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Old 01-14-2013, 10:31 AM   #176
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It is pretty disappointing and sickening to read these comments (on and off rs) as for some reason, it seems to be more acceptable to be racists towards Canada's FN.

In my previous career, I was always blown away by the remarks people would make...and I am not talking about people I didn't know. Friends, family, acquaintances, etc. would think it was OK to do so and I would spend a lot of time explain the who, what, where, and why things were the way they were. I hope I changed minds and educated them and over time their perspectives totally changed.

It is shocking what happens when people educated themselves on a topic such as this.
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Old 01-14-2013, 01:12 PM   #177
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Thank you Graeme S and MindBomber.

Holy shit I was just asking a question, and nowhere in my question did I cast blame or played a one-sided game? Where did you get the idea that I was giving any mentality of "if he disagrees with me has to be one of them"?

I just assumed you were FN because it appeared the thread was an open forum for asking FN questions.

Thanks for the response regardless, but you're an asshole not based on FN issues.
I owe you an apology. I was a dick, and it's totally my bad. It's just been a bit frustrating for me trying to guide this thread towards civilized discussion. Your post reminded me very much of a-CharlesinCharge-style "so are you gonna ignore me or does this mean I won? because I know I'm right" single-shot statement.

Your assumption was not unreasonable especially considering the general tone and timbre of this thread, so I duly apologize.


Oh, and as a sidenote, I am an asshole--just ask the people I've banned
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Old 01-14-2013, 01:21 PM   #178
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It seems to be more acceptable to be racists towards Canada's FN.

Canada is multicultural.

First Nation people do not believe in multiculturalism. They are monocultural.

I've watched a ton of YouTube videos with natives saying "We will never assimilate and lose our culture." I just want to know, what part of their culture believes in cellular phones and the internet?

The whole thing is so fucking retarded. The average 1st nation native is a peasant pawn used by the Chiefs to get money to pad their lifestyles while keeping the average native dumb and unemployable so they can continue the cycle of poverty. This keeps the Chiefs relevant.

Chiefs are like the Feudal lords of medieval England, and the average native is a serf. The crops they sow are poverty, and the King(Canadian Government)is constantly throwing money at the Lords to put out the fires. The Lords can rally the serfs to protest their conditions, where the Lords will then benefit from greater payments that will never trickle-down to the serfs and only continue this cycle.
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Old 01-14-2013, 01:42 PM   #179
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I am frightened by how misguided you are.

I would caution you to not gather your information from the same place you can find 'a ton of videos' of people doing the cinnamon challenge, cat tricks, and shitty cover songs.
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Old 01-14-2013, 01:46 PM   #180
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Wow, just wow.

I don't think there's any disagreement about the fact that the system needs improving. But guess what? The special status that First Nations people have is guaranteed by the Constitution. How many times has the Constitution been changed or amended in Canadian history?

I rest my case.
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Old 01-14-2013, 01:48 PM   #181
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Wow, just wow.

I don't think there's any disagreement about the fact that the system needs improving. But guess what? The special status that First Nations people have is guaranteed by the Constitution. How many times has the Constitution been changed or amended in Canadian history?

I rest my case.
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Cool, I live in a racist country.


This is Canadian apartheid, basically.
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Old 01-14-2013, 01:59 PM   #182
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Canada is multicultural.

First Nation people do not believe in multiculturalism. They are monocultural.

I've watched a ton of YouTube videos with natives saying "We will never assimilate and lose our culture." I just want to know, what part of their culture believes in cellular phones and the internet?

The whole thing is so fucking retarded. The average 1st nation native is a peasant pawn used by the Chiefs to get money to pad their lifestyles while keeping the average native dumb and unemployable so they can continue the cycle of poverty. This keeps the Chiefs relevant.

Chiefs are like the Feudal lords of medieval England, and the average native is a serf. The crops they sow are poverty, and the King(Canadian Government)is constantly throwing money at the Lords to put out the fires. The Lords can rally the serfs to protest their conditions, where the Lords will then benefit from greater payments that will never trickle-down to the serfs and only continue this cycle.
Go back to talking about how much ass you get on a daily basis man. Stick to what you are good at.

