Trudeau cabinet approves Trans Mountain, Line 3 pipelines, rejects Northern Gateway

[jasonturbo]

Originally Posted by stewie

If they used the One-Call tool none of Burnaby's utilities would be located for them. They'd receive the as-built drawings and would have to locate them themselves. Once in a while there will be a call where they have trouble finding a city utility where a worker would have to go out and locate it for them. All private utilities are marked out by their own companies except for a few who subcontract their locators.

Burnaby was doing the work and therefore they are responsible to locate the utilities.

Originally Posted by stewie

A job working adjacent to a jet fuel line would take lots of planning and have inspectors dedicated to that job site to be there every day from start to finish. There's no excuse on their end why they started half way through the job knowing the inspector wasn't there.

I agree, the city of Burnaby should have had an inspector there full time overseeing the work.

Originally Posted by stewie

99% of all utilities are over 3ft deep and aren't given depths because the grade of the ground is changes over time. What they all do give is a measurement from property lines since those rarely ever change. Working beside them they should've been hydro excavating the entire trench to first daylight the pipe and them be able to safely dig around it.

I agree, the city of Burnaby should have daylighted using a vac truck.

Originally Posted by stewie

Not sure if you're talking about the contractors employees having ground disturbance training or Burnaby, but I can guarantee you Burnaby employees do especially the manager who was overseeing that job site. If they didn't understand the marks painted on the ground then I really question the skill level of who they hire and put in leadership positions.

The investigation revealed that nobody form RF Binnie (Burnabys rep) or Cusano had formal ground disturbance training.

Originally Posted by stewie

Contractors hit Burnaby utilities all the time. Some don't even report it. Those ones do their own ghetto patch job when they can and years later when they're discovered there's a shit storm. To answer your question, Kinder Morgan would be directly responsible. If they have the drawings it's their job to find things. For an example none of the companies will do a physical locate unless asked, instead they'll do their due diligence and just send drawings.

Yes I would agree that KMC would be responsible if they hit a Burnaby sewer line, hence why I blame the city of Burnaby for hitting KMC's line.

None of it matters anymore now, Gov of Canada just started the Bombardier-Lavalin Pipeline Company.

[stewie]

Was the work being physically dug out by Burnaby or the contractor?

[welfare]

Originally Posted by CharlesInCharge

Tell me who profits from the millions of barrels of tar sands oil thats exported everyday. Remember nothing in Canada is nationalized.

Well it looks like the Canadian government is nationalizing the pipeline

https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/politi...line-1.3949663

OTTAWA –The federal government is spending $4.5 billion to buy the existing Trans Mountain pipeline, and will pick up the construction of the expansion after the sale is finalized.

The deal will see Canada become the owner of the pipeline and all of Kinder Morgan Canada’s core assets, and in return Kinder Morgan will continue construction on the twinning of the pipeline this summer.

[CharlesInCharge]

Theres no transparency in an occupied country like Canada... if its to be "nationalized" its probably so that the tax payer is publicly billed for future spills.

[pastarocket]

The Trudeau government just spent 4.5 billion of our tax dollars to buy the Trans Mountain pipeline and all of KM's assets in Canada. As per the article, the price tag is lower than KM's stated 7.4 billion project value.

That 2.9 billion difference takes into account construction costs?

Feds to buy Trans Mountain pipeline, Kinder Morgan Canada's core assets for $4.5B - NEWS 1130

[jasonturbo]

Originally Posted by stewie

Was the work being physically dug out by Burnaby or the contractor?

Contractor, AFAIK the City of Burnaby did not have anyone on site, RF Binnie was responsible to act as the representative for the city.

[jasonturbo]

Originally Posted by pastarocket

The Trudeau government just spent 4.5 billion of our tax dollars to buy the Trans Mountain pipeline and all of KM's assets in Canada. As per the article, the price tag is lower than KM's stated 7.4 billion project value.

That 2.9 billion difference takes into account construction costs?

Feds to buy Trans Mountain pipeline, Kinder Morgan Canada's core assets for $4.5B - NEWS 1130

Lol they bought Line 1 and the Project for 4.5B, they will still spend at least another 10B to construct.

It's very hard to rationalize this, tax payers will suffer.

