SkyTrain won't take bus transfers with new Compass Card system

[tiger_handheld]

so i've been out of this thread for a bit but has anyone considered the following scenerio:


Joe takes the bus from metrotown to Dunbar every day.
Now he has a 2 zone bus pass to prove that he's a resident in zone 2 ( i know zones are not numbered but lets assume surrey and east is zone 3 , burnaby/tricities/richmond is zone 2 , vancouver is zone 1).
What is stopping joe from "tapping-in" at Metrotown bus loop at which point translink withdraws $5 (cost of a 3 zone fair) from his account and "tapping out" just prior to 49th at Boundary at which point transit will credit $2.50 back to his account resulting in a 1 zone fair of $2.50.
Then Joe continues to remain on the bus for the rest of the journey.

Loophole?

[Soundy]

Originally Posted by Traum

Ideally, with the fare gates in place, the need for having the same number of transit police officers is no longer there. Mind you, I am not calling for the complete elimination of the transit police. Their numbers just need to go down -- probably go way down. That would offset the costs of the fare gates, and the overall operating costs would probably go down.

Of course, being union members, these guys are not going to get laid off. So we are stuck with expensive fare gates AND expensive transit police...

Of course, when little old ladies were getting mugged and young people stabbed at SkyTrain stations, everyone wanted to see more transit cops - and REAL transit cops with guns and Tazers, not just "Transit Security" rent-a-cops with bear spray and bad attitudes...

Couple years later when it comes out how much all those REAL cops are making, everyone's screaming about "why do we need so many of them?!" Well guess what, you want REAL cops, they want REAL cop pay.

Just like with the fare gates and elimination of the Zone system: everyone screamed for these things, and for them to be put in place ASAP... now that that's happening, everyone's pissed off with them and wants things back the way they were.

Well to quote Soundgarden, folks: the grass is always greener where the dogs are shitting.

[tonyzoomzoom]

Originally Posted by tiger_handheld

so i've been out of this thread for a bit but has anyone considered the following scenerio:


Joe takes the bus from metrotown to Dunbar every day.
Now he has a 2 zone bus pass to prove that he's a resident in zone 2 ( i know zones are not numbered but lets assume surrey and east is zone 3 , burnaby/tricities/richmond is zone 2 , vancouver is zone 1).
What is stopping joe from "tapping-in" at Metrotown bus loop at which point translink withdraws $5 (cost of a 3 zone fair) from his account and "tapping out" just prior to 49th at Boundary at which point transit will credit $2.50 back to his account resulting in a 1 zone fair of $2.50.
Then Joe continues to remain on the bus for the rest of the journey.

Loophole?

Maybe they should install the "tap out" point at the bus station instead of the bus; that should close your loophole and everyone can get off the bus quickly without slowing down the bus.

[inv4zn]

Originally Posted by Soundy

Of course, when little old ladies were getting mugged and young people stabbed at SkyTrain stations, everyone wanted to see more transit cops - and REAL transit cops with guns and Tazers, not just "Transit Security" rent-a-cops with bear spray and bad attitudes...

Couple years later when it comes out how much all those REAL cops are making, everyone's screaming about "why do we need so many of them?!" Well guess what, you want REAL cops, they want REAL cop pay.

Just like with the fare gates and elimination of the Zone system: everyone screamed for these things, and for them to be put in place ASAP... now that that's happening, everyone's pissed off with them and wants things back the way they were.

Well to quote Soundgarden, folks: the grass is always greener where the dogs are shitting.

To summarize what you said, and to confirm what I've thought for quite a long time, Vancouver is full of fucking whiners. So many pricks complain for the sake of complaining, and base their decisions out of emotion and spite, rather than reasoning and logic.

One group will come up with a preposterous solution for a very small problem and raise all hell for something to be done. Then another group will come and find a very small flaw in that solution and then make a huge deal out of it.

Knee-jerk reactions and subsequent outrage; front page news all over the Sun and the Province, demanding action now!!

I disagree with some of the things Translink, and other large bodies, private or public, are doing. But Vancouver is one fucking hard city to please.

[Not really racist!]

Originally Posted by tonyzoomzoom

Maybe they should install the "tap out" point at the bus station instead of the bus; that should close your loophole and everyone can get off the bus quickly without slowing down the bus.

