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Old 01-08-2013, 05:47 PM   #51
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Surprisingly, in this thread, the number of informative posts actually exceeds the number of idiotic posts. And for the intelligent posters, I salute you!
I'm very satisfied to say, there's been a significant change in the direction of First Nations threads.

I had only relatively recently joined RS when a thread concerning a counterfeit bill being passed arose, and the suspect was described as First Nations. Instantly, the thread exploded, "Never trust a Native," "Natives are all drunken, drug abusing, thieves," "I've never met a sober Indian," and these posts received avalanches of 'Thanks,' but never points. The outright racist posts seem to have since disappeared, only occasionally subtle racists tones remain, and even they seem to not arise from a genuine dislike or resentment towards First Nations people. The collective effort to dispel misconceptions, and above all, the willingness to discuss the issues and listen to the responses has actually had a tangible affect! Thank You, Tapioca, Dino, Grid, Graham, EB, CA, Lomac, and even you CiC (although Terry Nelson is a tool). As a person very proud to have a First Nations heritage, it makes me smile to see the change.
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Old 01-08-2013, 10:52 PM   #52
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In my opinion, The treaties and the reserves should be disbanded. We took what was theirs as the spoils of war, Whether right or wrong, Good or bad, It is what happened back then. Do you see (what's left of the) Mayans demanding ridiculous things because the Spanish were much more powerful and conquered them? No. Why should we give tax cuts, And allow them to have their own reserves when they are no different than me, or you...?
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Old 01-08-2013, 11:21 PM   #53
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You're sanctioning a murderer who still holds the spoils of war booty... who are you the Pope?

The first nations have pride in their race and so should any other race... like white pride.
Why should they sell themselves short, this is their right and as an occupying settler myself, I see this as first nations land.
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Old 01-08-2013, 11:48 PM   #54
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You're sanctioning a murderer who still holds the spoils of war booty... who are you the Pope?

The first nations have pride in their race and so should any other race... like white pride.
Why should they sell themselves short, this is their right and as an occupying settler myself, I see this as first nations land.
Occupying settler? Comon. Is this the 1850's? Like i said... Where else in the world do people who have been conquered given so many extra's as the Natives?
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Old 01-09-2013, 12:04 AM   #55
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You mean what other Zionist Commonwealth occupations are giving out as much... because no other entity comes to mind. The first nations of Canada are not asking anymore, they're demanding.
Would you go to war against them if a jungle war broke out in our mineral extraction zones?
I doubt it, they'd fight for pride while you'd travel to any other country to settle if there was a draft.
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Old 01-09-2013, 12:37 AM   #56
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In my opinion, The treaties and the reserves should be disbanded. We took what was theirs as the spoils of war, Whether right or wrong, Good or bad, It is what happened back then. Do you see (what's left of the) Mayans demanding ridiculous things because the Spanish were much more powerful and conquered them? No. Why should we give tax cuts, And allow them to have their own reserves when they are no different than me, or you...?
I think you have to understand the First Nation's people were never conquered to begin with. To disband treaties and reserves and justify it by using the spoils of war ideology would not work as it would be incorrectly applied.

The First Nations to my knowledge were allied and worked together with the early colonialists. Despite being primarily Nomadic, many were receptive to change and embraced the Western agriculture life style with an open mind. It was due to the fact that they were continually exploited by early settlers and the Indian department during the time.

It was obvious the Europeans were far more technologically advanced at the time and along with that comes a better lifestyle. You have to understand the First Nations were a group of people eager to learn, they saw what the Europeans had and they want to adapt it to their own culture. They agreed to recognize the sovereignty of the Queen because they were promised of all the greatness that comes along with her and Britain, when in fact quite the contrary happened.

I'm not sure if you know but treaties are a result of Royal Proclaimation. The King of Britain declared the recognition of Indian land and made it manditory for any transaction of Indian territory done through treaties. It was so settlers would just take over and set up camp wherever the hell they want, this dates back to 1763 so it's not something we can just get rid of.
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Old 01-09-2013, 12:45 AM   #57
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...let's not fool ourselves here. If First Nations went to war with Canada, they would get destroyed. Canada isn't exactly a world power when it comes to military but they have greater training, resources and numbers.

I agree with one of the above posters. They signed a legal document. Okay, Canada says "Dude, we were such dicks to you guys." and give them all the stuff Canada does already but still they want more.

What happens if Canada one day just up and says "No."? Do they declare war? Because Harper just has to give the US a call and it's goodbye First Nations if they use more agressive tactics. It wouldn't look good for Canada but in the event one day the government just says no more...what sort of leverage does First Nations have?
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Old 01-09-2013, 12:57 AM   #58
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...let's not fool ourselves here. If First Nations went to war with Canada, they would get destroyed.
What happened to the US in Iraq. If there was a war they would just go into hiding and come out at night to kill some civilians.
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Old 01-09-2013, 01:04 AM   #59
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True...that might happen but also consider that the Americans weren't on their home turf in Iraq (or Vietnam).

