BC Minimum Wage Increase - $15

[westopher]

All the same people that talk about how minimum wage earners need to work harder are the same people that complain about how their wages and businesses will suffer. Don't you see the irony in this?
Everyone should work harder to be successful.....except me.
K4rl I don't doubt you work your ass off, but like it or not, your business will need to adapt to growing costs. Everyone else's does as well. You don't get to be immune to it. I'll have to adapt. I'm happy to. If I can't, I'll go wash dishes.

[6o4__boi]

I find it fairly amusing that so many people are freaking out over this.
And the fact that many people who feel strongly against raising minimum wage seem to want some kinda massive economic failure just to say "HAH, told you so!" or have the tendency to bring up worst-case scenarios based entirely on emotions.

The reality is, by the time min wage goes up to 15, the economy will likely have adjusted and it's a huge IF at this point. The way things are going, the Liberals have a better chance of getting back on the pony than minimum wage going up to $15. The power-sharing agreement between the Greens and NDP is pretty much as fragile as fragile can get.

Wouldn't be surprised if by the time minimum wage does go up to $15 people will already have been bitching for a $20 minimum wage for years.

[Bouncing Bettys]

Balancing paychecks and public assistance: How higher wages would strengthen what government can do | Economic Policy Institute

However, for many workers in certain sectors, wages are so low that even those who work full time must rely heavily on government assistance to make ends meet. This suggests that low pay by many employers—facilitated by weakened or inadequate labor standards, such as a low minimum wage and outdated overtime regulations—is placing unwarranted demands on public resources. As corporations achieve extraordinarily high profit levels and executive pay reaches new heights, it is appropriate to question whether employers are effectively passing off a portion of their societal responsibilities on to taxpayers.

Relying on tax-payers to fund social programs to cover the labour costs businesses should be paying, is not a good economic model in the long run. Are the low wage supporters in favour of raising taxes and focusing government funding towards social programs? Raising wages reduces the demands on these programs. I think most people would rather have a say in how their money is spent supporting the businesses they prefer, than to have higher taxes.

[kr4l]

Originally Posted by westopher

All the same people that talk about how minimum wage earners need to work harder are the same people that complain about how their wages and businesses will suffer. Don't you see the irony in this?
Everyone should work harder to be successful.....except me.
K4rl I don't doubt you work your ass off, but like it or not, your business will need to adapt to growing costs. Everyone else's does as well. You don't get to be immune to it. I'll have to adapt. I'm happy to. If I can't, I'll go wash dishes.

I've never said I was immune nor have I stated my business will suffer. I've been at the bottom and have learned from my many many mistakes as a business owner what it takes to succeed (knock on wood)

I'm just saying that consumers and middle class will suffer the most. Obviously as humans, we all adapt and change what we can to survive. I'm just waiting for the "why does my shit cost 30% more' thread to pop up

Edit2: anyways, I'm done with this thread. It's like beating a dead horse over and over with the same points back and forth

[MarkyMark]

That's just the fear mongering talking. The reality is prices will go up a bit, people will get used to it, and life will go on. Nothing is going to triple in price.

Rich people love to talk about how if you tax them too much they'll just leave, because if they once made 10 million a year they sure as hell won't get out of bed for 9.8. That's the same thing, trying to scare people into backing down.

[Rallydrv]

i blame the oil prices for fucking things up, (even though ppb is low) im paying higher prices. that factors into everything. mainly cost of living as gas moves ppl/goods.

(even though inflation is low, it hasn't adjusted into negatives cause price at pump is high)

i can see a $12-13/hr rate achievable ..but not 15

[kr4l]

Originally Posted by MarkyMark

That's just the fear mongering talking. The reality is prices will go up a bit, people will get used to it, and life will go on. Nothing is going to triple in price.

Rich people love to talk about how if you tax them too much they'll just leave, because if they once made 10 million a year they sure as hell won't get out of bed for 9.8. That's the same thing, trying to scare people into backing down.

My bad, I meant 30%

And I'm not trying fear monger anything. This minimum wage thing will go up, if I want it to or not. I'm just stating what I think will happen when it does

And you're right, people will get used to it and life does goes on, because you don't have a choice. It's basically the same thing with the housing market too

Fuck why am I back here posting..

[MG1]

^Because you love RS logic.



You want to say your peace. That's what's so cool about places like RS. You get to hear opinions based on so many perspectives. As long as it doesn't get out of hand like it usually does.

[nah]

I think this region is coming to a boiling point. Just saw on the news yesterday that the Italian Kitchen space on Alberni is having it's rent raised from $35k/month to $100k/month. They're moving of course, but how do people even operate based on those operating costs? That with increased minimum wage, your next dish of spaghetti is going to be $40.

