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Vancouver Off-Topic / Current EventsThe off-topic forum for Vancouver, funnies, non-auto centered discussions, WORK SAFE. While the rules are more relaxed here, there are still rules. Please refer to sticky thread in this forum.
This is fucking crazy!!! the wife and her family is all up in arms about this shit too
But i dont understand what the huge deal is.
1) as long as you dont do any crime, this new legislation wont apply to you
2) so what if your extradited to China, it was bound to happen in 50 years after 1997 anyways.
3) HK is CHINA, it has been since 1997. This one country 2 system bullshit is just a farce. i dont think anyone would believe the CCP would honor these agreements and this gradual erosion of HK's status is pointless. Either just take over the damn thing already, or let HK live in their bubble in perpetuity. Why 50 years!? what that going to do anyways.
4) Economically HK has been on a downwards path ever since 1997 as CCP is more focused on developing Shanghai, Beijing, Shenzhen, etc. This gives HK even less leverage as the economical motivators move more to the core mainland cities.
Either just take everything over already and roll in your god damn tanks, or leave it the fuck alone. Let HK play their democracy game, it doesnt hurt overall chinese GDP and it shows that China is flexible on a world stage.
This is the most ignorant post I've ever read on RS.
Both. When the commies first came in they got stripped and separated. Then in the cultural rev they "reeducated" my grandparents due to their neighbors denouncing them as rich elities. My gramps on my mom side was never the same after that. He pushed my mom to leave Shanghai afterwards so that's why we bounced in 1990 (which was hard as fuck cuz almost nobody was able to immigrate to western nations at that period).
I got no love for the ccp, hell I'm an only child because of their policies.
However it's still my home country. It's still my people and I'm damn proud that China is able to stand on a world footing with western nations. CCP sucks but I ain't going to deny they elevated our people as a whole.
Would you ever consider immigrating back to China? If not, what would have to change for you to make the move?
I'm asking out of genuine curiosity.
Since you say you are proud of China, but at the same time despise them for what they did to your family. As anyone would.
China becoming a super power definitely makes me proud to be Chinese, no doubt about it. But it's worrying how it's turning into a dystopian state. I can only hope that with economic freedoms, it relaxes it's grip on societal freedoms, as history has shown in other countries. As with other dominant countries through out history, some really bad shit had to go down for unity before things got better.
I get what you are saying, but I'd put it this way... people who I encounter the most saying that without CCP, China wouldn't be like this blah blah blah are 99% born and bred Chinese.
That is the biggest hypocrisy I've ever heard and really show how successful CCP is at brainwashing Chinese citizens.
In their opinion, they are questioning democracy while they have NEVER EVER had democracy. How the fuck can you remotely comment on something you have never experienced? They have NO idea about the power of democracy. It's about accountability (of those in power), freedom, choice, fairness... and so much more.
As of right now, the CCP can do whatever the fuck they want and never have repercussions about their decisions. Worse, with the recent constitution amendment, Xi can stay indefinitely in power. And you know what they say... with absolute power, comes absolute corruption.
You could say the same for those of us who have never tasted true communism? lol. Please, correct me if that's illogical.
You could say the same for those of us who have never tasted true communism? lol. Please, correct me if that's illogical.
I think what a lot of people don't realize is that Chinese citizens don't have access to any information that the CCP doesn't want them to have. They are VERY VERY strict. We of course all know that they censor websites and ban any mention of the Tienanmen Square Massacre, but it goes so far beyond that. Every little bit of information is blocked out. If some gets through, they twist and form it at their will.
That's why the typical every day Mainland China person, who is just a regular good person, thinks outrageous things like this. They think all the marches in Hong Kong on Handover day are in support of China. They think the petitions being signed are to show support for the bill. They think any dissent is due to direct influence from the West.
This is why I would never, ever argue with a mainland person. It's like arguing with a Christian about religion. There's no point. There's no logic.
That's why someone who grew up in an environment of open education and free information can have opinions on communism vs democracy, but someone in a closed system can't really.
It's also why I am extra disappointed when I see some people in here ignorantly supporting the communists, beyond just being pragmatic about it (the way threezero is). It's embarrassing to see a Canadian think that way. Badhobz should be ashamed of himself.
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HK should just break off and declare independence. Use that million+ population to good use. Get support from all the asian community around the world. If Kosovo can do it with less population, HK should be able do. If all else fails, at least have died trying.
Would you ever consider immigrating back to China? If not, what would have to change for you to make the move?
I'm asking out of genuine curiosity.
