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Go Back   REVscene Automotive Forum > Automotive Chat > REVscene Nation: Beyond The GVRD > Island Off-Topic

Island Off-Topic "Must you always talk about cars?" Not in here.
For other things in life..

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Old 07-06-2004, 01:06 AM   #8051
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Quote:
Originally posted by Supra-Kid


Finally, i would EXTREAMLY suggest full synthetic, cause then all the molecules are engineered to be the same size, sludge doesnt get a chance to group and clog up shit, and it is just better stuff.

Now everything i have said here is biased as in this is what my co-workers at the oil change shop have told me, a pro mechanic might say something different, and he may be right, but i am just saying what i know. [/B]
Ummm no... if you knew anything the rotary engine uses oil as a lubricant on the apex and side seals. Synthetic oil in itself is created of re - refined oil and many additives that will not burn unless subjected to extreamly high heat and harsh enviroments which a rotary does not usually reach clogging the internals of the engine. In some cases synthetic oil has been used in high preformance turbo and race engines where there is no chance of harm to the engine.

http://www.mazdatrix.com/faq/synthetc.htm

Using Synthetic Oils in Rotary Engines

The Rotary engine has an oil injection system that injects small amounts of oil into either the intake tract, carb, or rotor housing (depending on year/model). This is needed to lubricate the various internal seals and surfaces.

The injected oil MUST BURN, and must burn clean. The root answer to the question is that not ALL synthetic oils burn, and not ALLof them burn clean.
The ones that do not burn accumulate until they foul the spark plugs.
The ones that do not burn clean can leave residues of various substances (like ash? plastic? non-organic sand?) that accumulate until the spark plugs foul, or a seal sticks -- could be apex seal, side seal, corner seal, or oil control ring. The normal consequence of a stuck seal is an engine tear down.

In the many years we have been involved in rotary engines, we have NEVER had a problem with GOOD petroleum based oils. They work fine! They are less expensive than synthetics. (We use Castrol 20-50 GTX). They burn clean, etc. etc.

The problem with answering the original question is that it is NOT a simple yes or no. We DO simplify it to a "NO", but that is because we do NOT know whether the specific brand of synthetic the customer has in mind will work. AND, if it does not work, how long will it be before the damage shows up, and how bad will the damage be? Maybe it will take 10,000 miles, maybe 50,000 miles?? Maybe the engine will fail due to something unrelated to the oil, and there won't be enough left to determine why the failure happened.

WE are not willing to take that gamble, are you ?

Then, take a minute to think of WHY you want to use a synthetic. If a rotary engine (properly maintained, oil changes at 3K intervals, etc.) can still be running fine at over 200,000 miles, the engine does not need any more cooling, the gas milage will not be any better, etc. etc. WHY do you want to spend more $$ and gamble on engine and/or spark plug damage? (If you are into the fossil fuel thing, pollution, depleting our resources, etc. then you should not be driving ANY car!)

We are not chemists, and we do not have the time, $$'s, nor inclination to do 100K mile tests of various synthetics in rotary engines.

We DO use synthetics in the transmissions and rear ends - it works fine.



http://roglv.org/FAQ/faq4.html#9

Should I be using synthetic oils in my rotary engine?

NO. Net wisdom preaches that you shouldn't use a synthetic oil in your rotary is because the engine sprays some oil in with the fuel to lubricate the apex seals on the rotors. Synthetic oils do not combust fully, which leaves deposits between the seal and the rotor itself. This buildup prevents the seal from sliding like it should, which leads to premature seal wear and engine failure. Many people will tell you that they use synthetics all the time in their rotary and that it doesn't cause any problems at all. The fact of the matter is that synthetics don't make your engine run faster or better. They cost more, and you really should change them just as often. It is cheaper to run conventional oil. Synthetics are great in the differential and the transmission, just make sure that the differential fluid you use is the proper type or it will cause problems with some types of limited slip differentials. Use the RedLine oil in the transmission and the differential.

If you read through the catalogs from some of the engine tuners out there, like Racing Beat and MazdaTrix, you will see that they either recommend, or are careful not to condemn, the use of synthetics in the engine. While a new engine should always be broken in on a high quality mineral oil (Castrol GTX is the oil of choice according to net wisdom), in the long run, using a high quality synthetic oil, like Redline or Amsoil can help keep temperatures and wear down in the ngine. Some claim that it can also significantly reduce carbon deposits on the rotors housings. Mazda Competition Parts recommends the use of synthetic oils in rotary engines once they are properly broken in.

http://www.teamfc3s.org/main/tips.php#4

Synthetic Oils

As it says in your oh-so-valuable manual, "DO NOT use any Synthetic oils in your engine". But why? you might ask. Well, many reasons. First of all, Mazda had never fully tested the engine with synthetic oil and didn't want to push all the tests the American government throws at cars coming into our country. Secondly, the car injects oil into the engine to help sealing and lubrication. Since oil is injected directly into the combustion chamber, synthetic oil doesn't completely burn away and causes build-up. Thirdly, it supposedly degenerates the oil seals and can cause leaks. I personally used Mobil1 15W50 Synthetic oil and it worked fine but I ultimately got what's called a Tubular Dowel Leak on the side of my engine. Doesn't hurt anything from what I'm told, just makes a mess. All in all, synthetic oil can help if you are running a full, all out mod'd engine with the works and plans to rebuild the engine regularly. Otherwise, a good mineral oil changed very often works just as well.

your opionion means shit here you are talking to a group of individuals that live and breath rotary thank you for taking the time to be a stupid fuck.
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Last edited by CallTransOpt; 07-06-2004 at 01:08 AM.
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Old 07-06-2004, 01:15 AM   #8052
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Ya what he said, jeeze who doesn't know that.....
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Old 07-06-2004, 01:28 AM   #8053
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What about Racing Beat fully endorsing the use of Royal Purple Full Synthetic Motor Oil on thier website?

