The Official 2017 Provincial Election Thread

[donk.]

The provincial election is a trick question.

[RRxtar]

The NDP loves telling everyone at every chance about the things they're going to spend money on, but continue to refuse to even broadly discuss where the money is coming from. Typical NDP.




Are they seriously leading the polls by a good margin or is that just the media running super inaccurate numbers?

[Traum]

Originally Posted by adambomb

So you're suggesting we elect a gov't that will spend a massive amount of taxpayer dollars on services for all citizens while not concerning themselves of how they will recoup the money they've spent?

Isn't that like maxing out a credit card on car parts and ignoring how you will pay back the credit card company but atleast you have a nice looking car that makes you feel good emotionally, makes you feel like you've increased your social status and makes you feel like you are at par with other car enthusiasts on the road?

It is of course extremely important to have a way to fund the government services. At an initial level, that monetary source will be tax dollars. After that, it will be increased fees / taxes. And if that is still not enough, then it'll be debt financing.

I am not an expert on the provincial economy, so my best guess is just exactly that -- a guess. However, 2 things in particular strike me especially hard. BC has a very poor track record of child poverty, and the Ministry of Children and Family Development (MCFD) seems like a ministry that is completely messed up. Our province has been supporting the poorest children very poorly, and I can't shake the impression off that a good chunk of our homeless, drug / OD problem is a result of the poor child and family support. The province's poor mental health support also follows along the same vein.

It isn't like I am one of your bleeding heart social media SJW. It's just that as a pragmatic person, I think the province spending more on this kind of social services can result in both a better outcome for those in need of the service, as well as saving the taxpayers a few bucks in the long run. I know for a fact that the drug and OD crisis we are seeing is extremely taxing on our healthcare system, both in terms of financial and human resources required. If we can tackle the problem earlier and closer to the source, I'd expect to see some savings on the outcome side.

The other issue I have a beef with is education funding. I see education (esp for our children) as hugely important, and I think our current Liberals government has been a very poor steward on that front. It pisses me off every time when Crusty comes out to say they have pump $XXXX million dollars into some education program, how the overall education budget is growing (in absolute dollar terms) or how we can't sell out our children's future because to me, they are all lies. I don't see how the Libs have K-12 education in mind when they knowingly break their own education laws, loses at the Supreme Court, and still provoke our teachers to go on strike. I don't see how the Libs have higher ed in mind when the per capita funding for post secondary students have dropped by 20% since the Libs took office.

As a personal anecdote that I have mentioned quite a few times on various occassions, I was a beneficiary of the former NDP's tuition freeze scheme. I was paying $77 per credit hour for my ugrad degree in 2000, which in today's dollars is ~$105. And yet tuition today starts at $180 per credit hour, with 2nd - 4th year courses, or certain programs being even more expensive than that. I see post secondary students working far more PT hours during the post secondary career, often delaying their diplomas or degrees, but still winding up with higher tuition debts. I see post secondary institutions coming up with a myriad of creative (and sometimes not so desirable) solutions to keep the show running, often at the expense of local / Canadian students. These are not things I want to see! With the higher student debt situation, in particular, their stunted financial growth is indirectly hurting me as a taxpayer!

I have probably allowed this rant to go on for too long, but it really is how I feel. So to quickly answer your analogy, no, I don't think I am asking the province to max out the credit card so that we can have a nice looking Porsche to make me feel better emotionally. At the end of the day, I am still a selfish prick. It's just that I think we can all get to a better place if the province is willing to spend some money on certain much needed areas. Afterall, there has been a draught for 16 years. A little watering for 4 years might not be a bad thing.

[adambomb]

Wouldn't more progressive thinking be something like ensuring that families do not require social services. That families are able to provide themselves without the help of gov't funding? I'm not saying to completely abolish social services but ensure that men and women have gainful employment so they are able to provide for their families. The solution to that in my opinion is a healthy economy.

There will always be parents who are more concerned with their own well being instead of their own children's well being, regardless if they are wealthy or not. The ones who do need services the most are those children without adult guidance, who I feel are the most vulnerable. I feel services should be directed to those children first. I understand when a child turns 18, they are considered an adult and must look out for themselves. It may seem like a young age to cut services for a child but a line needs to be drawn somewhere. It is a never ending cycle that some members of a generation will have less benefits that others. It will never be avoided no matter how much money is invested in the issue. The mental health support may be poor, but it is improving. I feel this way because I work directly with those living with mental illness.