Since you say you are proud of China, but at the same time despise them for what they did to your family. As anyone would.
China becoming a super power definitely makes me proud to be Chinese, no doubt about it. But it's worrying how it's turning into a dystopian state. I can only hope that with economic freedoms, it relaxes it's grip on societal freedoms, as history has shown in other countries. As with other dominant countries through out history, some really bad shit had to go down for unity before things got better.
At this point i dont think id ever move back. Unless the country experiences some fundamental reforms in environmental protection, consumer protection, health and education, certain basic freedoms, etc that we have here in the west, it just doesnt appeal to me. I used to spend quite a bit of time back home in Shanghai due to work, i know what its like there and frankly it's disappointing. They have money sure but they are quite a few years behind in terms of social decency and conscience.
Im worried too that it'll all just blow up once the money stops flowing. Thats really the only way Xi and his ilk can stay in power. As long as the money flows and people are getting wealthy, they'll ignore all the other issues around them. As Deng said, it doesn't matter if the cat is black or white, as long as it catches mice, then it's a good cat.
They've internalized this philosophy to the extent where the average citizen has given up almost everything of social value to pursue materialism. Thats a huge CCP failing. Look at what they did to the historic sites around the 3 gorges dam. That's thousands of years of Chinese history carelessly flooded to provide electricity to fund more materialism. That's the real friggin crime. We are sacrificing our own cultural identity and history to pursue a western more lifestyle and that's ultimately disastrous in a nation of 1.5 billion.
3 Gorges is a drop in the bucket compared to the cultural revolution, in terms of wiping out Chinese history.
I really don't see China's economic growth stopping. Considering the influence they're projecting globally. The issue now is that they have a aging population and in 30 years, with their birth rate, they might have a labour shortage. I don't think there will ever be a complete disappearance of Chinese culture, we're too damned proud as a people to give it up, no matter how much western influence there is. I think both of us have been taught by our parents what it is to be a Chinese person.
I think what a lot of people don't realize is that Chinese citizens don't have access to any information that the CCP doesn't want them to have. They are VERY VERY strict. We of course all know that they censor websites and ban any mention of the Tienanmen Square Massacre, but it goes so far beyond that. Every little bit of information is blocked out. If some gets through, they twist and form it at their will.
That's why the typical every day Mainland China person, who is just a regular good person, thinks outrageous things like this. They think all the marches in Hong Kong on Handover day are in support of China. They think the petitions being signed are to show support for the bill. They think any dissent is due to direct influence from the West.
This is why I would never, ever argue with a mainland person. It's like arguing with a Christian about religion. There's no point. There's no logic.
That's why someone who grew up in an environment of open education and free information can have opinions on communism vs democracy, but someone in a closed system can't really.
It's also why I am extra disappointed when I see some people in here ignorantly supporting the communists, beyond just being pragmatic about it (the way threezero is). It's embarrassing to see a Canadian think that way. Badhobz should be ashamed of himself.
There are crazy ass Christians, and reasonable Christians. As there are ultra nationalist mainlanders. Though, the ultranationalists might be more common given their up bringing. I've never had to argue with one, so I don't know how pointless it is. I'll take your word for it, I'm sure you've encountered a few.
I've encountered first hand the great firewall. It's a fucken bitch. Though, in their growth phase, it might be necessary to prevent another civil war. Chinese aggression is a real thing, and I would have no doubt it would set them back the last 50 years if some nut job Chinese decided to oust Xi. Then we're in for a real spiral into depression.
TBH, I think a democratic China would pretty much be Taiwan. Taiwanese are one of the most hospitable and nice people I've met. Their kindness is legendary. They do have a lot of discord between parties and groups, but they're economically well off. Albeit, with help from the United States. It's weird, because US doesn't even recognize Taiwan as an independent country, but a part of China.
3 Gorges us a drop in the bucket compared to the cultural revolution, in terms of wiping out Chinese history.
I really don't see China's economic growth stopping. Considering the influence they're projecting globally. The issue now is that they have a aging population and in 30 years, with their birth rate, they might have a labour shortage. I don't think there will ever be a complete disappearance of Chinese culture, we're too damned proud as a people to give it up, no matter how much western influence there is. I think both of us have been taught by our parents what it is to be a Chinese person.
3 Gorges isn't even close to being a drop in the bucket. They literally wiped away most of their amazing history and culture to build this new one based on materialism and loyalty to the cultish Party.
