[Presto]

Surprised there isn't a thread on this, yet.

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/17970/production/_107342669_mediaitem107342275.jpg
https://images.axios.com/mmdtuYpiwum1udQJWYu_esF078Q=/2019/06/12/1560309679675.jpg


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-48591001

Early on Wednesday protesters, some wearing face masks and helmets, blocked key roads around government buildings.

Police in riot gear responded by using pepper spray on protesters to disperse them and said they were prepared to use force.

The Legislative Council (LegCo) has now delayed the second reading of the bill.

The pro-Beijing LegCo released a statement on Wednesday saying that the meeting which was planned for 11:00 local time (03:00 GMT), would be "changed to a later time" adding that members would be notified of the time later.

Despite widespread opposition the government had said it will continue to push for extradition.

A final vote is expected on 20 June with LegCo expected to pass the bill, Hong Kong media report.

Thousands of protesters - mostly young people and students - took to the streets and attempted to block access to government buildings ahead of the scheduled debate of the bill.

"This behaviour has gone beyond the scope of peaceful gatherings," the Hong Kong Police Force said in a tweet on Wednesday.

"We call on [protesters] to leave as soon as possible... otherwise we will use appropriate force.

But one young protester, decked in a black mask and gloves, told news site AFP that they would not "leave [until] they scrap the law".

Critics of the bill of amendments to the extradition laws cite the alleged use of torture, arbitrary detentions and forced confessions in the Chinese judicial system.

The government has promised legally binding human rights safeguards and other measures it says should alleviate concerns.

Nevertheless, this has led to the largest rallies the territory has seen since it was handed back to China by the British in 1997.

Police said they are also investigating death threats made against Hong Kong's Chief Executive, Carrie Lam, and members of the justice department over the bill.

An all too familiar fight[
By Martin Yip, BBC News Chinese, Hong Kong

The roar of the crowds gathered in Hong Kong brings back memories of day one of the Umbrella Movement in 2014. The images are familiar too.

There are young people wearing surgical masks dragging iron barriers placed by the police in order to build their own barricade. The roundabout outside the Legislative Council Complex is filled with protesters.

Somebody threw a water bottle at police in riot gear guarding the entrance to the parliament and then they all stood up, waving their batons, shouting: "Who did that?"

Five years ago on the first night of the Occupy protest a similar scene erupted into chaos as police deployed tear gas canisters.

There have been no real clashes so far and protesters greeted the news that the debate had been postponed with jubilation. The council speaker gave no reason, but pro-democracy legislators told the crowd, that pro-Beijing colleagues just couldn't get in.

Postponing the meeting might defuse the situation for now, but nobody knows for how long - because the crowd is refusing to go.

A wide range of groups have spoken out against extradition to China in recent days including schools, lawyers and businesses, with hundreds of petitions also in circulation.

More than 100 businesses including a magazine have said they will shut to allow their staff to protest for freedom and nearly 4,000 teachers said they would strike.

A number of financial companies, including HSBC, have made flexible work arrangements for Wednesday.

Powerful business lobbies say they fear the plans will damage Hong Kong's competitiveness as a base of operations.

After the largely peaceful protest, a number of protesters clashed with police outside the LegCo building, leading to injuries and arrests.

Ms Lam warned against further mass protests and strikes, saying: "I call on schools, parents, institutions, corporations, unions to consider seriously if they advocate these radical actions."

They allow for extradition requests from authorities in mainland China, Taiwan and Macau for suspects accused of criminal wrongdoing such as murder and rape. The requests will then be decided on a case-by-case basis.

The move came after a 19-year-old Hong Kong man allegedly murdered his 20-year-old pregnant girlfriend while they were holidaying in Taiwan together in February last year.

The man fled to Hong Kong and could not be extradited to Taiwan because no extradition treaty exists between the two countries.

Hong Kong officials have said courts in the territory will have the final say over whether to grant extradition requests, and suspects accused of political and religious crimes will not be extradited.

The government has sought to reassure the public with some concessions, including promising to only hand over fugitives for offences carrying a maximum sentence of at least seven years.

Hong Kong has entered into extradition agreements with 20 countries, including the UK and the US.

Hong Kong was a British colony from 1841 until sovereignty was returned to China in 1997.

Central to the handover was the agreement of the Basic Law, a mini-constitution that gives Hong Kong broad autonomy and sets out certain rights.

Under the "one country, two systems" principle, Hong Kong has kept its judicial independence, its own legislature, its economic system and the Hong Kong dollar.

Its residents were also granted protection of certain human rights and freedoms, including freedom of speech and assembly.

Beijing retains control of foreign and defence affairs, and visas or permits are required for travel between Hong Kong and the mainland.

However, the Basic Law expires in 2047 and what happens to Hong Kong's autonomy after that is unclear.

Chinese foreign ministry spokesman Geng Shuang said on Monday that Beijing would "continue to firmly support" Hong Kong's government, adding: "We firmly oppose any outside interference in the legislative affairs" of the region.

[Traum]

More than anything else, I am just sad about how far and how fast Hong Kong has regressed.

As commendable as the Hong Kong general public is for their restraint, I am very pessimistic about the outcome. The young kids / young adults will get their a$$es arrested and thrown into jail with criminal records for doing little more than assembling for the post-demonstration gatherings. A selected few will get slapped with ultra heavy jail sentences (7+ yrs) for doing anything more than just gathering. Crowds will get dispersed with pepper spray, and the police will get needlessly violent on protesters. I pretty much expected a similar immediate outcome as the Umbrella Revolution in 2014, except that the police will come down harder and harsher.

Except that the aftermath will be far more serious this time around. Numerous western countries (25+, I think?) have already issued warnings of how the passage of the extradition law will hurt business investments, effectively suggesting that they will withdraw their investment dollars and personnel from Hong Kong. The US has threatened to rescind the US-HK Policy Act that grants special privileges to Hong Kong (compared to Mainland China). With the guarantees in the US-HK Policy Act, the US would really consider Hong Kong to be no different than any other Chinese cities, and Hong Kong can pretty much kiss its economy, international status, as well as modern lifestyle goodbye.

To think that the former Pearl of the Orient will fall as low as it will... :(

[Tim Budong]

let see what happens
Head of police and others are issuing statements right now warning people to stop and not attend the site or else extreme measures will be used


Police are hell bent on clearing the area today

[StylinRed]

Watching it on viutv atm it is clearing up, but slow

Mom was wanting to head back to HK for a bit too yikes

[SkinnyPupp]

When I moved here 13 years ago, I thought I'd stick around in perpetuity, since the constitution in place stated that China couldn't even begin to have any influence here until starting in 2047.

But no, they have been digging and digging away at Hong Kong.

People are saying that this is the return of the Umbrella Movement from 5 years ago, but I fear that there will be more damage this time. Things will get ugly. Police are scrambling to clear the area, but people aren't going to leave easily. Even if they can't get 10K people in place, it will spread throughout the city.

If the bill does pass, that's it for Hong Kong. It's done.

This makes me really fucking anxious and it's kind of driving me crazy

[SkinnyPupp]

It's getting ugly already.. Cops shot this guy in the head with a beanbag, apparently he lost consciousness on the way to the hospital. They are beating the shit out of everyone they can get their hands on, including men and women who have already conceded to them. Just stomping the shit out of their skulls

https://i.redd.it/isajj9a4xv331.png

https://streamable.com/g0fw6

adorableultimategrison

https://i.redd.it/ahh5u0obhw331.png

[SkinnyPupp]

Apparently LegCo is cleared... If they actually go through with this..... TONIGHT....

Edit: LegCo canceled for today... Round 1 is over.

They're going to keep doing this until the bill gets canceled, or they get run over by tanks.

[Traum]

This is unbelievably infuriating -- when the protester has shown absolutely no signs of aggression, the cop went for the head shot:

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=2265750246978918

Subsequent videos seem to show the young man being OK, but the bag shot got him on his right eye and he was bleeding as well as unable to see (from the right eye). He is otherwise mobile and lucid though.

Both the HK gov as well as the police have gone mad. Riot police have their rules and procedures to follow when clearing the crowds out, but many of the officers are clearly not following protocol.

[Tim Budong]

the biggest concern is not if the bill will pass, but when it will pass
I really don't believe the gov't will back down from this.

This was uglier than 2014... people are prepared. diggin up bricks, masks, helmets, setting barricades in advanced etc.

sure, there are a bunch of peaceful protesters sittin at the back closer to bank of america building etc, but i don't think the police are gonna let this one get hte peaceful protest like occupy did.

It hurts to say, but the next 8-10hours are gonna be critical

[SkinnyPupp]

https://twitter.com/save_hk_please/status/1138767907591077888

Police spraying pepper spray inside the MTR entrance... My wife just went through that station, but thank god she didn't have to leave the platforms, just transferring. She said it was actually less busy than usual down there.

[Badhobz]

This is fucking crazy!!! the wife and her family is all up in arms about this shit too

But i dont understand what the huge deal is.

1) as long as you dont do any crime, this new legislation wont apply to you

2) so what if your extradited to China, it was bound to happen in 50 years after 1997 anyways.

3) HK is CHINA, it has been since 1997. This one country 2 system bullshit is just a farce. i dont think anyone would believe the CCP would honor these agreements and this gradual erosion of HK's status is pointless. Either just take over the damn thing already, or let HK live in their bubble in perpetuity. Why 50 years!? what that going to do anyways.

4) Economically HK has been on a downwards path ever since 1997 as CCP is more focused on developing Shanghai, Beijing, Shenzhen, etc. This gives HK even less leverage as the economical motivators move more to the core mainland cities.

Either just take everything over already and roll in your god damn tanks, or leave it the fuck alone. Let HK play their democracy game, it doesnt hurt overall chinese GDP and it shows that China is flexible on a world stage.

[whitev70r]

With this new law about to be passed, those who are arrested for this protest will be tried in China ... double doom.

"Do you hear the people sing?
Singing the song of angry men .... "

[SkinnyPupp]

1) as long as you dont do any crime, this new legislation wont apply to you


Sorry, but that is the worst possible argument you could ever have on ANY law, let alone such an open ended one run by a fucked up government like China.

Just ask the Canadians who were arrested for completely made up reasons, all because China had one of their spies arrested in Canada. These people still have yet to be heard from since. We don't even know if they're still alive.

And from there, we'll have whatever other insane law China decides to add. Oh you made a Winnie the Pooh meme? Boom, never heard from again. Then comes the public surveillance, which they already do in many parts of the country.

Don't want to be mean here, but give your head a shake

Reading the rest of your post wants me really mad, so I'll just stop here. Fucking hell

[Euro7r]

This is fucking stupid as I've been following this. China wants to get their hands on everything now. The police are put in the worst situation possible since they have to do their job, but at the same time they likely don't agree with the extradition.

[twitchyzero]

i remember when the public was sympathetic with the police in 2014

i guess not any more

[Ferra]

This is fucking crazy!!! the wife and her family is all up in arms about this shit too

But i dont understand what the huge deal is.

1) as long as you dont do any crime, this new legislation wont apply to you

2) so what if your extradited to China, it was bound to happen in 50 years after 1997 anyways.

3) HK is CHINA, it has been since 1997. This one country 2 system bullshit is just a farce. i dont think anyone would believe the CCP would honor these agreements and this gradual erosion of HK's status is pointless. Either just take over the damn thing already, or let HK live in their bubble in perpetuity. Why 50 years!? what that going to do anyways.

4) Economically HK has been on a downwards path ever since 1997 as CCP is more focused on developing Shanghai, Beijing, Shenzhen, etc. This gives HK even less leverage as the economical motivators move more to the core mainland cities.

Either just take everything over already and roll in your god damn tanks, or leave it the fuck alone. Let HK play their democracy game, it doesnt hurt overall chinese GDP and it shows that China is flexible on a world stage.
Except china consider criticism of the communist party a crime..
you will probably be locked up and charged for treason if you start writing a book about tiananmen square or taiwan Independence in china

I remember hearing news about a businessman who was fined & jailed because he accidentally printed a map that doesn't show taiwan as part of China...

[Mr.HappySilp]

The rich, powerful, educated will just immigrate to other countries same with people who have skills (same thing happen just before 1997). My aunt saw this coming way back aroudn 2000 I think and pretty sold all of her asset and move back to Vancouver even quitting her 7 figure quit job (in HK dollar). So many friends I know who left Van after graudate are quitting their jobs and moving their family back to Canada. Is not that this new bill is the way how China is tightening its grind on everything.

The thing with this new bill is that say you posted some on social media about China and if the Chinese gov doesn't like it they can just grab you legally back to China and throw you in jail for whatever reason they like.

There are no laws in China. If you are rich, powerful, and knows people law don't apply you to in China. Heck you can rape, run someone over with your car and kill him/her and nothing will you happen to you as long as you have the right person bought. If you got no connections you can't even get away with littering if the cops wants to arrest you. There are so many CCTV in China now literally they gov can track exactly where you are at any given point in time.

I fear after this many many people will leave HK and leaving those that are unable to leave struggle.

EDIT ON A sidenote China just pass a new bill about the new regulations they have on TV shows. is dumb lol. If you want to to air any anicent times TV shows it have to follow actual history and if it is fantasy TV show they can only air it once and can't do any remake (there a ton of Chinese TV shows that follow books so with those shows you can only air it once). Ancient shows can't be made up story. TV shows can not in anyway degrade the gov (which is always the case anyways), bad guy must stay bad till the end(so they can say after serving their jail be be the good guy or you can't show them missing their family or feel sorry for what they do.). And a bunch of stuff. Pretty much this will kill any creativity for any TV shows in the future just to please the current gov.

[SkinnyPupp]

Since I'm too upset/drunk to elaborate eloquently, I'll just link to this reddit post (https://old.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/bzluga/police_officers_use_a_water_canon_on_a_lone/eqtz1gc/) that I HOPE will illuminate the issue for people who don't know any better. If you really wonder why this is such a big issue when "HK is China anyway" (it's not) and "if you don't break laws, you'll be fine" (you won't) then you need to read this.

You really don't seem to understand. China's rulers and government aren't just "a bit different" from Canada or US. They are a fascist regime. They give no fucks about human rights. Seeing responses I've seen in this thread shouldn't be that surprising, coming from a place of privilege of being in Canada. But other parts of the world are not like Canada. And not just the "evil" theistic governments and dictators. China is REALLY FUCKING BAD if you care about human rights and freedom and liberty, and GETTING WORSE BY THE MINUTE. Hong Kong has never been its own sovereign nation, but it has never had to deal with being under control of tyranny. Not like this. Not for a long time.

To understand why Hong Kongers are so adamantly against this extradition law, you only need to realize that justice system in China is a joke. A very cruel joke.

A few examples of how fucked up China is:

1) The Chief Justice of China's Supreme Court had this to say about the rule of law:

"China's courts must firmly resist the western idea of “constitutional democracy”, “separation of powers” and “judicial independence”. These are erroneous western notions that threaten the leadership of the ruling Communist Party... We have to raise our flag and show our sword to struggle against such thoughts." (https://globalvoices.org/2017/01/20/chinas-top-judge-warns-against-the-threat-of-judicial-independence/)

2) The Chinese government can casually kidnap anyone with impunity. Dong Yaoqiong live streamed herself splashing ink on a poster of Xi Jinping and saying "I oppose Xi Jinping's dictatorship and the Communist Party's oppression." (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9sF34fJwh0)
Later that day the Chinese Gestapo went to her apartment and took her away.

Her last social media update before her account was wiped:

"Right now there are a group of people wearing uniforms outside my door. I’ll go out after I change my clothes. I did not commit a crime. The people and groups that hurt me are the ones who are guilty."

She was never heard from again.

Her father went online to call attention to her kidnapping. He and a supporter of his were also taken away.

This is the live stream showing her father and his supporter being taken away (https://twitter.com/voajianghe/status/1017824624741093377)

3) Another case of government kidnapping: Causeway Bay Books (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappearances) is a bookstore in Hong Kong that sells books that are banned in China. People who worked there were kidnapped in Hong Kong by the Chinese Government and secretly shipped to China for interrogation. The Chinese wanted to know who from China had bought banned books from the bookstore. Hence the kidnapping. The manager of the bookstore was locked up in China for months and was only allowed back to Hong Kong on the promise he would retrieve a customer list from a hard drive in HK and give it to China. He reneged on his promise once he crossed the border and hold a press conference instead. Now he's in exile in Taiwan.

A shareholder (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gui_Minhai) of the bookstore was kidnapped in Thailand in 2015 and is STILL being locked up in China to this day.

4) In China writing fictions can get you a long sentence: Chinese writer sentenced to 10 years in prison for writing homoerotic novels (https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/19/china/chinese-erotic-fiction-writer-prison-intl/index.html)

This is the kind of fascist regime HK government wants to extradite its own people to.

[Mr.HappySilp]

^^ But let's be honest though no one believe HK will stay the same in 50 years. People just don't expect the changes to take place so fast and being force down on the citizen on HK (or Chinese living in HK).

This whole one country two system is doom from the start. With the European union falling apart, US economy not doing well and China is on the raise. Which country is going to try to stop China. US but they aren't very successful. All of these country protesting is just for show. If they want to actually do something then do something instead of issuing statements which doesn't do shit. Most country is too deep in China's pocket to dare to do anything about it.

[yray]

this weekend will be fun...

weekend riots, weekday business

work hard play hard

cops are on a powertrip, doesn't help when all the british trained superiors are retired, now we are just dealing with idiotic baby boomer generation

[jing]

https://i.imgur.com/GVg2qDd.jpg

[dachinesedude]

This is fucking crazy!!! the wife and her family is all up in arms about this shit too

But i dont understand what the huge deal is.

1) as long as you dont do any crime, this new legislation wont apply to you

2) so what if your extradited to China, it was bound to happen in 50 years after 1997 anyways.

3) HK is CHINA, it has been since 1997. This one country 2 system bullshit is just a farce. i dont think anyone would believe the CCP would honor these agreements and this gradual erosion of HK's status is pointless. Either just take over the damn thing already, or let HK live in their bubble in perpetuity. Why 50 years!? what that going to do anyways.

4) Economically HK has been on a downwards path ever since 1997 as CCP is more focused on developing Shanghai, Beijing, Shenzhen, etc. This gives HK even less leverage as the economical motivators move more to the core mainland cities.

Either just take everything over already and roll in your god damn tanks, or leave it the fuck alone. Let HK play their democracy game, it doesnt hurt overall chinese GDP and it shows that China is flexible on a world stage.

you sound like a mainlander, tell me im right

[BIC_BAWS]

https://i.redd.it/ahh5u0obhw331.png


This last one was a gif posted on reddit. Some say it might actually just be water as the guy who got sprayed looked mostly annoyed more than pained.

[yray]

This last one was a gif posted on reddit. Some say it might actually just be water as the guy who got sprayed looked mostly annoyed more than pained.

maybe they got the mixture wrong LOL, fucking part time PC doesn't give 2 shits as long as hes getting paid

[Traum]

This is fucking stupid as I've been following this. China wants to get their hands on everything now. The police are put in the worst situation possible since they have to do their job, but at the same time they likely don't agree with the extradition.
I don't actually agree with this view. Instead, I'd say that the majority of the police force, regardless of where they rank, are primarily pro-establishment now. Whether it is by selection / recruit, or by brainwashing during cadet training and the prevalent attitude in the work environment, I think the vast majority of them honestly believe the protesters are the troublemakers and the enemy. Otherwise, how can anyone possibly and intentionally fire a headshot on a non-violent protester standing a good distance away from the officer?

There is definitely blood on the police's hands.

[Mr.HappySilp]

I don't actually agree with this view. Instead, I'd say that the majority of the police force, regardless of where they rank, are primarily pro-establishment now. Whether it is by selection / recruit, or by brainwashing during cadet training and the prevalent attitude in the work environment, I think the vast majority of them honestly believe the protesters are the troublemakers and the enemy. Otherwise, how can anyone possibly and intentionally fire a headshot on a non-violent protester standing a good distance away from the officer?

There is definitely blood on the police's hands.

When you are an officer you have to follow your superior order even when it might not always be correct. That's what officer do they. I am pretty sure a lot of them don't agree with what's going on but as their duty they have to or they can quit.