When you make a post that hints at having anything more than a passing knowledge based on assumptions that you've picked up from youtube and the like, then maybe you can add something to the conversation.

1. How the fuck is a cell phone, or possession of one representative of someone's culture?

Do you realize how offensive it is for someone to sit there and declare what the rules are for someone to identify their culture?

2. Your whole interest in the Chiefs and their finances.

Maybe no one is asking you. Is there corruption? Absolutely. Is there corruption in all government? Fuck yes.

I think, and this is MY opinion...this whole thing comes down to First Nations being tired of being "the Indian problem". They have been thrown on reserves, thrown a little cash, build you some shit houses, educated to be whiter....whatever, its all dealing with the indian problem.

Then, people complain because "the indians" are drinking too much, or aren't respecting the houses we built for them and so on-and call for it to stop.

THEN...they do try to organize and get faltered there too. No one has "the" answer, and can make it work right out of the box.

It's like they are being told, "great, you want self-government...you have it, BUT, from day one, each and every dollar needs to be perfectly allocated, you need to clean up that addiction problem right away, not have an ounce of corruption, clean up your streets and all your children need to be educated and college bound."

And you have NO time to accomplish it, because the rest of the country is waiting for you to fuck it up, and we'll have to go back in and throw more money at it to fix it.

The problems that this community faces are large. The solutions will take a generation to take hold. That's the nature of it.

Step one is the conversation.
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Old 01-14-2013, 02:09 PM   #183
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Cool, I live in a racist country.


This is Canadian apartheid, basically.
You're entitled to your interpretation.

If you're so passionate about it, you should form a politcal party and have the amendment of the Constitution as one of your priorities.

Or maybe, just maybe, you should come to the conclusion of many lawyers and politicians (who have much more experience dealing with First Nations, and have higher status than you could ever dream of) who have asked the same questions and had the same thoughts as you many times over.
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Old 01-14-2013, 05:03 PM   #184
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I owe you an apology. I was a dick, and it's totally my bad. It's just been a bit frustrating for me trying to guide this thread towards civilized discussion. Your post reminded me very much of a-CharlesinCharge-style "so are you gonna ignore me or does this mean I won? because I know I'm right" single-shot statement.

Your assumption was not unreasonable especially considering the general tone and timbre of this thread, so I duly apologize.


Oh, and as a sidenote, I am an asshole--just ask the people I've banned
Apologies all around. Want to add I knew you were a mod before my post.
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Old 01-14-2013, 09:39 PM   #185
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I am frightened by how misguided you are.

I would caution you to not gather your information from the same place you can find 'a ton of videos' of people doing the cinnamon challenge, cat tricks, and shitty cover songs.
Hey come on now, that's really not fair.....Some of those covers are awesome
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Old 01-15-2013, 04:32 PM   #186
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The Indigenous people of Australia are developing an 'Idle No More' movement too

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I am frightened by how misguided you are.

I would caution you to not gather your information from the same place you can find 'a ton of videos' of people doing the cinnamon challenge, cat tricks, and shitty cover songs.
Misguided perceptions are a more powerful motivator than an education for some people, Jason and Tonybaru being the most current resident examples.

I am seeing steady progress overall though, thankfully..

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Old 01-15-2013, 05:36 PM   #187
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They're planning to blockade the Pat Bay highway here tomorrow morning.

Glad it's in a spot that won't affect my drive to work.
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Old 01-15-2013, 05:43 PM   #188
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I've heard rumors of similar events being planned at SFU, UBC and other institutions, but nothing confirmed.

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Idle No More - Where Do We Go From Here?

Teach-in & Public Forum. 7-9pm.
University of Victoria. First People's House Ceremonial Hall.

Featuring:
Dr. Taiaiake Alfred (Professor, Indigenous Governance, UVic)
Janet Rogers (Victoria Poet Laureate, INM Victoria Organizer)
Mandee McDonald (MA Student, Indigenous Governance, UVic, INM Victoria/Denendeh Organizer)

and special guest: Wab Kinew (Media Personality, Director of Indigenous Inclusion, University of Winnipeg).

