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Old 01-16-2013, 11:06 AM   #201
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Originally Posted by Soundy
So from the article, the Federal government in the 2010-11 fiscal year, gave Attawapiskat around $17.6M. That's on the order of nearly $13,000 per person coming into the town... now if we're going to talk "equality", and assuming around one million status natives in Canada (I believe that's the last number I heard reported), that means the feds are shoveling $13,000,000,000 ($13 billion) at FNs every year. Obviously the actual figures vary from one group to the next, but by any reckoning, I think that rates as "tons of money".
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Indian Affairs department budgets are public information, you'll see they are under $7 billion.
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Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell, and also the other way round, to consider the most wretched sort of life as paradise.

But what about the money the bands already have from investments and assets? Why not pour that money back into the community?


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I find it annoying that people are automatically labelled a racist if they want to speak up against this. I'm not saying that is the case on RS, but just a general feeling I get when I read responses to anti-idlenomore comments on FB, news sites, etc.
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The art of leadership... consists in consolidating the attention of the people against a single adversary and taking care that nothing will split up that attention.
I agree with Redlines entirely on this perception. And I don't think its happening here on RS but I've read some pretty things on Twitter in reference to those who didn't support it, especially in the early days of this movement when I was trying to figure it out. Although I realize a person sending a tweet doesn't represent the opinion of the whole, these tweets are the thoughts and feelings of real people involved in Idle No More and these statements do come from a real place.
This "If you're not with us, you're against us" attitude likely isn't winning any support from the undecided.



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BTW, that National Post article I linked a couple pages back, has a line claiming it costs around $250,000 to build a house on a reserve, and calculated that for "X" money put in by the government, they could build "only" Y number of houses...

To which I say, bullshit. Even considering the cost of bringing in materials, it shouldn't cost anywhere near a quarter-mil to build a *sufficient* house. A decent-sized house, suitable to the environment, with plenty of room, should be do-able for under $100k - you can get two and a half times as many houses for that.
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For the folk-community does not exist on the fictitious value of money but on the results of productive labor, which is what gives money its value

Who is making the decisions on who to hire to build these homes? Have they taken steps to ensure that nobody is getting kickbacks for these contracts? If $250k per home is the winning bid, I'd hate to see how high those losing bids went.



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It was said about Occupy, and it applies just as much here: if these protesters took all the time and energy they spend protesting, and put into getting their hands dirty to actually DO something, they'd be a lot further ahead, short-term AND long-term, and a lot more useful would actually get done.
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Old 01-16-2013, 11:30 AM   #202
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"unceded coast Salish territory"

I'm usually a pro-activist guy, but I do not support this movement. I believe we should all respect aboriginal heritage and culture, not rights. The 'they were here first' argument just does not resonate with me at all. Equal rights and equal treatment for all Canadians is what I support. I find it annoying that people are automatically labelled a racist if they want to speak up against this. I'm not saying that is the case on RS, but just a general feeling I get when I read responses to anti-idlenomore comments on FB, news sites, etc.
THIS.

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Old 01-16-2013, 11:51 AM   #203
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But what about the money the bands already have from investments and assets? Why not pour that money back into the community?
Not all First Nations have investments of their own. Many First Nations' investments are still controlled by the federal government where there are specific rules for using those monies.

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Who is making the decisions on who to hire to build these homes? Have they taken steps to ensure that nobody is getting kickbacks for these contracts? If $250k per home is the winning bid, I'd hate to see how high those losing bids went.
I can assure you that the decisions for building homes are pretty watertight, particularly if the First Nation is still an "Indian Act" First Nation. Aboriginal Affairs doesn't have a bunch of people sitting on their bums all day - every risk is considered (whether it comes in the form of hiring contractors, etc.) and every decision is subject to several levels of scrutiny which is why housing on reserve takes such a long time to get built.
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Old 01-16-2013, 12:20 PM   #204
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Hi El Bastardo,

I'll respond in a divided format, as it ensures clarity.

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But what about the money the bands already have from investments and assets? Why not pour that money back into the community?
I've not delved deeply into Attawapiskat's books; although they're the most prolific current example, I haven't found the time.

In the instances of other Bands with considerable investments and assets, however, you'll see they've done as you suggest. The Musqueam, Squamish, Okanagan, and Osoyoos Bands have invested in their individual communities.

The majority of Bands have limited, if any, investments or assets, and do not have direct control over how they are utilized.