The internal communication that came in this morning:

Message from Steve, Kim and Ian


We are very pleased to share the news that we have found a path forward on the Trans Mountain Expansion Project (TMEP) on which so many of you have been working so hard for so long. Today, Kinder Morgan Canada Limited (KML) announced that the Government of Canada will purchase Trans Mountain and TMEP for C$4.5 billion. KML will also work with the Government of Canada to seek a third party buyer for the Trans Mountain Pipeline system and TMEP through July 22, 2018. We expect to close the transaction late in the third quarter or early in the fourth quarter of 2018, subject to KML shareholder and regulatory approvals.


This is great news for the people of Canada, our customers, and for KMI and KML. Those of you who had been working on TMEP will now be able to carry on, because the Government of Canada has also agreed to fund the resumption of planning and construction work until the transaction closes. The transaction is expected to close in the fourth quarter of 2018.


Further, one of the conditions of the sale is that KMC personnel who work on Trans Mountain, the Puget Pipeline or the TMEP will transfer to the new owner. Other KMC employees will join a new KMI company that will manage the remaining assets: the Cochin pipeline, the Edmonton terminals, and Vancouver Wharves. In short, we expect no reduction in force associated with this transaction. Your supervisor and/or Human Resources will provide more information in the coming weeks on your individual situation.


As to the financial impacts, at KMI we still expect to meet or exceed our 2018 distributable cash flow (DCF) per share target, despite losing the EBITDA associated with the Trans Mountain system. The transaction will also have a positive impact on our consolidated balance sheet. KML will obviously forego a substantial portion of its budgeted EBITDA, but it will receive significant cash proceeds and retain a solid midstream business that we can build upon. More details on the transaction and on its financial impacts for both companies can be found in the press releases posted at www.kindermorgancanadalimited.com and www.kindermorgan.com.


One question you may have is about future growth, given how big TMEP is. We’ve looked hard at that and believe that both companies will be able to find attractive projects or acquisitions to drive solid growth.


Thanks to all who worked strenuously to achieve this successful outcome.

[melloman]

God I hate politics.

The only people I will blame in this entire fiasco is the NDP government.
It's not the activists, it's not the American corporations funding the activists, it's not the Green Party, because at the end of the day... The NDP are the ones to blame here.

If the NDP didn't cause such a fuss over this, it would've eventually blown over and would not turn out the way it has now.

[DragonChi]

Instead of the money going to KML, it will now be owned be the government of Canada?

I recall watching on the CBC that the Canadian government did the same thing for an offshore oil rig in the 90s, which paid off handsomely. Other countries have also done the same thing before.

[MG1]

Yeah, dumb move, but I guess they're gambling on the fact that taxpayers are now involved and people would be more............. nah.

Or, there's something more to this.

Fuck that Ratchet, of a woman, Notley. Just because her province has little to no natural assets in the aesthetically pleasing variety, she's all up in arms. She needs to come here and appreciate what we have here. All them albertans have is Lake Louise and Banff. We have an entire coast of natural beauty and all them mountains...............

I'm no tree hugger and I totally understand the need we have for fossil fuels, but once we have a disaster, it's gonna take a long ass time for things to get back to normal.

Then again, we have allowed open pen farm fishing in our waters knowing full well how detrimental it would be to our wild stocks of salmon. Banned in all other countries......... like W - T - F ?????

Anyway, it is what it is.

Etched into my mind are the times I went up and down the west coast of Vancouver Island on my father's commercial fishing boat. The smell of fresh ocean air and the pristine waters. I imagine it's all full of garbage and toxic waste now. Sad.

[melloman]

Originally Posted by westopher

I'd like to honestly see why people are as passionate on the pro-pipeline side as they are. I can understand people who work in the industry, but what benefit does this give the average Canadian? How many jobs will this provide, short term, and long term? Is this information available from an unbiased source?
I read that the show riverdale actually puts more money into the Canadian economy yearly than this pipeline will. I have not confirmed the truth of that, but if thats true, it doesn't seem like so many people should be this passionate about the project, never mind that pouting child Notley calling it the "lifeblood of the Canadian economy."

Originally it wasn't a big deal. The problem came when the NDP government decided to start slow-playing, or what lots of people are calling blocking, the pipelines construction.

The pipeline was approved on every front, then our provincial government changed and they decided they didn't like the prior governments approvals. As the NDP will state, they are not blocking the pipeline, yet are slow-playing it now because the NDP needs to hand out permits as they are requested. Well as anyone who has dealt with a government project knows, they can take as much time as they want and can delay your project as much as they want, because they're the government.

