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03-13-2019, 04:01 PM
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#76 | | Hacked RS to become a mod
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Originally Posted by hud 91gt  Just heard a little intel this could be a loooong process. I take back my guess of Boeing going up in a few days. Crazy | The Max was supposed to save an already troubled Boeing. This could finish them off completely
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03-13-2019, 04:54 PM
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#77 | | I have named my kids VIC and VLS
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It’s also not just the 737 max, this has delayed the debut of the brand new 777 which was suppose to he yesterday I believe
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03-13-2019, 05:06 PM
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#78 | | Hacked RS to become a mod
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Originally Posted by Hondaracer It’s also not just the 737 max, this has delayed the debut of the brand new 777 which was suppose to he yesterday I believe | And they're still $23 billion in the hole on the 787
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03-13-2019, 06:39 PM
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#79 | | My homepage has been set to RS
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Just saw my dads friend today who is an ex Air Canada pilot and I asked him about all of this.
He said that the 1st officer was a noob who only had like 200 hours of flying time. He said the 1st officer was pretty much the same as a kid with his learners license. If there was a problem with the aircraft, that first officer was pretty much useless.
He said that before AC would even entertain his application (30 years ago) he would need 5,000 hours of flying before. He also mentioned that pilots in the last 10 years are HIGHLY needed and that it isn't uncommon for developing countries and China to take pilots that aren't as experienced as they should because they need flight crew. Case in point, having a first officer that only has 200 ish hours of flying, he was utterly surprised by that.
He also said that there were many times when he was flying that the first officer was so useless he felt like he was flying the entire trip himself.
He pointed out that after the Lion air crash that every pilot in the WORLD should have gotten that air directive and should have brushed up on how to turn off that MCAS, he also said that MCAS isn't a new type of system, the captain should have known to shut it off right away. He's thinking that the manual switch didn't work to shut it off, or the pilot and first officer was too scared or in too much shock to even shut it off. He said it can get scary up there and if you don't keep a level head, you can get into a lot of trouble.
Last edited by PeanutButter; 03-13-2019 at 10:15 PM.
Reason: spelling
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03-13-2019, 07:46 PM
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#80 | | y'all better put some respeck on my name
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Regarding MCAS... Quote:
"The CFM International LEAP engines of the 737 MAX have a higher bypass ratio and have a larger nacelle than the engines of previous Boeing 737 models, so the engines are placed higher and further forward in relation to the wing than on previous models.
This destabilizes the aircraft in pitch at higher angles of attack; to deal with this the MCAS flight control augmentation system is fitted to the 737 MAX.
Former Boeing engineers expressed the opinion that a nose down command triggered by a sensor single point of failure is a design flaw if the crew is not prepared, and the FAA was evaluating a fix of the possible flaw and investigating whether the pilots' transition training is adequate."
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03-13-2019, 07:47 PM
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#81 | | RS.net, helping ugly ppl have sex since 2001
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Your dads friend is correct. It is a super simple drill. But you can’t really judge don’t know unless you are there.
If the plane is out of trim it is physically difficult to pull the nose back up. Perhaps the 200 hour wonder (or captain) wasn’t able to physically (together) pull the plane out of this dive. Perhaps the two of them took priority in trying to yank it out of a dive prior to doing the drill. Who knows Every second they didn’t do the drill made it even more difficult to physically maneuver.
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Last edited by hud 91gt; 03-13-2019 at 08:15 PM.
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03-13-2019, 08:13 PM
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#82 | | OMGWTFBBQ is a common word I say everyday
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Once you leave North America pretty much all the big airlines will have some sort of co-pilot program/cadet program that puts 200hr wonders into a wide or narrow body jet. That's just reality. BUT, don't think we're immune here in Canada; Jazz is throwing 200hr pilots in the right seat.
Problem with that is they don't learn the instinctual hands and feet you learn by either spending time in the bush or flying smaller stuff for a bit. Sure they might be encouraged to hand fly a departure or approach from time to time but for the most part the auto pilot is doing everything (because it will fly an ILS better than most humans) and will also be smoother for passenger comfort.
I was talking about this to one of my Captains yesterday. For me personally I am happier and more comfortable tossing a plane around, low level, in shitty weather than I am doing a circling approach on autopilot. And it situations where the plane is doing something weird my first instinct is to mash the autopilot disconnect button (which disables the electric trim as well) and hand fly. My assumption is these 200hr wonders, or people who have solely done big jets, will ride out the auto pilot because that's what they're comfortable with.
One mans biased opinion haha.
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03-13-2019, 09:39 PM
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#83 | | Rs has made me the woman i am today!
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so its like trying to manhandle the plane in vnav mode 
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03-13-2019, 11:07 PM
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#84 | | Willing to sell body for a few minutes on RS
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So it sounds like from Boeing’s point of view, they will say the pilots have inadequate training. But from everybody else’s POV, they will say the plane’s design is flawed?
