand people premise are invalid. The six thousand people may well drop to one thousand people, we don't know.

[Traum]

MindBomber,

It isn't my lack of understanding that I am demonstrating here. Rather, it is a lack of read comprehension that you have displayed. In my original post, I have clearly indicated that a sizable portion will switch to the Compass card.

How small this cash-paying group will shrink to is anybody's guess. Initially, this group will probably only shrink a bit. Over time, it will continue to decline until it hits a plateau. There will always be people preferring or finding themselves the need to pay cash instead of using the Compass card.

Originally Posted by MindBomber

Incorrect, Translink has not stated this point. You're demonstrating your lack of understanding, here.

At present, an average of six thousand people pay cash to purchase a fare on a bus and transfer onto the Skytrain. The alternative options to a cash fare are faresaver tickets or a monthly pass, the former less convenient and the later impractical for occasional users. Therefore, it is appropriate to expect the average of six thousand people who pay cash to purchase a fare on a bus and transfer onto the Skytrain to decline as a proportion will adopt the convenient Compass Card. My hypothesis is supportable through the example of other cities that have adopted similar programs, as they've seen high electronic pass adoption rates among users.

As a result, your arguments which include the six thousand people premise are invalid. The six thousand people may well drop to one thousand people, we don't know.

[daytona675]

Originally Posted by nabs

I hope its as simple as scan and walk, and works that fast. That's how the system is in MTL, TO and NYC and it works really well and fast. However they use turnstiles and not gates.. too many moving parts = more parts to fix when it breaks down

my thoughts exactly, all those cities use turnstiles, and have proven track records for reliablilty. if you have the doors opening and closing 30x a minute, wouldn't you think those doors will just fall off sooner or later?

I'm not sure what translink was thinking. They'll eventually probably ask for more money later on to change all of those faregates into turnstiles.
those doors are going to take a beating and I estimate those doors aren't cheap either. lol

[daytona675]

Originally Posted by Razor Ramon HG

Just curious.. but for who that are complaining, have they ever even used another transit system with a pass? Everything is being blown out of proportion.

I'm just curious if they'll make an NFC app.

maybe you should become an adviser for translink for thinking something like that!

[MindBomber]

Originally Posted by Traum

MindBomber,

It isn't my lack of understanding that I am demonstrating here. Rather, it is a lack of read comprehension that you have displayed. In my original post, I have clearly indicated that a sizable portion will switch to the Compass card.

How small this cash-paying group will shrink to is anybody's guess. Initially, this group will probably only shrink a bit. Over time, it will continue to decline until it hits a plateau. There will always be people preferring or finding themselves the need to pay cash instead of using the Compass card.

I stand corrected, thank you.

I have not displayed lacking reading comprehension, though. I interpreted the quoted post entirely accurately, and simply did not read the linked post. I haven't the time to read over all two-hundred posts on a nearly negligible percentage of transit transfers.

[Traum]

Originally Posted by MindBomber

I stand corrected, thank you.

I have not displayed lacking reading comprehension, though. I interpreted the quoted post entirely accurately, and simply did not read the linked post. I haven't the time to read over all two-hundred posts on a nearly negligible percentage of transit transfers.

I stand corrected as well. Thank you.

[Soundy]

Originally Posted by Traum

Don't call it a conspiracy, Grid. Just look at the numbers yourself and come to your own conclusion.

I was wondering when CharlesInCharge would show up in this thread.

[UFO]

Originally Posted by StylinRed

Seems like Translink is just listening to us drivers finally start gouging those who use the transportation services and give us drivers some slack

well now lets hope we drivers are given a break from more taxes to pay for bus/train services :/

Don't worry, they are just taking a break from gouging drivers. It will be back in no time

Originally Posted by Soundy

How so? Because the machines at SkyTrain stations can't read paper transfers? So what should they have done, spend a shitload of extra money to add that capability for something that's going to be phased out eventually anyway?

