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Old 07-11-2014, 10:19 PM   #1426
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Old 07-11-2014, 10:49 PM   #1427
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Completely different eras, young players today have plenty of resources online to help improve their game. I'm pretty sure even the higher tier goalies in beer league nowadays could play in the NHL back then haha.
Not to mention completely upgraded and improved training regiment.
Who's to say someone like Gretzky with all the special equipment and training programs couldn't excel in this era? He was never known to be big, or fast, or have a powerful shot. He had a great mind for the game.

Comparing era's won't make any sense. That's like saying Luongo would have a 82 shutout season playing in the 80s.
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Old 07-11-2014, 10:56 PM   #1428
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Not to mention completely upgraded and improved training regiment.
Who's to say someone like Gretzky with all the special equipment and training programs couldn't excel in this era? He was never known to be big, or fast, or have a powerful shot. He had a great mind for the game.

Comparing era's won't make any sense. That's like saying Luongo would have a 82 shutout season playing in the 80s.
There were only 80 games played in the 80's











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Old 07-12-2014, 02:58 AM   #1429
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Not to mention completely upgraded and improved training regiment.
Who's to say someone like Gretzky with all the special equipment and training programs couldn't excel in this era? He was never known to be big, or fast, or have a powerful shot. He had a great mind for the game.

Comparing era's won't make any sense. That's like saying Luongo would have a 82 shutout season playing in the 80s.
true that, gretzky was still getting almost 100 pts a season as a late 30 year old during the dead puck era, a 36 year old mario lemieux scored 35 goals in 43 games in the dead puck era, raw talent is raw talent
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Old 07-12-2014, 03:18 AM   #1430
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Haven't seen Kesler smile for years.
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Old 07-12-2014, 03:46 AM   #1431
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Comparing the Kesler and Schneider trade makes absolutely no sense when they play completely different positions...

When was the last time a goalie got a massive return? Varlamov for a 1st and 2nd? I wouldn't even call that a massive return... goalies never get the roster player + prospect + 1st return

Under the circumstances at the time, 9th overall pick in a deep draft for Schneider was decent. If Horvat reaches his potential and becomes a Bergeron-lite it'll be a great return
The St. Louis Blues on Friday acquired goaltender Ryan Miller and forward Steve Ott from the Buffalo Sabres in a trade for goaltender Jaroslav Halak, forward Chris Stewart, forward prospect William Carrier, a first-round pick in the 2015 NHL Draft, and a conditional draft pick.
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Old 07-12-2014, 07:55 AM   #1432
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The St. Louis Blues on Friday acquired goaltender Ryan Miller and forward Steve Ott from the Buffalo Sabres in a trade for goaltender Jaroslav Halak, forward Chris Stewart, forward prospect William Carrier, a first-round pick in the 2015 NHL Draft, and a conditional draft pick.
Good example but Ryan Miller didn't fetch that return on his own considering Ott was a thrown in the deal lol

My point is; goalies rarely fetch a huge return/the roster player + prospect + 1st rounder formula is what I was trying to say:

Jaroslav Halak for Michal Neuvirth and Rostislav Klesla
Reto Berra for second rounder
Tim Thomas for Dan Ellis
Roberto Luongo for Jacob Markstrom and Shawn Matthias
Viktor Fasth for third rounder and fifth rounder
Bryzgalov for fourth rounder
Ben Scrivens to LA for third rounder
Devan Dubnyk to Nashville for Matt Hendricks
Cory Schneider for the ninth overall pick (Bo Horvat)
Jonathan Bernier for Ben Scrivens, Matt Frattin, second-rounder
Ben Bishop for Cory Conacher, fourth-rounder
Steve Mason for Michael Leighton, third-rounder
Sergei Bobrovsky for second-rounder, two fourth-rounders
Anders Lindback (and Kyle Wilson) for two second-rounders, one third-rounder and Sebastien Caron
Tomas Vokoun for a seventh-rounder
Semyon Varlamov for first-rounder (Filip Forsberg) and second-rounder
Brian Elliott for Craig Anderson
Dwayne Roloson for Ty Wishart
Jaroslav Halak for Lars Eller and Ian Schultz
Kari Lehtonen for Ivan Vishnevskiy and fourth-rounder
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Old 07-12-2014, 09:02 AM   #1433
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I already broke down all the goalie trades in the past 2 decades last season. If people still don't get it now, they will never get it.

