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Vancouver Off-Topic / Current EventsThe off-topic forum for Vancouver, funnies, non-auto centered discussions, WORK SAFE. While the rules are more relaxed here, there are still rules. Please refer to sticky thread in this forum.
And you're a fucking pussy. Don't tell people to bend over and take it up the ass when you have zero vested interest in the topic. Well I guess I'm not too surprised since your family has a history of taking it up the ass without complaint.
(probably gonna get modded, but worth it)
Does Beijing want to create another Tibet/Xinjiang? Because this is how you do it.
Interesting, I thought that Deng Xiao Ping was widely regarded for economic reforms that led to China's growth. Primarily the change from state owned land and businesses to citizen owned ones.
Do you have further readings on how joining the WTO enabled China to do business with other countries and become a manufacturing power house?
You can google China WTO Obligation and there should be quite a few notes, and even academic papers like this one that digs deeper into it.
But the basic is that WTO allowed China to access the world market in a way not possible before by taking many advantages of WTO agreements. That lower barrier of entry of goods to other countries allowed China to really explode as they are now able to ship almost anything they make anywhere in the most cost-effective way possible.
In return, China was supposed to reform its economy to open itself up to all foreign competitors since WTO idea is to allow each and every member country to do what they are most efficient in.
Nonetheless, China did not do that. They wanted all for themselves and basically weaponized its market and use it for its benefits (as we can see first hand with what China is doing to Canadian agriculture sector).
Not just on the physical ground, but also the digital... they have the great firewall, which locked out all major internet giants (FB, Google... etc) and built their own version (WeChat/Tencent, Baidu... etc). If such barrier didn't exist, WeChat is no competition to Whatsapp/Line/Instagram. But since they are fully protected, they were able to become the giant they are today.
Hence I'm in full support of the trade war with China even though I don't like Trump. It's time for China to live up to its words and do what they were supposed to do. They can't have the cake and eat it too. If you look at many of the demands that US is asking in the trade negotiation, many of them were just part of the WTO deal... just with an enforcing mechanism attached (which China strongly disagree... because most likely, they are going to cheat like a mice... but with an enforcing mechanism/pre-agreed punishments, they wouldn't be able to cheat it).
I have to admit I have been pretty ignorant of the relationship between Hong Kong and China. When I would read/hear the term Mainlander used in a derogatory way when compared to someone from HK, I assumed it was like someone from from Vancouver calling someone from the Interior a hick/redneck - class vs low class, educated vs uneducated, etc. It is obviously much more complex than that, I just never gave it much thought until now.
Since British Colonialism played a part in where the HK/China relationship is today, I'm curious to know how that colonial past is regarded today? How was it viewed while under British control? Would HKers have preferred the lease be extended? In the long run did it end up helping democracy and change get a toe hold in China or did it exacerbate relations?
I have to admit I have been pretty ignorant of the relationship between Hong Kong and China. When I would read/hear the term Mainlander used in a derogatory way when compared to someone from HK, I assumed it was like someone from from Vancouver calling someone from the Interior a hick/redneck - class vs low class, educated vs uneducated, etc. It is obviously much more complex than that, I just never gave it much thought until now.
Since British Colonialism played a part in where the HK/China relationship is today, I'm curious to know how that colonial past is regarded today? How was it viewed while under British control? Would HKers have preferred the lease be extended? In the long run did it end up helping democracy and change get a toe hold in China or did it exacerbate relations?
I think the four options, notwithstanding how viable they are, are generally supported in this order:
1) Become an Republic city-state, like Singapore. Work with China in some ways that are beneficial to both countries (they'd need to, there's not enough resources for Hong Kong to survive without relying on China in some way)
2) Join the Republic of China. Similar to above, ROC would work with PRC. Obviously not possible, since PRC doesn't recognize the ROC as a state at all.
3) Become a state of UK again. Not the most desirable option, and while many great countries of today have horrible colonial pasts, many see it as being better than what we have now. Some romanticize it, and I think some kind of use it to stick it in pro-Beijingers' faces. See how much we hate you? We'd rather be a colony again!
