DOUBLE Fatal accident on Lions Gate Bridge

[bing]

I'm with Marco on this one. It's unfortunate two guys died but I don't think that should be the impetus for having the lane closed. People need to use more common sense when they drive and people should have a choice to drive in the open middle lane. If they don't feel safe doing the same they can stay in the right lane. I don't need a babysitter and I'll take responsibility for my own risks driving in the middle lane thank you.

I hate people who clog up one lane roads and I think it'll just create more road rage and frustration.

[Marco911]

Originally Posted by Rdk1

just because it's routinely ignored doesn't mean it's right, or legal.... :|

I think if there's one thing the society is lacking right now, it's patience.

I don't always drive at the speed limit myself though, and it kinda is dangerous. especially in richmond

No, I think if there's one thing that society lacks, is being able to think critically. Too many lemmings and sheep that blindly follow "rules."

One major reason that people drive at the speed limit is to avoid traffic fines. If you are in a pack of cars driving at the speed of traffic flow and you are not leading the pack, the chances of getting a speeding ticket is pretty much zero.

[canali]

so i was right 3-5 min to do it...and some morons on the road can't handle such a huge ''time delay''.
lmao

i doubt, marco911, that you'll very often find anyone driving 10kph less than posted, let's be frank fsure you get it on occasion..perhaps they're older or are new)...big deal...be patient... guess on such a rare occasion that that drug deal will be delayed a few moments ..most people do go with the flow of traffic and are above the speed limit vs the other way around.

Originally Posted by Marco911

No, you make a reasonable point. It is much easier to accept because you are dealing with the constraints of the infrastructure. At some point, you know it will be in your favour when there will be 2 lanes both directions.

I still see many drivers tailgate the shit out of people driving the speed limit on the causeway.

[Marco911]

Originally Posted by canali

so i was right 3-5 min to do it...and some morons on the road can't handle such a huge ''time delay''.
lmao

i doubt, marco911, that you'll very often find anyone driving 10kph less than posted, let's be frank fsure you get it on occasion..perhaps they're older or are new)...big deal...be patient... guess on such a rare occasion that that drug deal will be delayed a few moments ..most people do go with the flow of traffic and are above the speed limit vs the other way around.

No, you were wrong. 70,000 vehicles use LGB a day. Let's say that would be 10,000 vehicles/day during off-peak hours. Add an extra 4 mins to their commute and that's 40,000 mins lost / day * 365 days = 14,600,000 mins lost / year. That is the same as 27 life-years lost for every year of sub-optimal traffic flow. 270 life-years lost after a 10 year period. This decision is going to cost society more in wasted time than potential lives saved. North Shore residents are among the most educated and wealthiest in the country. We do not like when things work sub-optimally.

The optimized flow of traffic depends on faster vehicles being able to get around slower vehicles. Hogging the fast lane. Suboptimal. Driving next to another car on a 2 lane road. Suboptimal. Closing the middle lane of a perfectly safe bridge. Suboptimal.

[FerrariEnzo]

Originally Posted by bing

I don't need a babysitter and I'll take responsibility for my own risks driving in the middle lane thank you.
.

this responsibility you speak of... if (not saying it will happen) you were the one that caused an accident that cost the lives of another driver/passenger.. how would you live with yourself knowing well how dangerous it was.. would you accept it your fault and go to jail or would you fight it as if you did no wrong?

Im just saying, taking responsibility is a good thing but when lives are at risk...

[Marco911]

Originally Posted by FerrariEnzo

this responsibility you speak of... if (not saying it will happen) you were the one that caused an accident that cost the lives of another driver/passenger.. how would you live with yourself knowing well how dangerous it was.. would you accept it your fault and go to jail or would you fight it as if you did no wrong?

Im just saying, taking responsibility is a good thing but when lives are at risk...

You must be fucking kidding me. Do you walk around with a life preserver?


The bridge is built with 3 lanes, and they should be utilised at all times. There is no logic behind closing the middle lane at certain hours of the day.

[Sky_High]

Originally Posted by Marco911

The bridge is built with 3 lanes, and they should be utilised at all times.

Nope, the bridge was built with 2 lanes back in the 1930's


but I agree. The Province decided to widen it for a reason...and it should be utilized.