If feel there is a larger percentage of population in BC that look forward to having employment so they can take care of themselves instead waiting for the gov't to solve their problems for them. Those are the people the gov't should be concerned with helping first and the Liberal platform addresses that. With more employment for families, this theoretically should allow services to be directed at the poor children I mentioned.

Our education system, while it may seem lacking is still one of the best in the world. Some aspects of the education system I feel do not benefit young families and are often counter productive. The scheduling of school hours and the amount of time off given to young students is detrimental on parents who do not work in the education system as they must take time off to ensure their children are properly supervised. This results in lost wages on their end whether it be from time off or money spent on additional supervision (babysitting). More funding for schooling should not only be directed at teacher salaries and educational tools. But also increasing the amount of time a student spends on school grounds. Unfortunately, work hours beyond 8am-3pm receives a large push back from teachers, regardless of their wage increases. That is not the Liberals fault. That solely is on the teachers themselves.

We could spend hours going back and forth on these two topics and each of us would have very valid points. In the end, my main concern is reckless spending the NDP plans on doing. This does not ensure my support for their platform. While you may feel there is a drought, there is atleast some growth in this province and I think that should be recognized instead of exponential growth which you seek through the NDP's spending promises.

[Jmac]

Originally Posted by adambomb

NDP vows to immediately replace the Patullo Bridge, Build LRT in Surrey and Skytrain extension along Broadway, while removing all bridge tolls.

NDP vows to make student loans interest free, give a $1000 "congrats, you got a degree!" payment to students and the $400 renters gift.

Let's not forget $10/day daycare, $15 min wage, Double the budget of BC Arts Council. Along with the obvious increases to Teachers and Health Care workers.

I'll let anyone pick and choose which promises they agree with. My question is where does the money come from? Speculation tax and increases taxes on the wealthy? Possible increased BC Hydro and ICBC fees?

I get it that people feel Christy Clark and the BC Liberals are for sale to foreigners and corporations, but for the NDP to make promises and their plan to pay for these promises is just to increase taxes doesn't sit well with me.

Corporations are always looking for taxes breaks as incentives to do business in a particular city. Increasing their taxes will help drive them away. Remember the whole #savebcfilm movement a few years ago? What happened to that? Oh yeah, the gov't gave the film industry a tax break, BC film is now booming again. Except it recently lost the production of the series "Lucifer" to Los Angeles. Why? Because LA gave the series a tax break.

I wish Christy Clark and the BC Liberals weren't the better choice. But unfortunately it seems like they are. again.

The interest on student loans is absolutely ludicrous. 2.5% + Prime on floating, 5% + Prime on fixed (currently 5.2% or 7.7%). 6-month "grace" period still accumulates interest while you attempt to find a job.

It's a complete cash grab on a group that already has the deck stacked against them.

So your idea of a well-running province is handing out tax breaks to the wealthy and corporations while young, skilled individuals are gouged at every turn?

[adambomb]

Would you rather have loan debt with no interest but no employment opportunities to pay it back when you graduate. Or loan debt with interest and an abundant number employment opportunities in your chosen field of study when you graduate?

[Jmac]

Originally Posted by adambomb

Would you rather have loan debt with no interest but no employment opportunities to pay it back when you graduate. Or loan debt with interest and an abundant number employment opportunities in your chosen field of study when you graduate?

The two are mutually-exclusive? Interesting ... Tell me more

[Traum]

To frame it like that as 2 mutually exclusive situations is inappropriate though. Besides, it couldn't be further from the truth.

Ideologically, I don't agree with interest-free student loan. There needs to be a cost to education, if only for the sake of drilling the idea of responsibility into a student's head. What I'd prefer to see is lower tuition fees which results in a smaller overall tuition debt amount.

Additionally, I really disagree with people's fear mongering of mass NDP unemployment, or overplay how the economy is booming under the Liberal leadership. There are elements of truth to both situations, but I do not agree that the reality is as extreme as people purport them to be.

Lastly, the longer I've been in the work force, the less relevant I think it is for someone to work in a field of their initial post-secondary studies. Of course there are jobs that require certifications and stuff that you have to receive education and training on, but a lot of people also change careers, or work in fields that do not directly relate to what they studied.

[adambomb]

You guys are right. For me to express loan debt and employment as mutually exclusive was a poor choice of words.

But I do feel employment opportunity under an NDP govt would be greatly reduced, especially to those in the private sector. While the NDP pushes a platform to help the middle class, I feel the middle class will eventually experience the biggest setbacks from increased taxes on corporations.

