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Vancouver Off-Topic / Current EventsThe off-topic forum for Vancouver, funnies, non-auto centered discussions, WORK SAFE. While the rules are more relaxed here, there are still rules. Please refer to sticky thread in this forum.
Ghandi had spent the prior two years in prison, essentially on starvation diet during that time. The condition of Ghandi and Spence's body entering the hunger strike make your comparison irrelevant. I've also not seen a news report featuring Spence stepping on scale daily, so your thesis that she's not lost a pound is also irrelevant since its indefensible.
I've looked through the financials, but must have missed the one including the details of a stock portfolio. Regardless, I don't need to see them to correct you.
Attawapiskat is pro-development, the contract they have with De Beers is evidence of that position. It is not at all surprisingly that Attawapiskat invests in development companies, it's consistent with the general position they take on resources. Not all Bands are Pro-Development, and some of them have spoken out against the Enbridge pipeline.
Either way, eating soup is not a hunger strike.
How about you do a Google search for Attawapiskat. It's on their website, under financial details. They own roughly 1400 shared of Enbridge for a little over $50k. Not much but it seems to be a conflict if one of the points of the Idle No More movement is environmental impact and they're investing in one of the companies most involved in the pipelines.
It also seems they make plenty of money. Their records show surpluses in the annual budget.
Regardless, this just sounds like whining that will eventually go away and be forgotten like all the other blockades and protests and Occupy.
How about you do a Google search for Attawapiskat. It's on their website, under financial details. They own roughly 1400 shared of Enbridge for a little over $50k. Not much but it seems to be a conflict if one of the points of the Idle No More movement is environmental impact and they're investing in one of the companies most involved in the pipelines.
It also seems they make plenty of money. Their records show surpluses in the annual budget.
Regardless, this just sounds like whining that will eventually go away and be forgotten like all the other blockades and protests and Occupy.
No, it's not a conflict. The 'Idle No More' movement does not propose industrial development be halted.
Strictly speaking, a supporter of the 'Idle No More' movement would need to be in favour of a stricter Environmental Assessment of the Enbridge project before it proceeds, but not opposed to it in principle.
'Idle No More' protests the Conservative Governments changes to the Environmental Assessment Process in bill C-45. The Omnibus bill includes changes such as considering only commercially valuable fisheries during Environmental assessments, and this is an obvious issue for a people concerned with Environmental protection. 'Idle No More' also protests the lack of progress made on treaty negotiations, and a contention point in many of those is the role of Bands in the Environment Assessment process. The majority of current treaties entitle a Band to send a letter to the Environment Minister, which is something any of us could do. Out of the treaties I've read or discussed, the strongest position is a requirement for the Environment Minister to acknowledge receipt of a Band's letter on an issue.
I know who can get this movement into gear! Terry Nelson is more than capable with his penchant for direct conflict!
On a serious note however, I'm having a bit of a hard time pinpointing the purpose of the movement myself. What if there is in fact a resolution to the Bill proposal? Will they go the way of #Occupy and start blaming things that had nothing to do with the original point just because there's a spotlight on them? Too many times I noticed that #Occupy stopped blaming the "1%" for their problems and started pointing fingers at organizations that damaged the environment, perform inhumane medical testing, etc. Are these related to financial unrest at all? They have Greenpeace and PETA respectively for those.
Once again, I'd like to thank Mindbomber for single-handedly explaining what these things actually mean, and doing so continually in the face of sarcasm, mild racism and occasional ignorance.
I'm concerned. I liked what the conservatives did for the first few years, and shocking! it was done during a minority gov't. He gets a majority and suddenly its a fire sale of conservative wet dreams concerning development, environmental review and treatment of some core Canadian values as something that can be negotiated away.
To sit there and say, "but its not a 'for realz' hunger strike" is kind of missing the point. I could care less for what she eats drinks and shits. The idea is, there are MASSIVE legal changes being undertaken and its going to alter the way we, as a country do business for a generation. Long after the current gov't is out of office, we have the potential of feeling the effects.