[kr4l]

Originally Posted by nah

I think this region is coming to a boiling point. Just saw on the news yesterday that the Italian Kitchen space on Alberni is having it's rent raised from $35k/month to $100k/month. They're moving of course, but how do people even operate based on those operating costs? That with increased minimum wage, your next dish of spaghetti is going to be $40.

You mean $40 at old spaghetti factory

[MG1]

There are people who would pay that kind of money for spaghetti, but that spaghetti better be damn good and the place better have just as good an ambience. Or, the place get's turned into a night club or something that entices the type of clientele that doesn't care about prices.

[dark0821]

Originally Posted by nah

I think this region is coming to a boiling point. Just saw on the news yesterday that the Italian Kitchen space on Alberni is having it's rent raised from $35k/month to $100k/month. They're moving of course, but how do people even operate based on those operating costs? That with increased minimum wage, your next dish of spaghetti is going to be $40.

the first reaction seeing this was remembering the prices of the nightclub @ trump tower...

lol....

[Blueboy222]

[mikemhg]

I'm laughing at this race to the bottom mentality we seem to carry on this forum as well. $15 dollars? You really think that's the end of the world?

Seattle implemented this a few years back, the same sentiments were said "The restaurant industry will be doomed!!!", did any of these things happen? Nope. Business went up, the unemployment rate in Seattle is 2%. This right-wing rhetoric is always spat forward when we talk about minimum wage increases, or living wages, but statistically the real world implementation of these policies, the effect is positive, rather than negative.

Get over it.

[Digitalis]

Seattle?s minimum wage hike hurting low-level workers, study says | Fox News

[roopi]

Originally Posted by Digitalis

Seattle?s minimum wage hike hurting low-level workers, study says | Fox News

Fox news is now a credible source?

[Presto]

Same study, but a more detailed article:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...helps-workers/

When Seattle officials voted three years ago to incrementally boost the city's minimum wage up to $15 an hour, they'd hoped to improve the lives of low-income workers. Yet according to a major new study that could force economists to reassess past research on the issue, the hike has had the opposite effect.

The city is gradually increasing the hourly minimum to $15 over several years. Already, though, some employers have not been able to afford the increased minimums. They've cut their payrolls, putting off new hiring, reducing hours or letting their workers go, the study found.

The costs to low-wage workers in Seattle outweighed the benefits by a ratio of three to one, according to the study, conducted by a group of economists at the University of Washington who were commissioned by the city. The study, published as a working paper Monday by the National Bureau of Economic Research, has not yet been peer reviewed.

On the whole, the study estimates, the average low-wage worker in the city lost $125 a month because of the hike in the minimum.

The paper's conclusions contradict years of research on the minimum wage. Many past studies, by contrast, have found that the benefits of increases for low-wage workers exceed the costs in terms of reduced employment -- often by a factor of four or five to one.

"This strikes me as a study that is likely to influence people," said David Autor, an economist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology who was not involved in the research. He called the work "very credible" and "sufficiently compelling in its design and statistical power that it can change minds."

Yet the study will not put an end to the dispute. Experts cautioned that the effects of the minimum wage may vary according to the industries dominant in the cities where they are implemented along with overall economic conditions in the country as a whole.

And critics of the research pointed out what they saw as serious shortcomings. In particular, to avoid confusing establishments that were subject to the minimum with those that were not, the authors did not include large employers with locations both inside and outside of Seattle in their calculations. Skeptics argued that omission could explain the unusual results.

"Like, whoa, what? Where did you get this?" asked Ben Zipperer, an economist at the left-leaning Economic Policy Institute (EPI) in Washington.

"My view of the research is that it seems to work," he said. "The minimum wage in general seems to do exactly what it’s intended to do, and that’s to raise wages for low-wage workers, with little negative consequence in terms of job loss."

Economists might not readily dismiss the new study as an outlier, however. The paper published Monday makes use of more detailed data than have been available in past research, drawing on state records of wages and hours for individual employees.

As a result, the paper is likely to upend a debate that has continued among economists, politicians, businesses and labor organizers for decades. In particular, the results could exacerbate divisions among Democrats, who are seeking an economic agenda to counter President Trump's pitches for protectionism, reduced taxes and restrictions on immigration.

Meanwhile, states and cities around the country are continuing to implement increases in the minimum wage. In November, voters in Washington approved an increase in the statewide minimum to $13.50 an hour by 2020. The idea is popular in conservative states as well. In Arizona, for instance, the minimum wage will be $12 an hour in 2020 after voters there cast ballots in favor of a hike.