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I agree with Redlines entirely on this perception. And I don't think its happening here on RS but I've read some pretty things on Twitter in reference to those who didn't support it, especially in the early days of this movement when I was trying to figure it out. Although I realize a person sending a tweet doesn't represent the opinion of the whole, these tweets are the thoughts and feelings of real people involved in Idle No More and these statements do come from a real place.

This "If you're not with us, you're against us" attitude likely isn't winning any support from the undecided.
I've not engaged myself in the discussion on Twitter, because it has historically proven itself to not be venue facilitating intelligent discussion - quite the opposite. Following the 2012 Presidential election, were racially prejudice posts not trending?

Twitter aside, speaking in terms of the entire discussion: I hold myself to a high standard of conduct, and expect all others taking any position to assume the same responsibility. I've generally been approving of RS and Facebook, but Media Comments sections and apparently Twitter have been abysmal whether supportive or not. You also know, outright racism against indigenous people is quite prevalent, we've both read the threads dating back a couple years, and that can lead to emotions being a bit raw for people supportive of 'Idle No More.' Even Graeme had a little moment a couple pages back, I think understandably.

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Who is making the decisions on who to hire to build these homes? Have they taken steps to ensure that nobody is getting kickbacks for these contracts? If $250k per home is the winning bid, I'd hate to see how high those losing bids went.
I won't restate what Tapioca has said, but take note of my earlier response to Soundy, I do not find $250k especially unreasonable given the cost of transport and home construction.

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THIS.

THANKS.
Hi toyobaru,

If I've overstepped, accept my apology

As you've seen above, I welcome well-informed discussion with anyone who wishes to engage me in it.

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Old 01-16-2013, 02:50 PM   #205
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I agree with Redlines entirely on this perception. And I don't think its happening here on RS but I've read some pretty things on Twitter in reference to those who didn't support it, especially in the early days of this movement when I was trying to figure it out. Although I realize a person sending a tweet doesn't represent the opinion of the whole, these tweets are the thoughts and feelings of real people involved in Idle No More and these statements do come from a real place.
This "If you're not with us, you're against us" attitude likely isn't winning any support from the undecided.
Isn't this a bit of a double standard though?

There really is no organization of the Idle movement. There are people that are coordinating things like protests and the like, but there is no central control. It's the same that was said of Occupy before it. A news crew can go in and pick any old person they see, have them speak to the Occupy movement and they become the face of the movement for that day. So if you grab someone that says, "fuck this, I'm here for the free food." you have single handedly diminished the protest with selective media coverage.

So the same thing happens here. You can find examples of angry tweets/posts/messages from FN people and say there is an angry undertone of with us or against us attitudes that don't bring the average canadians together. Do these people speak for the collective? Hell, I can hop on my twitter right now and put angry things on it with an #idlenomore hashtag and speak for a movement that I am not a part of, if I wanted to.

Why don't all Canadians have to answer to the racist and bigotted comments of our fellow Canadians? How about RS members?
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Old 01-16-2013, 04:30 PM   #206
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Why don't all Canadians have to answer to the racist and bigotted comments of our fellow Canadians? How about RS members?

Well my problem wasn't entirely with the bigoted language. When I lived downtown years ago I was called a 'Fucking Immigrant' by a group of Native protesters in front of the Catholic church while I was walking by and told to 'Go back to my own country'. I'm an adult. I can handle that kind of language and I realize it likely doesn't represent the views of all first nations against people in the 95.7%. Vice versa. If anyone of Aboriginal lineage hears a white person call them a "chug" or a "spearchucker" they don't believe that all white people believe this. If they do, they're just as ignorant as John Q. Molson belching loudly at reruns of Corner Gas and complaining about how many immigrants he sees nowadays. People are entitled to their ignorance but that doesn't make it my issue.

I do have a problem with the perception of those who don't support the movement. Either with them being called 'racist' or 'uneducated' or 'ignorant'. Simply put, they don't agree with the movement. Not agreeing with the movement does not equate to racism.

It seems as if the cry of racism is the go-to for some members of this movement. Its easy, it paints people with a very wide brush, and based on the history of relations between the 4.3% and the rest of Canada (and you'll find MindBomber agreeing with me on this one in his earlier post) it may not be far from the truth in some cases based on historical precedent and statistics. But opposition isn't always steeped in racism and I think its wrong to try to play off of "white guilt" in the pursuit of support for this half-baked movement.



So.... all of the drivers inconvenienced were white? Or were the other non-Caucasian drivers happy for the inconvenience? Or should all left wing magazines have to answer for the statement of this magazine. I'm not quite sure. But hey, they weren't with you so they must be against you right?

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Those who want to live, let them fight, and those who do not want to fight in this world of eternal struggle do not deserve to live.