Corporations are always looking to make changes to increase their profits. It is the outcome of living in a capitalist soceity. As we've seen before, they may do it by down sizing, moving or completely changing a business structure, which ultimately affects the middle class workers in my opinion.

[nah]

Originally Posted by adambomb

You guys are right. For me to express loan debt and employment as mutually exclusive was a poor choice of words.

But I do feel employment opportunity under an NDP govt would be greatly reduced, especially to those in the private sector. While the NDP pushes a platform to help the middle class, I feel the middle class will eventually experience the biggest setbacks from increased taxes on corporations.

Corporations are always looking to make changes to increase their profits. It is the outcome of living in a capitalist soceity. As we've seen before, they may do it by down sizing, moving or completely changing a business structure, which ultimately affects the middle class workers in my opinion.

What middle class? They're all moving away from the GVRD cause no one can afford to live here anymore. Companies aren't going to setup shop here if there are no skilled workers to employ. Last I checked, there were no Apple or Googles here in Vancouver and you'll see a brain drain from the region.

[zyzzjr]

[Mr.HappySilp]

I wish NDP to be elected, screw up up the BC economy and drives housing price into recession. At least this way we can actually afford to buy/rent in this city.

Jokes aside. For anyone that remember when NPD was elected they basically screw up anyone who own a house and take the economy with it.

There are no better party to vote for. All of them sucks and will screw us up one way or another.

[Tapioca]

Originally Posted by nah

What middle class? They're all moving away from the GVRD cause no one can afford to live here anymore.

If people are moving away from the GVRD, why is it that developers can't build enough shitty vinyl siding condos in places like Langley and Maple Ridge to meet the demand?

Why is it that there are bidding wars for condos in Whalley?

Why is it that for my wife's job, there were over 50 applicants in less than a week?

Why haven't you moved away? Why hasn't RS ceased to exist if middle class people are moving away?

This whole narrative that middle class people are moving away is BS. Sure, there are neighbourhoods in the City of Vancouver that have hollowed out. But people never seem to look at Metro Vancouver as a whole. Look around you. There are more cars, more poeple on buses, more restaurants, more coffee shops than ever before. Rec centres are packed. Parks and campgrounds are full. Daycare spaces are in short supply.

[CivicBlues]

Nobody goes to Vancouver anymore, it's too fucking crowded!

[Mr.HappySilp]

Originally Posted by Tapioca

If people are moving away from the GVRD, why is it that developers can't build enough shitty vinyl siding condos in places like Langley and Maple Ridge to meet the demand?

Why is it that there are bidding wars for condos in Whalley?

Why is it that for my wife's job, there were over 50 applicants in less than a week?

Why haven't you moved away? Why hasn't RS ceased to exist if middle class people are moving away?

This whole narrative that middle class people are moving away is BS. Sure, there are neighbourhoods in the City of Vancouver that have hollowed out. But people never seem to look at Metro Vancouver as a whole. Look around you. There are more cars, more poeple on buses, more restaurants, more coffee shops than ever before. Rec centres are packed. Parks and campgrounds are full. Daycare spaces are in short supply.

A lot of them seems like students (international students). At least 25 to 30% of them are students it seems, some are on temp working visa, some with family etc etc.....

Not sure if you been to any pre-sale but a ton of them seem to be just investors, more specifically foreign investors.

[Traum]

Originally Posted by Mr.HappySilp

A lot of them seems like students (international students). At least 25 to 30% of them are students it seems, some are on temp working visa, some with family etc etc.....

Not sure if you been to any pre-sale but a ton of them seem to be just investors, more specifically foreign investors.

^^ A good example of this is the Metrotown area. A sizable amount of people that I run into seem to be young (college age to late 20's?) Mainland Chinese people. This happens on the streets, at the mall, near any number of the new high rise condos there, etc.

And on this point, the current provincial government is at least partly to blame. As a result of the reduced education funding, post secondary institutions are aggressively attracting international students to make up for the funding shortfall. Against a backdrop of rising Mainland Chinese wealth and their ever present desire to seek a foreign education (& maybe stay there afterwards), we have a perfect storm taking place.

Now, I am not saying international students are the only reason. It is simply one of the more easily identifiable reasons, and the root causes has something to do with the provincial government policy. Change the government and we will see a change in policy, maybe?

[Hondaracer]

Originally Posted by Mr.HappySilp

A lot of them seems like students (international students). At least 25 to 30% of them are students it seems, some are on temp working visa, some with family etc etc.....