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03-14-2019, 01:32 AM
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#85 | | Hacked RS to become a mod
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Originally Posted by PeanutButter Just saw my dads friend today who is an ex Air Canada pilot and I asked him about all of this.
He said that the 1st officer was a noob who only had like 200 hours of flying time. He said the 1st officer was pretty much the same as a kid with his learners license. If there was a problem with the aircraft, that first officer was pretty much useless.
He said that before AC would even entertain his application (30 years ago) he would need 5,000 hours of flying before. He also mentioned that pilots in the last 10 years are HIGHLY needed and that it isn't uncommon for developing countries and China to take pilots that aren't as experienced as they should because they need flight crew. Case in point, having a first officer that only has 200 ish hours of flying, he was utterly surprised by that.
He also said that there were many times when he was flying that the first officer was so useless he felt like he was flying the entire trip himself.
He pointed out that after the Lion air crash that every pilot in the WORLD should have gotten that air directive and should have brushed up on how to turn off that MCAS, he also said that MCAS isn't a new type of system, the captain should have known to shut it off right away. He's thinking that the manual switch didn't work to shut it off, or the pilot and first officer was too scared or in too much shock to even shut it off. He said it can get scary up there and if you don't keep a level head, you can get into a lot of trouble. | All hearsay and conjecture
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03-14-2019, 02:44 AM
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#86 | | To me, there is the Internet and there is RS
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Originally Posted by SkinnyPupp The Max was supposed to save an already troubled Boeing. This could finish them off completely | Never going to happen.
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03-14-2019, 04:31 AM
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#87 | | HELP ME PLS!!!
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Agreed, they are financially strong. Their annual reports post pretty good numbers.
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03-14-2019, 06:03 AM
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#88 | | I have named my kids VIC and VLS
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They are right up there with banks etc in the “too big to fail” category
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03-14-2019, 06:11 AM
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#89 | | reads most threads with his pants around his ankles, especially in the Forced Induction forum.
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There just aren't enough pilots from what I heard less and less people wanted to be a pilot . You don't really make much money in the beginning because you have to fly smaller jets to get the hours and to be a pilot there are some pretty strict physically rules.
Maybe coz of the pilots shortage airlines are throwing pilots who needs to training inot jets they shouldn't be piloting?
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03-14-2019, 06:52 AM
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#90 | | RS.net, helping ugly ppl have sex since 2001
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Originally Posted by Gumby So it sounds like from Boeing’s point of view, they will say the pilots have inadequate training. But from everybody else’s POV, they will say the plane’s design is flawed? | I’m rated on the Max. The release of the MCAS system does not change the way I operate the aircraft. It brought awareness to the situation. It is nice to know information, but without that information it doesn’t change much. I have 3-4000 hours in other Boeing aircraft and they were operated the same way.
Potentially there is faults with the system which is putting these airplanes in an undesirable state. But pilots should have adequate training to deal with this. In reality, that is our job. To deal with the situations which can’t be controlled by automation.
Really, I need to state again no one really knows what went wrong. It could be as simple as the auto trim function, or it could be way more complex. Who knows. The planes are grounded, and the best thing about accidents is things usually change for the better in the eyes of safety.
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Last edited by hud 91gt; 03-14-2019 at 01:48 PM.
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03-14-2019, 07:25 AM
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#91 | | I subscribe to the Fight Club ONLY
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Originally Posted by Gumby So it sounds like from Boeing’s point of view, they will say the pilots have inadequate training. But from everybody else’s POV, they will say the plane’s design is flawed? | Armchair engineer/pilot here - sounds like a software update might rectify the MCAS system which self-adjust too easily. Or take that system off completely ... I heard that some pilots were not even aware MCAS was embedded into the autopilot.
I'm buying into BA ... reminds me a bit like the VW diesel fiasco, buy low and give it a year or two and it will bounce back. Only drawback, it is so damn expensive at $370 US.
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03-14-2019, 09:04 AM
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#92 | | My homepage has been set to RS
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Originally Posted by SkinnyPupp All hearsay and conjecture | Of course it is. It's his opinion. Isn't this entire thread hearsay and conjecture?
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03-14-2019, 12:14 PM
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#93 | | My homepage has been set to RS
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Originally Posted by whitev70r Armchair engineer/pilot here - sounds like a software update might rectify the MCAS system which self-adjust too easily. Or take that system off completely ... I heard that some pilots were not even aware MCAS was embedded into the autopilot.