INFO: What is the Idle No More movement and where do we go from here? Bringing together local community organizers, university students and professors, and special guests, this will be an opportunity to learn, share and discuss the growing, global Indigenous Peoples' movement and how it affects and involves all Canadians. All nations and peoples welcome.

Tea, coffee and refreshments will be served.

**This event will be LIVESTREAMED. Please use #J16Forum hashtag for Twitter & social media discussion during the event. Live back channel conversation will be moderated - and online audience will be able to interact and ask questions to the panel.**

Co-presented by the University of Victoria Faculty of Human & Social Development and Indigenous Governance.
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Old 01-15-2013, 06:36 PM   #189
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Misguided perceptions are a more powerful motivator than an education for some people, Jason and Tonybaru being the most current resident examples.

I am seeing steady progress overall though, thankfully..

Why do indigenous people have different rights than anyone else?


Unless, of course, you're an indigenous supremacist...
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Old 01-15-2013, 08:08 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by Jason00S2000 View Post
Why do indigenous people have different rights than anyone else?


Unless, of course, you're an indigenous supremacist...



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You can see that what motivates us is neither self-conceit or self-interest, but only a burning desire to join the battle in this grave eleventh hour for our native homeland ... One last thing I can tell you. Either the First Nations revolution begins tonight or we will all be dead by dawn!


Hearing about more blockades make me worry that movement is taking on fanatical elements. Its possibly building steam in a direction that will put them in direct conflict with the military soon enough. Knowing Canada's policy of appeasement, this will be extremely effective as they likely want to avoid another Oka standoff and will be given whatever they want.
I'm sure MindBomber isn't a supremacist but I do think he is idealizing the intentions of this movement. As I've stated before, some of the leaders in this movement, however "fringe" they may be, are still leaders within their respective communities and hold influence among their people. When they speak their people may listen, and that could result in the aforementioned domestic terrorism that some chiefs have promised.
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Old 01-15-2013, 08:59 PM   #191
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Hearing about more blockades make me worry that movement is taking on fanatical elements. Its possibly building steam in a direction that will put them in direct conflict with the military soon enough. Knowing Canada's policy of appeasement, this will be extremely effective as they likely want to avoid another Oka standoff and will be given whatever they want.

I'm sure MindBomber isn't a supremacist but I do think he is idealizing the intentions of this movement. As I've stated before, some of the leaders in this movement, however "fringe" they may be, are still leaders within their respective communities and hold influence among their people. When they speak their people may listen, and that could result in the aforementioned domestic terrorism that some chiefs have promised.
Hi El Bastardo,

I understand the concerns you hold, but maintain the position that the aforementioned leaders garner little respect among indigenous communities or the larger movement. I would consider the distinction between atypical indigenous leaders, those who follow them, and typical indigenous leaders, along with those who follow them, analogous to radical 'Islam' and Islam. Radical 'Islam' does not reflect the value of Islam, but the attention it attracts often leads to those who rely on media sources for information developing misconceptions. Radical elements within the indigenous community similarly do not reflect the values of the whole, but a reliance on media sources will convey a very different image. Official 'Idle No More' channels have repeatedly advocated against violence, and restated the necessity to educate and not to create enemies. Furthermore, during the J11action day, among over a hundred protests only one blockade was planned. In prior threads, we discussed Terry Nelson, and established that although he has a small contingent of supporters, they're severely misguided; that has not changed, and the example of Nelson can be used as a proxy for all such leaders.

I'd like to consider myself fairly objective, even under conditions such as these. If 'Idle No More' were not a peaceful initiative, seeking to educate and inform to gain support and apply political pressure through the proper means, I would distance myself from it as quickly as I do from Nelson.
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Old 01-15-2013, 09:30 PM   #192
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I'm more interested in the fact, more so than idle no more, or occupy before it, but at the sheer amount of "movements" in general.