9th overall for schneids is a hell of a deal... if bo horvat doesnt pan out is because Canucks cant draft for shit!
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Old 07-12-2014, 09:23 AM   #1434
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true that, gretzky was still getting almost 100 pts a season as a late 30 year old during the dead puck era, a 36 year old mario lemieux scored 35 goals in 43 games in the dead puck era, raw talent is raw talent
By that time, there's already a gretzky rule in place and he was just left untouched most of the time. Lemieux on the other hand is just a monster.
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Old 07-12-2014, 09:25 AM   #1435
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I honestly believe Lemieux is #1 and is Gretzky#2 but too bad different era and his career got shorten. The shit Lemieux does on the ice
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Old 07-12-2014, 09:39 AM   #1436
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Didn't realize Cloutier was a consultant for the Canucks.

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Old 07-12-2014, 09:49 AM   #1437
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Old 07-12-2014, 12:11 PM   #1438
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Good example but Ryan Miller didn't fetch that return on his own considering Ott was a thrown in the deal lol

My point is; goalies rarely fetch a huge return/the roster player + prospect + 1st rounder formula is what I was trying to say:

Jaroslav Halak for Michal Neuvirth and Rostislav Klesla
Reto Berra for second rounder
Tim Thomas for Dan Ellis
Roberto Luongo for Jacob Markstrom and Shawn Matthias
Viktor Fasth for third rounder and fifth rounder
Bryzgalov for fourth rounder
Ben Scrivens to LA for third rounder
Devan Dubnyk to Nashville for Matt Hendricks
Cory Schneider for the ninth overall pick (Bo Horvat)
Jonathan Bernier for Ben Scrivens, Matt Frattin, second-rounder
Ben Bishop for Cory Conacher, fourth-rounder
Steve Mason for Michael Leighton, third-rounder
Sergei Bobrovsky for second-rounder, two fourth-rounders
Anders Lindback (and Kyle Wilson) for two second-rounders, one third-rounder and Sebastien Caron
Tomas Vokoun for a seventh-rounder
Semyon Varlamov for first-rounder (Filip Forsberg) and second-rounder
Brian Elliott for Craig Anderson
Dwayne Roloson for Ty Wishart
Jaroslav Halak for Lars Eller and Ian Schultz
Kari Lehtonen for Ivan Vishnevskiy and fourth-rounder
None of those goalies are as good as scneider who was young and cap friendly. If can't compare cause ott was part of the deal then u can't compare those deals to Schneider cause the goalies aren't similar.
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Old 07-12-2014, 01:29 PM   #1439
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None of those goalies are as good as scneider who was young and cap friendly. If can't compare cause ott was part of the deal then u can't compare those deals to Schneider cause the goalies aren't similar.
You're still not getting the point about goalies not being worth much/won't get a huge return REGARDLESS of how good they are.

Out of the list I posted:

Lehtonen
Halak
Elliot
Anderson
Bobrovsky
Bishop
Bernier

are all/were "young and cap friendly" and are all equal to/better than/average compared to Schneider.......
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Old 07-12-2014, 01:29 PM   #1440
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What did Roy, Hasek, and Mike Vernon get in return for their old teams?

inb4 "different era, and schneider is much younger"

What did Florida get for Luongo in 2006?
inb4 "yesterdays value =/= today's value with the salary cap"

What did Tuuka Rask get for the Leafs?
inb4 "Raycroft won rookie of the year award for the bruins and the leafs desperately needed a goalie"

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Old 07-12-2014, 01:32 PM   #1441
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What did Roy, Hasek, and Mike Vernon get in return for their old teams?
inb4 "none of those goalies are as good as scneider who was young and cap friendly. If can't compare cause schneider then u can't compare roy, hasek, vernon cause the goalies aren't similar"
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Old 07-12-2014, 03:23 PM   #1442
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You're still not getting the point about goalies not being worth much/won't get a huge return REGARDLESS of how good they are.