But, as I've said earlier, I'm an adult who can make up his own mind. And I made up my mind to not support this movement based on the movement itself. I'm not alone in my conclusions and how I came to them. According to some, I'd be "ignorant" but, honestly, I don't care because two things are happening.

1) The movement is distancing itself from it's public "face". Chief Spence met with the Governor General and the Prime Minister met with Native leaders, yet the hunger strike continues and her demands are inconsistent. She seems to be "over" in Idle No More. She still has a platform. She still has supporters. But her credibility has waned.

2) Some of the organization and leadership is beginning to pull away from people they don't want to be associated with stating that their mission is now to educate the nation about treaty rights and Aboriginal issues. Other Native leaders who have associated themselves with the movement are continuing to remain in the spotlight for their extremist promises. The loudest clap gets the attention and I wouldn't be surprised if folks who didn't know much about the movement now equate it to Native demands to avoid domestic terrorism.


The movement, through its lack of cohesion, has been discredited on two fronts. Sure, it will continue, but for the brief time the spotlight was held too many people wasted their chance to make something truly great happen. Instead, I believe those that would support Native causes regardless of what they are will continue to do so but those folks who could have been persuaded to help with this movement have been alienated.
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Old 01-16-2013, 06:55 PM   #207
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On your final point, I unfortunately must disagree. The objectives of the 'Idle No More' movement are not achievable through conventional labouring, because they primarily involve parliamentary issues that require initiative at the upper levels of Government.
They don't need parliamentary support to put some sweat into helping themselves. Indeed, that's something that can be done IN SPITE of the federal government. Hell, they want to be self-governing, the first step toward that is to become more self-sufficient. When you're RELYING on handouts, you're at the mercy of those providing them. Instead of saying, "give me the handouts, but with less control/accountability/oversight", isn't it better to say, "I no longer need your handouts, so fuck you and your iron fist"?

The point is to MAKE YOUR OWN CHANGE, rather than trying to force someone else to change things for you. There's so much time and energy in this world wasted on COMPLAINING.
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Old 01-16-2013, 07:02 PM   #208
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1) The movement is distancing itself from it's public "face". Chief Spence met with the Governor General and the Prime Minister met with Native leaders, yet the hunger strike continues and her demands are inconsistent. She seems to be "over" in Idle No More. She still has a platform. She still has supporters. But her credibility has waned.
A caller to the radio a couple days ago made a good point: she's been off proper nutrition for a long time now. That alone tends to cause... well, let's call it a confused perspective, in almost everyone. To put it bluntly, it's highly likely that her hunger strike (sorry, "liquid diet") is making her less and less coherent. This is why it was a bad idea to start with: the very thing you're doing to try to get attention, will eventually eat away (pardon the pun) at your credibility.
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Old 01-16-2013, 07:20 PM   #209
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The point is to MAKE YOUR OWN CHANGE, rather than trying to force someone else to change things for you. There's so much time and energy in this world wasted on COMPLAINING.

Same thing with #SaveBCfilm


Everyone wants the GOVERNMENT to fix their lives!
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Old 01-16-2013, 07:23 PM   #210
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The point is to MAKE YOUR OWN CHANGE, rather than trying to force someone else to change things for you. There's so much time and energy in this world wasted on COMPLAINING.
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Old 01-16-2013, 07:33 PM   #211
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They don't need parliamentary support to put some sweat into helping themselves. Indeed, that's something that can be done IN SPITE of the federal government. Hell, they want to be self-governing, the first step toward that is to become more self-sufficient. When you're RELYING on handouts, you're at the mercy of those providing them. Instead of saying, "give me the handouts, but with less control/accountability/oversight", isn't it better to say, "I no longer need your handouts, so fuck you and your iron fist"?

The point is to MAKE YOUR OWN CHANGE, rather than trying to force someone else to change things for you. There's so much time and energy in this world wasted on COMPLAINING.
Soundy,

Please, go back and read over my earlier posts.

Honestly, I'm not sure anyone reads anything I type.

Do you know what indigenous self-governance entails?

Pretty much, this: "I no longer need your handouts, so fuck you and your iron fist."

I've said a few times, Tsawwassen rescinded tax exemptions and extra entitlements with the adoption of self-governance.

Other Bands want what Tsawwassen spent millions to achieve, because when they achieve it they'll be treated as legal equals, and that their children will be educated on the same terms as any other Canadian.

and indigenous people don't need parliamentary support?

I do not understand how the Indian Act will be retracted without it;

I also do not understand how the environmental provisions written into bill C-45 will be retracted without it;

Indigenous people want fucking equality, and achieving it in law is a serious step to that ends.