Exactly why you guys have no popular support in mainland China. Exactly why these protests arent going to work. HK and its people always use mainlanders as some sort of a boogie man. You guys created this rift when you should have started healing it since 97. Instead, this constant emphasis of us vs them has sparked more hatred and divisions. This doesnt help your cause at all. Independence is impossible, China wont let you. You dont have enough military power or international support to force a two system in perpetuity like Taiwan. Ultimately you are fighting to keep this bullshit farce for another 30 years but then what? Is it worth the people dying on the street and civil havoc?
Badhobz,
I don't want to speculate on why you have the impression that Hong Kong people did not like China prior to the 97 change over. But that is incorrect. You are a smart and sensible guy, so please familiarize yourself more with the history and sentiments of the past Hong Kong people -- esp if you look at it during the late 70's all the way up to ~2003.
There is no mistakening that during that era, Hong Kong people habitually poke fun at how backwards and unsophisticated Mainlander are. For the most part, I would just say that this is an unfortunate trait among Hong Kong people back then. But as soon as you look at the actual actions or things that they do, Hong Kong back then overwhelming love and support China. When my older cousins were little, my grandma regularly mails and personally delivers a shxt ton of supplies back to our "family village". In our cases, this typical included food and clothing, although on occasion, small electric appliances (up to CRT TVs with maybe 17 - 19" screen sizes) would also be brought back (to the family village) in person. My grandma, uncles, and older cousin would all wear multiple layers of clothing in addition to the luggage on the way up, and only come back home (to Hong Kong) with empty red-white-blue luggage bags and nothing more than a top, pants, and usually shoes. This was a common scene at least up to the mid 80's.
When Deng brought in economic reforms, the manufacturing sector in Hong Kong embraced it, and mass moved their factories back to China. Along with the factories, they also brought their capital and business expertise to China. Granted, they were not solely doing this out of the goodness of their hearts, but the undeniable fact was, Hong Kong capital made up for the largest portion of "external" investment for a very long time in China's history.
The 89 Tiananmen Massacre certainly scared a lot of people, but in the lead up to the 97 hand over, most people in Hong Kong were in favour of "returning to China". They certainly wanted assurrances and escape routes. But they still generally think favourably of China. They had generally favourable impressions of Chinese leaders. They liked Emperor Jiang and VP Zhu better than they like the HK CEO Tung Chi-wah. The vast majority of people considered themselves to be both Chinese as well as Hong Kongers. And that positive impression of China has generally continued up to about 2003.
The SARS outbreak, financial crisis, and subsequent mass protest in 2002 - 2003 spooked China. Shortly after that, China changed its policy towards Hong Kong, and tries to impose its iron grip on an increasing number of aspects. Prior to that, China only gave minimal intervention in Hong Kong's affaris.
The irony was, the more China tried to tighten its grip on Hong Kong, the more Hong Kong resisted, and the more opinions shifted to start disliking China. The current generation of youngers generally do not consider themselves to be Chinese because it has a negative connotation to it, and instead consider themselves to be Hong Kongers.
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Cantonese is Cantonese. You do speak the same damn language. If you cannot even concede that, then its just more HK elitism
Cantonese and Mandarin have a relationship that is more similar to how English, French, Spanish, and German are, than how UK English, US English, and Australian English are. UK English, US English, and Australian English are all different variants of English. But English, French, Spanish, and German are similar only in the sense that they are all Latin-based languages. Cantonese and Mardarin may share the same character set (assuming you look past the traditional vs simplified characters), but an exclusive Cantonese speaker would not be able to understand an exclusive Mandarin speaker and vice versa.
Video: This lady is a hero. She was bravely facing a group of police, pursuing them to stop beating the youth. Meanwhile the police threw tear gas to the protesters and a shot was opened. This lady finally was hit by pepper spray by another police directly to her eyes.
According to my relatives in HK, there are two (now three) groups.
1. Peaceful protestors
2. Violent protestors who live on chaotic evil - they come out at night
3. Pissed off Moms
From what I've heard, the police have been attacking Group 1 (and Group 2). Granted, Group 1 and Group 2 are pretty hard to differentiate in the heat of things. And there's varying opinions, ie. Group 2 deserves to be attacked by cops. But now, there's Group 3 coming out, because you have "kids walking around - peacefully (group 2)" who are being attack by police. See video.