Out of the list I posted:

Lehtonen
Halak
Elliot
Anderson
Bobrovsky
Bishop
Bernier

are all/were "young and cap friendly" and are all equal to/better than/average compared to Schneider.......
Schneider is one of the top 6 goalies in the league right now...Halak fetched quite a bit when he was traded from MTL to St. Louis. I don't know how you can defend this Mike Gillis trade. Ellers was a coveted prospect back then.

Miller was not as devalued as he was after the playoffs this year.

Also, Lu could be traded. He wasn't an anchor MG proclaimed him to be, because he did get traded, 9 months later after Schneider. So why bother trading Schneider? Schneider also didn't have an NTC, was a #1 at a $4M cap hit.

If you really think Steve Ott was the reason why Buffalo got a first, player, prospect and Miller was just the throw in give your head a shake. Miller = 2015 first rounder. Ott - Jaroslav Halak, forward Chris Stewart, forward prospect William Carrier and a conditional draft pick.

Furthermore, the trade wasn't a trade that needed to be made, which makes it even worse...especially since we are paying a goalie who's older with less upside for the same cap hit right now.
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Old 07-12-2014, 03:44 PM   #1443
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Good example but Ryan Miller didn't fetch that return on his own considering Ott was a thrown in the deal lol

My point is; goalies rarely fetch a huge return/the roster player + prospect + 1st rounder formula is what I was trying to say:

Jaroslav Halak for Michal Neuvirth and Rostislav Klesla
Reto Berra for second rounder
Tim Thomas for Dan Ellis
Roberto Luongo for Jacob Markstrom and Shawn Matthias
Viktor Fasth for third rounder and fifth rounder
Bryzgalov for fourth rounder
Ben Scrivens to LA for third rounder
Devan Dubnyk to Nashville for Matt Hendricks
Cory Schneider for the ninth overall pick (Bo Horvat)
Jonathan Bernier for Ben Scrivens, Matt Frattin, second-rounder
Ben Bishop for Cory Conacher, fourth-rounder
Steve Mason for Michael Leighton, third-rounder
Sergei Bobrovsky for second-rounder, two fourth-rounders
Anders Lindback (and Kyle Wilson) for two second-rounders, one third-rounder and Sebastien Caron
Tomas Vokoun for a seventh-rounder
Semyon Varlamov for first-rounder (Filip Forsberg) and second-rounder
Brian Elliott for Craig Anderson
Dwayne Roloson for Ty Wishart
Jaroslav Halak for Lars Eller and Ian Schultz
Kari Lehtonen for Ivan Vishnevskiy and fourth-rounder
comprehensive list but the biggest difference with Schneider is that he was a prime asset.

can u say the same about those on the list? most of them did not even have the resume or prime value (at the time of trading) that Scheider commanded.
ie Sergei Brobovksy. Yes he won a Vezina, but he had such a shitty span in Philly that it was a crap shoot.

and Luongo lol. his entire fiasco with vancouver puts him in a different realm. plus his contract. (wish the canucks would have traded him for Nazem Kadri. 50/50 hindsight)

i think the Ryan Miller trade may be the closest comparable. But even that should serve as a baseline as he was not even in his prime and a rental.

Gillis still got fleeced on the New Jersey trade
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Old 07-12-2014, 03:45 PM   #1444
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As much as I like Schneider. He hasn't had one full season under his belt yet. He was still playing back up number of games.

He played 97 nhl games before the trade.

As for top 6 goalies in the league.

