BC Minimum Wage Increase - $15

[FerrariEnzo]

Bottom line, people get taxed more so government can get more money...

[jackal]

Originally Posted by inv4zn

^As previously stated, if your business tanks because of an extra $4 an hour you have to pay an employee, you're doing something wrong to begin with.

i just thought i would give a real number to this statement. from dec 1st to dec 15th i paid out 2716.25 employee hours

so on an increase of $4 /hour i'm looking at paying out 10865 more per pay period. 282490 more per year. that's not a small amount

[welfare]

Ahhh. Just what BC needs. More inflation

[westopher]

Originally Posted by jackal

i just thought i would give a real number to this statement. from dec 1st to dec 15th i paid out 2716.25 employee hours

so on an increase of $4 /hour i'm looking at paying out 10865 more per pay period. 282490 more per year. that's not a small amount

Agreed. That’s substantial. What sort of profits are you making, what sort of money do you take home at the end of the year, and what sort of gross income does your business bring in?
That paints the whole picture if people really want to determine if that’s a negative or a positive.
Also, what are your plans to adapt, and what are the tasks that these minimum wage workers are performing?

[minoru_tanaka]

Originally Posted by welfare

Ahhh. Just what BC needs. More inflation

Fight fire with fire right?

[MSREE]

Minimum wage increase would definitely help me as I havent worked in over a year and looking for something small to try and get back into the work force while simultaneously healing. I predict I wont be well enough for at least another 6 months to a year to actively look for full time work.
Cost of living is outrageous here. I live with my hubby and our rent is still relatively low at $800/mo. But if we ever wanted to move? Everything on CG is at least 1K/mo and being a 1 income household that extra $200/mo can go a long way like cover my medication etc.

As for the opinion of people bettering themselves, that really is dependent on the individual entirely. I cant work in some fields due to the my health so I wont be applying for things that are hazardous to my overall well being. As much as I would have loved to go to school to have a career, my family couldnt afford it and now im sick I cant for myself either. Its shitty but its the card that got dealt. So now I have to look for other ways to produce income, maybe learn new skills and create small businesses I can run from home. If I get better, i do want to try and have a family but only if im able to tap into something i love doing that also generates income. For the most part, i think most young adults here in Van will strive to have good careers if they plan on buying a home or just want to keep up with the Vancouver lifestyle.

Tbh, if people are working even menial jobs....thats better than having people in the DTES who drink and do drugs out in the open all day every day and relying on social assistance, dont you think?

[68style]

I watched a presentation recently by an absolutely wonderful older gentleman that's heavily involved in community outreach, there's a staggering number of programs in Vancouver just to help people in disadvantaged situations or from the DTES get work... if you see them on the street begging for money, they are simply not even trying at all to participate in society. Even the casino that's now part of Rogers Arena, as part of its construction agreement with the City of Vancouver, must employ a certain percentage of its staff from the DTES... and there are so many workshops this man sponsors for people to make arts and crafts and other things to build businesses into viable incomes or get into catering companies to learn how to run a business and whatnot.

It's quite impressive actually. It really makes me wonder about these morons who put up tents and squat for free housing and make signs asking for money... there is actually a TONNE of help available that we don't even know about and that the city actively promotes from within into almost every new project that is being constructed in downtown.

I will check the guy's name and organization when I go home and update this post if anyone wants to check it out. I know my eyes were opened as to what's actually being done.

[kr4l]

Originally Posted by jackal

here are my .02 cents real quick.
i'm a small business owner some might say medium business owner.
i currently employ 44 people and run a restaurant.
my wages range from 11.5 up to 17.50

i don't care if min wages went up to 30 an hour but i can promise that the day after all my pricing will scale accordingly. realistically for people earning minimum wage i can see how a bump in pay can help them in certain aspects of their lives. i think its fair to assume that even if minimum wages increased by 20% inflation would claw back a decent portion of that increase.

imo the people that get really hit hard are the people earning in the 15-25/ hour range. it's very unlikely that people in that range will see any significant increase in pay and after price inflation more then likely will be far worse off then before a large min wage hike. min wage needs to rise but imo it needs to be gradual. i would also have little issue with tying min wage to inflation. (also assuming if we ever went into recession then min wage has the potential to drop) although i'm no economist, maybe this is a recipe for long term hyper inflation.

oh one other point. i would really like the training wage to come back. not 500 hours but realistically it takes probably 100-150 hours of me having to overstaff in order to get someone up to speed and not need help constantly. the number of dollars wasted training young or inexperienced employees in my line of work is honestly mind boggling.