This is all kind of fucked up. And in regards to the previous posts about the police, I do believe that most of the police acting in this way are from China. My family has a long history in HKPD, and they're strongly saying that HKPD wouldn't normally act this way. Idk if this is true or not, but HKPD typically has the least corruption/fucked up police force, as compared to even Western countries.
Don't forget a small but important group that have received a good beating from the HK Police -- the press. Much like the pissed off moms, I think the press have turned into a major PITA and PR disaster for the HKPD.
(Disclaimer -- I am totally on the protester's side.)
As far as the HKPD's brutality is concerned, I am not surprised by how a mere change of leadership can result in that. It also doesn't help when you have "team leaders" like this for the special ops units:
Apply Daily News apparently found out that Group 1/2 is funded by the US (LOL), some kind of civic unrest fund. Which their site was conveniently hacked shortly finding this out. More specifically, the 1 million protestors were supposedly given a free lunch and $1000.00 HKD. Violent protestors were given helmets, masks, weapons, lunch and $1000 HKD.
Also note on the police, on the night of the civil unrest (Group 2 violent protestors), all HKPD were given an order to be on stand-by/go out there and disperse the area. This was according to my dad's co-worker's brother who is HKPD. If you're a cop, you're a cop - you follow orders.
Edit: I would look into Apple Daily News myself, but I can't read LMAO
The current generation of youngers generally do not consider themselves to be Chinese because it has a negative connotation to it, and instead consider themselves to be Hong Kongers.
That's what im worried about man. This rift that's started. Im worried these are the people that'll take it too far and ultimately cause another tianmen square situation in hong kong. As 68styles puts it, some of these guys are willing to fight and die to hold on to their cause. My wife's family is all based in HK and im quite worried that they will be severely impacted by all of this if it continues to go south.
p.s. Traum, thank you for your perspectives on pre 97. From most of the interactions ive had with HKers, this hasnt been the case as they either all fled before 1997 (all the while yelling at the mainlanders and creating this image that as soon as 97 hit, HK would have been destroyed) or these more militant HKers who refuses to even identify as Chinese.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Traum
Cantonese and Mandarin have a relationship that is more similar to how English, French, Spanish, and German are, than how UK English, US English, and Australian English are. UK English, US English, and Australian English are all different variants of English. But English, French, Spanish, and German are similar only in the sense that they are all Latin-based languages. Cantonese and Mardarin may share the same character set (assuming you look past the traditional vs simplified characters), but an exclusive Cantonese speaker would not be able to understand an exclusive Mandarin speaker and vice versa.
No, im just saying the rest of Guangdong province also speaks Cantonese (or a close form of it) and that linguistically it's still Chinese. Although the government/courts/and other institutions are conducted in English, the primary form of communication is Cantonese which is a dialect of Chinese like many other dialects. To say that its a different language is unreasonable.
Apply Daily News apparently found out that Group 1/2 is funded by the US (LOL), some kind of civic unrest fund. Which their site was conveniently hacked shortly finding this out. More specifically, the 1 million protestors were supposedly given a free lunch and $1000.00 HKD. Violent protestors were given helmets, masks, weapons, lunch and $1000 HKD.
Also note on the police, on the night of the civil unrest (Group 2 violent protestors), all HKPD were given an order to be on stand-by/go out there and disperse the area. This was according to my dad's co-worker's brother who is HKPD. If you're a cop, you're a cop - you follow orders.
Edit: I would look into Apple Daily News myself, but I can't read LMAO
bro this reak of CCP propaganda bullshit.
It looks like apple daily news hasnt been doing to well financially. I wouldnt be surprised if the CCP started to influence their reporting by giving them money.
__________________ There's a phallic symbol infront of my car
Quote:
MG1: in fact, a new term needs to make its way into the American dictionary. Trump............ he's such a "Trump" = ultimate insult. Like, "yray, you're such a trump."
bcrdukes yray fucked bcrdukes up the nose
dapperfied yraisis
dapperfied yray so waisis
FastAnna you literally talk out your ass
FastAnna i really cant
FastAnna yray i cant stand you
It looks like apple daily news hasnt been doing to well financially. I wouldnt be surprised if the CCP started to influence their reporting by giving them money.
wat. apple daily has always and still is anti-china. The owner is as far left and anti-china as you can be when it comes to big time CEO's in HK.