This completely undermines the private sectors processes. KM went through all the legal government channels and got every bit of the project approved. The minute the NDP decided to start to fight this in court, and then black-ball on the permit side, you lose the confidence of investors. Without that confidence, they will take their money elsewhere, and it will take some time to regain that confidence and bring that money back.

Now to answer your original question. How many jobs will this provide short/long term? Well without foreign investors confidence, we won't be building any mega-projects. Which means the energy industry, which staffs tens of thousands of people won't have big projects to work on. It's not just the jobs from this pipeline.. You need to look at the industry as a whole.

[DragonChi]

Originally Posted by MG1

Yeah, dumb move, but I guess they're gambling on the fact that taxpayers are now involved and people would be more............. nah.

Or, there's something more to this.

Fuck that Ratchet, of a woman, Notley. Just because her province has little to no natural assets in the aesthetically pleasing variety, she's all up in arms. She needs to come here and appreciate what we have here. All them albertans have is Lake Louise and Banff. We have an entire coast of natural beauty and all them mountains...............

I'm no tree hugger and I totally understand the need we have for fossil fuels, but once we have a disaster, it's gonna take a long ass time for things to get back to normal.

Then again, we have allowed open pen farm fishing in our waters knowing full well how detrimental it would be to our wild stocks of salmon. Banned in all other countries......... like W - T - F ?????

Anyway, it is what it is.

Etched into my mind are the times I went up and down the west coast of Vancouver Island on my father's commercial fishing boat. The smell of fresh ocean air and the pristine waters. I imagine it's all full of garbage and toxic waste now. Sad.

It full of Japanese stuff that came from Fukushima. Only on some parts though.

Sometimes I wonder too, if the Albertan government would build a pipeline through Banff, Canmore, Bow river, or North Saskatchewan river. Then they would have an idea of what's at stake, at least a little bit.

[yray]

TRIPLE IT AND WE CAN SELL ALBERTA WATER

[jasonturbo]

Originally Posted by DragonChi

It full of Japanese stuff that came from Fukushima. Only on some parts though.

Sometimes I wonder too, if the Albertan government would build a pipeline through Banff, Canmore, Bow river, or North Saskatchewan river. Then they would have an idea of what's at stake, at least a little bit.

The original pipeline runs right through Jasper Natioanl Park.

They know what’s at stake, they also know that Canada’s landscape has never before been devastated by a catastrophic pipeline failure.

[DragonChi]

That's true and a good point. I hope that Canada will never see a catastrophic pipeline failure as well.

[stewie]

Originally Posted by jasonturbo

Contractor, AFAIK the City of Burnaby did not have anyone on site, RF Binnie was responsible to act as the representative for the city.

Burnaby does not require someone on site to babysit them. If they did, we'd need a lot more employees

RF Binnie was also digging blind without having a worker guide him from the trench or the side of it while digging. I've operated excavators before and when you snag a rock that you can't see you don't keep jerking at it. You pull back and have it hand exposed by a worker.




Going back to Burnaby locating the utilities, I have to disagree with you there. A contractor who places a 1 call ticket is sent everything in a 60-100page pdf with measurements to everything owned underground. It's not the citys job to go to every job site and babysit and the individual services to each house. It's a free call if you want to see the info that would be given to you.
If it is the citys job then I along with many others should be fired for doing my job wrong for the past almost 15 years. I'll put in a good reference for you to replace me if you'd like. You know our policies and procedures better than I do

[ak1to]

Originally Posted by melloman

This completely undermines the private sectors processes. KM went through all the legal government channels and got every bit of the project approved. The minute the NDP decided to start to fight this in court, and then black-ball on the permit side, you lose the confidence of investors. Without that confidence, they will take their money elsewhere, and it will take some time to regain that confidence and bring that money back.

That's the part that has me the most frustrated. If you had the kind of serious capital to invest in a new project; knowing that in Canada a province can cockblock it because it's politically inconvenient that year even after it was formally approved. Why the hell would you ever want to risk your money here?

Even with the purchase of the pipeline, it would still give people a reason to think twice.

[Great68]

Originally Posted by melloman

God I hate politics.

The only people I will blame in this entire fiasco is the NDP government.
It's not the activists, it's not the American corporations funding the activists, it's not the Green Party, because at the end of the day... The NDP are the ones to blame here.

If the NDP didn't cause such a fuss over this, it would've eventually blown over and would not turn out the way it has now.

