Trudeau cabinet approves Trans Mountain, Line 3 pipelines, rejects Northern Gateway

[Jmac]

Originally Posted by Traum

Seems to me like a child is throwing a temper tantrum after a supervising adult takes her toy away...

This was a key part of Alberta signing on to the National Climate Plan, so I'm not surprised.

[Mr.Money]

to me it looks like Trudeau can't keep his promises and people are having even more regrets voting for him now.


the whole pipeline thing just seals the deals,this is who Canada elected and are paying for it now if nothing changes.

[Tapioca]

Originally Posted by jasonturbo

The duty to consult is not unique to First Nations, it’s a duty to consult with the public. (Natives et. al)

I’m making reference to Trudeau introducing new legislation regarding the approval process for projects where additional consideration is provided to indigenous people.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4525666

This new process basically equates to an “indefinite consultation” model.

The same natives that oppose the pipeline for environmental reasons are on record stating that they wouldn’t be opposed to the Project if it was owned and operated by indigenous people... I guess tanker traffic doesn’t matter the second natives are collecting the cheques

I beg to differ. The duty to consult First Nations is very different from the duty to consult the public.

Here's a manual for federal bureaucrats on how to consult First Nations. It was last revised when the Conservatives were in power: 80 Aboriginal Consultation and Accommodation - Updated Guidelines for Federal Officials to Fulfill the Duty to Consult - March 2011

Some bedtime reading - see section 2 - common law duty for the Crown to consult: 80 Aboriginal Consultation and Accommodation - Updated Guidelines for Federal Officials to Fulfill the Duty to Consult - March 2011

These types of things don't get written unless the courts instruct the government to write them.

I would argue that the Trudeau government introduced that environmental assessment legislation in response to the evolving jurisprudence on Indigenous consultation. Harper wasn't around long enough to see the NEB and his government's revisions to the Canadian Environmental Assessment Act in 2012 get taken to the cleaners by the courts.

You are right about First Nations having a price.

[welfare]

But i thought diversity is our strength.

[twitchyzero]

Originally Posted by Nlkko

Hey let's stay poor together we can live off the land and bike around.

I heard opening up Canadian resources to other markets can lower BC gas prices and build more hospitals though??/...that's what the NDP of Alberta is saying on our local radio channels so it must be true

[Mr.Money]

Originally Posted by twitchyzero

I heard opening up Canadian resources to other markets can lower BC gas prices and build more hospitals though??/...that's what the NDP of Alberta is saying on our local radio channels so it must be true

i wonder what else their crystal ball says,how do they know what kind of funds the government is willing to spend on what %.
that's some sweet words to the sheepeople.

[Lomac]

Originally Posted by Traum

I'm expecting us to get shafted with a shxtty deal, esp with the dairy situation.

Gonna have to watch and make sure I am still buying Canadian milk in the future, even if they are more $$$. But it is really the various dairy products that we have to watch out for since the manufacturer of those products won't tell you were they source their ingridients. If they can replace Canadian milk with the cheap US equivalent, you bet they're gonna do that.

So, funny story about that... A family member used to work for a cheese distributor that was huge back in the 90's locally and they were recently telling me about some of the stuff that would happen. Some of the specialty cheeses they sold in the supermarkets were straight up black market imports from Europe and brought in through, well... let's just say some unsavoury "importer/exporter" types in Quebec.

Company is a former shell of it's once former glory now due to the umbrella company going out of business, but it wouldn't surprise me if that's something that still happens now and again.

[Lomac]

Originally Posted by Hondaracer

politicians are so fucked.

You bought the fucking pipeline, make it fucking happen, jesus christ.

As far as I understand it, the existing pipeline that's currently still running oil through it is unaffected by this ruling. This only impacts the proposed parallel line. So it's not like we're currently completely hooped.

Someone feel free to correct me, though.

[Nlkko]

The court kiboshed it, why are people blaming Trudeau? Isn't the court separate from the government.

[CivicBlues]

not blaming Trudeau for the kibosh, but rather the nationalizaton of the loss if it doesn't through since he purchased the pipeline from Kinder Morgan.

[westopher]

Yep. This should have been cleared before a purchase. Overall I’m not a blind critic of the liberals like so many of the dipshits that use statements like “Justine Trudeau” and “libtards” while sharing memes that suggest if it gets a million shares that Trudeau will step down, but this is a gaffe that will absolutely cost the current government it’s power. Instead of pissing off the environmentalists by making it happen or pissing off the pro oil/pro economy people, they will literally alienate both by slapping one side and fucking it up for the other.