That said, if you look at video clips, you can tell a percentage of the youths look like MK boys (youth gangsters), and they were there mainly to start shit with the police.
So you guys believe that the US funding groups of protesters and paying people off to stirr shit up ? This sounds like communist propaganda to me, apple daily or not.
Not to derail from thread too much, but as far fetched as it sounds, there's evidence across the board that CIA has been doing this. Mostly out in the middle east tho. I believe they funded ISIS(???)
So I wouldn't find it surprising if the CIA funded the violent protestors too.
Apply Daily News apparently found out that Group 1/2 is funded by the US (LOL), some kind of civic unrest fund. Which their site was conveniently hacked shortly finding this out. More specifically, the 1 million protestors were supposedly given a free lunch and $1000.00 HKD. Violent protestors were given helmets, masks, weapons, lunch and $1000 HKD.
Also note on the police, on the night of the civil unrest (Group 2 violent protestors), all HKPD were given an order to be on stand-by/go out there and disperse the area. This was according to my dad's co-worker's brother who is HKPD. If you're a cop, you're a cop - you follow orders.
Edit: I would look into Apple Daily News myself, but I can't read LMAO
I wouldn't be surprised to see a pro-Beijing newspaper reporting this fake news, but not Apple Daily Not even SCMP would report that garbage. They're owned by Beijing but have been pretty neutral so far. Just avoid their opinions columns.
If you were wondering, the English language independent newspaper (read: not pro-Beijing) is HK Free Press
What's funny is that pro-Beijing groups LITERALLY DO THIS in Hong Kong all the time. They usually go to senior centres and transport groups of old people to protest (or VOTE) with promises of money and other incentives. That's probably where they got the idea from
And as for this "chaotic group" of violent protesters.. I don't see it. Not this time. I see protesters on the front line trying to hold the line, but most of, if not all of, the violence is going in one direction.
I won't be surprised to see some agent provocateurs trying to stir shit up. They did that during the Umbrella Movement, reports of super violent protesters, and when others tried to get them to stop, they couldn't speak a word of Canto
From what I read, it all started with a man who killed his girlfriend in Taiwan, then he travelled back to Hong Kong and Taiwan could not extradite him back for prosecution. He was then charged in HK with a lesser crime, money laundering and will get like 29 months in jail.
Thanks to SkinnyPup, I've been exploring HKFP and found this:
Michael Tien has become the first pro-Beijing legislator to openly call for a delay of the extradition bill.
"Taiwan has said it does not want the transfer [of murder suspect Chan Tong-kai], so I don't understand why [Carrie Lam] is still so adamant," he told reporters at LegCo.
Yeah that Taiwan murder suspect is the one example she's been using to justify this garbage, and they don't even want to extradite him
As mentioned a few pages ago, there appears to be more and more people in Beijing dropping support of this attempt, and are ready to cut the whole thing off, along with Carrie Lam. Good riddance, but they'll just replace her with another puppet. HK people still can't elect their own leaders.
If you're so proud, then why aren't you back there supporting your supposedly wonderful country. It's a bit rich when someone who is proud of their despotic country but decides they rather bail and live in a free and democratic country.
never understood this reasoning
let's say you move to east asia as a canadian expat, heaven forbid if you ever had anything decent to say about our government where keyboard warriors would just ask you to move back since you love it so much
most in here aren't blinding supporting the ccp, they just choose to also examine the betterment despite all the atrocities of an autocratic regime
colonialism/conquest has many ugly sides, but places like Hong Kong and Taiwan wouldn't be where they are today if it wasn't for the British or Japanese
this weekend is calm before another march on monday
Isn't it Sunday? I actually had plans for dinner in Central that night but switched to TST because I thought there'd be over a million people marching in the streets
i think the protest/march should still happen to show solidarity and the fact that the government is technically still just putting it on hold and not removing this bill.
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Not even SCMP would report that garbage. They're owned by Beijing but have been pretty neutral so far. Just avoid their opinions columns.