The key is going to be...are we ok with that?
Even better...at least now we are at least asking the question. Maybe the answer is yes. Who knows. It's better than being blind to it.
Winnipeg Free Press reported this morning that the INM movement had blocked a rail line and someone was tampering with the rail signals, which is illegal. VIA said they would investigate and prosecute those responsible. Tampering with rail signals thus endangering lives is more than mischief. It's terrorism. I'd give these protests another two weeks maybe. By then the media will be tired of covering small groups of people hanging around burning trash barrels in below zero weather.
C-45 is a massive bill that includes a ton of shit ranging from FN issues to Hazardous Materials to the grain commissions and builds on previously controversial bills such as that one that cut massive amounts of funding to the environment last year. Very few people know what Bill C-45 contains because nobody wants to sit and read all 500 pages of it.
These massive bills concern me because its all or nothing with them. You can't pass parts of the bill while rejecting the other and we need to rely on of representatives to actually read the whole fucking thing. I also think these massive bills are a fantastic opportunity for the gov't to pass shit that wouldn't normally get passed because it is buried in between shit nobody cares about.
I appreciate the these protest for bring light to this bill because as average Canadians, I don't think any of us would have any idea what "C-45" is. In regards to the actual protest, its a little different. The unfortunate thing is that most people don't know about about C-45 and don't know about FN issues, the Treaty process, the Indian Act, the Reservation system, etc. Hell, I studied it for years....worked with the process....and I barely grasp it. I think it is a muddled mess.
Do I agree with them protesting? I agree with the right to protest period. I think the problem is, that message is a little unclear. Yes, we need aboriginal rights, faster treaty process, more help for the north communities, etc....but I am not seeing that message.
Someone just asked me "why don't they all just unit and fight together? why don't they elect one person to lead them?" My answer is it would be impossible. Imagine taking every single Canadian and uniting them for one cause and only one cause. Wouldn't happen. Everyone wants something different because different thing effect them. FN on the west coast are totally different than those in the north....or those in Ontario. There are 1000s of Indian band....some are in the middle of the treaty process, some don't want treaty, some have joined nation councils, some fight with each other, some form new councils, some bands have 20 members, and some have 20,000 members. People seem to forget this. We can't deal with them as one unit. Some nations have been given millions of dollars while others have been given nothing. Some nations have floundered from piss-poor management while others have flourished and become independent. You can visit some reservations that have massive modern infrastructures and a well developed economic plan while others have a mailbox. The FNs of Canada can not be dealt with with one large paint brush....and I think this is the problem.
Its one big muddled fucked up mess...and I have no idea how these problems will be solved. Its all very confusing and frustrating.
I found the same thing with the Occupy "movement".
At first, I supported what was happening, throughout major cities all over. Collectively, people saying, the top 2% control 50-60% of the wealth. A ridiculous number. It wasn't about socialism, it wasn't about hand outs, it was the idea that the tax tables could be modified to make it a fair system.
THEN...it went into a bizarre area. They finally released their manifesto, and it was a mockery, asking for a change to everything under the sun and lost focus.
The same thing could happen here. I think you stand a chance of affecting "change" if you pick the ONE item you want changed. What are you truly trying to accomplish, something that those in the core of your group agree with, and canadians at large can support. You might have to leave some stuff on the table.
Looking forward to seeing more blockades and Im betting the Zionist media will be reporting peoples first world problems all the while ignoring the first nations plight.
She taught me right from wrong and always told me to stay positive and help others no matter how small the deed - that helping others gives us meaning to carry on. The sun is out today and it's a new day. Life is good. I just needed a slap in the face.
I have personally explained the reasons why the relationship between Canada and First Nations is the way that it is on other threads, but there are too many people here that are ignorant, misinformed, and have had no experience with First Nations and their communities.
I'm glad that dino, Gridlock, and MindBomber are fighting the good fight and trying to explain to all of the brilliant minds on RS the situation with First Nations in Canada.