[Traum]

When you are an officer you have to follow your superior order even when it might not always be correct. That's what officer do they. I am pretty sure a lot of them don't agree with what's going on but as their duty they have to or they can quit.
That's the difference between legal and moral obligation. As a police officer, they may not have the right to refuse an order -- actually, they do. All soldiers and police officers have the right to refuse an unlawful order, it's just that most of them won't. But officers have the ability to determine how that order is to be carried out. Is it necessary to aim for the head? Even if it was a direct order to aim for the head -- which would almost certainly be in direct violation of police protocols -- the field officer can aim elsewhere.

When you look at the violent, hatred, and attitude that the many of the front line HK cops continue to show throughout the crowd suppression process, I can't see how they are taking it easy on the protesters.

[Mr.HappySilp]

if you follow HongKonghermit someone posted a picture of the orders the polices were given. Some of the orders are pretty violent basically telling the riot officer just beat any protester as hard as you can but make sure you do it when cameras are not looking...

[!LittleDragon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCokRDKR89c

An oversimplified explanation I'm sure. There's probably overreaction from both sides.

[CharlesInCharge]

Do any of you pro Hong Kong posters condemn Latin American ISIS groups like Zeta and how they rip peoples faces off while alive?

https://i.imgur.com/wTmqdAE.png

[Ferra]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCokRDKR89c

An oversimplified explanation I'm sure. There's probably overreaction from both sides.
That's a load of crap

He kept referring to this one example where a guy killed his gf in taiwan...
If the government is really that concerned with such an examples, why not implement laws to allow hong kong government to prosecute people for crimes they commited aboard?

US & canada doesn't let pedophiles go free here just because they fk children in some 3rd world countries instead of here.

In fact..i am pretty sure China will prosecute their own citizens for crimes committed aboard

Edit: took 3 mins to find example of China charging people for crimes committed oversea (Canada, US, New Zealand)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Amanda_Zhao
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_Xiao_Zhen
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Shao_Tong

[whitev70r]

From what I read, it all started with a man who killed his girlfriend in Taiwan, then he travelled back to Hong Kong and Taiwan could not extradite him back for prosecution. He was then charged in HK with a lesser crime, money laundering and will get like 29 months in jail.

Now who wouldn't want this bastard to face the full extent of the law? This is the impetus for the extradition law. The extradition law originally was pretty encompassing but since the protests, it has been scaled down to serious crimes like murder. What is the problem here? What is there to debate?

From Bloomberg:
A local teenager is killed while vacationing with her boyfriend in Taiwan. She’s beaten, strangled, stuffed in a suitcase and ultimately discarded near a train station. The boyfriend, a Hong Kong resident, admits to the murder after returning home. But authorities can’t extradite him to the island to stand trial, and instead prosecute him for the lesser charge of money laundering.

If you're interested in the China Communist vs. Western Democracy debate ... since we live in a democracy, here is another point of view for you to consider. I love being in the West with all its freedoms but this evangelism of 'democracy is the best system in the world' can be argued as colonialism BS. BTW, our country was just accused of genocide (in terms of human rights) if anyone is still standing on a soapbox.

Eric X. Li - A Tale of Two Political Systems
https://www.ted.com/talks/eric_x_li_a_tale_of_two_political_systems?language =en#t-53434

[Mr.HappySilp]

^^ I would support it if this law doesn't not apply toe China law. Remember there is no law in China they can make up any law on the spot. Or simply state your actions cost civil unrest and BAM they can arrest you.

What does civil unrest means anyways? Does it mean posting my view about the gov cause civil unrest? Does it mean if I speak up against the gov if they force me out of my the place I purchase without compensation cause civil unrest? What if a corrupt gov office rape and kill my daughter and me trying to seek justice cause civil unrest? What if tens of thousands of new born got poison and parents trying to seek justice does that cause civil unrest? Yup all of those cause civil unrest in China and people have been lock up/beaten/sentence to jail for it.

Now image you are HK and you posted something bad but the truth about Chinese gov. Before this new policy China can't touch you coz you are in Hk and you have the right of freedom. With this new policy Chinese gov can legally come to HK arrest you and put you in a Chinese jail coz what you posted online cause civil unrest. That's why people in HK are scare of this policy. Image if you say something bad about the Canadian gov (high carton tax rate for example) you can be throw in jail. How would you feel if Canada is run by such a gov.?

[whitev70r]

^^ From Bloomberg - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-06-11/the-extradition-law-that-s-got-hong-kong-protesting-quicktake

How has Hong Kong responded?

The government says the original version has been amended to protect human rights and ensure suspects receive a fair hearing and aren’t extradited for political offenses. It raised the proposed threshold for extradition to crimes that carried sentences of seven years in prison, compared with a three-year threshold initially. Earlier, nine business categories were removed including bankruptcy, securities and futures and intellectual property. The bill now covers “serious crimes” such as murder, polygamy and robbery. Chief Executive Carrie Lam has pledged to stick to the plan of passing the bill before the current legislative period ends in July.

[Mr.HappySilp]

Yea and you trust the bill won't change in the future? Just like how the 1 country 2 system wasn't suppose to change in 50 years. Is not even half way and already tons of change happen if this get pass it will just mean the end of 1 country 2 system. I personal don't trust a thing a Chinese gov puppet say. They can just let the bill pass in a few month's time change it to fit any crime. Sure let's have a fair hearing in China behind close doors with in lawyer.

[68style]

When you are an officer you have to follow your superior order even when it might not always be correct. That's what officer do they. I am pretty sure a lot of them don't agree with what's going on but as their duty they have to or they can quit.

Psshhh... and members of the nazi party were just following orders too right?

They're still being hunted down and tried for their war crimes to this day. This is a bullshit and nonsense excuse proven wrong by history.

[Mr.HappySilp]

Psshhh... and members of the nazi party were just following orders too right?

They're still being hunted down and tried for their war crimes to this day. This is a bullshit and nonsense excuse proven wrong by history.

I totally agree with you. I am just trying to say that the police/riot officer really doesn't have a choice. They can either quit or do what they were told. Being a police office I am sure the pay is pretty good. Some might have family and if they quit they might not be able to afford rent or put food on the table. Also some people are suspecting some of these police/riot officer from China so that's why they don't really about HK citizens and could care less if anyone is injury.

[originalhypa]

Whether it is by selection / recruit, or by brainwashing during cadet training and the prevalent attitude in the work environment, I think the vast majority of them honestly believe the protesters are the troublemakers and the enemy.

Agreed. The cops in the video posted on pg 1 looked super into it while they were beating the shit out of that guy. I'm a firm believer that if Asia and North America ever had a war, that we would have superior firepower. But Asia would flood us with their superior numbers. This is a perfect example of that.



When you are an officer you have to follow your superior order even when it might not always be correct. That's what officer do they. I am pretty sure a lot of them don't agree with what's going on but as their duty they have to or they can quit.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that part of modern Chinese culture?
Where independent thought is frowned upon, while actions that promote the betterment of the country is required?

This is also why an unarmed populace is in serious danger. This is also why many governments go out of their way to disarm their people.

Psshhh... and members of the nazi party were just following orders too right?

They're still being hunted down and tried for their war crimes to this day. This is a bullshit and nonsense excuse proven wrong by history.

:fuckyea::fuckyea::fuckyea:

[Badhobz]

Sorry, but that is the worst possible argument you could ever have on ANY law, let alone such an open ended one run by a fucked up government like China.

Just ask the Canadians who were arrested for completely made up reasons, all because China had one of their spies arrested in Canada. These people still have yet to be heard from since. We don't even know if they're still alive.

And from there, we'll have whatever other insane law China decides to add. Oh you made a Winnie the Pooh meme? Boom, never heard from again. Then comes the public surveillance, which they already do in many parts of the country.

Don't want to be mean here, but give your head a shake

Reading the rest of your post wants me really mad, so I'll just stop here. Fucking hell

I don't mean to piss you hk guys off, but do you think anything is going to change ? It's Chinese Communist party man. 50 years ain't exactly a longtime. Slow errosion or fast take over, all your cherished rights and privileges are going away sooner or later. You're even lucky to have some sort of a voice, my dad tried that shit back in 89 and almost got him killed.

You guys keep thinking Hong Kong is special. It aint. It's China now, it's been a part of China since 97. They'll do with their property as they see fit and they'll trample all who oppose them. I ain't a big fan of the CCP either and that's why we left Shanghai.

HK and it's people will have be assimilated into the rest of the 1.5 billion Chinese underneath a communist regime.

[CivicBlues]

To all the former Vancouverites residing in HK reading this: Come Home. Is money worth all this Bullshit? Is cool nightlife and cheap food worth seeing your freedoms slowly chiselled away? Do you want your kids to grow up in this kind of environment?

We will welcome you back with open arms as our former compatriots and neighbours. Heck, I heard there's a few thousand empty condos you can move right into.

[Traum]

It seems to me that you haven't fully grasped the situation in Hong Kong. The case of the Hong Konger killing his gf in Taiwan was only a made up excuse that the HK CEO used to kickstart the extradition law. A bunch of reputable lawyers in HK have already written a lengthy explanation of how Hong Kong could easily have leveraged its current and existing laws to arrange for a 1-off extradition. Taiwan has also previously request Hong Kong to transfer alledged criminals from Hong Kong to Taiwan in the past, but Hong Kong had ignored those previous requests.

Britain has specifically avoided negotiating an extradition deal between China and Hong Kong since its Sino-British Joint Declaration in 1984 because people in Hong Kong never had any trust toward's China's so-called legal system. In order words, it is by design that there is no extradition law to China. The current HK CEO only wants to change it now because she has been ordered to do so by her CCP bosses.

For a better explanation of why an extradition law with China is a bad idea, Chris Patten, the last British-HK governor explains it really well here:

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1195338353969270
From what I read, it all started with a man who killed his girlfriend in Taiwan, then he travelled back to Hong Kong and Taiwan could not extradite him back for prosecution. He was then charged in HK with a lesser crime, money laundering and will get like 29 months in jail.

Now who wouldn't want this bastard to face the full extent of the law? This is the impetus for the extradition law. The extradition law originally was pretty encompassing but since the protests, it has been scaled down to serious crimes like murder. What is the problem here? What is there to debate?

[BIC_BAWS]

To all the former Vancouverites residing in HK reading this: Come Home. Is money worth all this Bullshit? Is cool nightlife and cheap food worth seeing your freedoms slowly chiselled away? Do you want your kids to grow up in this kind of environment?

We will welcome you back with open arms as our former compatriots and neighbours. Heck, I heard there's a few thousand empty condos you can move right into.


https://www.scmp.com/comment/insight-opinion/hong-kong/article/2150836/call-canada-why-hongkongers-are-leaving-second

[SkinnyPupp]

To all the former Vancouverites residing in HK reading this: Come Home. Is money worth all this Bullshit? Is cool nightlife and cheap food worth seeing your freedoms slowly chiselled away? Do you want your kids to grow up in this kind of environment?

We will welcome you back with open arms as our former compatriots and neighbours. Heck, I heard there's a few thousand empty condos you can move right into.
I get what you're saying, but when a place becomes your home, it's not easy to just decide to get up and go. Not everyone is a rich banker who makes millions and goes out every single night for drinking and fancy dinners, and was only here because of a great compensatory housing package and to sling dick for a while.

[Traum]

I get what you're saying, but when a place becomes your home, it's not easy to just decide to get up and go. Not everyone is a rich banker who makes millions and goes out every single night for drinking and fancy dinners, and was only here because of a great compensatory housing package and to sling dick for a while.
IMO, the easier question to ask yourself is -- would you want your children to live and grow up in such a twisted society where there is no freedom of so many different kinds?

I, for one, cannot imagine growing up in a place like this, and I am forever thankful that my parents have sacrifiiced everything they had, and uprooted themselves so that I can grow up in a (relatively) free country.

[SkinnyPupp]

https://streamable.com/ne0un

[Great68]

I don't mean to piss you hk guys off, but do you think anything is going to change ? It's Chinese Communist party man. 50 years ain't exactly a longtime. Slow errosion or fast take over, all your cherished rights and privileges are going away sooner or later. You're even lucky to have some sort of a voice, my dad tried that shit back in 89 and almost got him killed.

You guys keep thinking Hong Kong is special. It aint. It's China now, it's been a part of China since 97. They'll do with their property as they see fit and they'll trample all who oppose them. I ain't a big fan of the CCP either and that's why we left Shanghai.

HK and it's people will have be assimilated into the rest of the 1.5 billion Chinese underneath a communist regime.

I'm curious, did anyone actually think that China was going leave Hong Kong and it's special administration alone in perpetuity?

Based on China's track record, that would seem pretty naive to me.

[SkinnyPupp]

IMO, the easier question to ask yourself is -- would you want your children to live and grow up in such a twisted society where there is no freedom of so many different kinds?

I, for one, cannot imagine growing up in a place like this, and I am forever thankful that my parents have sacrifiiced everything they had, and uprooted themselves so that I can grow up in a (relatively) free country.
If I'd planned to ever have kids, I probably would have left long ago. I'm only concerned about myself and the rest of my family, and the rest of the country really, when it comes to human rights. I love Hong Kong, but like every place in the world, it has some problems. Some of which do and don't apply to me personally. Not having children, many of them don't apply to me.

I am against the bill obviously, but I personally will be safe from it until they start really abusing it. These posts themselves wouldn't be possible if I was in China. So while I am not acutely worried about getting taken away to China, it's just infuriating to see happen to my home.

[Badhobz]

Poor hkpd. Can't imagine having to disperse those riots when you secretly all agree with the rioters.

[EmperorIS]

Hong Kong mentality:

Protests against a tyrannical Chinese government. Surrounds an high profile government building and shuts down an entire business district.

Gets mad when Police stops them.

This isn't some 50 people in a park shutting shit. This is a million people surrounding an government building with politicians and top secret private documents of the governing body and its officials. It just takes 1 idiot to do something stupid to turn the whole situation very very violent. You think the Hong Kong government and police is gonna risk that sort of shit? This ain't a game.

I'm all for protesting for freedom, but don't play victim when the cops come and stomp you. It takes more than just whining for freedom.

[SkinnyPupp]

I'm curious, did anyone actually think that China was going leave Hong Kong and it's special administration alone in perpetuity?

Based on China's track record, that would seem pretty naive to me.
That was definitely a consideration when I moved here, but back then there was very little interference. When I first moved here, you wouldn't even see China flags in front of government buildings, it would be the HK flag, with China below it sometimes. There weren't even mandarin announcements on the MTR. It looked like they were going to abide by the constitution, which specifically says that they can't BEGIN to do ANYTHING in Hong Kong until after 2047. In that case, these kinds of bills wouldn't even be talked about until then.

But then the leadership in China changed, and if you guys don't know, just consider how crazy you think Kim Jong Il was, and Kim Jong Un is... Well that's who China has in power now. He is changing their constitution, adding in cultish laws with full cooperation of the CCP, and in fact has made it so he can rule in perpetuity. Not even Mao had that LUL

So they've been constantly trying to meddle in Hong Kong, and HK has fought back constantly. They tried to add mainland brainwashing into elementary cirriculum, but HK successfully fought it, They tried to add other things, but HK constantly fought them back. It's been escalating each time, each new law more ridiculous and cultish CCP than the last. And now we're here.

[SkinnyPupp]

Hong Kong mentality:

Protests against a tyrannical Chinese government. Surrounds an high profile government building and shuts down an entire business district.

Gets mad when Police stops them.

This isn't some 50 people in a park shutting shit. This is a million people surrounding an government building with politicians and top secret private documents of the governing body and its officials. It just takes 1 idiot to do something stupid to turn the whole situation very very violent. You think the Hong Kong government and police is gonna risk that sort of shit? This ain't a game.

I'm all for protesting for freedom, but don't play victim when the cops come and stomp you. It takes more than just whining for freedom.
More privileged fucks sitting at their computers saying how it's great for a group of cops to stomp the fuck out of someone's skull, because they are in a place they shouldn't be. FailFish

[EmperorIS]

More privileged fucks sitting at their computers saying how it's great for a group of cops to stomp the fuck out of someone's skull, because they are in a place they shouldn't be. FailFish

Where did I say it would be great for them to get stomped?

I said don't expect to join a protest against the chinese government and not be prepared to get retaliated against.

[SkinnyPupp]

Where did I say it would be great for them to get stomped?

I said don't expect to join a protest against the chinese government and not be prepared to get retaliated against.
So what's your point then?

The Royal HK Police Force used to have among the best reputation in the world. Now we don't even know who these people are. There have been protests in the past, but we rarely ever saw violence like this. Not just arresting or subduing protesters (not rioters), but stomping the shit out of anyone they can get their hands on.

The protesters haven't fired a single shot in the other direction. They are literally standing and yelling, with some whacking at buildings, putting up obstructions, and some groups singing. And recovering from less-lethal bullets and tear gas.

[Hondaracer]

Terran VS Zerg

[Badhobz]

fight back all you like, in another 30 years your ass is theirs. Its pretty much theirs already since the leaders are all "chosen" by the CCP. HK cant hold back the tide of China. The fate was sealed in 1997 when the brits decided to peace out.

[bobbinka]

fight back all you like, in another 30 years your ass is theirs. Its pretty much theirs already since the leaders are all "chosen" by the CCP. HK cant hold back the tide of China. The fate was sealed in 1997 when the brits decided to peace out.

it's so sad that there are people who think like this. should people have no hope? should they not fight for their rights and what they believe in? The world you live in today wouldnt be what it is if people in the past didnt fight for their future.

Either you are truly blessed with a life where something like this is beyond comprehension, or you have already lived through something similar and have been worn away by it. I hope it's the former.

[DragonChi]

The writing was on the wall when all the great HK movies started to cease production. Can't say I'm surprised, and I don't see it getting any better anytime soon. This is a country that enforced a one child policy. I really hope a revolution comes out of this. Also surprised that the US isn't backing any groups for escalation. I have family in HK, if they needed sponsoring, there would be no hesitation.

[SkinnyPupp]

it's so sad that there are people who think like this. should people have no hope? should they not fight for their rights and what they believe in? The world you live in today wouldnt be what it is if people in the past didnt fight for their future.

Either you are truly blessed with a life where something like this is beyond comprehension, or you have already lived through something similar and have been worn away by it. I hope it's the former.

Smug bullshit comments like that show just how spoiled rotten people can be when they come from a place of privilege. There's nothing he did to enjoy the freedoms he does, yet he sticks it in the face of people who are oppressed.

We see the same thing with race, gender, sexuality, everything... Privileged fucks don't even know how ignorant their shitty comments are, and how unhelpful and even hurtful they can be.

[Badhobz]

The fuck are you talking about, I was being nice, but I've had it with your bullshit.

HK had it way better than the rest of China for a very long time. When the CCP came into my grandparents home in Shanghai, they took out my family and stripped them of all their worldly possessions because they were deemed an elite. They sent half my family off to work in some god damn shithole and we've never heard from them again. What you are "sort of" going through now, millions of Chinese families have already gone through. Your experiences right now are a fucking cake walk compared to the shit people endured and are still enduring back in mainland China. My family is still there. They've thrived, they were able to adapt in the system and when i ask them about coming to Canada, they don't even want to.

You do know the 1.5 billion rest of the Chinese people dont give a fuck about your little problem right? the ones that could have all left, the ones who are there have already made peace or is able to work the system to ensure their families have survived and prospered. All these rich mainlanders didnt just come out of nowhere. The system in China isnt perfect but it raised the general standard of living for our entire ethnic group. Yeah there's bound to be issues along the way, but trust me, you guys never had it as bad as we did. 50 year is the agreed upon term. When that's up, legally they can do whatever the want. Technically, they can do whatever the fuck they want right now and there isnt a god damn thing you can do about it because you guys have no support.

You know whos the most elitist? FUCKING HK people. You guys always talking down about mainlanders, always trying to set yourself apart, always thinking you're different and somehow better than mainlanders. YOU ARE NOT DIFFERENT, NOT THE ANYMORE. WAKE THE FUCK UP, you're not SPECIAL. OUR SHITTY OPPRESSIVE GOVERNMENT DONT HAVE TO ACCOMMODATE YOUR ASS, HK is just a city in CHINA along with many other cities we have. You might not like the rest of the family, but we are your family. YOU ARE CHINESE, you live in CHINA and its time the chickens came home to the roost.