[jasonturbo]

Originally Posted by westopher

Yep. This should have been cleared before a purchase. Overall I’m not a blind critic of the liberals like so many of the dipshits that use statements like “Justine Trudeau” and “libtards” while sharing memes that suggest if it gets a million shares that Trudeau will step down, but this is a gaffe that will absolutely cost the current government it’s power. Instead of pissing off the environmentalists by making it happen or pissing off the pro oil/pro economy people, they will literally alienate both by slapping one side and fucking it up for the other.

They Libs actually negotiated a decent deal on this one, generally O/G assets sell for between 12-15x EBITDA, in this case they bought the existing assets from KMC for approximately 10x EBITDA.

If the Libs were to scrap the expansion and post the existing assets up for sale they would most likely fetch at least 13x EBITDA = 4.5B

If this post gets ten thanks I will buy an E30 M3.

[westopher]

What would they be selling if the pipeline couldn’t be built? Just equipment and such? Land? How would they recoup the losses? Still I don’t think the money being recovered would save face, as people would use the intent, and failure of the deal to criticize from either side.

[Tapioca]

The court ruling didn't shut down the current pipeline so if the federal government were to sell the pipeline, it would be selling the value of the future returns from the existing pipeline in addition to its physical assets.

[jasonturbo]

Originally Posted by westopher

What would they be selling if the pipeline couldn’t be built? Just equipment and such? Land? How would they recoup the losses? Still I don’t think the money being recovered would save face, as people would use the intent, and failure of the deal to criticize from either side.

The Libs spent 4.5B to acquire all Kinder Morgan Canada assets, this includes the original Trans Mountain Pipeline, all existing terminals, all existing consumer/aviation fuel systems, and the Trans Mountain Expansion Project (Line 2). These combined assets generate an annual EBITDA of over $360M, thought the forecast for 2018 was slightly higher at $430M, they are presently trending towards $380M for 2018.

The valuation model typically applied to energy assets is a multiple of EBITDA, normally in the realm of 12-15x EBITDA. However, we have seen a number of instances lately where acquisitions of energy companies and/or assets has been much higher. (IIRC Williams Energy was acquired for >20x EBITDA)

If the Libs were to cancel the Trans Mountain Expansion and sell off the existing revenue generating assets they would most likely see a positive return on their investment. Assuming the trend of $380M EBITDA for 2018 is correct, and they receive the lowest possible multiple for valuation (12x) they would still walk away with $4.560B + whatever revenue was generated during the period of ownership.

(Operating margin is roughly 50%, so assume a total ROI of 200M over the course of a single year)

My guess is they would see a much higher valuation, certainly closer to 15x, resulting in a total sale price of nearly $6B for an ROI of $1.5B (30%) in what could be as little as one year.

[underscore]

Originally Posted by CharlesInCharge

Ive seen video, not sure what youre trying to get at.

You talk about a lowering standard of living, it would have to drop pretty low to get to the level many reserves are at right now.

[Vansterdam]

Originally Posted by jasonturbo

If this post gets ten thanks I will buy an E30 M3.

#10 here

[Manic!]

https://theprovince.com/pmn/business...f-0e969e5edbf0

Trudeau approves the pipeline again. If you want the pipe you will have to vote Trudeau because Scheer will never be able to get it done.

[underscore]

Has jasonturbo bought an E30 M3 yet?

[jasonturbo]

The underlying tragedy is that although the feds approved the Project, and can celebrate their ability to get a pipeline built, they had to do it with taxpayer dollars.

There has been no improvements made to legal or regulatory processes that would reduce risk to future projects of a similar nature, so this is simply a "one and done". Private industry will continue to avoid O&G/mining investment in Canada as a result of a unpredictable outcomes associated with regulatory approvals and/or legal challenges.

Private industry has also been sharply critical of Bill C-69, if the hope of Bill C-69 is to reduce the legal and regulatory risk affecting major projects, the current text falls well short of the intended mark... according to private industry anyway.

Let the protests and legal challenges begin!

[RRxtar]

so we're exactly right back where we were 3-4 years ago, except it will cost taxpayers like $9billion now instead of it being privately financed. and 3 years of opportunity cost down the drain.

[Slifer]

Stupid treehuggers

[whitev70r]

This issue is when you wished Canada operated more like CCP.

Spoiler!

... how many of you saw what I did there?

[GS8]

Originally Posted by RRxtar

so we're exactly right back where we were 3-4 years ago, except it will cost taxpayers like $9billion now instead of it being privately financed. and 3 years of opportunity cost down the drain.

[vitaminG]

Originally Posted by whitev70r

This issue is when you wished Canada operated more like CCP.

Spoiler!

... how many of you saw what I did there?

Trudeau did say he admires their dictatorship