It's not the green party?

You better believe that the Greens are telling the NDP if they didn't fight this project than they can kiss their coalition government goodbye.

[Ludepower]

smh at the NDP.
Once again they have to destroy what's already in place.
Tolls, msp, an approved pipeline.
This is just wasteful tax paying bureaucracy.

[melloman]

Originally Posted by Great68

It's not the green party?

You better believe that the Greens are telling the NDP if they didn't fight this project than they can kiss their coalition government goodbye.

But at the end of the day, it is still the NDP that made the final decision. They lose all the face, because you don't see the Greens at the podiums making these announcements. I can understand that the Greens would be whispering in the ear of the NDP, but there is no gaurentee that if they don't follow Weavers requests that they'd lose their coalition, because then the Greens lose any power they have.

[underscore]

Originally Posted by MG1

We have an entire coast of natural beauty and all them mountains...............

Most of which is completely inaccessible and rarely seen by anyone. While I agree that we should protect the environment, massive sections of the province could be completely obliterated and almost nobody would ever see it. Every panicked about protecting the beauty of Kitimat, but how many people even go to Kitimat?

[DragonChi]

I have been to Kitimat, and putting tankers through their waters didn't make any sense.

[originalhypa]

Originally Posted by DragonChi

Instead of the money going to KML, it will now be owned be the government of Canada?

Spoiler!

I recall watching on the CBC that the Canadian government did the same thing for an offshore oil rig in the 90s, which paid off handsomely. Other countries have also done the same thing before.

I think this could be quite beneficial for the gov't to nationalize this project. Look at what other countries like China, and Russia are doing with their nationalized resource industries, and we could all share in the profit. Hopefully it's not a pipe dream

Originally Posted by MG1

Spoiler!

Yeah, dumb move, but I guess they're gambling on the fact that taxpayers are now involved and people would be more............. nah.

Or, there's something more to this.

Fuck that Ratchet, of a woman, Notley. Just because her province has little to no natural assets in the aesthetically pleasing variety, she's all up in arms. She needs to come here and appreciate what we have here. All them albertans have is Lake Louise and Banff. We have an entire coast of natural beauty and all them mountains...............

I'm no tree hugger and I totally understand the need we have for fossil fuels, but once we have a disaster, it's gonna take a long ass time for things to get back to normal.

Then again, we have allowed open pen farm fishing in our waters knowing full well how detrimental it would be to our wild stocks of salmon. Banned in all other countries......... like W - T - F ?????

Anyway, it is what it is.

Etched into my mind are the times I went up and down the west coast of Vancouver Island on my father's commercial fishing boat. The smell of fresh ocean air and the pristine waters.

I imagine it's all full of garbage and toxic waste now. Sad.

Have no fear MG1, the coast is still beautiful.
My wife and I had our honeymoon in Clayoquot Sound, and it was amazing to see the western most coast of Canada.

Originally Posted by underscore

Every panicked about protecting the beauty of Kitimat, but how many people even go to Kitimat?

Kitimat is Terrace's retarded half brother. What an absolute shithole that place is, both in the town and the people who inhabit it.

[meme405]

Well congrats to the NDP andall the protestors. You've now fucked us all.

A project that a private company was going to take care of, and take all the risk on, and provide benefits to all residents and tax money to the government is now just another burden on our government.

And given our government's SHIT record at capital projects, I guarantee they will fuck this shit up so badly that we are all going to bleed before the end of this bullshit.

We're all fucked.

[jasonturbo]

Originally Posted by stewie

Going back to Burnaby locating the utilities, I have to disagree with you there. A contractor who places a 1 call ticket is sent everything in a 60-100page pdf with measurements to everything owned underground. It's not the citys job to go to every job site and babysit and the individual services to each house. It's a free call if you want to see the info that would be given to you.
If it is the citys job then I along with many others should be fired for doing my job wrong for the past almost 15 years. I'll put in a good reference for you to replace me if you'd like. You know our policies and procedures better than I do

I would suggest it’s the responsibility of the city to select and engage competent contractors - if they did that there would be no need to babysit.

In this case, had the city engaged a more competent contractor, they probably wouldn’t have grenaded the pipeline.

The fact remains that it’s the ground disturbers responsibly not to cause damage to existing utilities, I’m sure we can agree on that seeing as you’re familiar with people constantly violating the city via line strikes.