[Badhobz]

it's so sad that there are people who think like this. should people have no hope? should they not fight for their rights and what they believe in? The world you live in today wouldnt be what it is if people in the past didnt fight for their future.

Either you are truly blessed with a life where something like this is beyond comprehension, or you have already lived through something similar and have been worn away by it. I hope it's the former.

Im a realist. You can live in a happy land of fake optimism. I know the government in power and im telling you right now, they ain't going to bend to 1 fucking city. It'll take an entire country to overthrow that established government and as long as the majority of people see their lives slowly improving (compare China in 1980's vs now) and you'll see why so many of the Chinese citizens are willing to capitulate with the autocratic regime. They don't like it, but it kind of sort of works for them. They might have to sacrifice freedoms but at least they can buy a car now and have access to electricity and decent food.

[twitchyzero]

hk is a lost cause imo

if anyone who didn't grow up there is still expecting western ideologies/fair treatment under a puppet state...they should have an exit plan in the next 5-10 years

[underscore]

I know the laws in China tend to be, shall we say flexible at times, but based on how it's currently set up, can they charge someone who hasn't actually set foot in China under one of these "causing unrest" or w/e laws and request extradition?

Although if they're already sneaking into HK and seize people as some claim then the risk was already there, this just makes it easier for them?

[yray]

I know the laws in China tend to be, shall we say flexible at times, but based on how it's currently set up, can they charge someone who hasn't actually set foot in China under one of these "causing unrest" or w/e laws and request extradition?

Although if they're already sneaking into HK and seize people as some claim then the risk was already there, this just makes it easier for them?

you can do something in Canada against a Chinese citizen that is illegal in China but legal here and still be prosecuted. Chinese law has no sovereignty limit.

they were bitching about Canada arresting meng wan Zhou yet they want to pull the same shit in hk

Going ahead with extradition is putting the nail in the coffin for hk. The whole economy of Hong Kong right now is it being still legally independent of Hong Kong yet close to China. Money can flow in and out, people having freedoms. If this law goes forward, what is the purpose of Hong Kong. people might as well do business in Singapore.

[DragonChi]

What's illegal in China but legal here? Sodomy? LOL

[yray]

What's illegal in China but legal here? Sodomy? LOL

calling chairman xi as winnie the pooh

[bobbinka]

Im a realist. You can live in a happy land of fake optimism. I know the government in power and im telling you right now, they ain't going to bend to 1 fucking city. It'll take an entire country to overthrow that established government and as long as the majority of people see their lives slowly improving (compare China in 1980's vs now) and you'll see why so many of the Chinese citizens are willing to capitulate with the autocratic regime. They don't like it, but it kind of sort of works for them. They might have to sacrifice freedoms but at least they can buy a car now and have access to electricity and decent food.

And your family left to come here to start a new life. What you enjoy here only exists because people in the past fought for it.

So because your family had to suffer, so should HK? And because, in your opinion, it is way better than what the rest of China got, it's acceptable? Is it because your family never had a fighting chance, so no one else should?

These are different times. When the CCP went to your grandparents home in Shanghai, were you born yet? If you had been there when you were an adult, with the power of social media and the world watching, as well as millions of people to stand with you, would you not have put up a fight? If the Canadian government walked into your house today and took everything from you, would you just let it happen?

The way you talk about China sounds like this:
https://i.imgur.com/c4jt321.png

Have a little compassion and understanding. If you won't fight for yourself, who will? For some people, 50 years is the remainder of their lives. No one's talking about overthrowing a government or starting world war 3. They want what was agreed upon to be honored. They want to be treated with respect.

Back then, did women ever think they'd be able to vote? did black people think slavery would ever be abolished? They still fought anyway.

Maybe it's all for nothing, but at least these people will be able to say they tried. And I would hope that anyone who never had a chance to fight (in their experiences) would wish these people the best. And perhaps, out of all the people the the Chinese government has bullied in the past, HK just might have the best fighting chance.

[SkinnyPupp]

The whole idea of China "is not THAT bad... Look at how many people got rich!" literally disgusts me. Yeah your family is "fine" as the comic above shows. Good thing they are Han Chinese right!

Millions of Chinese "went through" a lot of shit, but guess what - they still are. They are still going to, and it's going to get worse. They're going BACK to the cult of personality of 50's communism, but with the added benefit of technology, science, and money. And you're crazy if you think they're going to stop at Hong Kong. Once 2047 rolls by, you know Taiwan will be next on their agenda. They still consider Taiwan to be theirs, and they will absolutely go over there and conquer the country. And from there, who knows... Your Canadian kids may be fighting your Chinese cousins kids in World War 3 for all we know.

Yes, a growing number of the population are privileged enough to be in the "middle class" where they can get by, making good money as long as they don't have any opinions on things. God forbid they get into debt, lose enough social points not to be able to travel (outside OR within the country) or get an education (outside OR within the country). Their lives would be relegated to attending communist re-education camps and working in factories, unable to leave the premises without supervision/surveillance. Oh, this isn't fiction btw.

Unfortunately, there are racist/nationalist assholes all over the world, including Hong Kong. But I think generally the idea of wanting to be considered "NOT MAINLAND" has nothing to do with the mainland people of China, but the government and culture the government is building. If you have pride in your culture (which I should iterate, is NOT perfect in HK or Canada or USA or anywhere really), and people keep telling you it doesn't exist, you might get used to fighting back against that. Hong Kong is not China, and despite the "inevitable" people here are going to fight to the death to prove it.

[whitev70r]

Ironic how China is bitching about Canada's extradition agreement/laws and they are trying to pass an extradition law. :lol

[Great68]

I don't think he's saying it's fine the way it is, as much as he's saying the fight is completely futile and might as well assimilate and make the best out of a bad thing.

[SkinnyPupp]

I don't think he's saying it's fine the way it is, as much as he's saying the fight is completely futile and might as well assimilate and make the best out of a bad thing.
That's not what he's saying, but I understand the sentiment. And if this was 2047, I'd agree

[Badhobz]

And your family left to come here to start a new life. What you enjoy here only exists because people in the past fought for it.

So because your family had to suffer, so should HK? And because, in your opinion, it is way better than what the rest of China got, it's acceptable? Is it because your family never had a fighting chance, so no one else should?

These are different times. When the CCP went to your grandparents home in Shanghai, were you born yet? If you had been there when you were an adult, with the power of social media and the world watching, as well as millions of people to stand with you, would you not have put up a fight? If the Canadian government walked into your house today and took everything from you, would you just let it happen?

The way you talk about China sounds like this:
https://i.imgur.com/c4jt321.png

Have a little compassion and understanding. If you won't fight for yourself, who will? For some people, 50 years is the remainder of their lives. No one's talking about overthrowing a government or starting world war 3. They want what was agreed upon to be honored. They want to be treated with respect.

Back then, did women ever think they'd be able to vote? did black people think slavery would ever be abolished? They still fought anyway.

Maybe it's all for nothing, but at least these people will be able to say they tried. And I would hope that anyone who never had a chance to fight (in their experiences) would wish these people the best. And perhaps, out of all the people the the Chinese government has bullied in the past, HK just might have the best fighting chance.

Tried ? Like the umbrella movement a few years back? How did that work out. I'm saying this is a futile effort and the lost of lives and suffering is all for naught because you literally only have 30 years left before it all gets washed away. The fate of Hong Kong is predetermined. This isn't going to change the course of the country. Not as long as there is majority public support for the existing government.

You need to know your battles and when to fight them. This is a lost cause. Hong Kong does not even have popular support in the country or abroad. Western governments are not willing to throw out their economic relations with China in order to protect your city.

You want China's government to change ? You need suffering on a scale never seen before. You need to take away all the progress of the last 30 years before the chinese people will raise up and throw off the shackles of the CCP.

[Badhobz]

I don't think he's saying it's fine the way it is, as much as he's saying the fight is completely futile and might as well assimilate and make the best out of a bad thing.

That's exactly what I'm saying. Thank you for understanding

[DragonChi]

calling chairman xi as winnie the pooh

LOL, big daddy xi about to get some HK ass. how about that one :D :lol

[threezero]

I also agree with Badhobz on that CCP has done very well for China. They literally took China from nothing to a global superpower and economic powerhouse.

CCP is the greatest dynasty that China has ever had in its long history.

Most of the generation that benefit from this dynasty is still very well alive. They remember what it was like in the beginning and its hard to argue with them that they should fight against the CCP.

After all why should they, the CCP lead them from nothing to the prosperity they have now. In fact they have everything to lose. Why should they fight for this imaginary freedom thing they've never had and risk loosing everything they gain along the way.

They've follow the rule and play the game. And you have to be honest they did pretty well doing so. This is different than a say a dictatorship in Africa.

China has a functional economic system and wealthy, a rich middle and upper class. Tech, art luxury. Whatever a functional first world society need, China has.

This comes at a cost of freedom. Or rather a democratic western version of freedom. Freedom that nobody alive in Mainland china has EVER experience.

Majority of the Chinese citizen is not suffering. They are thriving in what the rest of the world call a Facist state. It make no sense for a thriving population to revolt against their king.

Yes you will suffer some inconvienece along the way, the king might made some bad call that affect minorities (aka not themselves) but overall keep your head down and you will live a good life.

Following this logic, its hard for Mainlander to understand HK's fight. There is no use trying to explain the freedom they are defending because its a completely foreign concept to them. To mainlander HK is being a little bitch/princess.

When you have kneel too long, it is strange to see other people standing.


I do believe HK is fighting a lost cause. The CCP will not yield to them. The more you fight the more they will oppress. Regardless I'm rooting for this lost cause.

HK is special not only because of its culture and its ex colonial root. Being part of China, Hong Konger is the ONLY Chinese population that remembers and know what is human right and freedom like the rest of the free world. And good on them for trying to protect it for the future generation.

[bobbinka]

You need to know your battles and when to fight them. This is a lost cause. Hong Kong does not even have popular support in the country or abroad. Western governments are not willing to throw out their economic relations with China in order to protect your city.


By your logic, you would never fight any battle unless you are guaranteed a win, no matter the consequences.



Following this logic, its hard for Mainlander to understand HK's fight. There is no use trying to explain the freedom they are defending because its a completely foreign concept to them. To mainlander HK is being a little bitch/princess.

When you have kneel too long, it is strange to see other people standing.

Ah yes, this is what the discussion feels like.

[Badhobz]

You keep reducing my specific arguments down to some inane babble about broad reaching conceptual applications. No, this is just about Hong Kong and not Sun Tzu art of war. Hong Kong is lost but one day there will be change and hopefully that day is sooner than later.

[danned]

https://i.imgur.com/D27cOmo.jpg

[Hehe]

I also agree with Badhobz on that CCP has done very well for China. They literally took China from nothing to a global superpower and economic powerhouse.

CCP is the greatest dynasty that China has ever had in its long history.

Most of the generation that benefit from this dynasty is still very well alive. They remember what it was like in the beginning and its hard to argue with them that they should fight against the CCP.

After all why should they, the CCP lead them from nothing to the prosperity they have now. In fact they have everything to lose. Why should they fight for this imaginary freedom thing they've never had and risk loosing everything they gain along the way.

They've follow the rule and play the game. And you have to be honest they did pretty well doing so. This is different than a say a dictatorship in Africa.

China has a functional economic system and wealthy, a rich middle and upper class. Tech, art luxury. Whatever a functional first world society need, China has.

This comes at a cost of freedom. Or rather a democratic western version of freedom. Freedom that nobody alive in Mainland china has EVER experience.

Majority of the Chinese citizen is not suffering. They are thriving in what the rest of the world call a Facist state. It make no sense for a thriving population to revolt against their king.

Yes you will suffer some inconvienece along the way, the king might made some bad call that affect minorities (aka not themselves) but overall keep your head down and you will live a good life.

Following this logic, its hard for Mainlander to understand HK's fight. There is no use trying to explain the freedom they are defending because its a completely foreign concept to them. To mainlander HK is being a little bitch/princess.

When you have kneel too long, it is strange to see other people standing.


I do believe HK is fighting a lost cause. The CCP will not yield to them. The more you fight the more they will oppress. Regardless I'm rooting for this lost cause.

HK is special not only because of its culture and its ex colonial root. Being part of China, Hong Konger is the ONLY Chinese population that remembers and know what is human right and freedom like the rest of the free world. And good on them for trying to protect it for the future generation.

No. If you follow the progression of Chinese wealth development from an economic perspective, things really only exploded after China joined the WTO.

The WTO allowed China to become the manufacturing powerhouse it is today. Its further growth until today was possible because it fulfilled NONE of its WTO obligations that it AGREED to do.

And I'm sick and tired of people saying CCP was the greatest thing ever happened to modern China. Take other Asian countries who aren't communist like Taiwan, Singapore (not exactly democratic, but some elements), South Korea... etc.

They have done just fine with democracy. Yes, they all have its share of problems, but they all prosper in their own ways and are major players in the global economy in many industries.

If China had gone democratic, I'm sure it too will have some shitty problems, however, I'm also sure it will be a dominant player in many industries.

Stop praising CCP for what China is today. Have you ever thought of the possibility that China could have been even better without CCP? If democracy would bring nothing but chaos to China, how the fuck the US became world superpower by being democratic?!

[Manic!]

I don't think he's saying it's fine the way it is, as much as he's saying the fight is completely futile and might as well assimilate and make the best out of a bad thing.

Fuck that shit. Never give up no mater how bad it becomes.




https://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Shaheedi_of_Guru_Tegh_Bahadur

In the summer of 1675, the four of them set out for Delhi. On arrival they were asked to convert to Islam or else face the penalty of death.

Guru Tegh Bahadur bravely declared that he would rather sacrifice his life than give up his faith or his freedom. The Guru was than kept chained and imprisoned in an iron cage and was tortured using the most horrific methods for 8 days.

Of course the Guru was an enlightened soul and keeping his mind fixated on God, he withstood the torture with no sign of grief or complaint. Upon seeing the Guru’s resolve, the Emperor looked to break his spirit by executing his companions.
Execution of the 3 Sikhs
Bhai Mati Das was sawn into two, from head downwards.

First Bhai Dayal Das was brought in front of the Guru and placed in a cauldron of boiling water, he calmly accepted death and merged his soul back with God (Waheguru).

Mughals then decided to kill Bhai Mati Das. They said to him "Brother, embrace Islam and enjoy the pleasures provided by us in this life and in heaven. If you do not embrace Islam, your body will be sawn into two."

Bhai Mati Dass replied, "I can sacrifice hundreds of such heavens for my faith. I see all the happiness in the path of my faith."

After his refusal, the qazis asked him his last wish, to which he replied, 'When I am being cut with the saw, let my face be towards my mentor so that I may behold my Guru till my last breath and he may keep on seeing me so that he may be convinced how happily I reach my last destination."

By the order of the qazis, the executioners sawed Bhai Mati Dass in two.

The qazis then asked Bhai Sati Dass, "Save your life by embracing Islam and live in pleasure."
Bhai Sati Das attains martyrdom by wrapped in cotton and being burnt alive

Bhai Sati Dass replied, “You cannot understand that my pleasure and happiness lie only in obeying the command of my Guru. It does not lie in saving this life which must end one day."

At this reply, the executioners wrapped Bhai Sati Dass in cotton, poured oil over it and set fire to him. Bhai Sati Dass remained calm while burning till his last breath and remained true to his Guru.

The Guru supreme sacrifice

Finally after peacefully bearing different forms of torture and refusing to show miracles at the request of Aurengzeb, Sri Guru Tegh Bahadur was beheaded in Chandni Chowk, Delhi, India. A note was written by Guru jee and placed around his neck which read ‘I gave my head, but not my faith’.

Now we must also take into consideration Gurbani strongly challenges rituals, idol worship or taking part in any fasts; which are a part of Hindu dharma. So how great was Guru Jee to sacrifice his life, so that others could live a life based on their own religious beliefs.

[SkinnyPupp]

LegCo meeting canceled again. Round 2 win

[SkinnyPupp]

Just for fun, look at how China's news source is covering it

Peaceful expression urged amid HK demonstrations - Chinadaily.com.cn (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/global/2019-06/13/content_37480190.htm)

Protesters besieged Hong Kong's Legislative Council and government headquarters on Wednesday morning, blocked nearby roads and damaged cars in opposition to the city's extradition law amendments, throwing the city into chaos.

Carrie Lam Cheng Yuet-ngor, the special administrative region's chief executive, said in an interview with the city's leading broadcaster - Television Broadcasts Ltd - that she was "saddened" and "worried" about the violent clashes during the day. Young people might end up doing something they may regret in the future, Lam said.

She appealed to the public to express their opinions in a rational and peaceful way.

Lam said the government will press ahead with the amendments despite the violent demonstrations.

Different authorities appealed to the public to stay calm. The special administrative region's Chief Secretary for Administration Matthew Cheung Kin-chung called on protesters to stop occupying the area and restrain themselves from unlawful behavior.

Similar to the illegal "Occupy Central" movement in 2014, tens of thousands of masked protesters, in opposition to the extradition law amendments, occupied the main roads outside the government headquarters and the Legislative Council Complex in Admiralty, Hong Kong Island, despite repeated orders by police to leave the sites. The chaos brought serious disruptions to traffic and nearby business activity.

Cheung made the appeal in a video speech released after the Legislative Council announced it will postpone the second reading of the bill, as the protesters have blocked the lawmakers' access to the Legislative Council building.

Cheung stressed that the proposed amendments to the Fugitive Offenders Ordinance and Mutual Legal Assistance in Criminal Matters Ordinance only deal with suspects who have committed serious crimes outside the special administrative region.

He reiterated that the SAR government will strictly safeguard the rights of Hong Kong residents and the city's rule of law.

Following his appeal, a government spokesman also issued a statement calling on the public to stay away from the area and remain calm.

In Beijing, Geng Shuang, spokesman for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, reiterated the central government's firm support for the SAR government's proposal to amend the extradition law. Hong Kong's mainstream public opinion is opposed to any acts that will jeopardize the city's prosperity and stability, Geng said.

The protest started in the early hours of Wednesday. Masked protesters equipped with umbrellas and goggles built metal barricades, and some protesters were seen prying bricks from the sidewalk.

In the afternoon, some protesters threw objects at the police, including bottles and trash bins. They also grabbed and rearranged the metal barricades set in front of the building. Tear gas, rubber bullets and pepper spray were used against protesters who stormed the line of police outside the building.

Some police officers were injured during the clashes. More than 20 protesters were injured and taken to hospitals.

Several public events were canceled. Some banks and stores in Admiralty and Wan Chai closed temporarily due to the demonstrations.

Commissioner of Police Stephen Lo Wai-chung strongly condemned the demonstrators' "irresponsible" conduct, which he said endangered the lives of the demonstrators and innocent people.

Lo urged them to stop clashing with police and occupying major roads of the city. He also called on the public to leave the area in an orderly manner for their safety.

The Colloquium of Six Religious Leaders of Hong Kong issued a statement on Wednesday, echoing the call for people to express their concerns through dialogue in a rational and peaceful way.

Hong Kong stocks tumbled on Wednesday as sentiments dimmed over a number of factors, including paralyzed traffic in the city's financial district.

All the other stories are claiming that the west is interfering, and causing these people to violently attack the police.

Apparently in Chinese language papers, they are saying that the 1 million person march was in celebration of being closer to China, and all the petitions people are signing are to show support for the bill.

SMFH FailFish

[Traum]

Bravo, sir! Couldn't have said it better myself. :thumbsup:
No. If you follow the progression of Chinese wealth development from an economic perspective, things really only exploded after China joined the WTO.

The WTO allowed China to become the manufacturing powerhouse it is today. Its further growth until today was possible because it fulfilled NONE of its WTO obligations that it AGREED to do.

And I'm sick and tired of people saying CCP was the greatest thing ever happened to modern China. Take other Asian countries who aren't communist like Taiwan, Singapore (not exactly democratic, but some elements), South Korea... etc.

They have done just fine with democracy. Yes, they all have its share of problems, but they all prosper in their own ways and are major players in the global economy in many industries.

If China had gone democratic, I'm sure it too will have some shitty problems, however, I'm also sure it will be a dominant player in many industries.

Stop praising CCP for what China is today. Have you ever thought of the possibility that China could have been even better without CCP? If democracy would bring nothing but chaos to China, how the fuck the US became world superpower by being democratic?!