[UFO]

Originally Posted by FerrariEnzo

would you accept it your fault and go to jail or would you fight it as if you did no wrong?

Im just saying, taking responsibility is a good thing but when lives are at risk...

You don't go to jail for causing a death while driving in a legal manner. I'd wager to say that you don't go to jail even if you cause a death while driving like a douche and breaking laws.

Judging by the number who dispute speeding tickets with no basis for challenging them, I would say that there are a good number who would fight it even knowing they are fully in the wrong.

Using the 'logic' that closing off the middle lane during less busy hours is safer, you could apply that to every damn street in the city during the same hours and create a safety bubble everywhere, and even prevent deaths and accidents from happening in the future. Make sense?

[bing]

Originally Posted by FerrariEnzo

this responsibility you speak of... if (not saying it will happen) you were the one that caused an accident that cost the lives of another driver/passenger.. how would you live with yourself knowing well how dangerous it was.. would you accept it your fault and go to jail or would you fight it as if you did no wrong?

Im just saying, taking responsibility is a good thing but when lives are at risk...

This is an appeal to emotion argument, which is a logical fallacy. I try not to make decisions based on fear or 'what ifs'. Accidents can and do happen everywhere. Are we going to start closing lanes on every bridge, highway, and road? Why not just shut the bridge down every night at 9pm? Or require vehicles to come from the factory equipped with speed limiters that prevent us from going faster than the speed limit? Better yet, just stay home.

In the hypothetical situation you presented, I don't want to sound insensitive but I could say that I would eventually recover. If I was charged, I would also let the legal process take its course and also be entitled to the full protection of the law. People who commit murders are entitled, why wouldn't I? It is also a Charter right that I am innocent until proven guilty. Accidents are just that, accidents, unless my driving was a gross departure from the standard of the reasonable person.

[twitchyzero]

Originally Posted by Marco911

What world do you live in? Out in the real world, speed limits are ROUTINELY IGNORED. Traffic often moves 20-30 km/h above the speed limit on many roads, including on LGB. If self-righteous idiots want to drive the speed limit, or lower, fine. Stay in the SLOW lane and let others pass. It won't affect anyone else's commute. If the middle lane is closed, we will all be forced to drive at the speed of the slowest vehicle. That is my point.

maybe on a nice sunny, dry day traffic can move 20kph above limit, but I was referring to weather conditions during when this accident happened. I'd happily drive at limit in those condition in the right lane...and well if it's a stretch of one lane each way...like I said you should've left a few minutes earlier for work.

Originally Posted by Marco911

This decision is going to cost society more in wasted time than potential lives saved. North Shore residents are among the most educated and wealthiest in the country. We do not like when things work sub-optimally.

The optimized flow of traffic depends on faster vehicles being able to get around slower vehicles. Hogging the fast lane. Suboptimal. Driving next to another car on a 2 lane road. Suboptimal. Closing the middle lane of a perfectly safe bridge. Suboptimal.

Flying cars? opitmAL...Cars that give you a back masssage? optimAL Transportation tubes seen in Futurama? optimAL

Elitist much? just buy a helicopter if you are among the wealthiest Canadians...all your snob problems solved.

[spyker]

Originally Posted by twitchyzero

Elitist much? just buy a helicopter if you are among the wealthiest Canadians...all your snob problems solved.

Ya no kidding,what marco fails to realize is,general public safety is alot higher on the priority list vs. catering to a bunch of rich snobs on the northshore.

Since they are so rich,educated and don't like things subpar,perhaps they should pay for a new bridge on their own dime.

[Redlines_Daily]

Originally Posted by Marco911

Imagine being stuck behind some bozo doing the speed limit

Is this guy for real??

In other threads you bitch at people who park in lots after hours, scolding them that they don't have a right to park wherever they want, and they should follow the rules. Now you think you have a divine right to speed, break the rules and put other people at risk, and in a thread where two people just died possibly due to speed. It's drivers that have such a sense of entitlement, like you, that make the roads dangerous. Please stay off our bridge.

[Gridlock]

Sorry, I can't follow the rest of this conversation with the sounds of an elitist prick beaking off about how North Van is the heart and soul of the entire country.