Finally, someone who understands me *hugs*

[Infiniti]

Originally Posted by 68style

I watched a presentation recently by an absolutely wonderful older gentleman that's heavily involved in community outreach, there's a staggering number of programs in Vancouver just to help people in disadvantaged situations or from the DTES get work... if you see them on the street begging for money, they are simply not even trying at all to participate in society. Even the casino that's now part of Rogers Arena, as part of its construction agreement with the City of Vancouver, must employ a certain percentage of its staff from the DTES... and there are so many workshops this man sponsors for people to make arts and crafts and other things to build businesses into viable incomes or get into catering companies to learn how to run a business and whatnot.

It's quite impressive actually. It really makes me wonder about these morons who put up tents and squat for free housing and make signs asking for money... there is actually a TONNE of help available that we don't even know about and that the city actively promotes from within into almost every new project that is being constructed in downtown.

I will check the guy's name and organization when I go home and update this post if anyone wants to check it out. I know my eyes were opened as to what's actually being done.

Not to discount the programs this particular gentleman is referring to, but the vast majority of people in the DTES are not your average "down on your luck" types. These are individuals with severe addictions and/or mental health problems.
While I applaud the ongoing efforts that are taking place, and the involvement of individuals such as the guy you mentioned, the concept of reintegration for many DTES persons has to be approached in a different manner. Addiction and mental health issues are severe impediments to an individual's ability at becoming a functional member of society. One needs to overcome their addiction before they are fit enough to undertake any regular type of commitment to employment. One needs to stabilize their mental health symptoms before they can properly function in some type of workplace environment.
I suppose the bigger questions I have are: is there anyway to actually stem the tide of the so-called DTES epidemic? Bear in mind, everyday new people join the ranks of addict/homeless in the DTES. These individuals are people from the GVRD, greater BC, and the rest of Canada. The scale of this problem is way beyond anything we already have in place. In order to properly address this problem would require a significant boost to resources, which I doubt the public is ready to support.
Second, clearly the "war on drugs" has failed. Just look to our neighbours to the south. Should we legalize everything? I am no expert, but drugs aren't going away. Its a losing battle, one for which we have no answer. This is evident as the problem has grown, and has not subsided at all.

[MSREE]

Originally Posted by 68style

I watched a presentation recently by an absolutely wonderful older gentleman that's heavily involved in community outreach, there's a staggering number of programs in Vancouver just to help people in disadvantaged situations or from the DTES get work... if you see them on the street begging for money, they are simply not even trying at all to participate in society. Even the casino that's now part of Rogers Arena, as part of its construction agreement with the City of Vancouver, must employ a certain percentage of its staff from the DTES... and there are so many workshops this man sponsors for people to make arts and crafts and other things to build businesses into viable incomes or get into catering companies to learn how to run a business and whatnot.

It's quite impressive actually. It really makes me wonder about these morons who put up tents and squat for free housing and make signs asking for money... there is actually a TONNE of help available that we don't even know about and that the city actively promotes from within into almost every new project that is being constructed in downtown.

Yep I can confirm that. I ran an office dt for temp work. We paid $13 base and if you were a skilled trades worker it was $15+. All they needed to do was show up in long pants and work and theyd get paid same day at 3pm by cheque.
Most people living in DTES rely on social assistance. So on welfare day, temp agencies and construction takes a huge hit the whole week. Welfare day is also the day of the month where the most reported overdoses/drug related deaths happen. There is work available for those who are willing, but for many drugs/alcohol take priority. Even for the shelters in DT, they require no drug paraphernalia and you cant be high/drunk....but many will choose to sleep on the street. Alot of temp agencies do heavy marketing too, so they provide extras to keep people coming back. Some even do deals with pubs, like get a free meal if you work consecutively for a week, things like that. There are a ton of people who are able to work, but in DTES Welfare week is known as "Mardi Gras" .... Everybody just gets blitzed cuz they can on the govts $.

[BIC_BAWS]

Originally Posted by jackal

i currently employ 44 people and run a restaurant.
my wages range from 11.5 up to 17.50

Average pay = $14.50

Originally Posted by jackal

i just thought i would give a real number to this statement. from dec 1st to dec 15th i paid out 2716.25 employee hours
so on an increase of $4 /hour i'm looking at paying out 10865 more per pay period. 282490 more per year. that's not a small amount

Finding the average pay cheque paid per employee:
2716.25 monthly hours / 44 employees = 61.73hrs/employee
61.73hrs/employee x $14.50 avg hourly rate = $895.09

If you were to find how many more employees he could pay for with that increase:
$10,865 / $895.09 = 12.14 more employees

If we assume jackal can only afford the increase of $10,865/mo, and would have otherwise contributed that by hiring more, that’s 12 employees per pay period that he could have hired, but now would not as that money has been given to the 44 existing employees.