I'm buying into BA ... reminds me a bit like the VW diesel fiasco, buy low and give it a year or two and it will bounce back. Only drawback, it is so damn expensive at $370 US. | A software update was in the works after the Lion Air crash but it was delayed due to the government shutdown affecting the FAA. https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/13/polit...are/index.html Quote:
Boeing announced Monday it had been working on a software fix for the 737 Max aircraft over "the past several months and in the aftermath" of Lion Air Flight 610 that went down in late October over the Java Sea off Indonesia, killing 189 passengers. The process was underway before the Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 crash over the weekend, which killed 157 people and also involved a 737 Max. Both flights crashed minutes into their journeys.
The circumstances of the crashes remain under investigation.
Boeing, which said it was working with the Federal Aviation Administration "on development, planning and certification of the software enhancement," said the fix will be on 737 Max planes no later than April.
But the company's software update had initially been expected in early January, the Journal reported.
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03-14-2019, 12:17 PM
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#94 | | MOD MOD MOD MOD MOD
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Originally Posted by iwantaskyline | I hesitate on trusting anything that CNN puts out... they would do anything to pull together strings to say that it was Trump's fault.
__________________ Quote: | [03-07, 03:26] Yodamaster - The feeling when you quickly insert without hitting the sides | | |
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03-14-2019, 12:38 PM
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#95 | | My homepage has been set to RS
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Originally Posted by nabs I hesitate on trusting anything that CNN puts out... they would do anything to pull together strings to say that it was Trump's fault. | They are literally reporting on what Boeing announced... If you're into Trump's "fake news" rhetoric do some research on your own then.
This took a 5 second google search: https://boeing.mediaroom.com/news-re...ts?item=130402 | |
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03-14-2019, 01:06 PM
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#96 | | MOD MOD MOD MOD MOD
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Originally Posted by iwantaskyline | It does not mention anything to do with the government shut down delaying this process, that's what I was referring to.
__________________ Quote: | [03-07, 03:26] Yodamaster - The feeling when you quickly insert without hitting the sides | | |
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03-14-2019, 01:20 PM
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#97 | | My homepage has been set to RS
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Originally Posted by nabs It does not mention anything to do with the government shut down delaying this process, that's what I was referring to. | Ok so the article is citing US officials as sources regarding that point but let's just say they have no journalistic integrity and it's all fake news... 
Lets put two and two together...Boeing says they were working very closely with the FAA regarding the software update since the Lion Air crash. FAA is part of the US government.
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03-14-2019, 01:54 PM
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#98 | | I Wanna Go Fast!
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Originally Posted by hud 91gt I’m rated on the Max. The release of the MCAS system does not change the way I operate the aircraft. It brought awareness to the situation. It is nice to know information, but without that information it doesn’t change much. I have 3-4000 hours in other Boeing aircraft and they were operated the same way.
Potentially there is faults with the system which is putting these airplanes in an undesirable state. But pilots should have adequate training to deal with this. In reality, that is our job. To deal with the situations which can’t be controlled by automation. | This. For those not in aviation 'Runaway Trim' is a Red Page (must commit to memory) emergency in every aircraft with electrically or hydraulically assisted trim. From what I've read the MCAS is NOT connected exclusively to the AP so simply turning that off will not have the desired effect. Unless there's something else that keeps the MCAS in operation even after killing the trim via switch and/or circuit breaker, the investigation will likely prove this incident to be pilot error in mishandling the emergency. The fact that the emergency is happening with frequency is a different argument altogether.
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03-14-2019, 03:32 PM
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#99 | | OMGWTFBBQ is a common word I say everyday
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Originally Posted by Gumby So it sounds like from Boeing’s point of view, they will say the pilots have inadequate training. But from everybody else’s POV, they will say the plane’s design is flawed? | Most planes have inherent flaws... Some of them deadly. Quote:
Originally Posted by hud 91gt I’m rated on the Max. The release of the MCAS system does not change the way I operate the aircraft. It brought awareness to the situation. It is nice to know information, but without that information it doesn’t change much. I have 3-4000 hours in other Boeing aircraft and they were operated the same way.
Really, I need to state again no one really knows what went wrong. It could be as simple as the auto trim function, or it could be way more complex. Who knows. The planes are grounded, and the best thing about accidents is things usually change for the better in the eyes of safety. | So, uh, I'll shoot you a PM in a few years when I'm ready to apply? haha
Exactly. Everyone is going down the rabbit hole but until a report is released we shouldn't be jumping to conclusions.
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03-14-2019, 05:29 PM
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#100 | | Hacked RS to become a mod
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Originally Posted by PeanutButter Of course it is. It's his opinion. Isn't this entire thread hearsay and conjecture? | ...no? Some people brought that in, but the rest have been trying to use quality sources top get a grip on what's going on with this whole situation.
Adding a post with a bunch of baseless speculation with a touch of nationalist superiority brings down the quality of the thread, even if it's from a pilot.
Compare that post to hud 91's post and you'll see what I mean. hud's is pure quality, and contributes a lot to the thread. It's not as dramatic though so I get it
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