I'm going to be super ignorant but has anyone here met a successful native? I've travelled throughout Canada especially in cities/towns near reserves and I never met one in all my life. Every native I've seen from personal anecdote they are all criminals/drunks/bums/entitlement complex/racists. Your tax dollars at work!
by successful I mean a respectable job or white-collar professional/expert tradesmen who earned their success INDEPENDENTLY. Don't cite the ones in Westbank because they just lease out the land they got tax-free.
My opinion is that due to the dependency on money from the government, theres no motivation for natives to pursue success. See the "Welfare Trap" as an example. I think Canada should now just abolish the Indian act, say sorry to the Natives for what Canada/British Empire did 200 years ago one more time, perhaps pay a final settlement fee and stop giving money to the natives.
Unfortunately in my personal experiences, most that I have met have fit the stereotype, feeling victimized, entitled to everything etc. There are some that are successful and a bunch of new-middle class citizens. For some reason though they seem to be pretty few, and far in between.
My opinion is that due to the dependency on money from the government, theres no motivation for natives to pursue success. See the "Welfare Trap" as an example. I think Canada should now just abolish the Indian act, say sorry to the Natives for what Canada/British Empire did 200 years ago one more time, perhaps pay a final settlement fee and stop giving money to the natives.
You know, I took a class in high school and brought up the idea of generations being dependent on a system that provides for their needs. I was derided for being a 'racist' and 'insensitive'.
I suppose some of that's coming out now because I had written a post questioning why 4.3% of the population had a fully integrated special interest program ranging from access to the crown right down to its own justice and court system but I just couldn't hit "Submit Reply". I guess I've been conditioned to believe that Natives deserve more than the rest of us.
Anyhow, I'm not a racist. I would rather like to see other groups like Asians (11% of the population) or Indo-Canadians (4% of the population) receive similar benefits, or nobody receive them at all to ensure that there is no ill will.
I think Tapioca believes anybody who criticizes the Natives, their spending, or their actions is 'ignorant' which is understandable. There are certainly a lot of negative attitudes out there and I've seen racial slurs come up on this site on this topic. But I don't think we're focusing on those perceptions some people may have. I think we're looking at the facts, even those from Ezra Lavant and Sun News, and asking some questions that need to be asked.
And I'll use that to circle around back to the point of this thread and the original post.
What does this movement hope to accomplish? And is blocking borders and sabotaging rail lines the best way to go about it?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by MG1
She taught me right from wrong and always told me to stay positive and help others no matter how small the deed - that helping others gives us meaning to carry on. The sun is out today and it's a new day. Life is good. I just needed a slap in the face.
I'm going to be super ignorant but has anyone here met a successful native? I've travelled throughout Canada especially in cities/towns near reserves and I never met one in all my life. Every native I've seen from personal anecdote they are all criminals/drunks/bums/entitlement complex/racists. Your tax dollars at work!
by successful I mean a respectable job or white-collar professional/expert tradesmen who earned their success INDEPENDENTLY. Don't cite the ones in Westbank because they just lease out the land they got tax-free.
My opinion is that due to the dependency on money from the government, theres no motivation for natives to pursue success. See the "Welfare Trap" as an example. I think Canada should now just abolish the Indian act, say sorry to the Natives for what Canada/British Empire did 200 years ago one more time, perhaps pay a final settlement fee and stop giving money to the natives.
Dude, why are you in Canada anyway? because your parents are here... when did your background come here and why?
Its like who leaves their family, immediate and extended, to start a new life in another country... did they escape some kind of persecution or low standard of living to banish them selves here? or did your background by chance be the Anglo Caucasians that were taken from their British parents and made to live here?
by successful I mean a respectable job or white-collar professional/expert tradesmen who earned their success INDEPENDENTLY. Don't cite the ones in Westbank because they just lease out the land they got tax-free.
Yes, a native guy who got into the IT business. He was unable to even visit the reserve as he had been threatened for "selling out."
Anyhow, I'm not a racist. I would rather like to see other groups like Asians (11% of the population) or Indo-Canadians (4% of the population) receive similar benefits, or nobody receive them at all to ensure that there is no ill will.