Originally Posted by MSREE

Minimum wage increase would definitely help me as I havent worked in over a year and looking for something small to try and get back into the work force while simultaneously healing. I predict I wont be well enough for at least another 6 months to a year to actively look for full time work.

Try contract work, they usually have low requirements and it’s a good way to get back into the workforce.

Originally Posted by MSREE

Tbh, if people are working even menial jobs....thats better than having people in the DTES who drink and do drugs out in the open all day every day and relying on social assistance, dont you think?

Those menial jobs are readily available, like 68Style said, “if you see them on the street begging for money, they are simply not even trying at all to participate in society”. Of course they have to sort out their addictions and issues first.

BUT do you really think employers would be incentivized to hire people when the minimum wage goes up? By the above scenario calculations, it could have paid for 12 more employees, not to including the additional training costs (below) that comes associated with hiring (while not including all hiring costs).

Originally Posted by jackal

realistically it takes probably 100-150 hours of me having to overstaff in order to get someone up to speed.

125 avg overstaff hours * $14.50 avg hourly rate = $1,812.50 per new hire

Edit: If we were thinking of a business or white collared industry, I suspect the effect of a min wage increase would be that companies would work their existing employees harder and contract the work out more often. Yay! Contracted work = more pay for sub-contractors! Nope. That's only if you assume that these sub-contractors are only doing 1 contract and can take on the job themselves without additional resources. This increase would effectively move the labour cost for the company onto the sub-contractor, while cost of work for the company would be the same as before. Does this get people more jobs? Would the subcontractors start a company to hire more people to take on the jobs? Unlikely.

[freakshow]

I want my son to start working ASAP to learn about responsibility. There is no way he is going to be worth $15 an hour when he is 15 years old, or whatever the minimum working age is.. All the minimum wage law does is prevent him from gaining experience sooner than he otherwise could have.

[quasi]

Originally Posted by BIC_BAWS

125 avg overstaff hours * $14.50 avg hourly rate = $1,812.50 per new hire

It's even more then that, I know our burdens where I work (CPP, UIC, WCB, Vac & Stat Pay) are 22.08% (obviously varies company to company) but you have to tack something on.

[Hondaracer]

Drive through the DTES on a hot summer day and you won’t feel sorry for most of them anymore. Especially the natives down there.

[Rallydrv]

with wage increases here and corporate tax cuts in the states /fear of NAFTA. more incentive for manufacturing jobs to move shops to US. Already quite a few medium size manufacturing business are being poached by various US states giving more incentive to move.

[Traum]

Originally Posted by quasi

It's even more then that, I know our burdens where I work (CPP, UIC, WCB, Vac & Stat Pay) are 22.08% (obviously varies company to company) but you have to tack something on.

^^ ~20 - 25%-ish sounds about right for additional costs on top of salaries.

Originally Posted by Rallydrv

with wage increases here and corporate tax cuts in the states /fear of NAFTA. more incentive for manufacturing jobs to move shops to US. Already quite a few medium size manufacturing business are being poached by various US states giving more incentive to move.

Personally, I wouldn't expect the US tax cuts to be too long lived. As soon as Trump gets replaced in the next election by whichever Democrat that won the primaries, I'd expect the new gov to at least revise that back to a higher tax rate, although not necessarily what the old rate once was. The tax cut is costing the US gov big $$$$$ and everybody knows it. For any seasoned veteran business person to not see through that seems a bit odd.

[Mr.HappySilp]

All these talk about increasing min wage people have then though about how this would push more business to use AI and robots to take over the current job. Don't believe me. Just look at McDonalds, Superstore, Shoppers, Price smart, A&W etc etc. A lot of cashier are replace by self-serve check out. I see so many cashier are replace already and as AI gets better and better more jobs are going to replace. Even office jobs are being replace. Accountant, Lawyers, Financial advisor, Investment advisor, Real estate, marketing advisor etc etc.

As AI gets better and better it will be able to perform better the human for min wage jobs and gets cheaper as well. So the big crop will use more and more AI while the medium business still start using AI as well once the price is cheap enough. So you have small business who can't afford AI to increase production while paying more. Starting small business will only get harder and harder.

[westopher]

Minimum wage is not the difference in AI taking over. 0 dollars salary will be lower than whatever minimum wage is. Long term investment in automation always makes sense from a profitability perspective when it comes to simple shit like taking cash for barcode/menu items

[Mr.HappySilp]

^^ I guess I am trying to say is that as min wage raises it makes more sense for big crop to apply more AI to help reduce their button line to save cost in the long run thus causing more min wage jobs to be replace at a faster rate.