95% of the busses if not all already have them installed....

if they were to change it now it'll probably cost millions or something, and then you'd have to install them at every single station, people would destroy them for fun I'd imagine

[Traum]

Originally Posted by Soundy

Of course, when little old ladies were getting mugged and young people stabbed at SkyTrain stations, everyone wanted to see more transit cops - and REAL transit cops with guns and Tazers, not just "Transit Security" rent-a-cops with bear spray and bad attitudes...

Actually, I never understood why Transit Police are needed to maintain safety and security on Skytrains and at the stations. Shouldn't that be the real police's job? As far as I am concerned, Transit Police's primary -- or maybe even only -- raison d'être is to enforce transit bylaws -- that means checking fares, keep the hooligans from doing stupid shxt at the station, etc. If shxt really happens, they should be calling the police for help.

Essentially, they should only be Transit Security, not Transit Police. It makes so much more sense to leave the policing to real and properly trained police.

[UFO]

Originally Posted by inv4zn

To summarize what you said, and to confirm what I've thought for quite a long time, Vancouver is full of fucking whiners. So many pricks complain for the sake of complaining, and base their decisions out of emotion and spite, rather than reasoning and logic.

One group will come up with a preposterous solution for a very small problem and raise all hell for something to be done. Then another group will come and find a very small flaw in that solution and then make a huge deal out of it.

Knee-jerk reactions and subsequent outrage; front page news all over the Sun and the Province, demanding action now!!

I disagree with some of the things Translink, and other large bodies, private or public, are doing. But Vancouver is one fucking hard city to please.

I think every city has its group of whiners for whatever cause. But our media likes to feed these trolls which gets everybody else riled up and the cycle just perpetuates, maybe because we have no real news to report on or our media aren't good enough at investigating real news that matters to most people,

[tgill]

Originally Posted by tiger_handheld

so i've been out of this thread for a bit but has anyone considered the following scenerio:


Joe takes the bus from metrotown to Dunbar every day.
Now he has a 2 zone bus pass to prove that he's a resident in zone 2 ( i know zones are not numbered but lets assume surrey and east is zone 3 , burnaby/tricities/richmond is zone 2 , vancouver is zone 1).
What is stopping joe from "tapping-in" at Metrotown bus loop at which point translink withdraws $5 (cost of a 3 zone fair) from his account and "tapping out" just prior to 49th at Boundary at which point transit will credit $2.50 back to his account resulting in a 1 zone fair of $2.50.
Then Joe continues to remain on the bus for the rest of the journey.

Loophole?

Nothing, you can already do this with the existing system on any bus that travels between zones by paying for a single zone and just staying on the bus.

I will say I've seen more random checks from Transit Security (note not the police) where they will get on the bus and check fares after the bus crosses the zone. This is seldom, but happens on the 49, 25 and 135 every once in a blue moon.

[Nlkko]

Originally Posted by Traum

Actually, I never understood why Transit Police are needed to maintain safety and security on Skytrains and at the stations. Shouldn't that be the real police's job? As far as I am concerned, Transit Police's primary -- or maybe even only -- raison d'être is to enforce transit bylaws -- that means checking fares, keep the hooligans from doing stupid shxt at the station, etc. If shxt really happens, they should be calling the police for help.

Essentially, they should only be Transit Security, not Transit Police. It makes so much more sense to leave the policing to real and properly trained police.

Because most of the time, the presence of an authority figure is enough to deter petty crimes. And police officers don't grow on tree, somebody gotta recruit, train and pay for them. What's next? VPD and RCMP police force gotta scale down too? Quit whining.

[SoNaRWaVe]

Originally Posted by tiger_handheld

so i've been out of this thread for a bit but has anyone considered the following scenerio:


Joe takes the bus from metrotown to Dunbar every day.
Now he has a 2 zone bus pass to prove that he's a resident in zone 2 ( i know zones are not numbered but lets assume surrey and east is zone 3 , burnaby/tricities/richmond is zone 2 , vancouver is zone 1).
What is stopping joe from "tapping-in" at Metrotown bus loop at which point translink withdraws $5 (cost of a 3 zone fair) from his account and "tapping out" just prior to 49th at Boundary at which point transit will credit $2.50 back to his account resulting in a 1 zone fair of $2.50.
Then Joe continues to remain on the bus for the rest of the journey.

Loophole?

it can and will work at major bus stops/loops. the only thing is, i'm not sure if you have to tap for the doors to open up on the busses. if you do, then you're hooped if you have to get off at a stop where no one is getting off because you already tapped out. if you tap to get out, you will now be charged again for a full 3 zone ticket. and now you have to find the nearest thing to tap again, to be charged a 1 zone ticket again.

second of all, like i said before, there are mobile readers that transit cops carry around to see if your card is legitimately validated for you to be on the transit system. but that seems to be more based on luck.