Also consider that even the Iraqis, Al Qaida, the Taliban, etc were all probably better funded and armed than First Nations.

I'm not suggesting we go to war but I'm wondering what the plan is if Canada says no. What happens when they reach the end of their white guilt and just say "Y'know what? We're done here."
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Old 01-09-2013, 06:27 AM   #60
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In my opinion, The treaties and the reserves should be disbanded. We took what was theirs as the spoils of war, Whether right or wrong, Good or bad, It is what happened back then. Do you see (what's left of the) Mayans demanding ridiculous things because the Spanish were much more powerful and conquered them? No. Why should we give tax cuts, And allow them to have their own reserves when they are no different than me, or you...?
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Occupying settler? Comon. Is this the 1850's? Like i said... Where else in the world do people who have been conquered given so many extra's as the Natives?
Australia and America make use of a comparable treaty process to Canada, and a number of other nations grant land rights to indigenous people.

Reserves were established by the Canadian Government more than a century ago, formal negotiations were undertaken and an agreement reached. The agreement cannot be nullified by the ancestors of one member, because you no longer consider it beneficial. The term, 'Indian Giver,' is oddly appropriate for your proposal.

First Nations people are only granted tax cuts for income earned on a reserve, it's hardly a generous benefit given the limited availability of work.

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True...that might happen but also consider that the Americans weren't on their home turf in Iraq (or Vietnam).

Also consider that even the Iraqis, Al Qaida, the Taliban, etc were all probably better funded and armed than First Nations.

I'm not suggesting we go to war but I'm wondering what the plan is if Canada says no. What happens when they reach the end of their white guilt and just say "Y'know what? We're done here."
You've proposed a silly, hypothetical question. Canada will not say, "no." Canada will not be offered exemption from the agreements it willfully entered, as the Supreme Court has routinely made clear. "White guilt" is not a consideration, only legal process. Canada only recently ended a formal policy of genocide, and will not be re-engaging in it to contravene the rulings of its courts. First Nations people have no need to hoard weapons, nor substitute teaching children ancestral stories and artist abilities for guerilla tactics and IED construction.
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Old 01-09-2013, 09:00 AM   #61
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What happens if Canada one day just up and says "No."? Do they declare war? Because Harper just has to give the US a call and it's goodbye First Nations if they use more agressive tactics. It wouldn't look good for Canada but in the event one day the government just says no more...what sort of leverage does First Nations have?
Ever heard of the Oka crisis? Look it up on Wikipedia.

It's not like the federal government hasn't tried a variety of tactics over the years to wean First Nations people off of the state coffers. Residential schools to turn First Nations into "self-sufficient" citizens, banning bands from hiring lawyers to pursue grievances in the court system, and so on.

What the government does is a matter of law backed by the courts. Most of these decisions made are based on legal risk assessments or follow litigation that the federal government loses. If the government defies a court decision, then you no longer have a functioning society because the rule of law is effectively null and void. You want to go down that road for the sake of saving some money?
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Old 01-09-2013, 09:14 AM   #62
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Zionist Commonwealth occupations
I'm just curious, But were you down at the peace arch the other day? Or perhaps haven't taken your medication today?
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Old 01-09-2013, 10:50 AM   #63
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You've proposed a silly, hypothetical question. Canada will not say, "no." Canada will not be offered exemption from the agreements it willfully entered, as the Supreme Court has routinely made clear. "White guilt" is not a consideration, only legal process.
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I'm not suggesting we go to war but I'm wondering what the plan is if Canada says no. What happens when they reach the end of their white guilt and just say "Y'know what? We're done here."
I don't think that is possible to do without making amendments to our Charter, or compromising our judicial system. The government of Canada is still held accountable in the court of law as part of the doctrine of responsible government.

For the government to say "No, we're through here", simply won't hold up in a court of law. The Indian Act is a part of our Charter under s.91, and a Supreme Court judge will slam down anything that infringes on our Charter.

It is the very reason why our courts have judicial independence, as the Supreme Court judge's decision is the final say, and the government has to stand down and comply.

What the government can do is make amendments to our Charter, but again that would be political suicide.
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Old 01-09-2013, 11:07 AM   #64
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I think you misunderstand me. This Idle No More movement has certain demands. They're so adamantly against C-45...what happens if the Harper government just ignores their requests and goes ahead with their plan? I don't mean cutting them off entirely. That seems unlikely but Canada could say this is what we have, this is what we can give you and you aren't getting any more.