"If I were a Seattle lawmaker, I would be thinking hard about the $15 an hour phase-in," Autor said.

Economists have long argued that increasing the minimum wage will force some employers to let workers go. In 1994, however, economists David Card and Alan Krueger published research on minimum wages in Pennsylvania and New Jersey that contradicted this theory, motivating dozens of studies into the issue over the coming years.

Card and Krueger conducted a survey of fast-food restaurants in the two states while New Jersey was implementing an increase in the minimum wage. They found that restaurants in New Jersey had, in fact, added more workers to their payrolls more than restaurants in neighboring Pennsylvania, where the minimum wage remained constant.

Since then, economists have brought better data and more sophisticated statistical methods to bear on the question of the minimum wage, but without resolving the debate.

Their studies examined the overall numbers of workers or their annual incomes, but lacked precise information on how much workers were being paid by the hour. As a result, past research might be less reliable because the results might reflect many workers who are not paid low wages, said Jacob Vigdor, an economist at the University of Washington and one of the authors of the new study.

Their research, using detailed records from the state of Washington, addresses that problem.

"That’s really a step beyond what essentially any past studies of the minimum wage have been able to use," said Jeffrey Clemens, an economist at the University of California, San Diego who was not involved in the research.

When the authors of the study took the same approach as Card and Krueger, measuring overall employment in the restaurant industry, they found similar results. The minimum wage did not substantially affect how many people were working in the industry or how many hours they were working.

The data, however, shows that about seven in 10 workers in Seattle restaurants make more than $13 an hour, suggesting that the overall level of employment in the industry might not be a reliable guide to how the minimum wage affects workers with low pay.

Indeed, while employment overall did not change, that was because employers replaced low-paying jobs with high-paying jobs. The number of workers making over $19 an hour increased abruptly, while the number making less than that amount declined, Vigdor and his colleagues found.

Vigdor said that restaurateurs in Seattle -- along with other employers -- responded to the minimum wage by hiring more skilled and experienced workers, who might be able to produce more revenue for their firms in the same amount of time.

That hypothesis has worrisome implications for less skilled workers. While there those with more ability might be paid more, junior workers might be losing an opportunity to work their way up. "Basically, what we’re doing is we’re removing the bottom rung of the ladder," Vigdor said.

There could be another explanation for the results, however: the fact that large employers are not included. It could be that even if employers with only a single location cut payrolls, large firms expanded at the same time, giving low-wage workers other opportunities to earn money.

Other researchers have found that large employers are better able to raise wages in response to changes in the minimum. Liberal economists often argue workers have less bargaining power when negotiating their contracts at larger firms, and that as a result, employees at those companies are often underpaid in the absence of a wage floor.

"I think they underestimate hugely the wage gains, and they overestimate hugely the employment loss," said Michael Reich, an economist at the University of California, Berkeley who was part of a group that published its own study of the minimum wage in Seattle last week.

Reich's study uses more conventional methods in research on the minimum wage, relying on a publicly available federal survey. His group's data did not allow the researchers to distinguish between high- and low-wage workers at a given firm, but they were able to separate large firms' locations in Seattle from those outside the city.

Their results from the University of California accorded with past research. The minimum wage increased wages for workers in the restaurant industry, without reducing employment overall -- in contrast to the findings from the University of Washington.

"Their results are so out of the range," Reich said.

One way of explaining the disagreement could be that small businesses in Seattle have been forced to downsize in response to the increased minimum wage, while larger firms have expanded.

Yet when Vigdor and his colleagues examined the overall number of workers at small firms with a single location, they did not find that employment had decreased. That fact could could suggest that small businesses have responded to the increase not by downsizing but instead by hiring more experienced workers.

There's another explanation for the growth in high-paid jobs and the decrease in lower-paid ones. The authors of the study argue that that's occurring because employers are focusing on high-paid workers and leaving low-paid workers out, but it's possible that something far more positive is happening.

Seattle's economy is booming, and in a booming economy, more workers are likely to get raises or find jobs that pay better, and it may be that phenomenon -- of workers getting raises, promotions or better paying jobs -- that explains the shifts in the labor market the researchers see in Seattle.

Vigdor and his colleagues sought to address this problem, in essence, by constructing an index based on data from other parts of the state of Washington where local economies performed similarly to Seattle's before the increases in the hourly minimum.

Low-wage employment declined in Seattle relative to this benchmark. Even compared to parts of the state with similar economies, there was less low-wage work in Seattle, suggesting that the minimum wage might have forced employers to cut some of those positions.