[westopher]

I think most of the companies doing it are firing on all cylinders with it already for the most part, but I see what you are getting at.
We will need to look at living wages for the unemployed if we don’t want to be a third world country for when that happens, so sorry to be the bearer of bad news for those that are afraid of taxes, and covering for poor people. Everything will only get worse from here. Time for massive tax breaks for small businesses that employ multiple people, and time to fuck corporations with taxes that push for automation.

[kr4l]

Originally Posted by Mr.HappySilp

All these talk about increasing min wage people have then though about how this would push more business to use AI and robots to take over the current job. Don't believe me. Just look at McDonalds, Superstore, Shoppers, Price smart, A&W etc etc. A lot of cashier are replace by self-serve check out. I see so many cashier are replace already and as AI gets better and better more jobs are going to replace. Even office jobs are being replace. Accountant, Lawyers, Financial advisor, Investment advisor, Real estate, marketing advisor etc etc.

As AI gets better and better it will be able to perform better the human for min wage jobs and gets cheaper as well. So the big crop will use more and more AI while the medium business still start using AI as well once the price is cheap enough. So you have small business who can't afford AI to increase production while paying more. Starting small business will only get harder and harder.

What I don’t understand is why are you guys still relating a minimum wage hike to multi million dollar businesses? They don’t give a shit about the minimum wage because it will not effect them.

Open your minds a little. The small businesses out there that will be effected. You know, the people that actually have to work there ass off

[welfare]

Originally Posted by MSREE

Yep I can confirm that. I ran an office dt for temp work. We paid $13 base and if you were a skilled trades worker it was $15+. All they needed to do was show up in long pants and work and theyd get paid same day at 3pm by cheque.
Most people living in DTES rely on social assistance. So on welfare day, temp agencies and construction takes a huge hit the whole week. Welfare day is also the day of the month where the most reported overdoses/drug related deaths happen. There is work available for those who are willing, but for many drugs/alcohol take priority. Even for the shelters in DT, they require no drug paraphernalia and you cant be high/drunk....but many will choose to sleep on the street. Alot of temp agencies do heavy marketing too, so they provide extras to keep people coming back. Some even do deals with pubs, like get a free meal if you work consecutively for a week, things like that. There are a ton of people who are able to work, but in DTES Welfare week is known as "Mardi Gras" .... Everybody just gets blitzed cuz they can on the govts $.

Huh. Almost as if these dependency programs perpetuate the problem.

Originally Posted by westopher

I think most of the companies doing it are firing on all cylinders with it already for the most part, but I see what you are getting at.
We will need to look at living wages for the unemployed if we don’t want to be a third world country for when that happens, so sorry to be the bearer of bad news for those that are afraid of taxes, and covering for poor people. Everything will only get worse from here. Time for massive tax breaks for small businesses that employ multiple people, and time to fuck corporations with taxes that push for automation.

So you have no problem with the government stealing money to dole out to those who choose not to work, so long as they're stealing it from companies that employ tens to hundreds of thousands of employees?

Jobs become obsolete, and other jobs are created. That's the way it's always been. The market is in constant flux.
Like I've said before, Canada is on course to hit a massive labor shortage, so the idea that the jobs are disappearing has no backing.

And what is with this animosity I'm seeing everywhere lately about CEO's and how many millions they earn? Like that's some Injustice?
And why don't I see the same animosity towards professional athletes who earn millions? They don't employ tens of thousands of people.
You wanna make millions? Become a CEO. It really is that simple. Canada ranks third in the world for income mobility. I am so tired of hearing this inequality nonsense. If you can't do it here, you either didn't want it enough, or you weren't smart enough. That's the cold truth.
There is a huge difference between equal treatment and forced egalitarianism.

Originally Posted by Rallydrv

with wage increases here and corporate tax cuts in the states /fear of NAFTA. more incentive for manufacturing jobs to move shops to US. Already quite a few medium size manufacturing business are being poached by various US states giving more incentive to move.

Exactly. Canada is moving in the complete opposite direction with it's number one trading partner. Small fish in a big pond.

[Mr.HappySilp]

Originally Posted by kr4l

What I don’t understand is why are you guys still relating a minimum wage hike to multi million dollar businesses? They don’t give a shit about the minimum wage because it will not effect them.