Just as I was nodding along with some of the things you were saying we have to dip back into douche level.

[InvisibleSoul]

Originally Posted by SpuGen

Just saying: Dont click the spoiler if you're going to get offended and start failing my post.
"This is 1 click , 20 seconds of your 20 year life will be wasted. Don't judge me when you DONT KNOW ME!" haah.

Spoiler!

I've been T-Boned before by a car going 80-ish. Full speed. My Car ended up with a huge dent. Totalled, but had there been a passenger, they would've walked away with maybe a broken arm.

It did NOT pancake like that Mazda 6. How fast were these idiots going?

Also. I don't think that passenger made it out in one piece. I've been to the ICBC Yard in Queens Borough. There was a 7 Series that looked just like that. According to one of the Yard security guys, there were still chunks of the passengers in that car. Eugh.

Your comparison is completely irrelevant.

First of all, if you were just t-boned by another vehicle going 80km, the total speed of the impact is 80km. In this case, the cars were headed towards each other when the Mazda6 spun sideways. Assuming the bus was going 60km and the Mazda6 was even just going 80km, the total speed associated with the impact if 140km.

Secondly, were you t-boned by a bus or a vehicle similar in size and weight? It makes it that much more different. I did the physics analysis several pages back. The bus is ten times the weight of the car. Even if the car was going twice as fast as the bus, the bus has 5x more momentum. I'm not 100% sure of this part, but I believe that would mean the car absorbs 5x more of the impact. Bottom line is your car is going to look way worse getting t-boned by a bus versus getting t-boned by a car.

[Lomac]

Originally Posted by Marco911

It's not just the bridge, it's the entire causeway section through Stanley Park also. There is a huge amount of frustration being caught behind a slow driver on LGB,

So deal with it, then. There will always be slow drivers, regardless of what road you're on. Try driving up one of the hills on the Coquihalla when two trucks are driving side by side, blocking both lanes. You think you're losing on time on the Lions Gate Bridge? That is nothing compared to this. 30km/hr up a 4km long, 20* grade hill is a freakin' looooooooong time, especially when the limit is 110.

And as has already been pointed out, the extra lane in the causeway is only open for one direction, so already right there you have one section stuck in a single lane for the entire route.

Don't get me wrong; I think it would be a stupid move to completely shut down the middle lane, but you're making all the wrong arguments (or, at least, saying them in a manner that makes your opinion appear inane).

[UFO]

It's easy as this. Was there any concern about safety by keeping 3 lanes open at all times prior to this incident? Not that I had heard about. Now that we've had a death due to possible irresponsible behaviour, does that make what was once considered safe no longer safe? It doesn't need to get more complicated than that. Illogical knee jerk reactions are annoying, especially when it comes from those who have been trusted to make decisions on behalf of the population.

All this talk about being stuck behind a slow driver in single lane traffic, what speed cars actually drive at on the causeway and bridge deck, are more or less irrelevant.

[Marco911]

Originally Posted by twitchyzero

maybe on a nice sunny, dry day traffic can move 20kph above limit, but I was referring to weather conditions during when this accident happened. I'd happily drive at limit in those condition in the right lane...and well if it's a stretch of one lane each way...like I said you should've left a few minutes earlier for work.

If you stay in the slow lane and don't block faster traffic, I don't have an issue with that. Nobody is pushing for driving anything faster than is reasonable and prudent for the conditions.

[Marco911]

Originally Posted by spyker

Ya no kidding,what marco fails to realize is,general public safety is alot higher on the priority list vs. catering to a bunch of rich snobs on the northshore.

Since they are so rich,educated and don't like things subpar,perhaps they should pay for a new bridge on their own dime.

Really? Are you aware that the highest accident and fatality rate occurs during rush hour? If this is about "general public safety" being the priority, why don't we close the center lane during rush hour and just slow everything down?

[Marco911]

Originally Posted by Redlines_Daily

Is this guy for real??

In other threads you bitch at people who park in lots after hours, scolding them that they don't have a right to park wherever they want, and they should follow the rules. Now you think you have a divine right to speed, break the rules and put other people at risk, and in a thread where two people just died possibly due to speed. It's drivers that have such a sense of entitlement, like you, that make the roads dangerous. Please stay off our bridge.