The method Vigdor's group used to develop this index is on the cutting edge of economic research, but it is not perfect. It is possible that Seattle's economy simply took a different direction at the same time as the minimum wage began to increase -- even compared to economies in other places that seemed similar to Seattle's before the vote.

EPI's Zipperer argued that was the best explanation, given how pronounced the gains were for workers making more than $19 an hour.

"You’re just seeing an independent shift in the Seattle labor market toward higher wage employment," he said, calling the figures for better-paid workers "a red flag."

The broader national economy could have an effect on the results as well. In the past, noted San Diego's Clemens, increases in the minimum wage have occurred when the economy was expanding rapidly and prices are going up. Employers could expect to ask consumers to pay more and to give their workers wages anyway. Increases in the minimum wage might just have been part of the cost of doing business.

Currently, though, inflation is at historically low levels, and the minimum wage in Seattle will be indexed to inflation after it reaches $15 an hour, forcing firms to plan for the long term.

Vigdor agreed that the effects of increasing the minimum wage could differ by time and place.

"The effect of the minimum wage depends on a lot of things. It depends on where you’re starting form. It depends on what kind of economy you’re raising it in," Vigdor said. "There is no one 'the effect of the minimum wage.' "

That means that future research on the question could come to different conclusions. Vigdor said he looks forward to receiving criticisms of his group's paper and suggestions for improving their approach.

"It’s really important to emphasize it’s a work in progress," he said.

[flagella]

Originally Posted by mikemhg

I'm laughing at this race to the bottom mentality we seem to carry on this forum as well. $15 dollars? You really think that's the end of the world?

Seattle implemented this a few years back, the same sentiments were said "The restaurant industry will be doomed!!!", did any of these things happen? Nope. Business went up, the unemployment rate in Seattle is 2%. This right-wing rhetoric is always spat forward when we talk about minimum wage increases, or living wages, but statistically the real world implementation of these policies, the effect is positive, rather than negative.

Get over it.

Did you seriously just compare Seattle with Vancouver? Vancouver isn't even in the same league with Seattle and the sizes of the companies that are based in each city isn't even remotely close. If you knew anything about Vancouver, the employment in this city is largely supported by SMEs (small and medium sized enterprises) which will be most impacted by the rise in minimum wages. If you knew anything about the banking scene in Vancouver, it's the mid-market banking that dominates the banking activities. Goodness, if you use Seattle as a benchmark to study for the impact of higher minimum wage, you are fucking doomed to fail right off the bat. Your post is monumentally stupid, period.

Also, what does the low unemployment of 2% have anything to do with their implementation of higher minimum wage? Is there some sort of credible study you found that links these two? The tech scene is strong in Seattle with behemoth like Amazon substantially increasing employment there. BC's record low unemployment rate is driven by jobs that are much lower in quality.

As usual, a dumb post like this is thanked by other dumbasses. Westopher is like a fucking saint in every thread, boasting about his problem-solving skills and, here in this thread his ability adapt to the new higher minimum wage as a chef. The chef is even willing to wash dishes to survive. If you take a step back and really read that, that's just fucking laughable because if you need to wash dishes to survive as a chef, you should change your career. I'd shake your hand in real life and commend you for your conviction to continue to slave away in the kitchen, saving every penny for your next dream BMW. You know, I think it's pretty cruel to discriminate people by their profession, but certain people should really refrain from commenting in this thread.

Will the rise in minimum wage fuck up this city? Perhaps not, but I expect people to be genuinely concerned about it, especially any SME owners. Stop coming back with shitty empty statements like "adapt or die." Businesses don't need you to tell them to adapt. They will fucking adapt, and it could even come at the cost of minimum wage earners by slashing jobs. After taking into account of the lost jobs, it's difficult to project if the average min. wage will be a net gain or loss.

[sugar_frost69]

so how much does a Taylor and sewing factory machine worker makes?
checking for my mom

[westopher]

Originally Posted by flagella

Did you seriously just compare Seattle with Vancouver? Vancouver isn't even in the same league with Seattle and the sizes of the companies that are based in each city isn't even remotely close. If you knew anything about Vancouver, the employment in this city is largely supported by SMEs (small and medium sized enterprises) which will be most impacted by the rise in minimum wages. If you knew anything about the banking scene in Vancouver, it's the mid-market banking that dominates the banking activities. Goodness, if you use Seattle as a benchmark to study for the impact of higher minimum wage, you are fucking doomed to fail right off the bat. Your post is monumentally stupid, period.

Also, what does the low unemployment of 2% have anything to do with their implementation of higher minimum wage? Is there some sort of credible study you found that links these two? The tech scene is strong in Seattle with behemoth like Amazon substantially increasing employment there. BC's record low unemployment rate is driven by jobs that are much lower in quality.