If the government tried to cut off natives from getting paid, they would create an armed insurrection like the taliban in Afghanistan. I swear to god I could see that happening. The Canadian government will be paying native people in perpetuity to avoid that from happening.
Yes, a native guy who got into the IT business. He was unable to even visit the reserve as he had been threatened for "selling out."
Haha...what a shit hole ghetto but can you really label everyone like that?,Anyways I respect everybody's Opinion,even the "racist" ones.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason00S2000
If the government tried to cut off natives from getting paid, they would create an armed insurrection like the taliban in Afghanistan. I swear to god I could see that happening. The Canadian government will be paying native people in perpetuity to avoid that from happening.
more like the Mexican drug cartel,look what happens when their own government doesn't give them shit & their on there own for income in illegal drug/gun trade
How'd these people manage to survive in that region before the age of government funding? Must have been harsh.
Certainly, it definitely would have been harsh.
Prior to European influence, First Nations people were primarily a nomadic society sustained by subsistence hunting and gathering. To return to a completely traditional lifestyle would be impossible, because of the vast land requirements associated with it. The sto:lo people did not traditionally number beyond a few thousand individuals, the lands that once sustained those communities are now occupied by millions of individuals living in the cities of Hope, Chilliwack, Agassiz, Mission, Abbotsford, Langley, Surrey... etc. Reserves and Government subsidization were a means to industrialize Canada by getting the inhabitants out of the way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by noclue
I'm going to be super ignorant but has anyone here met a successful native? I've travelled throughout Canada especially in cities/towns near reserves and I never met one in all my life. Every native I've seen from personal anecdote they are all criminals/drunks/bums/entitlement complex/racists. Your tax dollars at work!
by successful I mean a respectable job or white-collar professional/expert tradesmen who earned their success INDEPENDENTLY. Don't cite the ones in Westbank because they just lease out the land they got tax-free.
My opinion is that due to the dependency on money from the government, theres no motivation for natives to pursue success. See the "Welfare Trap" as an example. I think Canada should now just abolish the Indian act, say sorry to the Natives for what Canada/British Empire did 200 years ago one more time, perhaps pay a final settlement fee and stop giving money to the natives.
I've met countless successful First Nations people, they've pursued careers in law, medicine, trades, education, art, and every other other field you'd expect to encounter a person of any other race. I've also met First Nations people who have achieved more, mediocre, success in life, but not a disproportionately high number compared to the Caucasian, Indo-Canadian, Asian people I know.
Your thesis that social programs abolish any motivation for a First Nations person to pursue success is fundamentally flawed, because you fail to realize, every person of any race is entitled to the same benefits. You are entitled to quit your job, wait a few months, and then claim welfare, living off $750 a month indefinitely. You would not though, so to reason a First Nations person would, just because you could, is absurd.
There are Bands across the country taking out private multi-million dollar loans to fund the legal costs required to attain self-governance and be exempted from the Indian Act, so many are already ahead of you on that point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason00S2000
Yes, a native guy who got into the IT business. He was unable to even visit the reserve as he had been threatened for "selling out."
In all my life, I've never heard anything so absurd. If your story is true, there's more to the IT guy's situation that simply being successful.
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Bastardo
You know, I took a class in high school and brought up the idea of generations being dependent on a system that provides for their needs. I was derided for being a 'racist' and 'insensitive'.
I suppose some of that's coming out now because I had written a post questioning why 4.3% of the population had a fully integrated special interest program ranging from access to the crown right down to its own justice and court system but I just couldn't hit "Submit Reply". I guess I've been conditioned to believe that Natives deserve more than the rest of us.