Originally Posted by Mr.HappySilp

Another option of installing machines at SkyTrain stations that would take old paper transfers and exchange them for a Compass-compatible card would have cost at least $9 million, Zabel added.

One thing to note is that current Skytrain fare stations can already read the paper transfers with mag stripe. You can upgrade from a 1 zone to 2 zone fare by feeding in your 1 zone transfer (from a bus!), paying the difference, and you get a new 2 zone mag stripe transfer. So I personally don't buy that it will cost 'at least $9M' to retrofit all the existing machines to make them have the same capability, but with Compass. To me, and I'm not as much of an expert in this area as even Traum, seems like some software programming could have been done at relatively cheap prices to make everything work well together since all the hardware and machinery is already currently in place.

For the record I am completely pro-Compass, and this entire issue is blown out of proportion by the media sensationalists. THE simplest solution is for everybody to get a Compass card, life goes on and we are all happy. However I don't believe Translink is telling all of the facts in complete truth, rarely does this ever happen. They are saying it will cost $25M to equip every single bus with a Compass dispenser, whereas it will cost at least $9M to do the same with much fewer stations at Skytrains? Something doesn't add up

Originally Posted by DragonChi

WTF, implementing compass to stop fare evaders? what a bullshit reason. I'm sure fare evaders will still find a way to get past the gates. it's not that hard to jump the gates.

uh, one of the biggest gripes about Skytrain since its implementation 25+ years ago was that you could simply walk on and walk off--this is something that was brought up EVERY time fare evasion became a discussion. The hardcore fare evaders will adapt and evolve and still find a free ride, but fare gates will discourage the casual fare evader, you know the ones who think "I pay my fare 9/10 times and I'm just a quarter short this time so I'll walk on since I likely won't be caught"--those include our dear Mayor Gregor Robertson.

Originally Posted by DragonChi

We'll see how it works out in time. Even if you drive, I wouldn't be surprised if all the bridges were tolled in 10 years. LOL. Vancouver, what a great city, all of the first world problems to be had.

I bet in 10 years it won't just be the bridges that are tolled. If the big cheese get their way, you'll be tolled per mileage driven ,which is fair if you are willing to support transit being charged per distance vs. by zones.

[godwin]

TO's TTC has a simple solution have a gate that people will man to visually look at tickets.

Just because it can be automated, doesn't mean it doesn't have manual backup.

We have this thread where the majority of posters don't ever ride public transit and say it sucks, and we have a real estate thread where the majority are not even in the game, and tell everyone not in go in because the world is ending. Just because you are loud don't make what you say necessarily true or even will happen.

[DragonChi]

Originally Posted by UFO

Don't worry, they are just taking a break from gouging drivers. It will be back in no time



One thing to note is that current Skytrain fare stations can already read the paper transfers with mag stripe. You can upgrade from a 1 zone to 2 zone fare by feeding in your 1 zone transfer (from a bus!), paying the difference, and you get a new 2 zone mag stripe transfer. So I personally don't buy that it will cost 'at least $9M' to retrofit all the existing machines to make them have the same capability, but with Compass. To me, and I'm not as much of an expert in this area as even Traum, seems like some software programming could have been done at relatively cheap prices to make everything work well together since all the hardware and machinery is already currently in place.

For the record I am completely pro-Compass, and this entire issue is blown out of proportion by the media sensationalists. THE simplest solution is for everybody to get a Compass card, life goes on and we are all happy. However I don't believe Translink is telling all of the facts in complete truth, rarely does this ever happen. They are saying it will cost $25M to equip every single bus with a Compass dispenser, whereas it will cost at least $9M to do the same with much fewer stations at Skytrains? Something doesn't add up


uh, one of the biggest gripes about Skytrain since its implementation 25+ years ago was that you could simply walk on and walk off--this is something that was brought up EVERY time fare evasion became a discussion. The hardcore fare evaders will adapt and evolve and still find a free ride, but fare gates will discourage the casual fare evader, you know the ones who think "I pay my fare 9/10 times and I'm just a quarter short this time so I'll walk on since I likely won't be caught"--those include our dear Mayor Gregor Robertson.