Originally Posted by Traum

Actually, I never understood why Transit Police are needed to maintain safety and security on Skytrains and at the stations. Shouldn't that be the real police's job? As far as I am concerned, Transit Police's primary -- or maybe even only -- raison d'être is to enforce transit bylaws -- that means checking fares, keep the hooligans from doing stupid shxt at the station, etc. If shxt really happens, they should be calling the police for help.

Essentially, they should only be Transit Security, not Transit Police. It makes so much more sense to leave the policing to real and properly trained police.

transit police have full powers of VPD if i recall correctly. but their main focus is on the transit system (property, buses, skytrain etc.) where VPD resources are probably better used somewhere else where needed. besides, translink pays for transit police, so its really their "own authority"

[tiger_handheld]

I wish Translink implemented a system based on RFID instead of tap-in tap out.

no more tap in / out.
install rfid reader at stations - where people can walk in and out and rfid will do its job.

translink needs some young minds on their operations team!

i personally would've contracted Treo to run it- its basically the same system. Probably negotiated a deal for the 2 for 1 ass rape.

[Gunsmokez]

Originally Posted by SoNaRWaVe

it can and will work at major bus stops/loops. the only thing is, i'm not sure if you have to tap for the doors to open up on the busses. if you do, then you're hooped if you have to get off at a stop where no one is getting off because you already tapped out. if you tap to get out, you will now be charged again for a full 3 zone ticket. and now you have to find the nearest thing to tap again, to be charged a 1 zone ticket again.

second of all, like i said before, there are mobile readers that transit cops carry around to see if your card is legitimately validated for you to be on the transit system. but that seems to be more based on luck.




transit police have full powers of VPD if i recall correctly. but their main focus is on the transit system (property, buses, skytrain etc.) where VPD resources are probably better used somewhere else where needed. besides, translink pays for transit police, so its really their "own authority"

Translink police and RCMP/VPD have the exact same amount of Legal power. They can arrest conduct investigations and take people to jail just like regular officers. Their main priority is the SKYTRAIN, they do not cover buses because, there just ain't enough resources/man power.

If a incident happens on the skytrain and say a RCMP officer does not want to handle the case, they hand it over to transit police. And they do the full investigation. And most if not always gets passed down to transit police. Also, transit police is bound by duty to still enforce the law even though it is not near a skytrain area as well. So, they can give you a ticket :P

[Tapioca]

Because most of the time, the presence of an authority figure is enough to deter petty crimes. And police officers don't grow on tree, somebody gotta recruit, train and pay for them. What's next? VPD and RCMP police force gotta scale down too? Quit whining.

I can certainly understand the argument about having a dedicated transit police force. In my opinion, it was a mistake to create a dedicated force. I base this opinion on riding buses and Skytrains for over 20 years. I've never witnessed any serious crimes. I've been approached by one person who was clearly high on drugs who uttered some sort of threat to me, but other than that, I've never been a victim of crime on the system. Mind you, I'm a guy, but I'm not an extraordinarily large guy. In my opinion, having dedicated police on the Skytrain system is overkill. I think the perception that Skytrain results in higher crime is just perception and not backed up any facts. Yes, there have been unfortunate cases of sexual harassment around stations, but were those incidents statistically significant? I reckon not. But, once you create something, you can never get rid of it, so it's really water under the bridge at this point.

Originally Posted by tiger_handheld

I wish Translink implemented a system based on RFID instead of tap-in tap out.

no more tap in / out.
install rfid reader at stations - where people can walk in and out and rfid will do its job.

translink needs some young minds on their operations team!

i personally would've contracted Treo to run it- its basically the same system. Probably negotiated a deal for the 2 for 1 ass rape.

If RFID technology results in tolls costing $3 and up per use, I can't imagine what it would cost to implement that on the transit system where hundreds of thousands of users pass through the system per day.

Sure, RFID technology sounds great on paper, but how come no major transit system in the world uses RFID technology? Not the MTR, not the NYC subway, not Transport for London, not Paris, not Moscow Subway, not anywhere else?

[Gridlock]

Originally Posted by tiger_handheld

I wish Translink implemented a system based on RFID instead of tap-in tap out.

no more tap in / out.
install rfid reader at stations - where people can walk in and out and rfid will do its job.

translink needs some young minds on their operations team!

i personally would've contracted Treo to run it- its basically the same system. Probably negotiated a deal for the 2 for 1 ass rape.