I think Canada has a responsibility atone for its actions, and so if the policy of past-Governments can be reasonably said to have contributed to the disproportional representation of one specific race in the prison system then an effort should be made to correct the imbalance. It's been established imprisonment is generally an ineffective 'rehabilitation' method for First Nation people, and so an effort should be made to find something that does work, and to correct the disproportional figures by breaking multi-generational cycles. I'll also point out, and I know you've read my say this previously, First Nations people generally do not receive an enormous measure of special benefits. It may seem as such, but there are only a select number of cases where that's true, and mostly do to past-Governments poorly executed attempts at pushing First Nations people aside (Post-Secondary Education funding, you might remember, once came with the caveat of relinquishing status). Most often, First Nations people just receive funding through different channels because of the Indian Act, so it seems like they're being given special treatment when they're really not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason00S2000
If the government tried to cut off natives from getting paid, they would create an armed insurrection like the taliban in Afghanistan. I swear to god I could see that happening. The Canadian government will be paying native people in perpetuity to avoid that from happening.
I will again note, First Nations people really do not receive substantial benefits beyond those offered to any person of any race.
If the Canadian Government were to stop heavily subsidizing Post-Secondary Education, turning it into a bourgeoisies privilege, an armed insurrection would also take place.
Last edited by MindBomber; 01-08-2013 at 09:09 AM.
I think Tapioca believes anybody who criticizes the Natives, their spending, or their actions is 'ignorant' which is understandable. There are certainly a lot of negative attitudes out there and I've seen racial slurs come up on this site on this topic. But I don't think we're focusing on those perceptions some people may have. I think we're looking at the facts, even those from Ezra Lavant and Sun News, and asking some questions that need to be asked.
My statement was not intended to give people like Chief Spence a free pass. My statement was directed to those who talk about getting rid of Indian reserves, or about taking away "programs" for First Nations, or who those who think that First Nations shouldn't claim previous entitlements that are based on agreements signed a long time ago.
The system of reserves and Indian "entitlements", programs or whatever you want to call them is based largely based on two things:
1. The law: S.91 of the Constitution, the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and the treaties that the British and Canadian governments have signed with First Nations all across the country.
2. Supreme Court decisions which have affirmed First Nation treaties and rights.
I encourage anyone interested to actually read what s.91 of the Constitution, s.35 of the Charter, or any of the treaties say so that you can start to understand why we have a Department of Indian Affairs, why the government continues to give money to First Nations, and why, unfortunately, people like Chief Spence sometimes come along. The links are here:
Of course some will ask, why don't we just get rid of the Indian Act? Remove the special status of First Nations by statute. Jean Chretien (remember him?) already tried that... in 1969 in the famous "White Paper":
Indian Chiefs opposed this proposal. From the early 1970s to the present, a number of disputes have been brought to the courts which have not only affirmed existing First Nation rights, but also given life to previously undefined concepts like Aboriginal title. Aboriginal title basically means that First Nations continue to have an entitlement to any land that they used historically until it that right has been extinguished through formal means, such as a treaty, or other agreement. An example of the concept of Aboriginal title in action: Aboriginal title is why First Nations in northern BC are protesting the Enbridge pipeline.
Yes, a native guy who got into the IT business. He was unable to even visit the reserve as he had been threatened for "selling out."
There are going to be assholes everywhere.
Some people will be jealous. We lived on the same street, we ate the same shit and had the same hardships...how'd you get out and I didn't?
Instead of looking honestly and saying, maybe he wasn't drinking as much, and maybe he paid a bit more attention, and maybe, just maybe, he caught a lucky break(which we ALL do), its easier to point a finger, call him names and say he's a sell out.
That's not a native problem. That's a human problem.
Surprisingly, in this thread, the number of informative posts actually exceeds the number of idiotic posts. And for the intelligent posters, I salute you!
__________________ Do Not Put Aftershave on Your Balls. -604CEFIRO Looks like I'm gonna have some hot sex again tonight...OOPS i got the 6 pack. that wont last me the night, I better go back and get the 24 pack! -Turbo E kinda off topic but obama is a dilf - miss_crayon Honest to fucking Christ the easiest way to get a married woman in the mood is clean the house and do the laundry.....I've been with the same girl almost 17 years, ask me how I know. - quasi
Looking forward to seeing more blockades and Im betting the Zionist media will be reporting peoples first world problems all the while ignoring the first nations plight.
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