There is an important difference between the two which you obviously fail to see. Abusing visitor parking affects the convenience of others and shows no consideration for the rights of others. My busting a few speed limit and passing slower traffic does not affect anyone else.

As far as the concept of putting "other people at risk," I completely disagree.
Your argument is akin to me asking you to drive your car less frequently because every time you get behind the wheel, you put other people's lives at risk.

I'd rather drive at a reasonable and prudent speed which keeps my mind alert, which allows me to see more, evaluate potential threats, and react quicker.
In case you haven't noticed, driving the speed limit is mind-numbingly boring. BC drivers are the slowest in the country yet we have twice the accident and fatality rate as drivers in Ontario, which are FAR FAR more "aggressive" drivers than British Columbians.

[Marco911]

Originally Posted by Gridlock

Sorry, I can't follow the rest of this conversation with the sounds of an elitist prick beaking off about how North Van is the heart and soul of the entire country.

Just as I was nodding along with some of the things you were saying we have to dip back into douche level.

How exactly am I being a douche for shooting down the arguments of those who think that economics of time does not matter? Any economist worth his salt would make the exact same calculation of the cost to society of wasting people's time.

Do you think the fact that people who fly First Class who get priority boarding -that means getting ahead of the line so you don't have to wait for the people in coach to stuff their bags in the overhead compartment is douchey? Do you think the fact that "priority" bags are first of the conveyor belt to save a couple of minutes is douchey? It's a basic economic principle that time starts to become more valuable as income rises. How does it make me a douche for pointing that out?

[Marco911]

Originally Posted by Lomac

So deal with it, then. There will always be slow drivers, regardless of what road you're on. Try driving up one of the hills on the Coquihalla when two trucks are driving side by side, blocking both lanes. You think you're losing on time on the Lions Gate Bridge? That is nothing compared to this. 30km/hr up a 4km long, 20* grade hill is a freakin' looooooooong time, especially when the limit is 110.

And as has already been pointed out, the extra lane in the causeway is only open for one direction, so already right there you have one section stuck in a single lane for the entire route.

Don't get me wrong; I think it would be a stupid move to completely shut down the middle lane, but you're making all the wrong arguments (or, at least, saying them in a manner that makes your opinion appear inane).

There is a difference between getting delayed due to real CONSTRAINTS, or unforeseen circumstances vs. being delayed because of inefficient process or some dumb politician decided to impose an artificial constraint for no good reason.

If my arguments are wrong, they'd be easy to refute. Often the truth of the matter is a bitter pill to swallow. I am not running for political office, so I don't exactly have to be diplomatic in how I put forth my points.

[Marco911]

Originally Posted by UFO

All this talk about being stuck behind a slow driver in single lane traffic, what speed cars actually drive at on the causeway and bridge deck, are more or less irrelevant.

That's a good point. When Google finally rolls out their robotic cars and they are all networked with each other, do you think that it would be possible for us to travel faster albeit in a safer manner? So speed really isn't the root cause, is it? The real cause of most accidents is not speed, it is driver error. Driver error could be due to a lack of training, lack of recovery skills, lack of predictive skills and yes, misjudging a safe speed to drive at. A number arbitrarily posted on a sign is a worthwhile guidance, but it does by no means guarantee the optimized outcome.

[Rdk1]

Originally Posted by Marco911

That's a good point. When Google finally rolls out their robotic cars and they are all networked with each other, do you think that it would be possible for us to travel faster albeit in a safer manner? So speed really isn't the root cause, is it? The real cause of most accidents is not speed, it is driver error. Driver error could be due to a lack of training, lack of recovery skills, lack of predictive skills and yes, misjudging a safe speed to drive at. A number arbitrarily posted on a sign is a worthwhile guidance, but it does by no means guarantee the optimized outcome.

I believe everyone should go through Finland's driving test before allowed on the road.

especially Asian females.

[Jegz]

Rest in paradise. Wasn't too close with Jo but condolences goes to his family and friends. Truly a tragic accident to lose your life at such a young age. Drive safe everyone. Life is too precious guys; cherish it.

[a00755836]

Rip jowin and tom. Jowin had the funniest laugh chuckle.