[twitchyzero]

if the nationalists never lost to the communists during the civil war, would China be more like Taiwan or India?

g'damn google's spying on my posts...this came up on my feed

https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/society/article/3014256/thousands-hong-kong-re-returnee-migrants-move-back-canada

[Traum]

if the nationalists never lost to the communists during the civil war, would China be more like Taiwan or India?

One of the reasons that CCP won the civil war was because the Nationalists were corrupt AF at the time. Furthermore, Chiang Kai-shek also didn't seem like he was all that good of a person either. It wasn't until CKS' son -- Chiang Ching-kuo -- came into power when citizens' welfare was treated as a priority.

[threezero]

No. If you follow the progression of Chinese wealth development from an economic perspective, things really only exploded after China joined the WTO.

The WTO allowed China to become the manufacturing powerhouse it is today. Its further growth until today was possible because it fulfilled NONE of its WTO obligations that it AGREED to do.

And I'm sick and tired of people saying CCP was the greatest thing ever happened to modern China. Take other Asian countries who aren't communist like Taiwan, Singapore (not exactly democratic, but some elements), South Korea... etc.

They have done just fine with democracy. Yes, they all have its share of problems, but they all prosper in their own ways and are major players in the global economy in many industries.

If China had gone democratic, I'm sure it too will have some shitty problems, however, I'm also sure it will be a dominant player in many industries.

Stop praising CCP for what China is today. Have you ever thought of the possibility that China could have been even better without CCP? If democracy would bring nothing but chaos to China, how the fuck the US became world superpower by being democratic?!

I don't disagree with what you are saying. You and I having been brought up in a democratic society can see this side of the argument. However this is still just a "what if" situation and honestly is a completely westernize view of thing that 99% of mainlander would not understand. Views like this just help CCP promote the "us vs them" mentality and further their propaganda.

What I said in the previous post is fact. Sure CCP may have overstate their important in the success of modern China. Yes WTO and the rest of the world assist China into the powerhouse that it is. The fact is China has ALWAYS been a country rule by king and dynasties. CCP just so happens to be these best dynasty the Chinese people has ever had. Ask most mainlander and they will agree. Propaganda or not, they live through this and from their vantage point that all they know.

You have mentioned that democratic worked for some asian countries. Democracy has also failed some certain other asian countries. You are asking the people to overthrow something they knew have worked for decades for something that may or may not work. Not to mention to do that you have to completely reshuffle the entire society.

WTO may have help China along. But CCP's nationalist policy and corruptness have also directly contribute to majority of their citizen wealth. At least from their point of view.

You are telling the Chinese people that everything they have now, they could of done without CCP. Why dont you give all that up, overthrow the existing establishment and everything they have know. Restart with democracy. I promise it will work!

The western world looks on the outside and wonder why the Chinese people don't just get up and overthrow the government. If you look through history every revolution comes with bloodshed and a general re shuffling of society. Why would a thriving population do that? Because somebody that has the privilege of growing up in a democracy society promise it would work?

Or should they just follow a leader that has done pretty good so far, continue making a good salary and be taken care of when they retire.


That also why the protest in HK is so so so important to the Chinese people. Unlike mainlander, the Hong Konger know. They know what they have and they know what can be. And to them CCP did not grant them the prosperity they have and thus they are willing to throw down for what they believe.

If there is going to be any changes in China. I really believe it starts with Hong Kong. This fight might be futile but it is not in vain.

[SkinnyPupp]

https://twitter.com/HK6127/status/1139085534079475712


transcript of the Now News reporting implies Beijing might be distancing itself from the Carrie Lam government in possible prep for retraction and inevitable fall guy

"according to reports from Beijing-friendly sources, the person who proposed the Bill was Carrie Lam, and not Beijing. That she has misread the will of the people, and unwisely handled the situation, and that the political crisis she has instigated has already damaged HK's international position. And that now that the situation has evolved to this point, it would be difficult for Beijing to meet halfway without sacrificing Carrie Lam"

Edit: original source is NY Times (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/12/world/asia/hong-kong-china.html)

If this is true, looks like they're getting ready to scrap it for now and she'll be the fall guy to be scrapped along with the bill.

Beijing will put up one evil puppet after another, and HK will fight each and every one of them. Every single day until 2047. Then what? I don't know...

[Tim Budong]

https://twitter.com/HK6127/status/1139085534079475712



If this is true, looks like they're getting ready to scrap it for now and she'll be the fall guy to be scrapped along with the bill.

Beijing will put up one evil puppet after another, and HK will fight each and every one of them. Every single day until 2047. Then what? I don't know...

i was gonna post this

small victories if true. Numbers will be bigger than Wednesday if this goes on into the weekend

[SkinnyPupp]

Cops are going to hospitals, arresting people who were injured in the protest. Since they declared it a riot, they can charge them. Thankfully HK still has a fair legal system, so they should be able to fight these charges. If the bill passes, they'll all probably disappear never to be seen again.

[Traum]

Cops are going to hospitals, arresting people who were injured in the protest. Since they declared it a riot, they can charge them. Thankfully HK still has a fair legal system, so they should be able to fight these charges. If the bill passes, they'll all probably disappear never to be seen again.
Sadly, I have to disagree with you on the statement that HK still has a fair legal system. The local courts as well as the "Justice Minister" have pretty much been replaced with puppets that will do whatever bidding their Beijing masters wishes them to do. When you look at the Benny Tai and Occupy Central rulings, it is obvious that those are political persecutions. The kids from the Mong Kok "riot" was handed 7+ yrs of jail time. Only the Supreme Court might still have a chance in delivering justice.

[SkinnyPupp]

Sadly, I have to disagree with you on the statement that HK still has a fair legal system. The local courts as well as the "Justice Minister" have pretty much been replaced with puppets that will do whatever bidding their Beijing masters wishes them to do. When you look at the Benny Tai and Occupy Central rulings, it is obvious that those are political persecutions. The kids from the Mong Kok "riot" was handed 7+ yrs of jail time. Only the Supreme Court might still have a chance in delivering justice.
That's true now that I think of it... I was thinking more in a non-political way still. FeelsBadMan

[DragonChi]

No. If you follow the progression of Chinese wealth development from an economic perspective, things really only exploded after China joined the WTO.

The WTO allowed China to become the manufacturing powerhouse it is today. Its further growth until today was possible because it fulfilled NONE of its WTO obligations that it AGREED to do.

And I'm sick and tired of people saying CCP was the greatest thing ever happened to modern China. Take other Asian countries who aren't communist like Taiwan, Singapore (not exactly democratic, but some elements), South Korea... etc.

They have done just fine with democracy. Yes, they all have its share of problems, but they all prosper in their own ways and are major players in the global economy in many industries.

If China had gone democratic, I'm sure it too will have some shitty problems, however, I'm also sure it will be a dominant player in many industries.

Stop praising CCP for what China is today. Have you ever thought of the possibility that China could have been even better without CCP? If democracy would bring nothing but chaos to China, how the fuck the US became world superpower by being democratic?!

Interesting, I thought that Deng Xiao Ping was widely regarded for economic reforms that led to China's growth. Primarily the change from state owned land and businesses to citizen owned ones.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_property_law#Deng_Xiaoping's_rule

https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2012/01/20/145360447/the-secret-document-that-transformed-china

Do you have further readings on how joining the WTO enabled China to do business with other countries and become a manufacturing power house?

[Badhobz]

Interesting, I thought that Deng Xiao Ping was widely regarded for economic reforms that led to China's growth. Primarily the change from state owned land and businesses to citizen owned ones.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_property_law#Deng_Xiaoping's_rule

https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2012/01/20/145360447/the-secret-document-that-transformed-china

Do you have further readings on how joining the WTO enabled China to do business with other countries and become a manufacturing power house?

You're right. It was primarily Deng's "opening" of capitalism and economic reform that set the foundations for China's economic rise. The WTO wouldn't have accepted China if it wasnt for Deng's opening

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_economic_reform

[yray]

Hey Badhobz, your family got CCP'd during the cultural revolution or the during the fall of the nationalist??

[Badhobz]

Hey Badhobz, your family got CCP'd during the cultural revolution or the during the fall of the nationalist??

Both. When the commies first came in they got stripped and separated. Then in the cultural rev they "reeducated" my grandparents due to their neighbors denouncing them as rich elities. My gramps on my mom side was never the same after that. He pushed my mom to leave Shanghai afterwards so that's why we bounced in 1990 (which was hard as fuck cuz almost nobody was able to immigrate to western nations at that period).
I got no love for the ccp, hell I'm an only child because of their policies.

However it's still my home country. It's still my people and I'm damn proud that China is able to stand on a world footing with western nations. CCP sucks but I ain't going to deny they elevated our people as a whole.

[Hehe]

I don't disagree with what you are saying. You and I having been brought up in a democratic society can see this side of the argument. However this is still just a "what if" situation and honestly is a completely westernize view of thing that 99% of mainlander would not understand. Views like this just help CCP promote the "us vs them" mentality and further their propaganda.

What I said in the previous post is fact. Sure CCP may have overstate their important in the success of modern China. Yes WTO and the rest of the world assist China into the powerhouse that it is. The fact is China has ALWAYS been a country rule by king and dynasties. CCP just so happens to be these best dynasty the Chinese people has ever had. Ask most mainlander and they will agree. Propaganda or not, they live through this and from their vantage point that all they know.

You have mentioned that democratic worked for some asian countries. Democracy has also failed some certain other asian countries. You are asking the people to overthrow something they knew have worked for decades for something that may or may not work. Not to mention to do that you have to completely reshuffle the entire society.

WTO may have help China along. But CCP's nationalist policy and corruptness have also directly contribute to majority of their citizen wealth. At least from their point of view.

You are telling the Chinese people that everything they have now, they could of done without CCP. Why dont you give all that up, overthrow the existing establishment and everything they have know. Restart with democracy. I promise it will work!

The western world looks on the outside and wonder why the Chinese people don't just get up and overthrow the government. If you look through history every revolution comes with bloodshed and a general re shuffling of society. Why would a thriving population do that? Because somebody that has the privilege of growing up in a democracy society promise it would work?

Or should they just follow a leader that has done pretty good so far, continue making a good salary and be taken care of when they retire.


That also why the protest in HK is so so so important to the Chinese people. Unlike mainlander, the Hong Konger know. They know what they have and they know what can be. And to them CCP did not grant them the prosperity they have and thus they are willing to throw down for what they believe.

If there is going to be any changes in China. I really believe it starts with Hong Kong. This fight might be futile but it is not in vain.

I get what you are saying, but I'd put it this way... people who I encounter the most saying that without CCP, China wouldn't be like this blah blah blah are 99% born and bred Chinese.

That is the biggest hypocrisy I've ever heard and really show how successful CCP is at brainwashing Chinese citizens.

In their opinion, they are questioning democracy while they have NEVER EVER had democracy. How the fuck can you remotely comment on something you have never experienced? They have NO idea about the power of democracy. It's about accountability (of those in power), freedom, choice, fairness... and so much more.

As of right now, the CCP can do whatever the fuck they want and never have repercussions about their decisions. Worse, with the recent constitution amendment, Xi can stay indefinitely in power. And you know what they say... with absolute power, comes absolute corruption.

[Hondaracer]

You can’t honestly think China would be where they are today if they had a true democracy. Wouldn’t happen

One of the biggest reasons why they are where they are is that govt. and “private” industry are essentially one. Huawei and all these GIGANTIC companies as well as resource development, oil and gas, etc. are all state backed

The wealth and influence of the nation and it’s govt. Would be nothing compared to this current blurred line of public/private interests

Look at what they are doing all over Africa, sponsoring massive infrastructure projects to essentially get their foot in the door on resource development. Literally the only other country that does this on this scale is Russia, and they are both this quasi “free” state. :/

[68style]

Cops are going to hospitals, arresting people who were injured in the protest. Since they declared it a riot, they can charge them. Thankfully HK still has a fair legal system, so they should be able to fight these charges. If the bill passes, they'll all probably disappear never to be seen again.

Do you have a source for this? I am interested in this particular topic.

[twdm]

Both. When the commies first came in they got stripped and separated. Then in the cultural rev they "reeducated" my grandparents due to their neighbors denouncing them as rich elities. My gramps on my mom side was never the same after that. He pushed my mom to leave Shanghai afterwards so that's why we bounced in 1990 (which was hard as fuck cuz almost nobody was able to immigrate to western nations at that period).
I got no love for the ccp, hell I'm an only child because of their policies.

However it's still my home country. It's still my people and I'm damn proud that China is able to stand on a world footing with western nations. CCP sucks but I ain't going to deny they elevated our people as a whole.
If you're so proud, then why aren't you back there supporting your supposedly wonderful country. It's a bit rich when someone who is proud of their despotic country but decides they rather bail and live in a free and democratic country.

[underscore]

https://i.imgur.com/D27cOmo.jpg

Thanks for the circle, I would've missed it otherwise.

[Badhobz]

If you're so proud, then why aren't you back there supporting your supposedly wonderful country. It's a bit rich when someone who is proud of their despotic country but decides they rather bail and live in a free and democratic country.

You're fucking stupid.

[mickz]

This is fucking crazy!!! the wife and her family is all up in arms about this shit too

But i dont understand what the huge deal is.

1) as long as you dont do any crime, this new legislation wont apply to you

2) so what if your extradited to China, it was bound to happen in 50 years after 1997 anyways.

3) HK is CHINA, it has been since 1997. This one country 2 system bullshit is just a farce. i dont think anyone would believe the CCP would honor these agreements and this gradual erosion of HK's status is pointless. Either just take over the damn thing already, or let HK live in their bubble in perpetuity. Why 50 years!? what that going to do anyways.

4) Economically HK has been on a downwards path ever since 1997 as CCP is more focused on developing Shanghai, Beijing, Shenzhen, etc. This gives HK even less leverage as the economical motivators move more to the core mainland cities.

Either just take everything over already and roll in your god damn tanks, or leave it the fuck alone. Let HK play their democracy game, it doesnt hurt overall chinese GDP and it shows that China is flexible on a world stage.

This is the most ignorant post I've ever read on RS.

[SkinnyPupp]

Do you have a source for this? I am interested in this particular topic.

SCMP reporter (impressive considering the paper is owned by a Communist company)

https://twitter.com/alvinllum/status/1139031760484913157

https://twitter.com/alvinllum/status/1139068387814830081

Edit: Here's the actual report (https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/law-and-crime/article/3014356/teacher-prominent-hong-kong-school-among-four-arrested)

[DragonChi]

Both. When the commies first came in they got stripped and separated. Then in the cultural rev they "reeducated" my grandparents due to their neighbors denouncing them as rich elities. My gramps on my mom side was never the same after that. He pushed my mom to leave Shanghai afterwards so that's why we bounced in 1990 (which was hard as fuck cuz almost nobody was able to immigrate to western nations at that period).
I got no love for the ccp, hell I'm an only child because of their policies.

However it's still my home country. It's still my people and I'm damn proud that China is able to stand on a world footing with western nations. CCP sucks but I ain't going to deny they elevated our people as a whole.

Would you ever consider immigrating back to China? If not, what would have to change for you to make the move?

I'm asking out of genuine curiosity.

Since you say you are proud of China, but at the same time despise them for what they did to your family. As anyone would.

China becoming a super power definitely makes me proud to be Chinese, no doubt about it. But it's worrying how it's turning into a dystopian state. I can only hope that with economic freedoms, it relaxes it's grip on societal freedoms, as history has shown in other countries. As with other dominant countries through out history, some really bad shit had to go down for unity before things got better.

[DragonChi]

I get what you are saying, but I'd put it this way... people who I encounter the most saying that without CCP, China wouldn't be like this blah blah blah are 99% born and bred Chinese.

That is the biggest hypocrisy I've ever heard and really show how successful CCP is at brainwashing Chinese citizens.

In their opinion, they are questioning democracy while they have NEVER EVER had democracy. How the fuck can you remotely comment on something you have never experienced? They have NO idea about the power of democracy. It's about accountability (of those in power), freedom, choice, fairness... and so much more.

As of right now, the CCP can do whatever the fuck they want and never have repercussions about their decisions. Worse, with the recent constitution amendment, Xi can stay indefinitely in power. And you know what they say... with absolute power, comes absolute corruption.

You could say the same for those of us who have never tasted true communism? lol. Please, correct me if that's illogical.

[SkinnyPupp]

You could say the same for those of us who have never tasted true communism? lol. Please, correct me if that's illogical.
I think what a lot of people don't realize is that Chinese citizens don't have access to any information that the CCP doesn't want them to have. They are VERY VERY strict. We of course all know that they censor websites and ban any mention of the Tienanmen Square Massacre, but it goes so far beyond that. Every little bit of information is blocked out. If some gets through, they twist and form it at their will.

That's why the typical every day Mainland China person, who is just a regular good person, thinks outrageous things like this. They think all the marches in Hong Kong on Handover day are in support of China. They think the petitions being signed are to show support for the bill. They think any dissent is due to direct influence from the West.

This is why I would never, ever argue with a mainland person. It's like arguing with a Christian about religion. There's no point. There's no logic.

That's why someone who grew up in an environment of open education and free information can have opinions on communism vs democracy, but someone in a closed system can't really.

It's also why I am extra disappointed when I see some people in here ignorantly supporting the communists, beyond just being pragmatic about it (the way threezero is). It's embarrassing to see a Canadian think that way. Badhobz should be ashamed of himself.

[bomberR17]

HK should just break off and declare independence. Use that million+ population to good use. Get support from all the asian community around the world. If Kosovo can do it with less population, HK should be able do. If all else fails, at least have died trying.

[Badhobz]

Would you ever consider immigrating back to China? If not, what would have to change for you to make the move?

I'm asking out of genuine curiosity.

Since you say you are proud of China, but at the same time despise them for what they did to your family. As anyone would.

China becoming a super power definitely makes me proud to be Chinese, no doubt about it. But it's worrying how it's turning into a dystopian state. I can only hope that with economic freedoms, it relaxes it's grip on societal freedoms, as history has shown in other countries. As with other dominant countries through out history, some really bad shit had to go down for unity before things got better.

At this point i dont think id ever move back. Unless the country experiences some fundamental reforms in environmental protection, consumer protection, health and education, certain basic freedoms, etc that we have here in the west, it just doesnt appeal to me. I used to spend quite a bit of time back home in Shanghai due to work, i know what its like there and frankly it's disappointing. They have money sure but they are quite a few years behind in terms of social decency and conscience.

Im worried too that it'll all just blow up once the money stops flowing. Thats really the only way Xi and his ilk can stay in power. As long as the money flows and people are getting wealthy, they'll ignore all the other issues around them. As Deng said, it doesn't matter if the cat is black or white, as long as it catches mice, then it's a good cat.

They've internalized this philosophy to the extent where the average citizen has given up almost everything of social value to pursue materialism. Thats a huge CCP failing. Look at what they did to the historic sites around the 3 gorges dam. That's thousands of years of Chinese history carelessly flooded to provide electricity to fund more materialism. That's the real friggin crime. We are sacrificing our own cultural identity and history to pursue a western more lifestyle and that's ultimately disastrous in a nation of 1.5 billion.

[DragonChi]

3 Gorges is a drop in the bucket compared to the cultural revolution, in terms of wiping out Chinese history.

I really don't see China's economic growth stopping. Considering the influence they're projecting globally. The issue now is that they have a aging population and in 30 years, with their birth rate, they might have a labour shortage. I don't think there will ever be a complete disappearance of Chinese culture, we're too damned proud as a people to give it up, no matter how much western influence there is. I think both of us have been taught by our parents what it is to be a Chinese person.

[DragonChi]

I think what a lot of people don't realize is that Chinese citizens don't have access to any information that the CCP doesn't want them to have. They are VERY VERY strict. We of course all know that they censor websites and ban any mention of the Tienanmen Square Massacre, but it goes so far beyond that. Every little bit of information is blocked out. If some gets through, they twist and form it at their will.

That's why the typical every day Mainland China person, who is just a regular good person, thinks outrageous things like this. They think all the marches in Hong Kong on Handover day are in support of China. They think the petitions being signed are to show support for the bill. They think any dissent is due to direct influence from the West.

This is why I would never, ever argue with a mainland person. It's like arguing with a Christian about religion. There's no point. There's no logic.