I bet in 10 years it won't just be the bridges that are tolled. If the big cheese get their way, you'll be tolled per mileage driven ,which is fair if you are willing to support transit being charged per distance vs. by zones.

I think the issue with the Skytrains is that they have gates there, that are only RFID (compass). So if you don't have a RFID pass, then you can't get into the skytrain.

19 times out 20 I pay my fare, sometimes I forget change, even bus drivers know that and aren't money mongering execs, they still let me on the bus.

Yeah, the pay by distance on roads thing is a good idea. the question is, how are we going to measure everyone's usage? Put meters in all our cars, have cameras for plates everywhere, those are some ideas that were floating around when I was visiting a city that was thinking of implementing it. So yes, I would support pay be distance usage on roads.

Oh and about Translink employees getting paid a lot, I would rather pay them well, instead of them taking bribes for bullshit contracts to supplement their income. If they do a good job, then they should be paid well. But lately they don't seem to be on the ball, well, the decision makers anyways. I say we hire the people working the Australian transit system someone posted about earlier .

[Nlkko]

Originally Posted by UFO

One thing to note is that current Skytrain fare stations can already read the paper transfers with mag stripe. You can upgrade from a 1 zone to 2 zone fare by feeding in your 1 zone transfer (from a bus!), paying the difference, and you get a new 2 zone mag stripe transfer. So I personally don't buy that it will cost 'at least $9M' to retrofit all the existing machines to make them have the same capability, but with Compass.

No shit right. Just go on eBay overnight some parts from China. Don't even need 10 engineers 9 months. You're a genius.

[UFO]

Originally Posted by DragonChi

I think the issue with the Skytrains is that they have gates there, that are only RFID (compass). So if you don't have a RFID pass, then you can't get into the skytrain.

Yeah, the gates open with RFID. The current/old fare machines at Skytrains can read mag stripe transfers, so if they had wanted to they could have had the machines read the mag stripes and exchange it for an RFID pass and the fare gates themselves can still work on RFID only basis.

[bLUEsTEEL]

http://www.revscene.net/forums/67825...rd-stupid.html

[franklucas]

http://www.change.org/en-CA/petition...le-transit-fee

Online pettition against the double transit fee. SIGN it if your angry!
Posted via RS Mobile

[Graeme S]

Originally Posted by franklucas

http://www.change.org/en-CA/petition...le-transit-fee

Online pettition against the double transit fee. SIGN it if your angry !
Posted via RS Mobile

Sign if my angry what?

[Lomac]

Originally Posted by franklucas

http://www.change.org/en-CA/petition...le-transit-fee

Online pettition against the double transit fee. SIGN it if your angry!
Posted via RS Mobile

Hell no.

Quote from that petition:

TransLink is claiming this Double Transit Fee will only impact 6,000 riders. We find this extra fee punitive and this impact estimate hard to believe.

How is it hard to believe? All Translink has to do is look at the total cash from bus trips taken in at the end of the day, compare that amount to the day's total intake, and voila... you've got a very accurate number of how many people pay cash to ride a bus.

[JesseBlue]

Originally Posted by Graeme S

Sign if my angry what?

haha..

[Gridlock]

Originally Posted by Lomac

Hell no.

Quote from that petition:


How is it hard to believe? All Translink has to do is look at the total cash from bus trips taken in at the end of the day, compare that amount to the day's total intake, and voila... you've got a very accurate number of how many people pay cash to ride a bus.

Oh Lomac. No. No. NOOOOOOOOO!

It's people that pay cash on a bus, then take the skytrain. They would have to estimate, as there is no way to know how because we don't actually measure skytrain usage.

I feel like we are getting close, here on page 10, to knowing what the actual problem is. Trauma is already working on a solution guys!