Royal Purple wrote a fairly big section on thier oils in Rotaries.

http://www.royalpurple.com/techa/faqsa.html#re0

I know is could just be to sell the product, but would Racing Beat really push an oil that would pop a Rotary and potentially risk thier reputation?
After all that, I still haven't touched Sythetic Motor Oils...I use Castrol GTX 10W30
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Old 07-06-2004, 01:34 AM   #8054
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Originally posted by 240dreams
Ya what he said, jeeze who doesn't know that.....
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Old 07-06-2004, 01:40 AM   #8055
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Quote:
Originally posted by jeffraider
I was actually laughing at the idea of a bridge ported engine in his 510 (which he wants for AutoX). Bridge porting is evidently the answer for any application.
No just the answer after a little thinking.

Considering he said the T2 engine I assumed that he wanted Decent power. However EFI can be a real bitch in these types of situations.
So I immeditaly thought Carb to simplify things. Turbo'd or Supercharged Carberated Rotaries, while make serious ammounts of power, are inefficient.
So I thought decent power, carbed, well a Bridge ported 12A with a IDA downdraft set-up could do that.
Or for simplicity and boost, go with a 13B and a boost-preped Weber 48 DCOE side-draft, and a stock S5 manifold & Turbo.

But he already said Fuck NA and fuck Carbed so why am I arguing?
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Old 07-06-2004, 08:26 AM   #8056
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Kidding once again but I guess you dont realize that
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Old 07-06-2004, 10:17 AM   #8057
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ramcon
No just the answer after a little thinking.

Considering he said the T2 engine I assumed that he wanted Decent power. However EFI can be a real bitch in these types of situations.
So I immeditaly thought Carb to simplify things. Turbo'd or Supercharged Carberated Rotaries, while make serious ammounts of power, are inefficient.
So I thought decent power, carbed, well a Bridge ported 12A with a IDA downdraft set-up could do that.
Or for simplicity and boost, go with a 13B and a boost-preped Weber 48 DCOE side-draft, and a stock S5 manifold & Turbo.

But he already said Fuck NA and fuck Carbed so why am I arguing?
Power is not nearly as important as powerband and throttle response in autocross.
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Old 07-06-2004, 10:58 AM   #8058
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10w30 or 20w50 here i come. And Jeff, i have yet to change the oil, thats why i'm trying to find out.
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Old 07-06-2004, 11:22 AM   #8059
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Good stuff man. Make sure it's non-synthetic and you're cool
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Old 07-06-2004, 01:36 PM   #8060
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Quote:
Originally posted by jeffraider
Power is not nearly as important as powerband and throttle response in autocross.
tapps nose.. and the wiring wouldnt be too hard as long as you gank all the shit u need from your donor car.. but thats on aside burner now.. i neeed to sell my car and get a reasonable daily driver for the winter.. maybe a civic lol
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Old 07-06-2004, 04:21 PM   #8061
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Quote:
Originally posted by jeffraider
Power is not nearly as important as powerband and throttle response in autocross.
I 2nd that thought. Bridgeport = teh suck for an autox car. You want throttle response and good power down low, not floor it and wait till 3-4krpm till the power hits. I'd say a small to medium streetport at most if you want your car to be strictly for AutoX.
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Old 07-06-2004, 05:17 PM   #8062
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For sure. PS how hard could wiring be, exactly? It's not like you'd have to ninja the wiring into the 510's wiring, you'd use all the wiring from the T2 swap, bada bing.
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Old 07-06-2004, 05:25 PM   #8063
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yeah the problem lies in pushing the firewall back, modding the x member ect.. wiring is the least of my worries
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Old 07-06-2004, 05:28 PM   #8064
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Look it's Santa! Please pay my debts for christmas
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Old 07-06-2004, 05:44 PM   #8065
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only if u pay mine

ps i have 5 pt harness's for sale in buy sell
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Old 07-07-2004, 12:01 PM   #8066
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Jeffs quite the guru now Actually no port for autocross would be best since enlarging ports move the powerband upwards. Doing a rewire of the TII ecu would not be THAT difficult, just time consuming
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Old 07-07-2004, 01:36 PM   #8067
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I plan on shrinking my ports by 50% so I'll have the best lowend rotary ever at 60 cool hp.
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Old 07-07-2004, 05:41 PM   #8068
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You're a fucking genious
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Old 07-08-2004, 01:28 AM   #8069
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okay, i really didnt know anything about that "no synthetic in a rx-7" didnt know a word, all i was told is sythetic is better for ALL engines, guess i was wrong...
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Old 07-08-2004, 01:51 AM   #8070
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Ya what he said, jeeze who doesn't know that.....
u maybe ?
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ahahahahahaa go Jeffraider
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Old 07-08-2004, 10:43 AM   #8071
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new sythetic is perfectly fine to use for rotarys now more 3rd gen guys are switching over to mobil 1 and noticing a difference.. it was the old stuff that didnt burn wasnt allowed to be used in our cars.
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Old 07-08-2004, 11:26 AM   #8072
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What difference are they noticing exactly?
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Old 07-08-2004, 12:03 PM   #8073
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What difference are they noticing exactly?
The increase of 1-2hp and higher ash content deposited in the rotor face and apex grooves.
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Old 07-08-2004, 12:19 PM   #8074
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so why does the oil have to burn, i could probably figure that out by reading cyrus's huge 40 page essay over there, but i'd rather get a plain answer
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Old 07-08-2004, 12:22 PM   #8075
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rotarys run kinda like a 2 stroke.. they squirt oil into the combustion chamber.. i belive.. bah the only motor thats supposed to burn oil lol
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