As usual, a dumb post like this is thanked by other dumbasses. Westopher is like a fucking saint in every thread, boasting about his problem-solving skills and, here in this thread his ability adapt to the new higher minimum wage as a chef. The chef is even willing to wash dishes to survive. If you take a step back and really read that, that's just fucking laughable because if you need to wash dishes to survive as a chef, you should change your career. I'd shake your hand in real life and commend you for your conviction to continue to slave away in the kitchen, saving every penny for your next dream BMW. You know, I think it's pretty cruel to discriminate people by their profession, but certain people should really refrain from commenting in this thread.

Will the rise in minimum wage fuck up this city? Perhaps not, but I expect people to be genuinely concerned about it, especially any SME owners. Stop coming back with shitty empty statements like "adapt or die." Businesses don't need you to tell them to adapt. They will fucking adapt, and it could even come at the cost of minimum wage earners by slashing jobs. After taking into account of the lost jobs, it's difficult to project if the average min. wage will be a net gain or loss.

Are you still pissed off about shovels?
What does my career have to do with my ability to comment on this? I'm doing just fine bud.
If I can't succeed at what I do, that means I will quit and wash dishes for $15 dollars an hour, because that will be the new minimum wage. I'm not talking about "doing dishes to survive at what I do." How fucking dense are you? You could have replaced dishwasher with, barista, superstore stock boy, etc. It has nothing to do with my current line of work, which I do just fine with.
I don't know why I bother even responding to you, since you are one of the most ridiculous people on this forum. After watching you lose your fucking mind daily about shovels being out of stock, its clear you can't really figure shit out.

[flagella]

Originally Posted by westopher

Are you still pissed off about shovels?
What does my career have to do with my ability to comment on this? I'm doing just fine bud.
If I can't succeed at what I do, that means I will quit and wash dishes for $15 dollars an hour, because that will be the new minimum wage. I'm not talking about "doing dishes to survive at what I do." How fucking dense are you? You could have replaced dishwasher with, barista, superstore stock boy, etc. It has nothing to do with my current line of work, which I do just fine with.
I don't know why I bother even responding to you, since you are one of the most ridiculous people on this forum. After watching you lose your fucking mind daily about shovels being out of stock, its clear you can't really figure shit out.

lol, I'm at loss for words. Your every comment should be replied with "no shit, sherlock" given how empty it is. Do you ever read what you type?

"like it or not, your business will need to adapt to growing costs." well, no shit sherlock.

"I'll have to adapt. I'm happy to. If I can't, I'll go wash dishes." well, no shit sherlock, people have to do something to live. I should add though, in this case, you'll need to sell your house too with your dishwashing job.

[westopher]

Wow did you invent that cool saying? If you don't get anything from my posts, just fucking block me. They aren't running out of internet in here. It seems like I have to explain things quite in depth to you for how smart you are.
Also, @15 bucks an hour, I won't even have to sell my place.

[flagella]

Originally Posted by westopher

Wow did you invent that cool saying? If you don't get anything from my posts, just fucking block me. They aren't running out of internet in here. It seems like I have to explain things quite in depth to you for how smart you are.
Also, @15 bucks an hour, I won't even have to sell my place.

What did you exactly explain with your empty comments again?

That's fantastic you don't need to sell. Better thank your wife.

[Sid Vicious]

Originally Posted by Presto

Same study, but a more detailed article:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...helps-workers/

2-3 years isnt really a long enough time to gather enough information to make any meaninginful insights

i mean, this 78 year study showed no correlation between federal min wage hikes and and job losses
http://www.nelp.org/content/uploads/...orrelation.pdf

with inflation and prices increasing independent of the min wage, $15 in 2019 will probably be worth less than what $10 was in 2012 lol

[BIC_BAWS]

Originally Posted by Sid Vicious

2-3 years isnt really a long enough time to gather enough information to make any meaninginful insights

i mean, this 78 year study showed no correlation between federal min wage hikes and and job losses
http://www.nelp.org/content/uploads/...orrelation.pdf

While I'm not disputing the validity of a 78 year study, it should be mentioned that 78 years is a long time. That study would be looking at the long term effects, which like you said, showed no correlation.

So from that, we know that businesses won't be royally fucked for life. But it'll probably still be pretty rough for the short term period (2-3 years in this case, usually 5 years).

I think it's important to recognize that there are very imminent short-term effects to the Vancouver market, since (like Flagella said) we are made up of mostly SMEs.

Side note: Seattle pay is actually a lot better than Vancouver pay, even when you look at relative costs.