That's why someone who grew up in an environment of open education and free information can have opinions on communism vs democracy, but someone in a closed system can't really.

It's also why I am extra disappointed when I see some people in here ignorantly supporting the communists, beyond just being pragmatic about it (the way threezero is). It's embarrassing to see a Canadian think that way. Badhobz should be ashamed of himself.

There are crazy ass Christians, and reasonable Christians. As there are ultra nationalist mainlanders. Though, the ultranationalists might be more common given their up bringing. I've never had to argue with one, so I don't know how pointless it is. I'll take your word for it, I'm sure you've encountered a few.

I've encountered first hand the great firewall. It's a fucken bitch. Though, in their growth phase, it might be necessary to prevent another civil war. Chinese aggression is a real thing, and I would have no doubt it would set them back the last 50 years if some nut job Chinese decided to oust Xi. Then we're in for a real spiral into depression.

TBH, I think a democratic China would pretty much be Taiwan. Taiwanese are one of the most hospitable and nice people I've met. Their kindness is legendary. They do have a lot of discord between parties and groups, but they're economically well off. Albeit, with help from the United States. It's weird, because US doesn't even recognize Taiwan as an independent country, but a part of China.

[SkinnyPupp]

3 Gorges us a drop in the bucket compared to the cultural revolution, in terms of wiping out Chinese history.

I really don't see China's economic growth stopping. Considering the influence they're projecting globally. The issue now is that they have a aging population and in 30 years, with their birth rate, they might have a labour shortage. I don't think there will ever be a complete disappearance of Chinese culture, we're too damned proud as a people to give it up, no matter how much western influence there is. I think both of us have been taught by our parents what it is to be a Chinese person.
3 Gorges isn't even close to being a drop in the bucket. They literally wiped away most of their amazing history and culture to build this new one based on materialism and loyalty to the cultish Party.

[DragonChi]

The massive project [3 gorges] sets records for number of people displaced (more than 1.2 million), number of cities and towns flooded (13 cities, 140 towns, 1,350 villages), and length of reservoir (more than 600 kilometers).

vs

In a newly published biography of Mao Zedong by two UK authors, the estimated totality of death is discussed: “at least 3 million people died violent deaths and post-Mao leaders acknowledged that 100 million people, one-ninth of the entire population, suffered in one way or another”

In addition to the targeted book, artifact, and temple destruction of the revolution.

Just saying.

Though, I will agree that both are a significant sacrifice in the pursuit of modernization.

[CharlesInCharge]

At this point i dont think id ever move back. Unless the country experiences some fundamental reforms in environmental protection, consumer protection, health and education, certain basic freedoms, etc that we have here in the west, it just doesnt appeal to me. I used to spend quite a bit of time back home in Shanghai due to work, i know what its like there and frankly it's disappointing. They have money sure but they are quite a few years behind in terms of social decency and conscience.

....What western freedoms are being denied in China and how does western social decency and conscience trump Chinese ones?

Western Freedoms

Just this week anyone can now report children getting molested... much civilized, advanced thinking, such progress.
https://i.imgur.com/FJi5n1o.jpg

Drag child simulates sex moves for ogling adults.
twitter.com/Gpalmer_32/status/1137434724140556289

Lastly Hong Kong is an Anglo Zionist pawn nation. Pro Hong Kong members are not much different from brainwashed Americans who come from a terrorist nation but think they live in the most righteous and free nation on earth.

[SkinnyPupp]

Do I have to ban you from this thread too?

[CharlesInCharge]

Cant bring facts to the table to win your argument?

[bomberR17]

Do I have to ban you from this thread too?

Isn't that very act, the thing people are protesting about? Let's ban the people you disagree with! :considered:

[DragonChi]

What western freedoms are being denied in China and how does western social decency and conscience trump Chinese ones?

Western Freedoms

Just this week anyone can now report children getting molested... much civilized, advanced thinking, such progress.
https://i.imgur.com/FJi5n1o.jpg

Drag child simulates sex moves for ogling adults.
twitter.com/Gpalmer_32/status/1137434724140556289

Lastly Hong Kong is an Anglo Zionist pawn nation. Pro Hong Kong members are not much different from brainwashed Americans who come from a terrorist nation but think they live in the most righteous and free nation on earth.

Hey!
'Murrica delivers freedom and liberty to countries in the form of tanks, drone strikes, and ninja missiles. :lol now gtfo!

[SkinnyPupp]

Isn't that very act, the thing people are protesting about? Let's ban the people you disagree with! :considered:
Yeah I knew someone would say that LUL But no, this has nothing to do with disagreeing. If you know anything about CiC's history, you know that.

Also, this isn't a country, it's a private forum with rules people agree to when they come in here.

[Badhobz]

It's just Charles being Charles. I agree with skinny here.

[Raid3n]

doesn't matter what it is, with CIC it's always the zionists.

[SkinnyPupp]

And just like that, thread derailed. That's why I normally ban him from these threads. It's just nonsense

[mickz]

The fuck are you talking about, I was being nice, but I've had it with your bullshit.

HK had it way better than the rest of China for a very long time. When the CCP came into my grandparents home in Shanghai, they took out my family and stripped them of all their worldly possessions because they were deemed an elite. They sent half my family off to work in some god damn shithole and we've never heard from them again. What you are "sort of" going through now, millions of Chinese families have already gone through. Your experiences right now are a fucking cake walk compared to the shit people endured and are still enduring back in mainland China. My family is still there. They've thrived, they were able to adapt in the system and when i ask them about coming to Canada, they don't even want to.

You do know the 1.5 billion rest of the Chinese people dont give a fuck about your little problem right? the ones that could have all left, the ones who are there have already made peace or is able to work the system to ensure their families have survived and prospered. All these rich mainlanders didnt just come out of nowhere. The system in China isnt perfect but it raised the general standard of living for our entire ethnic group. Yeah there's bound to be issues along the way, but trust me, you guys never had it as bad as we did. 50 year is the agreed upon term. When that's up, legally they can do whatever the want. Technically, they can do whatever the fuck they want right now and there isnt a god damn thing you can do about it because you guys have no support.

You know whos the most elitist? FUCKING HK people. You guys always talking down about mainlanders, always trying to set yourself apart, always thinking you're different and somehow better than mainlanders. YOU ARE NOT DIFFERENT, NOT THE ANYMORE. WAKE THE FUCK UP, you're not SPECIAL. OUR SHITTY OPPRESSIVE GOVERNMENT DONT HAVE TO ACCOMMODATE YOUR ASS, HK is just a city in CHINA along with many other cities we have. You might not like the rest of the family, but we are your family. YOU ARE CHINESE, you live in CHINA and its time the chickens came home to the roost.

I'm sorry to hear that you're ok with laying down to die when you're faced with adversity. People in Hong Kong don't feel that way. They are fighting for their freedom. They're afraid China will have the power to send them away just for speaking up.

How would you feel if you woke up every morning worried about whether or not a Chinese official would come to your door to take you away because you wrote an article criticizing the government?

The cultural norms and values between the countries are too different. Do you understand why the people of Hong Kong don't want to associate themselves with Mainland China? It's instances like these.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXaxGB9CBcE

Hong Kong and China doesn't speak the same language, use the same currency or drive on the same side of the road. I'll continue to acknowledge both as separate countries.

[whitev70r]

Here you go ... for anyone who wants to 'do something about this'.

Sat 11:00 China consulate on Granville.

http://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/following-hong-kong-unrest-rally-set-for-saturday-in-vancouver

[Badhobz]

I'm sorry to hear that you're ok with laying down to die when you're faced with adversity. People in Hong Kong don't feel that way. They are fighting for their freedom. They're afraid China will have the power to send them away just for speaking up.

They have this power now to be honest. Dont you recall an incident a while ago where they found this bookstore in HK that was selling critical works of Xi and Deng? they sent that poor guy off somewhere and i dont think hes been allowed back since.

How would you feel if you woke up every morning worried about whether or not a Chinese official would come to your door to take you away because you wrote an article criticizing the government?
About the same as what the rest of the 1.5 billion individuals in our country feels every day. Is something like this worth dying for? especially when in 30 years it'll be taken away anyways. I don't want to see more of my chinese brothers and sisters dying for nothing. I don't want to see a civil war within our country over futile cries of freedom in an oppressive state. Change and freedom are admirable, but this isnt going to work. Read up on Tai Ping rebellion, and all the other protests against the Qing dynasty. You need that kind of countrywide suffering for the people to stand up against their government.

The cultural norms and values between the countries are too different. Do you understand why the people of Hong Kong don't want to associate themselves with Mainland China? It's instances like these.
Exactly why you guys have no popular support in mainland China. Exactly why these protests arent going to work. HK and its people always use mainlanders as some sort of a boogie man. You guys created this rift when you should have started healing it since 97. Instead, this constant emphasis of us vs them has sparked more hatred and divisions. This doesnt help your cause at all. Independence is impossible, China wont let you. You dont have enough military power or international support to force a two system in perpetuity like Taiwan. Ultimately you are fighting to keep this bullshit farce for another 30 years but then what? Is it worth the people dying on the street and civil havoc?

Hong Kong and China doesn't speak the same language, use the same currency or drive on the same side of the road. I'll continue to acknowledge both as separate countries.

Cantonese is Cantonese. You do speak the same damn language. If you cannot even concede that, then its just more HK elitism FailFish

[bcedhk]

Exactly why you guys have no popular support in mainland China. Exactly why these protests arent going to work. HK and its people always use mainlanders as some sort of a boogie man. You guys created this rift when you should have started healing it since 97. Instead, this constant emphasis of us vs them has sparked more hatred and divisions. This doesnt help your cause at all. Independence is impossible, China wont let you. You dont have enough military power or international support to force a two system in perpetuity like Taiwan. Ultimately you are fighting to keep this bullshit farce for another 30 years but then what? Is it worth the people dying on the street and civil havoc?

Cantonese is Cantonese. You do speak the same damn language. If you cannot even concede that, then its just more HK elitism FailFish


How would you know that? Most who do support Hong Kong in China either get hidden, jailed or immigrate (Just look at all the activist lawyers who have disappeared in the past few years). The popular opinion in China is based on CCP's control.

30 years is 30 years. But what China is doing is trying to fast track the change in 3 weeks. Once this bill is passed, most are certain they will try to fast track Article 23 too. The extradition bill will inevitably be passed, but not at this time.

[68style]

Badhobz, I think your primary issue is that you are a pacifist/opportunist... and there is nothing inherently wrong with that unless you also believe everyone else should be the same or assist in the changing of others to your belief structure.

Many people would rather die than be oppressed. That is their right.

Lots of people could have laid down in France or Netherlands or Poland during WW1 and WW2 and just accepted their German oppressors were stronger than them and that it's better to live under the Nazi regime as long as they were alive. I'm sure lots of people did decide to learn German and salute a monster. But many others decided to put their lives on the line and many of them died for what they believed in... and the rest of the world eventually woke up and realized what was happening too and decided to intervene on the side of justice.

It might be too bad for HK because they legally do belong to China so the international community would have a hard time seeing it as an "invasion" per-say... and that is the ONLY leg Taiwan has to stand on. Taiwan wouldn't last a proverbial 5 minutes in a military fight with China, but you can damn well bet Europe, Australia and North America would be there immediately and China would have its hands extremely full at that point.

The problem with choosing to live in an oppressive regime with loose human rights fundamentals is that 99% of the time you might be "okay" as long as you don't stick out too much or colour outside the lines at all... keep a low profile and "don't do anything wrong"... but what do you do when the line for what's right/wrong shifts without any warning and you happen to be standing on the wrong side of the line that particular day? What if someone doesn't like you and frames you? Every day of your life in a place like China is essentially a reverse lottery where the "winner" gets scooped up by the government and disappeared. Every day there's some chance that could be you... that's the reality of living in a place where there is no Charter of Rights and Freedoms and things like due process and burden of proof simply do not exist.

[twdm]

You're fucking stupid.
And you're a fucking pussy. Don't tell people to bend over and take it up the ass when you have zero vested interest in the topic. Well I guess I'm not too surprised since your family has a history of taking it up the ass without complaint.

(probably gonna get modded, but worth it)

Does Beijing want to create another Tibet/Xinjiang? Because this is how you do it.

[Hehe]

Interesting, I thought that Deng Xiao Ping was widely regarded for economic reforms that led to China's growth. Primarily the change from state owned land and businesses to citizen owned ones.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_property_law#Deng_Xiaoping's_rule

https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2012/01/20/145360447/the-secret-document-that-transformed-china

Do you have further readings on how joining the WTO enabled China to do business with other countries and become a manufacturing power house?

You can google China WTO Obligation and there should be quite a few notes, and even academic papers like this one (https://www.jstor.org/stable/44123129?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents) that digs deeper into it.

But the basic is that WTO allowed China to access the world market in a way not possible before by taking many advantages of WTO agreements. That lower barrier of entry of goods to other countries allowed China to really explode as they are now able to ship almost anything they make anywhere in the most cost-effective way possible.

In return, China was supposed to reform its economy to open itself up to all foreign competitors since WTO idea is to allow each and every member country to do what they are most efficient in.

Nonetheless, China did not do that. They wanted all for themselves and basically weaponized its market and use it for its benefits (as we can see first hand with what China is doing to Canadian agriculture sector).

Not just on the physical ground, but also the digital... they have the great firewall, which locked out all major internet giants (FB, Google... etc) and built their own version (WeChat/Tencent, Baidu... etc). If such barrier didn't exist, WeChat is no competition to Whatsapp/Line/Instagram. But since they are fully protected, they were able to become the giant they are today.

Hence I'm in full support of the trade war with China even though I don't like Trump. It's time for China to live up to its words and do what they were supposed to do. They can't have the cake and eat it too. If you look at many of the demands that US is asking in the trade negotiation, many of them were just part of the WTO deal... just with an enforcing mechanism attached (which China strongly disagree... because most likely, they are going to cheat like a mice... but with an enforcing mechanism/pre-agreed punishments, they wouldn't be able to cheat it).

[Bouncing Bettys]

I have to admit I have been pretty ignorant of the relationship between Hong Kong and China. When I would read/hear the term Mainlander used in a derogatory way when compared to someone from HK, I assumed it was like someone from from Vancouver calling someone from the Interior a hick/redneck - class vs low class, educated vs uneducated, etc. It is obviously much more complex than that, I just never gave it much thought until now.

Since British Colonialism played a part in where the HK/China relationship is today, I'm curious to know how that colonial past is regarded today? How was it viewed while under British control? Would HKers have preferred the lease be extended? In the long run did it end up helping democracy and change get a toe hold in China or did it exacerbate relations?

[SkinnyPupp]

I have to admit I have been pretty ignorant of the relationship between Hong Kong and China. When I would read/hear the term Mainlander used in a derogatory way when compared to someone from HK, I assumed it was like someone from from Vancouver calling someone from the Interior a hick/redneck - class vs low class, educated vs uneducated, etc. It is obviously much more complex than that, I just never gave it much thought until now.

Since British Colonialism played a part in where the HK/China relationship is today, I'm curious to know how that colonial past is regarded today? How was it viewed while under British control? Would HKers have preferred the lease be extended? In the long run did it end up helping democracy and change get a toe hold in China or did it exacerbate relations?
I think the four options, notwithstanding how viable they are, are generally supported in this order:

1) Become an Republic city-state, like Singapore. Work with China in some ways that are beneficial to both countries (they'd need to, there's not enough resources for Hong Kong to survive without relying on China in some way)

2) Join the Republic of China. Similar to above, ROC would work with PRC. Obviously not possible, since PRC doesn't recognize the ROC as a state at all.

3) Become a state of UK again. Not the most desirable option, and while many great countries of today have horrible colonial pasts, many see it as being better than what we have now. Some romanticize it, and I think some kind of use it to stick it in pro-Beijingers' faces. See how much we hate you? We'd rather be a colony again!

4) Move to another country

9998) Die

9999) Join China

[Traum]

Exactly why you guys have no popular support in mainland China. Exactly why these protests arent going to work. HK and its people always use mainlanders as some sort of a boogie man. You guys created this rift when you should have started healing it since 97. Instead, this constant emphasis of us vs them has sparked more hatred and divisions. This doesnt help your cause at all. Independence is impossible, China wont let you. You dont have enough military power or international support to force a two system in perpetuity like Taiwan. Ultimately you are fighting to keep this bullshit farce for another 30 years but then what? Is it worth the people dying on the street and civil havoc?

Badhobz,

I don't want to speculate on why you have the impression that Hong Kong people did not like China prior to the 97 change over. But that is incorrect. You are a smart and sensible guy, so please familiarize yourself more with the history and sentiments of the past Hong Kong people -- esp if you look at it during the late 70's all the way up to ~2003.

There is no mistakening that during that era, Hong Kong people habitually poke fun at how backwards and unsophisticated Mainlander are. For the most part, I would just say that this is an unfortunate trait among Hong Kong people back then. But as soon as you look at the actual actions or things that they do, Hong Kong back then overwhelming love and support China. When my older cousins were little, my grandma regularly mails and personally delivers a shxt ton of supplies back to our "family village". In our cases, this typical included food and clothing, although on occasion, small electric appliances (up to CRT TVs with maybe 17 - 19" screen sizes) would also be brought back (to the family village) in person. My grandma, uncles, and older cousin would all wear multiple layers of clothing in addition to the luggage on the way up, and only come back home (to Hong Kong) with empty red-white-blue luggage bags and nothing more than a top, pants, and usually shoes. This was a common scene at least up to the mid 80's.

When Deng brought in economic reforms, the manufacturing sector in Hong Kong embraced it, and mass moved their factories back to China. Along with the factories, they also brought their capital and business expertise to China. Granted, they were not solely doing this out of the goodness of their hearts, but the undeniable fact was, Hong Kong capital made up for the largest portion of "external" investment for a very long time in China's history.

The 89 Tiananmen Massacre certainly scared a lot of people, but in the lead up to the 97 hand over, most people in Hong Kong were in favour of "returning to China". They certainly wanted assurrances and escape routes. But they still generally think favourably of China. They had generally favourable impressions of Chinese leaders. They liked Emperor Jiang and VP Zhu better than they like the HK CEO Tung Chi-wah. The vast majority of people considered themselves to be both Chinese as well as Hong Kongers. And that positive impression of China has generally continued up to about 2003.

The SARS outbreak, financial crisis, and subsequent mass protest in 2002 - 2003 spooked China. Shortly after that, China changed its policy towards Hong Kong, and tries to impose its iron grip on an increasing number of aspects. Prior to that, China only gave minimal intervention in Hong Kong's affaris.

The irony was, the more China tried to tighten its grip on Hong Kong, the more Hong Kong resisted, and the more opinions shifted to start disliking China. The current generation of youngers generally do not consider themselves to be Chinese because it has a negative connotation to it, and instead consider themselves to be Hong Kongers.


Cantonese is Cantonese. You do speak the same damn language. If you cannot even concede that, then its just more HK elitism FailFish
Cantonese and Mandarin have a relationship that is more similar to how English, French, Spanish, and German are, than how UK English, US English, and Australian English are. UK English, US English, and Australian English are all different variants of English. But English, French, Spanish, and German are similar only in the sense that they are all Latin-based languages. Cantonese and Mardarin may share the same character set (assuming you look past the traditional vs simplified characters), but an exclusive Cantonese speaker would not be able to understand an exclusive Mandarin speaker and vice versa.

[BIC_BAWS]

https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/c0kmhy/this_lady_is_a_hero_she_was_bravely_facing_a/

Video: This lady is a hero. She was bravely facing a group of police, pursuing them to stop beating the youth. Meanwhile the police threw tear gas to the protesters and a shot was opened. This lady finally was hit by pepper spray by another police directly to her eyes.


Edit: English subs: https://imgur.com/gallery/uIdjZob


SkinnyPup, correct me if I'm wrong.

According to my relatives in HK, there are two (now three) groups.

1. Peaceful protestors
2. Violent protestors who live on chaotic evil - they come out at night
3. Pissed off Moms

From what I've heard, the police have been attacking Group 1 (and Group 2). Granted, Group 1 and Group 2 are pretty hard to differentiate in the heat of things. And there's varying opinions, ie. Group 2 deserves to be attacked by cops. But now, there's Group 3 coming out, because you have "kids walking around - peacefully (group 2)" who are being attack by police. See video.