My favorite part about revscene is that the users here are smarter than every engineer in the world.

[tiger_handheld]

Originally Posted by Gridlock

My favorite part about revscene is that the users here are smarter than every engineer in the world.

a 2 second google search provided this : Bus Riders in Hanau Use RFID to Go - RFID Journal

rfid / nfc on busses are possible...

thanks for making me spend 2 seconds to google to see such technology is possible

[DragonChi]

Compass uses RFID technology.

Edit: technically it doesn't. It uses contactless-smartcard tech. Which is more secure but a little more expensive than RFID. The main difference I can see is that RFID is read only. contactless smartcard has writable memory in addition to sending data. The principle of how the card and RFID work are similar though.

[CRS]

Originally Posted by tonyzoomzoom

Maybe they should install the "tap out" point at the bus station instead of the bus; that should close your loophole and everyone can get off the bus quickly without slowing down the bus.

This isn't a bad idea if it weren't for the fact that some people are assholes and would vandalize/destroy all these "tap out" points in protest of something they know nothing about.

[nah]

You can steal data from unprotected RFID chips. That's why NEXUS cards come with a protection sleeve so people can't steal the data and clone your card.

[tgill]

Originally Posted by tiger_handheld

a 2 second google search provided this : Bus Riders in Hanau Use RFID to Go - RFID Journal

rfid / nfc on busses are possible...

thanks for making me spend 2 seconds to google to see such technology is possible

Its possible under our system as well.

What do you think contactless chips are? Just various standards under the same technology umbrella of NFC/RFID. Our readers already support MC, Visa and AMEX and theres nothing stopping them from supporting NFC phones if they so desire in the future.

[UFO]

Originally Posted by SoNaRWaVe

it can and will work at major bus stops/loops. the only thing is, i'm not sure if you have to tap for the doors to open up on the busses. if you do, then you're hooped if you have to get off at a stop where no one is getting off because you already tapped out. if you tap to get out, you will now be charged again for a full 3 zone ticket. and now you have to find the nearest thing to tap again, to be charged a 1 zone ticket again.

I don't think the buses are smart enough to integrate the door controls with tapping out. I'm pretty sure the doors will continue to be activated by touch/motion like they currently are, that's why its possible to get off without tapping off and get charged the 3 zone rate.

[Lomac]

Originally Posted by UFO

I don't think the buses are smart enough to integrate the door controls with tapping out. I'm pretty sure the doors will continue to be activated by touch/motion like they currently are, that's why its possible to get off without tapping off and get charged the 3 zone rate.

It's easy enough to integrate the door controls with tapping out. However, where the issue would arise is when multiple people are wanting to exit, so each person after the first would still need to tap out anyway. Combining the two techs would likely be a waste of money.

[Mr.HappySilp]

Co-Worker was a beta tester for the compass card system. From what he told me the system seems pretty good. Expect on buses, it takes a few seconds for to scan your card. I could see that having some issue on busy routes like the B-line. Sometimes it wouldn't even register that he tap the card so he had to do it again. So as Lomac suggested if there is a huge line up waiting to get on or off, it could cause some major delays.

[Nlkko]

That's why it's called beta testing.

[Mr.HappySilp]

Originally Posted by Nlkko

That's why it's called beta testing.

It doesn't happen when at the skytrain station though. My guess is since the card system on the bus is remote (most likely using wireless?!) it takes a few seconds for the card reader on the bus to communicate with transit servers so there was a delay.

[shawnly1000]

Originally Posted by tiger_handheld

so i've been out of this thread for a bit but has anyone considered the following scenerio:


Joe takes the bus from metrotown to Dunbar every day.
Now he has a 2 zone bus pass to prove that he's a resident in zone 2 ( i know zones are not numbered but lets assume surrey and east is zone 3 , burnaby/tricities/richmond is zone 2 , vancouver is zone 1).
What is stopping joe from "tapping-in" at Metrotown bus loop at which point translink withdraws $5 (cost of a 3 zone fair) from his account and "tapping out" just prior to 49th at Boundary at which point transit will credit $2.50 back to his account resulting in a 1 zone fair of $2.50.
Then Joe continues to remain on the bus for the rest of the journey.

Loophole?

Confirmed

Way to cheat Translink?s Compass card system discovered - BC | Globalnews.ca

So....new system whose goal/intent is to reduce fare evasion and presumably the need for transit security/police to do manual checks, but we'll see need transit security/police to do fare checks