Not sure if you been to any pre-sale but a ton of them seem to be just investors, more specifically foreign investors.

As Tapioca lined out though, there are a lot of new businesses constantly opening in and around Vancouver.

Within the last 6 months there have been 10-15 new shops open up in my neighborhood and going out on a Friday night trying to find a seat for even a couple has become a chore because -everywhere- is busy. Literally any hole in the wall that serves a bowl of chips and booze seemingly has a wait.

I'd agree moreso to the desertion if places were closing down or dead, but honestly, East Van, Gas town, Rail town, etc. everywhere is busy as it's ever been imo.

[murd0c]

Originally Posted by Tapioca

If people are moving away from the GVRD, why is it that developers can't build enough shitty vinyl siding condos in places like Langley and Maple Ridge to meet the demand?

Why is it that there are bidding wars for condos in Whalley?

Why is it that for my wife's job, there were over 50 applicants in less than a week?

Why haven't you moved away? Why hasn't RS ceased to exist if middle class people are moving away?

This whole narrative that middle class people are moving away is BS. Sure, there are neighbourhoods in the City of Vancouver that have hollowed out. But people never seem to look at Metro Vancouver as a whole. Look around you. There are more cars, more poeple on buses, more restaurants, more coffee shops than ever before. Rec centres are packed. Parks and campgrounds are full. Daycare spaces are in short supply.

Langley and Maple Ridge are still in the GVRD... What's happening is people are selling their homes in Burnaby/Vancouver and moving out to Langley where they are getting more of the money. I moved out of the GVRD (to Mission) and lots of people are since the housing is that much cheaper.

[CivicBlues]

Yup, I don't know where this so-called exodus is headed. Anywhere downtown that serves half-decent food is packed to the gills on Friday/Saturday night.

I've been saying this a lot - 5 years ago you could turn up at a trendy restaurant Fri/Sat without a reso and be seated reasonably quickly. Now? fuggetabowtit! It's not just Mainlanders either. Apparently all the poor broke white hipsters suddenly have money to spend on eating out again.

Which Political party is gonna put an end to the hipster party? will someone tell me who to vote for? Ahhh!!!!

[6o4__boi]

lol nobody is moving away

if anything, it's getting more fucking crowded

even the nicer, quiet hikes of the past are fucking packed to the brims now (though vanshitty buzz's 25 places you should check out bullshit is partly to blame)

[Tapioca]

Originally Posted by murd0c

Langley and Maple Ridge are still in the GVRD... What's happening is people are selling their homes in Burnaby/Vancouver and moving out to Langley where they are getting more of the money. I moved out of the GVRD (to Mission) and lots of people are since the housing is that much cheaper.

Yeah, that's definitely happening. My point still stands though - people aren't leaving the Lower Mainland like people on the internet say they are.

Originally Posted by CivicBlues

Yup, I don't know where this so-called exodus is headed. Anywhere downtown that serves half-decent food is packed to the gills on Friday/Saturday night.

Which Political party is gonna put an end to the hipster party? will someone tell me who to vote for? Ahhh!!!!

I had to wait in line to get into my local suburban brewery a couple of weekends ago. Yes, a line up at a suburban brewery.

Young people want all of the cultural and financial benefits of globalization, but want protectionism when it comes to housing.

[CivicBlues]

Fuck these younger hipster millennials:

I was living in Vancouver BEFORE it was cool
Eating out in places BEFORE they became cool
Went on Hikes BEFORE hiking was cool

now I'm just not cool

[Traum]

Originally Posted by Tapioca

Yeah, that's definitely happening. My point still stands though - people aren't leaving the Lower Mainland like people on the internet say they are.

Locals are moving further out, into tinier spaces, and stacked up high into the air (ie high rise condos). And then on top of that, more people than ever are moving / immigrating to the city.

That's where you see more people and the higher density.

Make no mistake -- people are getting displaced.

[Traum]

Originally Posted by CivicBlues

Fuck these younger hipster millennials:

I was living in Vancouver BEFORE it was cool
Eating out in places BEFORE they became cool
Went on Hikes BEFORE hiking was cool

now I'm just not cool

Damn that sounds like my story too...

[murd0c]

I think the main thing is people are moving away but still going downtown and spending money and lots of it. I really wonder how its going to look 30 years from now since these younger hipster types seem to be blowing the cash they make rather then saving it like most of our parents did.