Quebec student uprising.
Occupy
Idle
just...europe. All of it.
hell, I'll put tea party in the list

So much social strife. Obviously, its not hard to find the underlying points...the economy is in the tank, its not getting better, and until there is some type of real change, its not going to get better. People need to feel that the economy is good for the economy to be good. They need for the gov't to do something to make them feel that. Honestly, its too bad that war gets so ugly now so quickly, as that usually did the trick in the past.

(the last part was facetious...well, mostly...it DID work)
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Old 01-15-2013, 10:57 PM   #193
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Why do indigenous people have different rights than anyone else?
Because they were here first, of course.

Which got me to thinking... in the long history of indigenous peoples and their "conquistadors", the North American First Nations have had it pretty easy. Okay, so getting shoved into reserves and being kept down under the White Man's thumb isn't an ideal situation, but consider how many aboriginal populations in history have been enslaved by the newcomers, if not utterly wiped out.

If our First Nations think they have it bad, they should look at what the whites did in South Africa (for example). Or at some of the actions of expansionist empires like the Mongolians and the ancient Romans.

Jump in a time machine, go back to Peru in the mid-1500s, and ask your average Incan-in-the-street what they think of the Spaniards - bet they'd give their eye teeth to simply be herded into a reserve:

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After the fall of the Inca Empire many aspects of Inca culture were systematically destroyed, including their sophisticated farming system, known as the vertical archipelago model of agriculture. Spanish colonial officials used the Inca mita corvée labor system for colonial aims, sometimes brutally. One member of each family was forced to work in the gold and silver mines, the foremost of which was the titanic silver mine at Potosí. When a family member died, which would usually happen within a year or two, the family would be required to send a replacement.
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Old 01-16-2013, 08:31 AM   #194
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Idle? Know More! A public panel on indigenous issues.

https://www.facebook.com/events/151302958355184/
-------------------------------------------
Tuesday Jan 22 at 5:30 pm
Alice MacKay Room
Vancouver Public Library (Georgia and Hamilton)
Unceded Coast Salish Territories
------------------------------------------

This panel is open to the public. All are welcome to attend, especially non-Natives to understand the long history of racism and colonialism in Canada against Indigenous people that has given rise to the current Idle No More movement, to highlight and lift the voices of Indigenous peoples resisting across these lands, and to think through how to be more informed and responsible allies.

Please spread the word - encourage your friends, your family, your co-workers, your faith group, your community/student group to attend.

Accessibility info: Vancouver Public Library - Branch Details


* Territorial opening by Cease Wyss: T’Uy’Tanat-Cease Wyss is Skwxw’u7mesh ethnobotanist, media artist, educator, and food security activist. She has stood up with other Indigenous Peoples to fight for native peoples’ rights to hunt, gather, and fish in their traditional territories.

* Jerilynn Webster: Jerrilyn is a Vancouver based female hip hop artist, beat-boxer, performing artist, aboriginal youth educator, single mother, award-winning actor, and member of the Nuxalk and Cayauga Nations who is "using [her] words to go upwards/not backwards." She is an Idle No More organizer.

* Glen Coulthard: Dr. Glen Coulthard is a member of the Yellowknives Dene and a scholar of contemporary Indigenous politics. He is an Assistant Professor in First Nations Studies and the Department of Political Science at UBC. He is a founding member of the Camas Books & Infoshop in Victoria and the Dechinta Center for Research and Learning in Yellowknives Dene territory.

* Khelsilem Rivers: Khelsilem is a community organizer and language revitalization activist. Influenced heavily by his grandmother, he always believed in the importance of being Indigenous, despite encroachment of a foreign culture, society, and civilization. In this regard, Khelsilem has pursued avenues where he can strengthen all aspects of Sḵwx̱wú7mesh and Kwakwa̱ka̱’wakw ways. He is an Idle No More organizer.

* Darla Goodwin: Singing Thunderbird Child-Twice Standing Woman is a Cree Ojibwa from Peepeekisis First Nation in Saskatchewan. She is a knowledge keeper, carrier of the Sacred Correction Pipe for the Desecration of the female side of life, starting with our mother the Earth. She is a ceremonial First Nations woman and an organizer for Idle No More.