Price/ quick / rask / lundquist / Rinne

Then you have a group of smith, niemi, Crawford, Howard, ward, bishop, bobrovsky.

Pretty hard to fit schneids in top 6 IMO. Top 10 sure but 6?
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As much as I like Schneider. He hasn't had one full season under his belt yet. He was still playing back up number of games.

He played 97 nhl games before the trade.

As for top 6 goalies in the league.

Price/ quick / rask / lundquist / Rinne

Then you have a group of smith, niemi, Crawford, Howard, ward, bishop, bobrovsky.

Pretty hard to fit schneids in top 6 IMO. Top 10 sure but 6?
I think he's better than Rinne, Smith, Niemi, Crawford, Howard, WARD (especially), bishop and Bobrovsky.
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Old 07-12-2014, 03:51 PM   #1446
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Old 07-12-2014, 04:25 PM   #1447
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Haven't seen Kesler smile for years.
Finally got out of the hockey shithole called Vancouver. Worst fans by far. Notice how happy luongo is on twitter now that he got out of dodge.
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Old 07-12-2014, 04:46 PM   #1448
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Schneider is one of the top 6 goalies in the league right now...Halak fetched quite a bit when he was traded from MTL to St. Louis. I don't know how you can defend this Mike Gillis trade. Ellers was a coveted prospect back then.

Also, Lu could be traded. He wasn't an anchor MG proclaimed him to be, because he did get traded, 9 months later after Schneider. So why bother trading Schneider? Schneider also didn't have an NTC, was a #1 at a $4M cap hit.

If you really think Steve Ott was the reason why Buffalo got a first, player, prospect and Miller was just the throw in give your head a shake. Miller = 2015 first rounder. Ott - Jaroslav Halak, forward Chris Stewart, forward prospect William Carrier and a conditional draft pick.

Furthermore, the trade wasn't a trade that needed to be made, which makes it even worse...especially since we are paying a goalie who's older with less upside for the same cap hit right now.
LOL TOP 6? He was playing backup numbers in Vancouver and still hasn't even played a ONE FULL SEASON as a starter. He was still splitting starts with Brodeur in New Jersey...

At the time Luongo couldn't be traded....why do you think Gillis traded Schneider instead? I'm sure he would've kept Schneider over Luongo (cheaper contract, younger, good if not better) and all the GM's saw that. It's tough to say if that was the reason why Luongo wasn't traded or Gillis' asking price was too high.

Strong reading comprehension. I never said "Steve Ott was the reason why Buffalo got a first, player, prospect and Miller was just the throw in."

Furthermore, the trade had to be made. It's bad cap space/asset management to have 2 goalies costing 10M and a backup making 5M to sit on the bench. With that considered getting a high 9th overall pick in a DEEP draft isn't the best trade but a decent trade; considering goalies do not get much in trades.
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Old 07-12-2014, 04:50 PM   #1449
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comprehensive list but the biggest difference with Schneider is that he was a prime asset.

can u say the same about those on the list? most of them did not even have the resume or prime value (at the time of trading) that Scheider commanded.
ie Sergei Brobovksy. Yes he won a Vezina, but he had such a shitty span in Philly that it was a crap shoot.

Gillis still got fleeced on the New Jersey trade
Wouldn't Luongo be considered a prime asset since he's a legit #1 starting goaltender? And yet he didn't get a massive return lol

Not everyone in that list is a top 5 vezina goaltender. It was just posted as reference that goalies don't fetch much in trades. Out of that list MAYBE Lehtonen, Halak and Varlamov had the same resume/value at the time of the trades as Schneider.

Sure the 9th overall pick didn't/doesn't help at the time but if Horvat reaches his potential it'll be worth Schneider.
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Old 07-12-2014, 04:53 PM   #1450
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Lol, still talking about this a year later?!?!?! I thought we should've gotten a little more as well but c'est la vie! Hopefully Bo Horvat turns out to be a decent NHLer!
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