And what if the protests get more intense? The Indian Act says blockades are illegal, no?
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Old 01-09-2013, 11:19 AM   #65
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they want their land back. but they are more than happy to keep modern medicine, glasses, pants, cars, hot water, and dump truck loads of money.

how many natives would prefer to have all of their land back with a loin cloth and a stick and stone axe to the modern life they have now?

ya, we took their land. but we gave them so much more than reserves, tax breaks, and money.


imo, reserves and the handouts are the problem. it gives too many of them a reason to not meld into the rest of society and it straight up tells them they are different.
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Old 01-09-2013, 11:30 AM   #66
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Northern BC and offshore BC has a ton of oil & gas ready to make BC rich like Alberta. Tons of money will be poured into BC but environmentalists and native groups protest area are reallly being a pain, some even threatening with terrorism if they get built "on our land."

I've heard that the American natives don't have much power as Canadian natives do because they've been conquered by the US instead of trying to co-exist/assimilate (Canada).
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Old 01-09-2013, 11:47 AM   #67
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For those that don't already know, I'm conservative as a MOFO, work in oil, caucasian, hate paying taxes etc... basically the opposite of a bleeding heart-tree hugger with very limited compassion for others and almost no concept of empathy.

But for some reason, I actually the injians' (Yes I know), if someone were to ask me what a "Canadian" is, the first thing that crosses my mind is the first nations people, and I actually appreciate the cultural contribution to this country more than most people will ever believe. I do think that it is reasonable for federal funds to be spent preserving Canada's true heritage and culture.

Now the catch, I lived in Hay River, Yellowknife, and the North side of Edmonton... all very heavy in aboriginal population compared to here lol.. and I can honestly say that the unfortunate result of the way things have transpired over the years is that the Govt has assisted in creating a very unhealthy environment. I believe the Govt knows this and thats why nothing will change, they are terrified of making it worse. The sense of entitlement amongst most of the injians' I have met is unreal, and quite sad really... and I don't think it helps them at all.

Nothing makes me happier than the odd FN person I run into at work who actually has their shit together, trouble is the environment most of these people grow up in... is not conducive to being successful, at least not in the typical North American sense... lol

I dunno, I do think this hunger strike is bull shit though, get off Lord Harpers lawn you gipsy bitch.
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Old 01-09-2013, 11:49 AM   #68
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British Columbia and the Federal government spent $15,332 per capita in 2010.

Alberta and the Federal government spent $16,888 per capita in 2010.

Saskatchewan and the Federal government spent $16,335 per capita in 2010.

Manitoba and the Federal government spent $17,070 per capita in 2010.

Ontario and the Federal government spent $15,324 per capita in 2010.

Quebec and the Federal government spent $11,148 per capita 2010.

New Brunswick and the Federal government spent $16,680 per capita in 2010.

Prince Edward Island and the Federal government spent $16,943 per capita in 2010.

Nova Scotia and the Federal government spent $15,673 per capita in 2010.

Newfoundland and the Federal government spent $19,623 per capita in 2010.

The following is an outline of the Consolidated Government Revenue and Expenditures
Spoiler!


Health, Social Services, Education, Housing, and Regional Planning and Development costs equal an average conservative total of $12,077 per capita.

As required by the Indian Act - the Federal Government assumes expenses associated with First Nations education, housing, community infrastructure (water and sewage systems), social support services, and health benefits. Including the cost of ongoing treaty negotiations, the Federal government spent $6168 per capita total on First Nations and Aboriginal people in 2011.

That amounts to a spending difference of at least $5909 per capita, greater than a 49% disparity.

Not surprisingly - one of the most fundamental complaints arising from reserves such as Attawapiskat is the low quality of education, health care, and infrastructure.

Given these figures, I'm straining to understand the perpetuation of the myth that First Nations people are severely entitled, and receiving benefits greatly above that of 'ordinary' Canadians.

Everyone screams - FUCK DAMN ENTITLED DRUNK INDIANS, but the real problem is THE DAMN ENTITLED DRUNK NEWFIE FISHERMAN. (I'm being facetious, of course).

I both welcome and strongly encourage a person to dispute my points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronin
I think you misunderstand me. This Idle No More movement has certain demands. They're so adamantly against C-45...what happens if the Harper government just ignores their requests and goes ahead with their plan? I don't mean cutting them off entirely. That seems unlikely but Canada could say this is what we have, this is what we can give you and you aren't getting any more.

And what if the protests get more intense? The Indian Act says blockades are illegal, no?
Nothing, and that's the essential point, and the source of so much frustration among First Nations people.