The massive project [3 gorges] sets records for number of people displaced (more than 1.2 million), number of cities and towns flooded (13 cities, 140 towns, 1,350 villages), and length of reservoir (more than 600 kilometers).
vs
In a newly published biography of Mao Zedong by two UK authors, the estimated totality of death is discussed: “at least 3 million people died violent deaths and post-Mao leaders acknowledged that 100 million people, one-ninth of the entire population, suffered in one way or another”
In addition to the targeted book, artifact, and temple destruction of the revolution.
Just saying.
Though, I will agree that both are a significant sacrifice in the pursuit of modernization.
At this point i dont think id ever move back. Unless the country experiences some fundamental reforms in environmental protection, consumer protection, health and education, certain basic freedoms, etc that we have here in the west, it just doesnt appeal to me. I used to spend quite a bit of time back home in Shanghai due to work, i know what its like there and frankly it's disappointing. They have money sure but they are quite a few years behind in terms of social decency and conscience.
....
What western freedoms are being denied in China and how does western social decency and conscience trump Chinese ones?
Western Freedoms
Spoiler!
Just this week anyone can now report children getting molested... much civilized, advanced thinking, such progress.
Drag child simulates sex moves for ogling adults.
twitter.com/Gpalmer_32/status/1137434724140556289
Lastly Hong Kong is an Anglo Zionist pawn nation. Pro Hong Kong members are not much different from brainwashed Americans who come from a terrorist nation but think they live in the most righteous and free nation on earth.
What western freedoms are being denied in China and how does western social decency and conscience trump Chinese ones?
Western Freedoms
Spoiler!
Just this week anyone can now report children getting molested... much civilized, advanced thinking, such progress.
Drag child simulates sex moves for ogling adults.
twitter.com/Gpalmer_32/status/1137434724140556289
Lastly Hong Kong is an Anglo Zionist pawn nation. Pro Hong Kong members are not much different from brainwashed Americans who come from a terrorist nation but think they live in the most righteous and free nation on earth.
Hey!
'Murrica delivers freedom and liberty to countries in the form of tanks, drone strikes, and ninja missiles. now gtfo!
The fuck are you talking about, I was being nice, but I've had it with your bullshit.
HK had it way better than the rest of China for a very long time. When the CCP came into my grandparents home in Shanghai, they took out my family and stripped them of all their worldly possessions because they were deemed an elite. They sent half my family off to work in some god damn shithole and we've never heard from them again. What you are "sort of" going through now, millions of Chinese families have already gone through. Your experiences right now are a fucking cake walk compared to the shit people endured and are still enduring back in mainland China. My family is still there. They've thrived, they were able to adapt in the system and when i ask them about coming to Canada, they don't even want to.
You do know the 1.5 billion rest of the Chinese people dont give a fuck about your little problem right? the ones that could have all left, the ones who are there have already made peace or is able to work the system to ensure their families have survived and prospered. All these rich mainlanders didnt just come out of nowhere. The system in China isnt perfect but it raised the general standard of living for our entire ethnic group. Yeah there's bound to be issues along the way, but trust me, you guys never had it as bad as we did. 50 year is the agreed upon term. When that's up, legally they can do whatever the want. Technically, they can do whatever the fuck they want right now and there isnt a god damn thing you can do about it because you guys have no support.
You know whos the most elitist? FUCKING HK people. You guys always talking down about mainlanders, always trying to set yourself apart, always thinking you're different and somehow better than mainlanders. YOU ARE NOT DIFFERENT, NOT THE ANYMORE. WAKE THE FUCK UP, you're not SPECIAL. OUR SHITTY OPPRESSIVE GOVERNMENT DONT HAVE TO ACCOMMODATE YOUR ASS, HK is just a city in CHINA along with many other cities we have. You might not like the rest of the family, but we are your family. YOU ARE CHINESE, you live in CHINA and its time the chickens came home to the roost.
I'm sorry to hear that you're ok with laying down to die when you're faced with adversity. People in Hong Kong don't feel that way. They are fighting for their freedom. They're afraid China will have the power to send them away just for speaking up.
How would you feel if you woke up every morning worried about whether or not a Chinese official would come to your door to take you away because you wrote an article criticizing the government?
The cultural norms and values between the countries are too different. Do you understand why the people of Hong Kong don't want to associate themselves with Mainland China? It's instances like these.
Hong Kong and China doesn't speak the same language, use the same currency or drive on the same side of the road. I'll continue to acknowledge both as separate countries.
I'm sorry to hear that you're ok with laying down to die when you're faced with adversity. People in Hong Kong don't feel that way. They are fighting for their freedom. They're afraid China will have the power to send them away just for speaking up.