This is all kind of fucked up. And in regards to the previous posts about the police, I do believe that most of the police acting in this way are from China. My family has a long history in HKPD, and they're strongly saying that HKPD wouldn't normally act this way. Idk if this is true or not, but HKPD typically has the least corruption/fucked up police force, as compared to even Western countries.

[Traum]

BIC_BAWS,

Don't forget a small but important group that have received a good beating from the HK Police -- the press. Much like the pissed off moms, I think the press have turned into a major PITA and PR disaster for the HKPD.

(Disclaimer -- I am totally on the protester's side.)

As far as the HKPD's brutality is concerned, I am not surprised by how a mere change of leadership can result in that. It also doesn't help when you have "team leaders" like this for the special ops units:

https://www.facebook.com/RichScotford5/photos/a.567649076669746/1856113951156579/
https://www.facebook.com/RichScotford5/photos/a.567649076669746/1857116477722993/

[BIC_BAWS]

Can someone who can check validity of this?

Apply Daily News apparently found out that Group 1/2 is funded by the US (LOL), some kind of civic unrest fund. Which their site was conveniently hacked shortly finding this out. More specifically, the 1 million protestors were supposedly given a free lunch and $1000.00 HKD. Violent protestors were given helmets, masks, weapons, lunch and $1000 HKD.

Also note on the police, on the night of the civil unrest (Group 2 violent protestors), all HKPD were given an order to be on stand-by/go out there and disperse the area. This was according to my dad's co-worker's brother who is HKPD. If you're a cop, you're a cop - you follow orders.


Edit: I would look into Apple Daily News myself, but I can't read LMAO

[Badhobz]

The current generation of youngers generally do not consider themselves to be Chinese because it has a negative connotation to it, and instead consider themselves to be Hong Kongers.

That's what im worried about man. This rift that's started. Im worried these are the people that'll take it too far and ultimately cause another tianmen square situation in hong kong. As 68styles puts it, some of these guys are willing to fight and die to hold on to their cause. My wife's family is all based in HK and im quite worried that they will be severely impacted by all of this if it continues to go south.

p.s. Traum, thank you for your perspectives on pre 97. From most of the interactions ive had with HKers, this hasnt been the case as they either all fled before 1997 (all the while yelling at the mainlanders and creating this image that as soon as 97 hit, HK would have been destroyed) or these more militant HKers who refuses to even identify as Chinese.


Cantonese and Mandarin have a relationship that is more similar to how English, French, Spanish, and German are, than how UK English, US English, and Australian English are. UK English, US English, and Australian English are all different variants of English. But English, French, Spanish, and German are similar only in the sense that they are all Latin-based languages. Cantonese and Mardarin may share the same character set (assuming you look past the traditional vs simplified characters), but an exclusive Cantonese speaker would not be able to understand an exclusive Mandarin speaker and vice versa.

No, im just saying the rest of Guangdong province also speaks Cantonese (or a close form of it) and that linguistically it's still Chinese. Although the government/courts/and other institutions are conducted in English, the primary form of communication is Cantonese which is a dialect of Chinese like many other dialects. To say that its a different language is unreasonable.

[Badhobz]

Can someone who can check validity of this?

Apply Daily News apparently found out that Group 1/2 is funded by the US (LOL), some kind of civic unrest fund. Which their site was conveniently hacked shortly finding this out. More specifically, the 1 million protestors were supposedly given a free lunch and $1000.00 HKD. Violent protestors were given helmets, masks, weapons, lunch and $1000 HKD.

Also note on the police, on the night of the civil unrest (Group 2 violent protestors), all HKPD were given an order to be on stand-by/go out there and disperse the area. This was according to my dad's co-worker's brother who is HKPD. If you're a cop, you're a cop - you follow orders.


Edit: I would look into Apple Daily News myself, but I can't read LMAO
bro this reak of CCP propaganda bullshit. WutFace

It looks like apple daily news hasnt been doing to well financially. I wouldnt be surprised if the CCP started to influence their reporting by giving them money.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Daily#Political_pressures

[yray]

apple daily is anti china LOL

its like what WSJ/CNN is to trump

[bcedhk]

bro this reak of CCP propaganda bullshit. WutFace

It looks like apple daily news hasnt been doing to well financially. I wouldnt be surprised if the CCP started to influence their reporting by giving them money.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Daily#Political_pressures

wat. apple daily has always and still is anti-china. The owner is as far left and anti-china as you can be when it comes to big time CEO's in HK.

That said, if you look at video clips, you can tell a percentage of the youths look like MK boys (youth gangsters), and they were there mainly to start shit with the police.

[Badhobz]

So you guys believe that the US funding groups of protesters and paying people off to stirr shit up ? This sounds like communist propaganda to me, apple daily or not.

[BIC_BAWS]

Not to derail from thread too much, but as far fetched as it sounds, there's evidence across the board that CIA has been doing this. Mostly out in the middle east tho. I believe they funded ISIS (https://www.globalresearch.ca/america-created-al-qaeda-and-the-isis-terror-group/5402881)(???)



So I wouldn't find it surprising if the CIA funded the violent protestors too.

[SkinnyPupp]

Can someone who can check validity of this?

Apply Daily News apparently found out that Group 1/2 is funded by the US (LOL), some kind of civic unrest fund. Which their site was conveniently hacked shortly finding this out. More specifically, the 1 million protestors were supposedly given a free lunch and $1000.00 HKD. Violent protestors were given helmets, masks, weapons, lunch and $1000 HKD.

Also note on the police, on the night of the civil unrest (Group 2 violent protestors), all HKPD were given an order to be on stand-by/go out there and disperse the area. This was according to my dad's co-worker's brother who is HKPD. If you're a cop, you're a cop - you follow orders.


Edit: I would look into Apple Daily News myself, but I can't read LMAO
I wouldn't be surprised to see a pro-Beijing newspaper reporting this fake news, but not Apple Daily EleGiggle Not even SCMP would report that garbage. They're owned by Beijing but have been pretty neutral so far. Just avoid their opinions columns.

If you were wondering, the English language independent newspaper (read: not pro-Beijing) is HK Free Press (https://www.hongkongfp.com/)

[BIC_BAWS]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L84Ra9WWajk


"violent protestors" "all one group" LOL

[SkinnyPupp]

What's funny is that pro-Beijing groups LITERALLY DO THIS in Hong Kong all the time. They usually go to senior centres and transport groups of old people to protest (or VOTE) with promises of money and other incentives. That's probably where they got the idea from LUL

[SkinnyPupp]

And as for this "chaotic group" of violent protesters.. I don't see it. Not this time. I see protesters on the front line trying to hold the line, but most of, if not all of, the violence is going in one direction.

I won't be surprised to see some agent provocateurs trying to stir shit up. They did that during the Umbrella Movement, reports of super violent protesters, and when others tried to get them to stop, they couldn't speak a word of Canto

[BIC_BAWS]

From what I read, it all started with a man who killed his girlfriend in Taiwan, then he travelled back to Hong Kong and Taiwan could not extradite him back for prosecution. He was then charged in HK with a lesser crime, money laundering and will get like 29 months in jail.


Thanks to SkinnyPup, I've been exploring HKFP and found this: https://twitter.com/HongKongFP/status/1139425955603107840


Michael Tien has become the first pro-Beijing legislator to openly call for a delay of the extradition bill.



"Taiwan has said it does not want the transfer [of murder suspect Chan Tong-kai], so I don't understand why [Carrie Lam] is still so adamant," he told reporters at LegCo.


https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/06/14/deeply-divided-society-22-former-hong-kong-officials-politicians-urge-hong-kong-govt-drop-extradition-bill/

[SkinnyPupp]

Yeah that Taiwan murder suspect is the one example she's been using to justify this garbage, and they don't even want to extradite him FailFish

As mentioned a few pages ago, there appears to be more and more people in Beijing dropping support of this attempt, and are ready to cut the whole thing off, along with Carrie Lam. Good riddance, but they'll just replace her with another puppet. HK people still can't elect their own leaders.

[twitchyzero]

If you're so proud, then why aren't you back there supporting your supposedly wonderful country. It's a bit rich when someone who is proud of their despotic country but decides they rather bail and live in a free and democratic country.

never understood this reasoning

let's say you move to east asia as a canadian expat, heaven forbid if you ever had anything decent to say about our government where keyboard warriors would just ask you to move back since you love it so much

most in here aren't blinding supporting the ccp, they just choose to also examine the betterment despite all the atrocities of an autocratic regime

colonialism/conquest has many ugly sides, but places like Hong Kong and Taiwan wouldn't be where they are today if it wasn't for the British or Japanese

[Tim Budong]

this weekend is calm before another march on monday

[SkinnyPupp]

this weekend is calm before another march on monday
Isn't it Sunday? I actually had plans for dinner in Central that night but switched to TST because I thought there'd be over a million people marching in the streets LUL

[SkinnyPupp]

Hong Kong government will announce pause on unpopular extradition bill by afternoon (https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3014629/hong-kong-government-will-announce-pause-unpopular)

Hong Kong leader Carrie Lam to pause controversial extradition bill – reports (https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/06/15/just-hong-kong-leader-carrie-lam-pause-controversial-extradition-bill-reports/)

[bcedhk]

i think the protest/march should still happen to show solidarity and the fact that the government is technically still just putting it on hold and not removing this bill.

[SkinnyPupp]

Of course. If they think this will have any effect..... They really don't know how to deal with people that grew up with free thought.

[twdm]

never understood this reasoning

let's say you move to east asia as a canadian expat, heaven forbid if you ever had anything decent to say about our government where keyboard warriors would just ask you to move back since you love it so much

most in here aren't blinding supporting the ccp, they just choose to also examine the betterment despite all the atrocities of an autocratic regime

colonialism/conquest has many ugly sides, but places like Hong Kong and Taiwan wouldn't be where they are today if it wasn't for the British or Japanese

It's called being a hypocrite. He tell others how living under CCP rule is so wonderful, yet his whole family ran away from the shithole that is China. Talking the talk but can't walk the walk.

Lastly, how has Hong Kong improved under Beijing rule? It hasn't at all. Vested interests still control all the wealth in Hong Kong. 150 mainland beggars with zero education and money immigrate every day and take all the public resources and public housing. Beijing uses Hong Kong fiscal reserves like their slush fund to build white elephant projects that have zero benefit for Hong Kongers. Millions of mainlanders come and piss and shit on our streets so the vested interests keep getting richer.

Hong Kong has thousands of more pressing issues that need to be resolved, but nothing is ever done because the government is not accountable to its people. They rather push through this useless extradition treaty probably because some businessman posted a picture of Winnie the Pooh and now Winnie wants payback.

I could go on and on, but you wouldn't understand because you've never experienced having your rights and freedoms taken away from you. Brave men died so pussies like you could be keyboard generals in safe democratic countries.

[SkinnyPupp]

BREAKING: ‘Deep sorrow and regret’ – Hong Kong suspends controversial extradition bill after months of protest and criticism (https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/06/15/breaking-hong-kong-suspends-controversial-extradition-bill-months-protest-criticism/)

Beijing suspends the extradition bill indefinitely. Thanks in part to Taiwan saying that they wouldn't do an extradition anyway. A murder case in Taiwan was being used as the single reason to push this bill through so urgently. We all know what they tried to do, and the fight will continue.

Expect another million+ people to march the streets on Sunday. If Beijing thinks this suspension will stop HK from showing their opinions, they are naive.

Totally not worth fighting for, right? They should have just bit the pillow and took it like any good loyal citizen of the Communist Party :pokerface:

[DragonChi]

Congrats! I'm glad and relieve to see that HK was able to stand up for their rights. There is hope!

[StylinRed]

did anyone watch her press conference? what international group did she mention stating hong kong is lacking because they don't have an extradition bill? she was speaking in English at the time, and she ended off with "so the next time they come and ask, I will tell them I tried"

I couldn't rewind since I watched it off of a stream box

find it difficult to believe that an international body would criticize HK for not having an extradition policy with china and told Carrie Lam to get on it

[whitev70r]

Key word being ... extradition bill will be suspended 'indefinitely'.

[Tim Budong]

its a small victory for now
its not over until its cancelled

[bcedhk]

It's ironic how she is using international criticism as the main reason to push for this bill, yet when the international body criticizes Hong Kong and China's tactics with the protest and other human rights, they tell them to mind your own business.

The guy that killed his GF is a big POS, but it sucks for his family and the victims family have to face the burden of being the catalyst that created his shit storm.

[twitchyzero]

that happened what, 40-50 years ago?

are the people in japan who are into Western stuff hypocrites too?

when did i say HK has prospered/improved quality of life since 97?

get the fuck out if you're going to assume no one here has lived through an oppressed system just because they're canadian now

It's called being a hypocrite. He tell others how living under CCP rule is so wonderful, yet his whole family ran away from the shithole that is China. Talking the talk but can't walk the walk.

Lastly, how has Hong Kong improved under Beijing rule? It hasn't at all. Vested interests still control all the wealth in Hong Kong. 150 mainland beggars with zero education and money immigrate every day and take all the public resources and public housing. Beijing uses Hong Kong fiscal reserves like their slush fund to build white elephant projects that have zero benefit for Hong Kongers. Millions of mainlanders come and piss and shit on our streets so the vested interests keep getting richer.

Hong Kong has thousands of more pressing issues that need to be resolved, but nothing is ever done because the government is not accountable to its people. They rather push through this useless extradition treaty probably because some businessman posted a picture of Winnie the Pooh and now Winnie wants payback.

I could go on and on, but you wouldn't understand because you've never experienced having your rights and freedoms taken away from you. Brave men died so pussies like you could be keyboard generals in safe democratic countries.

[whitev70r]

Wow ... see how keyboard warriors got this thread so hyped and intense in a few pages. Just think how much more it would be if you lived in HK and this actually concerns you!

[twdm]

Wow ... see how keyboard warriors got this thread so hyped and intense in a few pages. Just think how much more it would be if you lived in HK and this actually concerns you!

Yea just imagine if they ACTUALLY lived in Hong Kong and ACTUALLY cared about Hong Kong. Wouldn't that be amazing.

get the fuck out if you're going to assume no one here has lived through an oppressed system just because they're canadian now

No one said that you've never lived under a oppressive regime. The fact is you've clearly decided that your liberty is more important and now you're bitching about others who want the same? Logic much? You've basically proven my point on your own.

[SkinnyPupp]

EDIT: He did not jump, he fell when firefighters tried to pull him off the roof. Police are treating it as suicide, so the newspapers covered it that way. More information shows that he was an overzealous protester who lost his life taking it too far. My second point remains the same.

https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/06/15/man-protesting-hong-kongs-extradition-law-unconscious-jumping-mall-admiralty/

To the Canadians who support China in this, I hope you feel great shame. This and all other deaths that occur should haunt you

[DragonChi]

Suicide is the cowards way out. He could of spent his life doing something useful in the resistance against Beijing. Instead, he ended his life without so much as a quibble.

[SkinnyPupp]

Yup he sat there at his keyboard all day writing posts on the internet, then suddenly decided to kill himself.

Edit: We've already established here before that suicide is not necessarily cowardice. And this apparently wasn't suicide anyway, despite initial police reports.

Please don't make ignorant comments when someone dies.. ffs revscene FailFish

[DragonChi]

Just delete my account. I'm done here.

[bomberR17]

Time to start arming Hong Kong citizens and demand independence. Just take it now while the international community is still strong. Can't say the same in the future once China have finished expanding and buying into other territories. While other countries are promoting isolationism.

[6793026]

Carrie Lam is a puppet, there's nothing she can do. I don't understand how people think she is the one who is forcing these rules down HK. China elected her to mandate a list of changes / rules and at the end, she pulled back. A short term pause for now.

No different than teachers and class sizes. You think these teacher want to have 36 students (or wahtever #), and or have more than 3 special needs students with zero helpers in class? A lot of things are forced down.. and we are only here to obey.

As to people yelling at the cops asking them to stop... do you really THINK that would work? They are following orders. Do you think they have the ability to just walk away? no difference than you getting pulled over by RCMP for speeding, you really think what you say will make a difference.

As for the protesters / teens are getting hurt...well you're asking for it. Remember the Canucks fans during the riot...the ones who were arrested and convicted were the ones who didn't leave and insisted on being there. Can't blame people if they got hurt during the process.

[SkinnyPupp]

Carrie Lam is a puppet, there's nothing she can do. I don't understand how people think she is the one who is forcing these rules down HK. China elected her to mandate a list of changes / rules and at the end, she pulled back. A short term pause for now.

No different than teachers and class sizes. You think these teacher want to have 36 students (or wahtever #), and or have more than 3 special needs students with zero helpers in class? A lot of things are forced down.. and we are only here to obey.

As to people yelling at the cops asking them to stop... do you really THINK that would work? They are following orders. Do you think they have the ability to just walk away? no difference than you getting pulled over by RCMP for speeding, you really think what you say will make a difference.

As for the protesters / teens are getting hurt...well you're asking for it. Remember the Canucks fans during the riot...the ones who were arrested and convicted were the ones who didn't leave and insisted on being there. Can't blame people if they got hurt during the process.
There's so much wrong with that, I don't know if anyone will bother responding LUL

[asian_XL]

http://i65.tinypic.com/2ik4pxu.jpg
http://i64.tinypic.com/119zbwx.jpg
http://i63.tinypic.com/deoj0j.jpg
http://i66.tinypic.com/kcgzud.jpg

[BIC_BAWS]

https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/c0zpvm/animation_showing_how_the_hong_kong_protests/


Animation showing the timeline of the HK protests

[Manic!]

Carrie Lam is a puppet, there's nothing she can do. I don't understand how people think she is the one who is forcing these rules down HK. China elected her to mandate a list of changes / rules and at the end, she pulled back. A short term pause for now.

No different than teachers and class sizes. You think these teacher want to have 36 students (or wahtever #), and or have more than 3 special needs students with zero helpers in class? A lot of things are forced down.. and we are only here to obey.

As to people yelling at the cops asking them to stop... do you really THINK that would work? They are following orders. Do you think they have the ability to just walk away? no difference than you getting pulled over by RCMP for speeding, you really think what you say will make a difference.



You know you can just say no right? Plenty of people have told there bosses to fuck off.

[SkinnyPupp]

I think there will be way more people than last week. Maybe even double! 2 million in the streets, imagine that

[Badhobz]

I'm glad they were able to stop this legislation. This whole thing kinda worked out in the best way possible so far. Hopefully CCP won't do anything crazy but I have my doubts. Anyways, you guys in HK stay safe and all these Canadian ex pats should really think about coming home.

[Teriyaki]

So end goal, Carrie Lam steps down. Then what? The Chief Executive has to be vetted by the CCP, so its basically a puppet position. Energies aren't being focused on the puppet masters

[SkinnyPupp]

Father's Day dinner with 70 year old in-law who has been living in China for 20 years was... interesting :pokerface:

[SkinnyPupp]

https://i.redd.it/her4dnjzip431.jpg

[SkinnyPupp]

fatherlycreepybeetle

[6793026]

Carrie did rush this a bit by saying, nope this is the final reading, we have to move forward. The lack of openness and 2nd 3rd, 4th reading / discussion lead to this today. You really think she wants to be the most hated person in HK right now? China has had enough and wanted to see this through but HK protestes are fighting.

As to just quitting your job / saying fuck off to your boss, well.... I don't know about you, maybe you're doing that to your bosses now in Canada?

my cousin and his wife are both in HK police; my uncle used to be a high ranking officer in hk, orders has to be followed. This is not like James Bond, 24 or HK TVB drama The defected, where can easily disobey. From the last Sept 25-Dec 14 2014 event and now, they said they lost count on the number of nights they weren't able to go home, drenched in the rain in wet underwear just to stand on guard.

I have 100+ friends who are participating peacefully in this, and props to them, I hvae some expat who came back and was also at the Chinese consulate. 99.9% of them were safe and brought kids to the gatherings.

(董建華) 1st Chief Exec. stepped down due to health reason was just BS and it ain't going to happen again. i don't think China can force a CE to step down nor quit; how will people react if CE will just step down due to social pressures.

[asian_XL]

7million people city...2million people came out to protest, that's a lot of fucking people.