* Lisa Yellow-Quill: Lisa Yellow-Quill is Nehiyaw, Nekaway, Dakota from Treaty 1: Long Plains, Manitoba. She has many years of experience providing advocacy, support and counseling to women and families living with multiple-barriers, oppressions, and experiences of violence both in crisis situations and in complex long-term processes. This foundation has supported her ability to be a noted spokesperson on behalf of Turtle Island’s Murdered and Missing Girls and Women. Lisa is a Pipe Carrier, Sundancer, and Keeper of several Ceremonies.


MORE SPEAKERS WILL BE ADDED SHORTLY
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Old 01-16-2013, 09:10 AM   #195
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"unceded coast Salish territory"

I'm usually a pro-activist guy, but I do not support this movement. I believe we should all respect aboriginal heritage and culture, not rights. The 'they were here first' argument just does not resonate with me at all. Equal rights and equal treatment for all Canadians is what I support. I find it annoying that people are automatically labelled a racist if they want to speak up against this. I'm not saying that is the case on RS, but just a general feeling I get when I read responses to anti-idlenomore comments on FB, news sites, etc.
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Old 01-16-2013, 09:22 AM   #196
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"unceded coast Salish territory"
I read something once that said if all the different native bands in BC actually claimed all of their "traditional territories", it would come to something like 140% of the total area of the province.
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Old 01-16-2013, 09:51 AM   #197
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"unceded coast Salish territory"

I'm usually a pro-activist guy, but I do not support this movement. I believe we should all respect aboriginal heritage and culture, not rights. The 'they were here first' argument just does not resonate with me at all. Equal rights and equal treatment for all Canadians is what I support. I find it annoying that people are automatically labelled a racist if they want to speak up against this.
Hi Redlines,

The line, "unceded Coast Salish territory," tends to be inflammatory if the context is not understood. I considered editing out that portion of the announcement, but felt it would be inappropriate to selectively remove a line. The line only intends to recognize the lack of a treaty agreement, and does not intend to paint the current residents of the land as unjust occupiers or something similar. The Government and Bands have come to very reasonable, mutually fair agreements in a number of regions across Canada, and attention is being drawn to the unwillingness to negotiate one in regards to the traditional territory where the seminar will take place.

Fundamentally, "Idle No More," is a movement seeking to establish equal legal standing and treatment for indigenous people. Of the six objectives of 'Idle No More:' three are dedicated to establishing equal rights and treatment for indigenous people; one is primarily dedicated to establishing equal rights and treatment for indigenous people, but also to environmental protection for the benefit of all current and future Canadians; one is dedicated to establishing a greater knowledge and respect for indigenous people by adapting school system curriculum (like Manitoba has done); and only one is dedicated to progress on treaties where none exist, re-negotiation of treaties through legal consideration, and recognition of treaties that have gone ignored. The final objective I noted aside, 'Idle No More,' is very much aligned with what you support.

It would be unfair to label a person merely voicing a reasonable opinion a racist, such as the one you've given above. Please, accept my apologies on behalf of the larger movement if you've experienced such treatment; it is contrary to the fundamental purpose of 'Idle No More.'

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I read something once that said if all the different native bands in BC actually claimed all of their "traditional territories", it would come to something like 140% of the total area of the province.
Keep in mind, traditional territorial lines are not located on clearly defined boundaries. In an era before latitudes, longitudes, geographical surveys, and the like, a bit of overlap was not unusual. Treaty agreements take this into account.

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Old 01-16-2013, 10:06 AM   #198
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Keep in mind, traditional territorial lines are not located on clearly defined boundaries. In an era before latitudes, longitudes, geographical surveys, and the like, a bit of overlap was not unusual. Treaty agreements take this into account.
I understand that... the problem is, in THIS era, where the overlap can be mapped and defined, if bands start saying, "This is our land and we want to control it", pretty soon they're going to start bumping into each other. Given how militant some of them have become, I can't see that ending well - either people will get killed, or lawyers will get very rich.
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Old 01-16-2013, 10:15 AM   #199
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BTW, that National Post article I linked a couple pages back, has a line claiming it costs around $250,000 to build a house on a reserve, and calculated that for "X" money put in by the government, they could build "only" Y number of houses...