The Lubicon Cree currently have no treaty ceding land rights. A treaty has been sought for decades, no official agreement has currently been reached, but $14 billion in oil and gas has been extracted from the lands in question. I'm sure a treaty will be reached, and the timing will coincide with resource extraction being totally ceased.

The Algonquins of Barriere Lake have no treaty ceding land rights, but an are seeking an agreement. The land in question generates $100 million in annual revenue including logging and hydroelectric revenue. Imagine a significant portion of the land were transferred back to the Algonquins, and a typical self-governance treaty were assumed surrendering all tax exemptions and entitlements. The result - a preservation of culture, an ending of 'white guilt' money transfers, and a continued revenue stream via the jobs created by an environmentally sensitive logging. I see no downside, except for the Government, who lose a measure of control, do you?

The requests made are not unreasonable; they're beneficial to First Nations people and 'ordinary' Canadian Citizens, but perhaps not Government.

The only method of compelling Government to consider First Nations requests more seriously is to exert public pressure, and that's the objective of Idle No More.

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Old 01-09-2013, 12:37 PM   #69
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To counter:
yes but at least for the higher spendings per capita the provinces will get most of it back from income tax/property tax/corporate tax, HST. For natives as you seen from the audit report it's more of a sunk cost with little to show.
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Old 01-09-2013, 01:12 PM   #70
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You can not compare Canadian FN to USA American Indians. It is a completely different system and iirc they were given a lot more to start with in the beginning. Even if you look at the reservation system down there, it is far superior than ours. Native Americans were give LARGE blocks of land that are able to be self-sustaining due to the diverse resources whereas, in Canada...most reservations are no larger than a few city blocks.

And, I think a lot of people mix up FN Reservations in BC with Traditional Territory. Several FN bands are protesting things like oil pipelines from going through their Traditional Territory, not Reservations. Not that is makes a difference to the gov't however....the gov't will do what they want at the end of the day anyways. Example: Golden Ears Bridge is literally on top of a FN reservation. Its pretty brutal.

Here is a map of the USA vs and example of Canada (Van Island)



Attachment 15074

Attachment 15075

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Old 01-09-2013, 01:31 PM   #71
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To counter:
yes but at least for the higher spendings per capita the provinces will get most of it back from income tax/property tax/corporate tax, HST. For natives as you seen from the audit report it's more of a sunk cost with little to show.
First Nations and Aboriginal tax exemptions apply to a VERY limited criteria, it's not a sunk cost.

Employment Income: only if the income earning activity is situated on a reserve, ie. working in a band office.

Business Income: only if the actual income-earning activities of the business take place on a reserve.
Quote:
Example 1
John is a self-employed Indian logger who lives on a reserve. He cuts timber on land off the reserve and sells it off the reserve. John's income from this business is considered to be taxable, because his income-earning activities and customers are off the reserve.

Example 2
Delia is an Indian who owns a retail store on a reserve. The store sells goods to both Indian and non-Indian customers. Since Delia's business activities take place on a reserve, her income from this business is tax-exempt.
GST/HST: in relations to goods, only if they are delivered to a reserve by a vendor or vendor's agent; in relation to services, no exemptions under any circumstances.

More information is available here:
Information for Indians

The essential point:
The overwhelming majority of First Nations people pay taxes equivalent to any 'ordinary' Canadian.
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Old 01-09-2013, 01:44 PM   #72
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before i started reading this thread today i thought the idle no more was some kind of canadawide eco-movement about not letting your engine idle unnecessarily.

i seriously need to start reading the papers...
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Old 01-09-2013, 01:55 PM   #73
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Old 01-10-2013, 09:48 AM   #74
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I fear this is completely unraveling...

Chief Theresa Spence changes her mind, won't attend meeting with PM | Canada | News | Toronto Sun

They are also saying that the reason the press conference has been delayed is because they can not resolve the list of demands as there is fighting among the chiefs due to different needs and wants.

I must admit...I am pretty disappointed.
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Old 01-10-2013, 10:02 AM   #75
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Now the Governor General says he's coming. I don't know why he would since the Governor General is a symbolic position and has no real authority on the matters at hand.

LOL I think Harper called her bluff. She's not prepared and they have no solid agenda to present to the government. Plus you know someone's going to bring up all the money that went to her town of 1500 so she gives some excuse not to meet with Harper like "Oh, the Governor General won't be there! I'm OUTRAGED that THE QUEEN doesn't care about First Nations!". But now the Governor General will be there...so she better attend.

Can't wait to see what happens. I'm guessing they just take some pictures. If they're lucky, the government will agree to meet them again but they got nothing right now, just like Occupy had nothing for months.

INB4 "I've been on 'hunger strike' for weeks. I'm too weak and sick to attend this meeting."
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