[SkinnyPupp]

More photos

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-48655634?fbclid=IwAR3VS1f6bHR9UDLsZ6Ybzz7RR8AjrEG2 aRrxBaFHeLIWL35Y3HLGw__j0-Y

It's practically impossible to get across the scale of this. Imagine if literally every single person in Vancouver went to one place. And then triple that. Does that even help? It's mind blowing

[Manic!]

Carrie did rush this a bit by saying, nope this is the final reading, we have to move forward. The lack of openness and 2nd 3rd, 4th reading / discussion lead to this today. You really think she wants to be the most hated person in HK right now? China has had enough and wanted to see this through but HK protestes are fighting.

As to just quitting your job / saying fuck off to your boss, well.... I don't know about you, maybe you're doing that to your bosses now in Canada?

my cousin and his wife are both in HK police; my uncle used to be a high ranking officer in hk, orders has to be followed. This is not like James Bond, 24 or HK TVB drama The defected, where can easily disobey. From the last Sept 25-Dec 14 2014 event and now, they said they lost count on the number of nights they weren't able to go home, drenched in the rain in wet underwear just to stand on guard.



You can't force someone to beat the shit out of another person. Sooner or later the police have to go home and live in the same neighborhoods and buildings as the protesters.

[SkinnyPupp]

A good summary of yesterday, if anyone here still cares

https://twitter.com/SCMPNews/status/1140326316312604672

[asian_XL]

Even today Carrie Lam resigns, the next CE will be elected by the same group of people. Mr Tung, Mr Tsang, Mr Leung, now Mrs Lam. The next one will also need to follow the communist orders. The protest rings the bell that one country two systems is not working, and no way Taiwanese will follow that.

[SkinnyPupp]

Time lapse

relievedcornychrysomelid

[SkinnyPupp]

Here's how the Hong Kong protest is being covered in Bizarro-Land. According to them, 2 million parents in Hong Kong took to the streets to protest against USA for meddling in China's affairs.

This is the kind of coverage that people are subjected to in China, something that becomes very clear if you try to discuss politics with someone from there. The anti-US propaganda they are facing is VERY strong, possibly the strongest ever, and VERY effective.

HK parents march against US meddling (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/201906/17/WS5d06d79ca3103dbf143287c7.html)

[Manic!]

Here's how the Hong Kong protest is being covered in Bizarro-Land. According to them, 2 million parents in Hong Kong took to the streets to protest against USA for meddling in China's affairs.

This is the kind of coverage that people are subjected to in China, something that becomes very clear if you try to discuss politics with someone from there. The anti-US propaganda they are facing is VERY strong, possibly the strongest ever, and VERY effective.

HK parents march against US meddling (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/201906/17/WS5d06d79ca3103dbf143287c7.html)

Shocking they have no pictures of the march.

[Tim Budong]

Joshua Wong gets released from jail today.. shows up at the student protest

[SkinnyPupp]

He looks better than he did before prison lol

[StylinRed]

wow that's a lot of people

reminds me of the million man march crowds walking onto DC

https://i1.wp.com/negronews.fr/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/1995_million_man_march.jpg

edit: hmm eh, dere we go

[whitev70r]

wow that's a lot of people

reminds me of the million man march crowds walking onto DC



Meh ... more people at the Raptors parade in the 6ix.

[Bouncing Bettys]

In light of these protests, I found this headline interesting:
China is harvesting organs from detainees, tribunal concludes
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/17/china-is-harvesting-organs-from-detainees-uk-tribunal-concludes?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_reddit_is_fun

[Badhobz]

FailFishFailFishFailFishFailFishFailFishFailFish fucking CCP. For every good thing they've done there's always like 10x stupid ass shit thing they are trying to cover up.

[SkinnyPupp]

Do you have a source for this? I am interested in this particular topic.
If you're still interested in this topic, here's some more. Apparently police have access to hospital records:

https://twitter.com/HongKongFP/status/1140568775571283968

[SkinnyPupp]

In light of these protests, I found this headline interesting:
China is harvesting organs from detainees, tribunal concludes
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/17/china-is-harvesting-organs-from-detainees-uk-tribunal-concludes?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_reddit_is_fun
This topic came up during fathers day dinner too. According to my wife's dad, Falun Gong are fanatical crazy cultists, and turn their followers into violent maniacs. He shared an anecdote of a friend of a co-worker's wife who joined Falun Gong, and then started beating their child for no reason. He claims that they try to teach their followers about "qigong" but do it incorrectly, and that drives people insane. I mean... Let's not get into that for now LUL

I personally have NO IDEA, because I know there are crazy cults out there that do this, as well as there are some that manipulate people for their money, etc. There are also some that are very peaceful and helpful.

I don't know who to believe. If someone says they are crazy cultists, it's possible, but I question where they got that idea from. You can imagine how much shitty propaganda is out there about them. My personal assumption is that they are seen as a threat to the Party simply due to their popularity, and that's why they're so aggressive towards them. The CCP cares about one thing more than anything else in this world: Self preservation. And if there is a group that goes against them, and apparently Falun Gong had 70-80 million followers before being persecuted, they're going to shut them down at all costs. Remember, they can come up with any law they want if they think you might go against them. They see religion as inherently subversive, so all religions are going to be looked at. And once the numbers get up there, they'll go after them.

To hear that they are still doing these atrocious things shouldn't be surprising at all. The Party does a lot of amazing things for the country and for the world. They get some things right. For instance if I was a completely neutral scientist with no compassion or care about anything other than science, there would be no better place in the world to "get shit done" and advance science than China.

I could go on, but the fact is that the CCP is kind of a crazy cult themselves. They have developed their own set of morals and values, and some of it may be good, but a lot of it doesn't line up very well with the rest of the free thinking world. The main issue for me being that people are not to be treated equally. And they have more power than any other group in the world.

[twitchyzero]

you've clearly decided that your liberty is more important and now you're bitching about others who want the same? Logic much? You've basically proven my point on your own.

where in my posts here have i criticized against HK protesting?

i'm merely saying it's idiotic to call others hypocrites if they can't have an open, pragmatic mind about something abroad that they can relate to

your sentiment is as ridiculous as asking people to move away from HK at the drop of a hat even if they were born there with all family/social ties or to ask Vancouver folks to move away if housing/living is so expensive instead of complaining or work harder

Yea just imagine if they ACTUALLY lived in Hong Kong and ACTUALLY cared about Hong Kong. Wouldn't that be amazing.

bitch please, this is a Vancouver-based forum...you want a .hk subforum ask for one or hit the ignore/back button if you dont want to read our Canadian input

[SkinnyPupp]

Carrie Lam just had a press conference. TLDR:

- The bill will not be officially withdrawn or retracted. But she basically said they'll let it sit paused until next July when it expires

- She and the Police Chief no longer consider Wednesday's protest a "RIOT". They say that some people were violent, but it wasn't a riot, and won't be charging people for being there. Only people who were actually doing violent things will be charged. This includes the police, and she reiterated several times where people can report police brutality.

- She is not stepping down. She wants "another chance" to make things right.

So I was wrong that they'd dump her with the bill, but it looks like they at least stopped this specific bill from passing.

They're definitely going to think twice about trying that again.

[Badhobz]

where in my posts here have i criticized against HK protesting?

i'm merely saying it's idiotic to call others hypocrites if they can't have an open, pragmatic mind about something abroad that they can relate to

your sentiment is as ridiculous as asking people to move away from HK at the drop of a hat even if they were born there with all family/social ties or to ask Vancouver folks to move away if housing/living is so expensive instead of complaining or work harder



bitch please, this is a Vancouver-based forum...you want a .hk subforum ask for one or hit the ignore/back button if you dont want to read our Canadian input

don't even respond to him bro. This guy's a few protesters short of an occupy movement.

First, he tells me to go back to China, and then he calls me and my family pussy and says we have a history of taking shit up our asses FailFish. Classic internet troll.

[Mr.Money]

does china even have enough police force if shit went wild with 2 million people going wild?

[68style]

^
No country in the world actually has enough police to control significant numbers of their population revolting... zerg swarm...

That's why the military always gets called in when they deem the situation to be uncontrollable at the police level and it's classified as a riot. Even then... if enough people decide to continue........ and there are enough of them to overwhelm both the police and the military, the government falls and a riot becomes a coup.

[Mr.HappySilp]

don't even respond to him bro. This guy's a few protesters short of an occupy movement.

First, he tells me to go back to China, and then he calls me and my family pussy and says we have a history of taking shit up our asses FailFish. Classic internet troll.

But is kinda of true though. If you like China so much and feels so great about it you really should go back and start a new life there and not stay in Canada. I mean China have a better economy, more advance tech, better railway system a a gov that loves its people. It loves so much and wants to protect its people so much it must filter out all news sauce that IT feels it will harm the feelings of its citizen so their glass heart won't shatter if the actual truth comes out. Oh and let's not forget if your social points is too low you can even get a railway ticket so everyone will be nice and treat each other as brothers and sisters, never break the law or even say anything mean or hurtful about gov. While we are at it let's paint all foregin countries and its citizen the enomy of China so there is a common pretend enemy to hate. Also the laws only apply to the poor and those without connections. The rich and the powerful can get away with whatever they do.

Such a great country to live in, we really should all start going back and start a new live there.

^
No country in the world actually has enough police to control significant numbers of their population revolting... zerg swarm...

That's why the military always gets called in when they deem the situation to be uncontrollable at the police level and it's classified as a riot. Even then... if enough people decide to continue........ and there are enough of them to overwhelm both the police and the military, the government falls and a riot becomes a coup.

Nah the gov can just roll in tanks.... wait I think China did that already but then according to the gov it was due to the fact only a small number of people were protesting and the gov have no choice but to run them over with tanks so the country as a whole can move forward. No mention of apolgy.

[twdm]

i'm merely saying it's idiotic to call others hypocrites if they can't have an open, pragmatic mind about something abroad that they can relate to

your sentiment is as ridiculous as asking people to move away from HK at the drop of a hat even if they were born there with all family/social ties or to ask Vancouver folks to move away if housing/living is so expensive instead of complaining or work harder

bitch please, this is a Vancouver-based forum...you want a .hk subforum ask for one or hit the ignore/back button if you dont want to read our Canadian input

Bitch please, go bring your Chinese flags and support Meng Wangzhou.

There's a reason why there are stereotypes against mainland chinese. They take their oaths as Canadian citizens, but when the CCP calls, they all line up to collect their 50 cents instead of protecting Canadian values of open and democratic governance. They feel like abuse of power is something to be proud of.

From your posts, I really question if you're fit to live in Canada. I would challenge you to openly post your opinions on facebook to your Canadian friends without the safety of anonymity. Let others see what you truly are. I know I wouldn't be afraid.


i'm merely saying it's idiotic to call others hypocrites if they can't have an open, pragmatic mind about something abroad that they can relate to

your sentiment is as ridiculous as asking people to move away from HK at the drop of a hat even if they were born there with all family/social ties or to ask Vancouver folks to move away if housing/living is so expensive instead of complaining or work harder

Your post doesn't make sense at all. How is it even the same? How does he relate to having his freedoms guaranteed by law taken away from him? How does he relate to having a prosperous home being destroyed everyday by a government hell-bent on marginalizing it? Hong Kong is a symbol of western prosperity in spite of the CCP. Why do you think it wants it to fail? Why would it keep trying to pass laws that it knows the people would not accept?

Telling someone to move to his ideal home with"wonderful governance", "amazing freedoms", "amazing economy" etc etc is the same as telling someone to leave their ideal home because of economic troubles? Really, stop while you're ahead. Logic isn't your strong suit.

[twdm]

don't even respond to him bro. This guy's a few protesters short of an occupy movement.

First, he tells me to go back to China, and then he calls me and my family pussy and says we have a history of taking shit up our asses FailFish. Classic internet troll.

You and your family are pussies. Shall I count out the times you took it up the ass?

1. Grandparents got all their shit stolen when the communists invaded; took it up the ass
2. Sent half their family to the gulags and probably raped and murdered after; took it up the ass
3. Grandparents re-educated during cultural revolution and was "never the same"; took it up the ass

After all that, you can still find it in your heart to support this regime in the safety of a democratic country. Your asshole must be pretty loose.

Unless the country experiences some fundamental reforms in environmental protection, consumer protection, health and education, certain basic freedoms, etc that we have here in the west, it just doesnt appeal to me."

This is exactly what Hong Kongers are trying to defend. We have shown our opposition time and time again and instead of being a pussy like you, we back up our words.

Things we have accomplished:
1. Repeal of 2003 National security law
2. Repeal of Moral and National education classes (which was basically propaganda trying to wash out the Chinese government's crimes against humanity)
3. Paralyzed the government in 2014
4. Delay of the current extradition bill

Things you have accomplished:
1. Spreading your buttcheeks

[Traum]

China never immediately sacks a failed official for failing to handle a major task or crisis. To them, doing so is the same as admitting fault and showing weakness, and they never admit to being wrong or show weakness. If any sacking were to take place, that will happen a few months down the line. In China, the official will officially get sacked. In Hong Kong, the CEO will probably resign himself (Tung Chee Hwa style) -- ie. citing some lamea$$ excuse.

I'd have to disagree with your statement / comment that people engaging in violent acts, including the police, will get charged. I would never for a minute believe her that the government would proactively charge their officiers. They will do whatever they can do drag out the investigation process for as long as possible, hoping that the suing individuals will find it too expensive / exhausting to continue pursuing with pressing charges. This is exactly what happened with that "arm extension" Inspector who was caught on video beating on an innocent public who was already walking away. That time the inspector got charged, but only because public pressure was far too great, and the evidence totally undeniable and the police officer easily identifiable.

The HKPD chief has already been very defiant on arresting and laying charges on his officers. It'll be interesting to see how HK deals with the glut of video evidence showing widespread police brutality in the recent protests.
Carrie Lam just had a press conference. TLDR:

- The bill will not be officially withdrawn or retracted. But she basically said they'll let it sit paused until next July when it expires

- She and the Police Chief no longer consider Wednesday's protest a "RIOT". They say that some people were violent, but it wasn't a riot, and won't be charging people for being there. Only people who were actually doing violent things will be charged. This includes the police, and she reiterated several times where people can report police brutality.

- She is not stepping down. She wants "another chance" to make things right.

So I was wrong that they'd dump her with the bill, but it looks like they at least stopped this specific bill from passing.

They're definitely going to think twice about trying that again.

[SkinnyPupp]

China never immediately sacks a failed official for failing to handle a major task or crisis. To them, doing so is the same as admitting fault and showing weakness, and they never admit to being wrong or show weakness. If any sacking were to take place, that will happen a few months down the line. In China, the official will officially get sacked. In Hong Kong, the CEO will probably resign himself (Tung Chee Hwa style) -- ie. citing some lamea$$ excuse.

I'd have to disagree with your statement / comment that people engaging in violent acts, including the police, will get charged. I would never for a minute believe her that the government would proactively charge their officiers. They will do whatever they can do drag out the investigation process for as long as possible, hoping that the suing individuals will find it too expensive / exhausting to continue pursuing with pressing charges. This is exactly what happened with that "arm extension" Inspector who was caught on video beating on an innocent public who was already walking away. That time the inspector got charged, but only because public pressure was far too great, and the evidence totally undeniable and the police officer easily identifiable.

The HKPD chief has already been very defiant on arresting and laying charges on his officers. It'll be interesting to see how HK deals with the glut of video evidence showing widespread police brutality in the recent protests.
I think they're already sort of setting it up, by distancing her from the rest of the Party in respect to this bill. They are saying that she tried to push this bill in too fast, and went about it the wrong way. Of course we know that this isn't true at all, she only does what she's told, but the fact that they are explicitly pinning this on HER shows that they want her to take the brunt of the blame. People are still calling for her to step down, which is exactly what they want - they think it protects their image (lol). They're all hoping to be able to ride out the rest of her term, but if people are loud enough about it, I think she'll have to "volunteer" to step down.

Remember, the Party has absolutely no idea how to govern in a place where people are used to having free thought for generations. They don't realize how utterly ridiculous their propaganda looks. We look at their fake news reports and literally laugh out loud. Then we talk to our mainland relatives and get their perspectives, and practically cry because they are so brainwashed. When they try the propaganda here, it sticks out so much, because you can tell they don't know how to communicate with free thinking people.

And yeah unfortunately post 1997, the police force is not as accountable as it once was. They went from being a typical rotten corrupted police force through the 60's and 70's, to completely cleaned up and among the best forces in the world in the 80's and 90's. What a turnaround! I am so proud of my wife's uncle to be a top police official during that time. And now they are the government's tool of destruction :(

[twitchyzero]

Bitch please, go bring your Chinese flags and support Meng Wangzhou.


From your posts, I really question if you're fit to live in Canada.

I would challenge you to openly post your opinions on facebook to your Canadian friends without the safety of anonymity. Let others see what you truly are. I know I wouldn't be afraid.


i'm one of the first here to encourage others to drop it like it's hot when Google Nexus used Huawei for hardware, but okay i'll start promoting organ harvesting just because it's more convenient for your argument

am I fit to live in Canada? I don't know i like to criticize the current govt from Moonbeam to teacher-on-call Trudeau, but sounds ironic that you have an opinion from HK about a Canadian living in Canada if you're frowning upon my take of the CCP from Canada...i thought HK isn't part of China, so why do you care so much? LUL

yeah bruh social media is srs biz...i should spam my feed/gallery with my pride for the CCP! see you there Oct 1 and let the flags fly high!

[twitchyzero]

You and your family are pussies. Shall I count out the times you took it up the ass?

1. Grandparents got all their shit stolen when the communists invaded; took it up the ass
2. Sent half their family to the gulags and probably raped and murdered after; took it up the ass
3. Grandparents re-educated during cultural revolution and was "never the same"; took it up the ass

After all that, you can still find it in your heart to support this regime in the safety of a democratic country. Your asshole must be pretty loose.




Indigenous population that have kids with Caucasians, yet celebrates indigenous art/culture;
privileged pussies

African-Americans working in the US government that posts about MLK day;
wow please think about your ancestors from 300 years ago, don't be a pussy

Vancouver native playing for the Boston Bruins that has a house in Vancouver;
bring lube cause you're a pussy

i like where this is going!

[twdm]

Indigenous population that have kids with Caucasians, yet celebrates indigenous art/culture;
privileged pussies

African-Americans working in the US government that posts about MLK day;
wow please think about your ancestors from 300 years ago, don't be a pussy

Vancouver native playing for the Boston Bruins that has a house in Vancouver;
bring lube cause you're a pussy

i like where this is going!

I think there's no point showing you the flaws in your arguments, but I'll try one last time.

Indigenous populations are generally respected and the government has tried to make amends. They acknowledged and apologized for their past actions.

African americans are generally respected and the government has apologized for their past and made changes to eliminate discrimination.

I have no clue what point you are making with the last comment.

Compared to the chinese government who killed millions of Chinese during the cultural revolution, killed chinese in Tiananmen, tibet, falun gong, xinjiang etc etc. Denies anything ever happened, and the killings are still ongoing. How does it even compare?:rukidding:

The same government tells people to stop dwelling in the past when it comes to killing its own citizens, but tells japan to apologize every year for something that happened even further in the past.

[trd2343]

For those who support the protest, may I ask, what have you done so far to show support? Have you participated in the protest? If you didn't, why didn't you?

I agree that people of Hong Kong have a right to fight for their freedom, but I also think their effort is futile. I don't think anyone here is supporting CCP and praising them as the greatest thing.

But if someone's grandparent are pussies for taking it in the ass when CCP raped them, then these 2 million protesters are pussies as well. They should be protesting right at Beijing's gate, not on the safe street of Hong Kong. I can assure you that Xi's isn't shitting his pants or losing sleep over this protest. China will get what they want. Unless people of Hong Kong are prepared to put their lives on the line, literraly, like soliders in war. Why do people have to pay for such a high price for freedom? It's like asking why are Africans subject to slavery. It's an unfair world.

[whitev70r]

This 'extradition' happens anyways ... with or without a law.

Has everyone forgotten about the Booksellers in Causeway Bay already?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappearances

[CivicBlues]

For those who support the protest, may I ask, what have you done so far to show support? Have you participated in the protest? If you didn't, why didn't you?



Well, if my HK Facebook friends are anything to go by they've all changed their profile picture to black. But they've also continued posting fancy food pictures, no doubt paid for by their high powered careers dependent on continued access to the Mainland.