They have this power now to be honest. Dont you recall an incident a while ago where they found this bookstore in HK that was selling critical works of Xi and Deng? they sent that poor guy off somewhere and i dont think hes been allowed back since.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mickz
How would you feel if you woke up every morning worried about whether or not a Chinese official would come to your door to take you away because you wrote an article criticizing the government?
About the same as what the rest of the 1.5 billion individuals in our country feels every day. Is something like this worth dying for? especially when in 30 years it'll be taken away anyways. I don't want to see more of my chinese brothers and sisters dying for nothing. I don't want to see a civil war within our country over futile cries of freedom in an oppressive state. Change and freedom are admirable, but this isnt going to work. Read up on Tai Ping rebellion, and all the other protests against the Qing dynasty. You need that kind of countrywide suffering for the people to stand up against their government.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mickz
The cultural norms and values between the countries are too different. Do you understand why the people of Hong Kong don't want to associate themselves with Mainland China? It's instances like these.
Exactly why you guys have no popular support in mainland China. Exactly why these protests arent going to work. HK and its people always use mainlanders as some sort of a boogie man. You guys created this rift when you should have started healing it since 97. Instead, this constant emphasis of us vs them has sparked more hatred and divisions. This doesnt help your cause at all. Independence is impossible, China wont let you. You dont have enough military power or international support to force a two system in perpetuity like Taiwan. Ultimately you are fighting to keep this bullshit farce for another 30 years but then what? Is it worth the people dying on the street and civil havoc?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mickz
Hong Kong and China doesn't speak the same language, use the same currency or drive on the same side of the road. I'll continue to acknowledge both as separate countries.
Cantonese is Cantonese. You do speak the same damn language. If you cannot even concede that, then its just more HK elitism
Exactly why you guys have no popular support in mainland China. Exactly why these protests arent going to work. HK and its people always use mainlanders as some sort of a boogie man. You guys created this rift when you should have started healing it since 97. Instead, this constant emphasis of us vs them has sparked more hatred and divisions. This doesnt help your cause at all. Independence is impossible, China wont let you. You dont have enough military power or international support to force a two system in perpetuity like Taiwan. Ultimately you are fighting to keep this bullshit farce for another 30 years but then what? Is it worth the people dying on the street and civil havoc?
Cantonese is Cantonese. You do speak the same damn language. If you cannot even concede that, then its just more HK elitism
How would you know that? Most who do support Hong Kong in China either get hidden, jailed or immigrate (Just look at all the activist lawyers who have disappeared in the past few years). The popular opinion in China is based on CCP's control.
30 years is 30 years. But what China is doing is trying to fast track the change in 3 weeks. Once this bill is passed, most are certain they will try to fast track Article 23 too. The extradition bill will inevitably be passed, but not at this time.
Badhobz, I think your primary issue is that you are a pacifist/opportunist... and there is nothing inherently wrong with that unless you also believe everyone else should be the same or assist in the changing of others to your belief structure.
Many people would rather die than be oppressed. That is their right.
Lots of people could have laid down in France or Netherlands or Poland during WW1 and WW2 and just accepted their German oppressors were stronger than them and that it's better to live under the Nazi regime as long as they were alive. I'm sure lots of people did decide to learn German and salute a monster. But many others decided to put their lives on the line and many of them died for what they believed in... and the rest of the world eventually woke up and realized what was happening too and decided to intervene on the side of justice.
It might be too bad for HK because they legally do belong to China so the international community would have a hard time seeing it as an "invasion" per-say... and that is the ONLY leg Taiwan has to stand on. Taiwan wouldn't last a proverbial 5 minutes in a military fight with China, but you can damn well bet Europe, Australia and North America would be there immediately and China would have its hands extremely full at that point.
The problem with choosing to live in an oppressive regime with loose human rights fundamentals is that 99% of the time you might be "okay" as long as you don't stick out too much or colour outside the lines at all... keep a low profile and "don't do anything wrong"... but what do you do when the line for what's right/wrong shifts without any warning and you happen to be standing on the wrong side of the line that particular day? What if someone doesn't like you and frames you? Every day of your life in a place like China is essentially a reverse lottery where the "winner" gets scooped up by the government and disappeared. Every day there's some chance that could be you... that's the reality of living in a place where there is no Charter of Rights and Freedoms and things like due process and burden of proof simply do not exist.
You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!
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now gtfo!
But no, this has nothing to do with disagreeing. If you know anything about CiC's history, you know that.