Parliament makes laws, no one else, so how are indigenous people supposed to make change without its support?

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Old 01-17-2013, 03:44 PM   #212
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I think both sides of this particular video come off a little ignorant at times but hearing "This is our land" at two separate times demonstrates a mentality from some taking an active and public role in this movement that anyone who isn't an aboriginal is a second class citizen.

RAW VIDEO: an Edmonton man confronts Idle No More protestors : Latest : Video
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Old 01-17-2013, 09:15 PM   #213
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Listened to Jon McComb's commentary this afternoon, apparently one of the actual founders of Idle No More has stated that not only do they have no official connection with all these protests going on, but even Chief Spence's hunger strike is not connected to them. In other words, pretty much ALL of this going on now is not organized or sanctioned by the "real" INM group.
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Old 01-17-2013, 10:43 PM   #214
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Listened to Jon McComb's commentary this afternoon, apparently one of the actual founders of Idle No More has stated that not only do they have no official connection with all these protests going on, but even Chief Spence's hunger strike is not connected to them. In other words, pretty much ALL of this going on now is not organized or sanctioned by the "real" INM group.
Which I think is something that Mindbomber has mentioned--several times. The fact that people who claim to be acting on behalf of or speaking on behalf of INM are not actually sponsored by the core movement itself.

Much like Occupy and many other decentralized 'for-the-people' organizations, the sub-groups and para-groups it spawns are taking much of the attention. And this causes several problems; people get distracted, people get deterred, people get sidetracked, and people point to the extremists and use them to discredit the main movement. And if you'll notice, Mindbomber has been careful to try and point out the core INM values and that the sound-bite statements that've been coming out of the media and videos like that "raw confrontation" are not at all the same things.
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Old 01-18-2013, 08:18 AM   #215
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If the Crown orders harsh police action and an insurgency starts in this wave of global revolution for all out sovereignty, I dont think they can round up all first nations into camps to stop it. Only by blackmailing and paying large sums of money to traitors can they stop/slow extreme elements if they are to exist.

PressTV discussion on idle no more.
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Old 01-18-2013, 10:19 AM   #216
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PressTV discussion on idle no more.

That was the most fair and balanced news piece I have ever watched. Thank you!
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Old 01-18-2013, 11:26 AM   #217
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Because Iran has the fairest, most balanced news in the world.

That's why we're sure Jews stole Ahmadinejad's clouds with their Jew science.
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Old 01-18-2013, 06:36 PM   #218
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You guys can't see it, but I can because I'm a mod. Charles in Charge delivered the "Zionist Conspiracy" bullshit nicely.

Anyhow, the context is that CiC feels that the Canadian media is slanting their position on First Nations news and cited a CBC story on Syria as an example of further propagandist reporting by the mainstream media.

Graeme was right to keep it on topic.

At CharlesInCharge's instance, and as the one who created the thread, I back Graeme's decision (not that he needs backing on any decision he makes)
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Old 01-18-2013, 06:50 PM   #219
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If you're intelligent.... blah blah blah

My full post was edited by a mod, I provided a crucial CBC propaganda piece from a few days ago by it was deemed off topic.
When have you ever posted anything that was on-topic?

Obviously nobody here is "intelligent" because we don't share the same bizarre ideas as you. Guess I need to ratchet down my tinfoil hat about a dozen notches tighter and cut off the blood flow to my brain so I can make sense of what you're saying.
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Old 01-18-2013, 06:50 PM   #220
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If you're intelligent, you'd see that these posted questions from a Canadian news clip, condition the watcher that the first nations brought their plight on themselves.
http://i.imgur.com/EKqBnpd.jpg
its Sun news... i dont think anyone but Belka takes them seriously... that's like quoting a survey by FOX news
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Old 01-18-2013, 06:51 PM   #221
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its Sun news... i dont think anyone but Belka takes them seriously... that's like quoting a survey by FOX news
This just in from Sun news: xilley gets laid. Film at 11.
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Old 01-18-2013, 07:40 PM   #222
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With the amount of pruning I do these days, I feel like I should be a mod for the Home & Garden section.
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Old 01-19-2013, 08:16 PM   #223
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Notice how the hysteria over all this is dead now that hockey's back? Called it.
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Old 01-19-2013, 08:22 PM   #225
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Does anyone know how many to a signature?
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Originally Posted by Brianrietta View Post
Not a sebberry post goes by where I don't frown and think to myself "so..?"

Last edited by Soundy; 01-21-2013 at 07:15 PM.
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