[bcedhk]

Hopefully the protest this friday/saturday will remain peaceful.

But at the same time, based on the half-ass responses and apologies given by the CE, CP, and SS (he sounds and look senile), I wouldn't be surprised if some will resort to anger/violence...

[SkinnyPupp]

I wish they wouldn't push so hard on Lam stepping down. They must realize she is utterly irrelevant.

Also they should realize that not literally retracting the bill is just a way to save face. They have effectively retracted the bill.

They won this round, big time. They're going against the biggest 'face savers' in the entire world (I'm sure most people know what that means) and they still got what they wanted. It's actually kind of amazing!

This isn't to say they won't have to do it again for some other reason. They've done it before, and will have to do it over and over until 2047. But they won this round. The other side just doesn't want to admit it, and they never will.

[SkinnyPupp]

Another bill was "delayed" today. In case you were wondering what this was, the Beijing government wants to make it illegal to make any other noises or show any disrespect when the China national anthem is being played.

This is in reaction to when the anthem is played before soccer games, where people use their democratic rights to show displeasure towards China by booing the anthem.

Yes, they want to be able to throw Hong Kong people in jail for disagreeing with them. They literally were trying to put this into law in Hong Kong.

https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3015218/legco-president-andrew-leung-calls-hong-kong-government-put

[Tim Budong]

the anthem thing is hilarious to me

[whitev70r]

Can someone explain why China HAS to play nice for 50 years? Please don't say because they made some sort of promise in 1997.

What do you think will happen to those who bought property at UBC Endowment lands after 99 years?

[SkinnyPupp]

Can someone explain why China HAS to play nice for 50 years? Please don't say because they made some sort of promise in 1997.

What do you think will happen to those who bought property at UBC Endowment lands after 99 years?
It's literally in the constitution

[twitchyzero]

and?

continued killings? you think US are saints now and the violence has stopped? do you think they call a day of mourning and cry on national TV like Justin Trudeau when the drone strikes hit innocents or more Mexican kids die in detention?

might i add:

Japanese education system still skews WWII facts...afaik their govt never apologized for all the massacre/raping

Nationalists in Taiwan enforced one of the longest martial laws in history, was responsible for the 228 massacre and hasn't apologized

does that mean these authorities have contributed only grief and had zero factor in developing their countries into the Asian Tigers? and those who live in Canada can't make comments about so?

things are not perfectly black and white so i cant offer you any empathy when you're this dense: people are not pussies because they were raped/had possessions taken when threatened with a bayonet after watching their family members get killed...many of the elites/intellects were killed first

let's be clear here:

i'm for the people of HK to fight what little freedom they have left against a regime hungry for more influence

but this is not an opportunity to call Mainlanders subhumans for hoarding baby formulas/pissing on the street and it's certainly bullshit to invalidate outsiders' perspective as being hypocritical for events that happened before they were even fucking born and because they don't live in HK (on a fucking Vancouver forum of all places)

if it's more the latter then i suppose i'll continue being skeptical at HK's future from my 'safe, prievileged, first-world, <insert more hurt adjective>' country


Indigenous populations are generally respected and the government has tried to make amends. They acknowledged and apologized for their past actions.

African americans are generally respected and the government has apologized for their past and made changes to eliminate discrimination.

I have no clue what point you are making with the last comment.

Compared to the chinese government who killed millions of Chinese during the cultural revolution, killed chinese in Tiananmen, tibet, falun gong, xinjiang etc etc. Denies anything ever happened, and the killings are still ongoing. How does it even compare?:rukidding:

The same government tells people to stop dwelling in the past when it comes to killing its own citizens, but tells japan to apologize every year for something that happened even further in the past.

[twitchyzero]

Well, if my HK Facebook friends are anything to go by they've all changed their profile picture to black. But they've also continued posting fancy food pictures, no doubt paid for by their high powered careers dependent on continued access to the Mainland.

timing couldn't be more perfect; just had one with the HK filter on profile pic publicly shaming her own vancouver-born husband for being privileged

the cringe was strong

[SkinnyPupp]

and?

continued killings? you think US are saints now and the violence has stopped? do you think they call a day of mourning and cry on national TV like Justin Trudeau when the drone strikes hit innocents or more Mexican kids die in detention?

might i add:

Japanese education system still skews WWII facts...afaik their govt never apologized for all the massacre/raping

Nationalists in Taiwan enforced one of the longest martial laws in history, was responsible for the 228 massacre and hasn't apologized

does that mean these authorities have contributed only grief and had zero factor in developing their countries into the Asian Tigers? and those who live in Canada can't make comments about so?

things are not perfectly black and white so i cant offer you any empathy when you're this dense: people are not pussies because they were raped/had possessions taken when threatened with a bayonet after watching their family members get killed...many of the elites/intellects were killed first

let's be clear here:

i'm for the people of HK to fight what little freedom they have left against a regime hungry for more influence

but this is not an opportunity to call Mainlanders subhumans for hoarding baby formulas/pissing on the street and it's certainly bullshit to invalidate outsiders' perspective as being hypocritical for events that happened before they were even fucking born and because they don't live in HK (on a fucking Vancouver forum of all places)

if it's more the latter then i suppose i'll continue being skeptical at HK's future from my 'safe, prievileged, first-world, <insert more hurt adjective>' country
Is anyone here calling mainlanders "subhuman"? If so they should be gone

I can only speak for myself, but I am disappointed when I see anyone just go against human rights like nothing matters since it doesn't affect them personally. I don't care if you were born and raised in Canada, or your family fled a tyrannical regime. If you have that opinion, I am going to disagree with you. And unfortunately I see that opinion coming from, well like I said, a place of unchecked privilege from people who SHOULD know better, but choose not to. Some may just be pragmatic about it, and that's fine. But others are actually AGAINST any movement in the direction opposite of tyranny. I just don't get it.

I will say this, political threads are likely to get a bit hostile. Let's keep from calling people "pussies" and "subhuman" ok? I don't want to close threads that get a bit shitty when they have a lot of other good info to offer (something I've put some effort into contributing)

[CivicBlues]

timing couldn't be more perfect; just had one with the HK filter on profile pic publicly shaming her own vancouver-born husband for being privileged

the cringe was strong

LOL what? I've yet to see any of my FB friends posting selfies from the protest march. But I'll give them the benefit of the doubt since all of them have aged out of that group.

But yeah, changing your profile pic to Black, for gay pride or for whatever Western country's flag (that's not the US) hit by a terrorist attack is the laziest form of slacktivism which I despise.

[Traum]

Can someone explain why China HAS to play nice for 50 years? Please don't say because they made some sort of promise in 1997.

What do you think will happen to those who bought property at UBC Endowment lands after 99 years?

It's literally in the constitution
When Deng negotiated the 1-country-2-system with Thatcher, Deng's intent and expectations were that in 50 yrs' time, China would have caught up to Hong Kong (and the international community)'s level of prosperity and civility, and then the 2 societies can readily merge into one without major issues. Of course, little did he know that his lack of political reform in China means an assimilation like that is impossible.

Any leasehold land in Canada, or any place that operates under the rule of law, would never have any issues with the leases expiring. The lease expires, and you either re-negotiate to come to a deal of some sort beforehand, or you just pack up and go when the expiration comes. The problem with China is, it is a place that operates on the rule by law princple. That law and justice is not an end goal in itself, but merely a means to achieve whatever desires the current ruler / ruling adminstration desires. So it doesn't matter what kind of contract or binding agreement they have passed or signed, because China will easily ignore their obligations if it is convenient for them to do so. And this is exactly what happened with their WTO obligations.

[320icar]

This thread is kind of insane. Can someone link me or coles notes this ‘bill’ that was shelved?

[Gallardo]

This thread is kind of insane. Can someone link me or coles notes this ‘bill’ that was shelved?

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the long and the short of the Bill is:

For certain crimes committed in Hong Kong, the person in question will be sent to Mainland China- to be dealt with and sentenced.

[320icar]

Oh. That’s fucked up.

[Traum]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the long and the short of the Bill is:

For certain crimes committed in Hong Kong, the person in question will be sent to Mainland China- to be dealt with and sentenced.
Not true. A proper but simplified version of the bill is:

Hong Kong will extradite anyone to Mainland China for trial when the person has broken Mainland Chinese laws that are deemed serious enough for extradition.

The difference is, the crime does not have to be committed in Hong Kong. As long as he is physically in Hong Kong, the bill allows for him to get arrested in Hong Kong, stand trial to see whether the extradition request is justified (but HK courts cannot question the validity of the evidence presented by China for the Chinese charges), and sent to China if the presented evidence looks strong enough to warrant a trial. It is essentially like Meng Wenzhou's case now -- Meng have obviously not broken any Canadian laws, but she is arrested on charges against the US.

And that's what is so fxxked up about it -- Hong Kong cannot question the validity of the evidence presented by China. It can only determine whether the evidence and the purported crime is strong enough to warrant extradition. The fear is, if China wants somebody taken back to China for trial (or whatever other purposes it wants), they will fabricate the necesary evidence for a crime that will require extradition -- eg. rape, tax evasion, embezzlement, etc. Once the target is back in China -- good luck to him.

[SkinnyPupp]

When Deng negotiated the 1-country-2-system with Thatcher, Deng's intent and expectations were that in 50 yrs' time, China would have caught up to Hong Kong (and the international community)'s level of prosperity and civility, and then the 2 societies can readily merge into one without major issues. Of course, little did he know that his lack of political reform in China means an assimilation like that is impossible.

Any leasehold land in Canada, or any place that operates under the rule of law, would never have any issues with the leases expiring. The lease expires, and you either re-negotiate to come to a deal of some sort beforehand, or you just pack up and go when the expiration comes. The problem with China is, it is a place that operates on the rule by law princple. That law and justice is not an end goal in itself, but merely a means to achieve whatever desires the current ruler / ruling adminstration desires. So it doesn't matter what kind of contract or binding agreement they have passed or signed, because China will easily ignore their obligations if it is convenient for them to do so. And this is exactly what happened with their WTO obligations.
I know. I'm just saying why they "have" to "play nice" for 50 years. By doing what they're doing, they're literally going against their own constitution that they wrote. They are breaking the law at a very fundamental level with this meddling.

[ae101]

im only here to say i participated in this thread, im from hong kong and taiwan living in china

lets hope i dont get arrested lol

[ToneCapone]

Another bill was "delayed" today. In case you were wondering what this was, the Beijing government wants to make it illegal to make any other noises or show any disrespect when the China national anthem is being played.[/url]

Anybody remember reading 1984 by George Orwell in hs? Because China is eerily moving towards everything the book described :moderated:

I learned a lot of new stuff in this thread... its bad on all sides...
With this issue aside, it really makes me think of the direction that is China headed in. Its pretty bad already, and it will get so much worse.

[SkinnyPupp]

China is legitimately terrifying, and as much as Trump is a stupid idiot, I think he is right in that the rest of the world has to pressure them.

[SkinnyPupp]

Week 3

https://twitter.com/cnni/status/1141917319037407232

[bcedhk]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZK1hpDrSQ9M&feature=youtu.be

protest continues based on this. They are blocking the police HQ now. Probably a good day for thieves and robbers.

I think CCP will sacrifice Secretary for Security (John Lee) and/or Secretary for Justice (Teresa Cheng) to calm the storm. I predict JOhn Lee will be the first on the chopping blocks because he has been doing a shit job with responding to protestors and pretty much-adding fuel to the fire every time he speaks.

[JD¹³]

As someone who lived in HK for the last few years of British rule it's sad to see what it has slowly degraded in to. I really enjoyed my time there. I've been back a bunch since no longer being a resident but even my dad called it quits in 09. He and many of his colleagues felt it was time to go. None of my family or the network of expats we knew are surprised by China's actions though. HK will 'die' as the hub it once was with this continued meddling; I wonder if it's already passed the tipping point and another mass exodus will be happening. You'd think China would have gotten the hint that blatantly illegal business practices and strong-arming doesn't work in the 21st century with Huawei forecasting a 30B loss of its profits due to being alienated by the rest of the world.

[SkinnyPupp]

Stunning composite imagery of last week's march PogChamp

This is probably the most 'readable' image I've seen, showing just how big the scale is

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/06/20/world/asia/hong-kong-protest-size.html

[SkinnyPupp]

Amnesty International's report (https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/asa17/0576/2019/en/) on how the police handled protests 6/12. TL;DR they title it "HOW NOT TO POLICE A PROTEST"

Includes a lot of footage I haven't seen before. So if you thought the cops weren't actually that bad.. think again, it was REALLY FUCKING BAD.

[bcedhk]

Amnesty International's report (https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/asa17/0576/2019/en/) on how the police handled protests 6/12. TL;DR they title it "HOW NOT TO POLICE A PROTEST"

Includes a lot of footage I haven't seen before. So if you thought the cops weren't actually that bad.. think again, it was REALLY FUCKING BAD.

https://twitter.com/HK6127/status/1142072650770145282

They need better training on keeping their cool and composure. They act and look just like any MK gang. And look at how their superior is laughing in the background.

[SkinnyPupp]

https://twitter.com/HK6127/status/1142072650770145282

They need better training on keeping their cool and composure. They act and look just like any MK gang. And look at how their superior is laughing in the background.
Yeah if that guy loses his temper that much while out of uniform, out of the action, imagine how insane he goes when he's out there crackin' skulls. Nasty shit

[ae101]

im all for things like flags on goverment buildings and mandarin on MTR station is normal and i personally think its a must since the hand over

but since its 50 years unchange, then they should keep it intill the time period expires

u must know that china is like a birds cage, your freedom is base on how big the cage is period and depending on how u perform they will adjust things to see what fits right

im not a fan of the cpp but im not going to say i hate them, i live here and thats i dont talk/play politics

[Badhobz]

She's hot. I'd let her march on my tianmem

https://i.postimg.cc/Dw5VQh4w/Capture-2019-06-22-08-16-16.png

[320icar]

https://youtu.be/6_RdnVtfZPY

[StylinRed]

pro police rally in HK over 150k ppl

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-48817530

[whitev70r]

What do you all think now? Freedom fighters or hooligans?

https://twitter.com/phila_siu/status/1145681249232723968

https://www.usnews.com/dims4/USNEWS/a9fb4be/2147483647/thumbnail/640x420/quality/85/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fcom-usnews-beam-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2F1c%2F7e591420666bdaade822 4a0ec2aebc%2Fmedia%3Aeff35bda46bf47589634482c8626e 661Hong_Kong_Protests_64870.jpg

Looks like Vancouver 2011
https://cdn.japantimes.2xx.jp/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/f-hkhandover-b-20190702-870x580.jpg

[Manic!]

What do you all think now? Freedom fighters or hooligans?

https://twitter.com/phila_siu/status/1145681249232723968

https://www.usnews.com/dims4/USNEWS/a9fb4be/2147483647/thumbnail/640x420/quality/85/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fcom-usnews-beam-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2F1c%2F7e591420666bdaade822 4a0ec2aebc%2Fmedia%3Aeff35bda46bf47589634482c8626e 661Hong_Kong_Protests_64870.jpg

Looks like Vancouver 2011
https://cdn.japantimes.2xx.jp/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/f-hkhandover-b-20190702-870x580.jpg


If thats what it takes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udham_Singh

Udham Singh (26 December 1899 – 31 July 1940), was a revolutionary belonging to the Ghadar Party best known for his assassination in London of Michael O' Dwyer, the former lieutenant governor of the Punjab in India, on 13 March 1940. The assassination was in revenge for the Jallianwala Bagh massacre in Amritsar in 1919.[1] Singh was subsequently tried and convicted of murder and hanged in July 1940. While in custody, he used the name Ram Mohammad Singh Azad, which represents the three major religions of Punjab and his anti-colonial sentiment.[2]


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuYgICoMer8

[twitchyzero]

looks like the sunflower movement in taiwan few years ago
they didn't deface anything though

https://cdn.techinasia.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/13279068213_a787947c74_b.jpg

[asian_XL]

If thats what it takes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udham_Singh

Udham Singh (26 December 1899 – 31 July 1940), was a revolutionary belonging to the Ghadar Party best known for his assassination in London of Michael O' Dwyer, the former lieutenant governor of the Punjab in India, on 13 March 1940. The assassination was in revenge for the Jallianwala Bagh massacre in Amritsar in 1919.[1] Singh was subsequently tried and convicted of murder and hanged in July 1940. While in custody, he used the name Ram Mohammad Singh Azad, which represents the three major religions of Punjab and his anti-colonial sentiment.[2]


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuYgICoMer8

https://images.glaciermedia.ca/polopoly_fs/1.2137847.1450747397!/fileImage/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_804/canucks-riot.jpg

Watching the news yesterday, it reminds me the Vancouver riot. IMO I don't see a point to damage or take over the legislative council when no body was there and they decided to leave after 12am. To me the HK police is quite inexperience, some not sure where to stand, some dropped their shield etc. Police evacuated after 9pm, probably eating popcorn in front of the surveillance cameras, then plan to knock on the doors in the morning.

[Manic!]

https://images.glaciermedia.ca/polopoly_fs/1.2137847.1450747397!/fileImage/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_804/canucks-riot.jpg

Watching the news yesterday, it reminds me the Vancouver riot. IMO I don't see a point to damage or take over the legislative council when no body was there and they decided to leave after 12am. To me the HK police is quite inexperience, some not sure where to stand, some dropped their shield etc. Police evacuated after 9pm, probably eating popcorn in front of the surveillance cameras, then plan to knock on the doors in the morning.

no one was there because they where too busy sipping champagne. I here the news channels had a split screen. One side showing government officials clinking glasses the other side showing protesters demonstrating and breaking windows. I think the protesters did an effective job interrupting the celebrations.

https://www.scmp.com/video/hong-kong/3016769/hong-kong-leader-carrie-lam-makes-first-public-appearance-over-week-july-1

[whitev70r]

This was all staged to make protesters look bad. Police not incompetent, they were instructed by President Xi to let them in to create havoc. Some protesters were China sympathizers. CRP controlling the narrative.

[StylinRed]

they need the Chinese military to roll in to institute a curfew and maintain order through martial law uh oh that's where its headed if they keep it up

[Tim Budong]

I mean... there is no way the police would let people storm a gov't building without resistance. This happened yesterday.

It's not a great look for the HK people who are all peacefully protesting and it sort of gives "grandfather xi" an excuse to take further action

[bcedhk]

Most, including myself believe this was a setup by the government to give them leverage to hold on the protestors' demands. The fact they could barge into Legco so easily contradicts the police use of force during previous "riots" to suppress protestors from getting into legco.

On another hand, you have comically things like this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/c7xhih/protestors_entered_the_building_at_9pm_police/

where the police provide a status update on the protestors barging into legco at 9pm, when his rollie clearly shows 5pm.

As a result:

https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/c88xmt/hk_police_no_longer_wear_watches_in_their_video/

---
#2 It's quite odd how the whole crew (CE, SofS, SofJ, Police Chief and their support staff) all got together ready to go at 4am to address the press. That said, the CE basically brushed off the Cantonese/local reporters' questions but would provide very detailed responses to the foreign press. People in PR have pointed out this is a tactic was used to help China leverage to the international audience that this whole protest has become violent and skew them from the peaceful protest that happened in the morning.

[Traum]

This was all staged to make protesters look bad. Police not incompetent, they were instructed by President Xi to let them in to create havoc. Some protesters were China sympathizers. CRP controlling the narrative.
I remain thoroughly unconvinced that the HKSAR gov's scheme to make the protesters look bad has succeeded though -- at least it hasn't for those who are willing to seek the truth (or more semblance of truth).

From reading and watch the various protestor declarations, the "occupation" videos, the "rescue" operation videos, I honestly can't imagine how any sensible person would not sympathsize with the young protestors. Their plain and simple sincerity, and their undying love for their home (Hong Kong) cannot be more obvious. They may be unrefined with their means, but their actions and accusations are the direct results of tyranny and ridculous policies and lies from the HKSAR gov.

Of course, the gov supporters (and many Mainland Chinese) will not be swayed because it comes from a difference in fundamental values. You are not going to see changes in these people until their own core interests have been harmed. In some cases, they may even think it is OK for their own core interests to be sacrified "in the name of the greater good". FailFish