Open your minds a little. The small businesses out there that will be effected. You know, the people that actually have to work there ass off

Maybe you should reread what I wrote. Did I disagree about raising min wage? I was merely pointing out with min wage increase more and more big crop will be looking at AI to replace as many min wage workers as possible. Small and medium size business don't have the financial backing to do that so they end paying more to their workers.

LOL if multi million dollar business don't care about min wage they wouldn't be investing more into AI and having them take over. Look around some of the major big crop chain such as Superstore, McDonalds, Wal-mart, Aamazon, Rogers, Telus etc etc and see what they have done to cut back on min wage workers with AI.

Big Crop hires a lot more people than your medium or small business. A lot more. Is a lose lose situation. Don't raise min wage and people complain yet jobs might be replace by AI later. Raise min wage and a lot of people lose their job faster since it will push big crop to invest more in AI. Those who can keep their min wage job will make more money but for how long?

I don't have the answer on how we can solve this issue. Seems like a lot of jobs are replace already by AI and robots already. I read an article somewhere that predicted in the next 20 years half of the jobs globally will be replace by AI and robots. So what's going to happen? Should those who lost their jobs just starve to death, how will the gov react to it? More EI?More low income assistant? universal wage? who will pay for universal wage? More tax to crop to pay for universal wage? I think the gov or society needs to look and plan for the future since this model of min wage isn't working and is bound to fail in the future.

[kr4l]

Originally Posted by Mr.HappySilp

Maybe you should reread what I wrote. Did I disagree about raising min wage? I was merely pointing out with min wage increase more and more big crop will be looking at AI to replace as many min wage workers as possible. Small and medium size business don't have the financial backing to do that so they end paying more to their workers.

LOL if multi million dollar business don't care about min wage they wouldn't be investing more into AI and having them take over. Look around some of the major big crop chain such as Superstore, McDonalds, Wal-mart, Aamazon, Rogers, Telus etc etc and see what they have done to cut back on min wage workers with AI.

Big Crop hires a lot more people than your medium or small business. A lot more. Is a lose lose situation. Don't raise min wage and people complain yet jobs might be replace by AI later. Raise min wage and a lot of people lose their job faster since it will push big crop to invest more in AI. Those who can keep their min wage job will make more money but for how long?

I don't have the answer on how we can solve this issue. Seems like a lot of jobs are replace already by AI and robots already. I read an article somewhere that predicted in the next 20 years half of the jobs globally will be replace by AI and robots. So what's going to happen? Should those who lost their jobs just starve to death, how will the gov react to it? More EI?More low income assistant? universal wage? who will pay for universal wage? More tax to crop to pay for universal wage? I think the gov or society needs to look and plan for the future since this model of min wage isn't working and is bound to fail in the future.

I reread what you wrote and the only thing I can say, is that you need to add some sentence structure. It’s very hard to read.

Again, please stop comparing a small business like mine to ROGERS, TELUS, MCDONALDS, and AAMAZON!!

[Jmac]

You'd have to know the wage of each of the 44 employees to know the average wage.

Could be 43 people making $11.50/hour and 1 person making $17.50/hour for all we know.

Originally Posted by BIC_BAWS

Average pay = $14.50

Finding the average pay cheque paid per employee:
2716.25 monthly hours / 44 employees = 61.73hrs/employee
61.73hrs/employee x $14.50 avg hourly rate = $895.09

If you were to find how many more employees he could pay for with that increase:
$10,865 / $895.09 = 12.14 more employees

If we assume jackal can only afford the increase of $10,865/mo, and would have otherwise contributed that by hiring more, that’s 12 employees per pay period that he could have hired, but now would not as that money has been given to the 44 existing employees.


Try contract work, they usually have low requirements and it’s a good way to get back into the workforce.

Those menial jobs are readily available, like 68Style said, “if you see them on the street begging for money, they are simply not even trying at all to participate in society”. Of course they have to sort out their addictions and issues first.

BUT do you really think employers would be incentivized to hire people when the minimum wage goes up? By the above scenario calculations, it could have paid for 12 more employees, not to including the additional training costs (below) that comes associated with hiring (while not including all hiring costs).

125 avg overstaff hours * $14.50 avg hourly rate = $1,812.50 per new hire

Edit: If we were thinking of a business or white collared industry, I suspect the effect of a min wage increase would be that companies would work their existing employees harder and contract the work out more often. Yay! Contracted work = more pay for sub-contractors! Nope. That's only if you assume that these sub-contractors are only doing 1 contract and can take on the job themselves without additional resources. This increase would effectively move the labour cost for the company onto the sub-contractor, while cost of work for the company would be the same as before. Does this get people more jobs? Would the subcontractors start a company to hire more people to take on the jobs? Unlikely.