To which I say, bullshit. Even considering the cost of bringing in materials, it shouldn't cost anywhere near a quarter-mil to build a *sufficient* house. A decent-sized house, suitable to the environment, with plenty of room, should be do-able for under $100k - you can get two and a half times as many houses for that.

Want to save even more money? Instead of bringing in a bunch of construction crews, bring in one crew, a couple extra leads, and a trainer or two, and teach the people there how to build their own houses. Not only do you save a buttload on the initial labor, you save even more in the long haul as the outside crews are no longer needed... AND you equip at least a couple dozen of your people with a solid, sale-able, REAL-WORLD TRADE.

It was said about Occupy, and it applies just as much here: if these protesters took all the time and energy they spend protesting, and put into getting their hands dirty to actually DO something, they'd be a lot further ahead, short-term AND long-term, and a lot more useful would actually get done.
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Old 01-16-2013, 11:04 AM   #200
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I understand that... the problem is, in THIS era, where the overlap can be mapped and defined, if bands start saying, "This is our land and we want to control it", pretty soon they're going to start bumping into each other. Given how militant some of them have become, I can't see that ending well - either people will get killed, or lawyers will get very rich.
Hi Soundy,

You've raised a very reasonable point; at the risk of sounding dismissive though, I would not consider it an especially serious concern. In rural areas, Bands would like to achieve 1-1.5% control over traditional territories; In urban areas, much less than that. The small proportions allow land grants to be kept from interfering with one another quite easily. I suppose, where significant concentrated resource deposits come into play difficulties might be encountered... but still, I'm not too concerned.

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BTW, that National Post article I linked a couple pages back, has a line claiming it costs around $250,000 to build a house on a reserve, and calculated that for "X" money put in by the government, they could build "only" Y number of houses...

To which I say, bullshit. Even considering the cost of bringing in materials, it shouldn't cost anywhere near a quarter-mil to build a *sufficient* house. A decent-sized house, suitable to the environment, with plenty of room, should be do-able for under $100k - you can get two and a half times as many houses for that.

Want to save even more money? Instead of bringing in a bunch of construction crews, bring in one crew, a couple extra leads, and a trainer or two, and teach the people there how to build their own houses. Not only do you save a buttload on the initial labor, you save even more in the long haul as the outside crews are no longer needed... AND you equip at least a couple dozen of your people with a solid, sale-able, REAL-WORLD TRADE.

It was said about Occupy, and it applies just as much here: if these protesters took all the time and energy they spend protesting, and put into getting their hands dirty to actually DO something, they'd be a lot further ahead, short-term AND long-term, and a lot more useful would actually get done.
In Greater Vancouver: building an unadorned home costs roughly $125/ft, and given large scale contracts $100/ft should be possible; that would place costs at $250,000-$200,000 for a 2000/ft family home with paid labour. In more remote areas, costs rise significantly because of the costs of transport; I've heard quotes citing transport at 50% of the cost of construction. I'm not disputing your points, but they're not entirely in line with my experience in construction.

I do strongly support your second point, there's absolutely no reason to not build homes habit-for-humanity style. I believe indigenous communities would be supportive of this system, but the dollars for materials must flow through Indian Affairs, and its so inefficient it makes other areas of Government look productive, so I don't know if they'd allow it.

Just a note: I believe, a replacement for the Indian Act would remove provisions for on reserve housing, because they originate from the line titling indigenous people as wards.

On your final point, I unfortunately must disagree. The objectives of the 'Idle No More' movement are not achievable through conventional labouring, because they primarily involve parliamentary issues that require initiative at the upper levels of Government.

Last edited by MindBomber; 01-16-2013 at 11:10 AM.
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