Activists trying to remove Chinese signs in Richmond

[beproud]

Omg, no comment
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[a00755836]

Originally Posted by $_$

I see a lot of people angry on this thread and throwing out comments like "If you didn't want to learn English, don't come to Canada. Go back to China."

No, I don't think you get it. If you don't want to live in a city immersed in Chinese culture, move away from Richmond. Canada is the second largest in the WORLD, and the only place that this is happening is predominantly Richmond and parts of Vancouver. If you don't like what's happening here, there's plenty of other places you can move to that fits "your culture". The world is changing. Our city is changing. Don't try to change the whole ecosystem because you cannot adapt. It's that simple! You know what's funny? I was asking my little brother the other day how many white people he had in his high school class. He said there was one, and everyone else was Asian. IIRC the stats for Richmond is between 60-80% foreigners and the rest are white. Even ICBC lets you take your drivers test in Chinese. All pamphlets and PSAs regarding important messages are in Chinese and Punjabi.

I see all these people screaming "This is CANADA. Your living in my country. Why don't you speak my language." I think you are wrong. We are living in OUR country, in our community, and we can speak whatever language we want to speak. The majority of the people of this region decided that this is how we want our city to function and operate. I believe that is our right and we are free to do so? That's what makes Richmond and Vancouver unique. I saw punjabi/english ROAD SIGNS on Fraser Road!! Even the government has learned to adapt - why can't you?

This is what I love about Canada. Canada is about choice and freedom, and the basis of our economy have always been built on immigration.

I don't go down No.5 Road or head into Surrey and expect everyone to understand me. If I was ever going to be so upset that they didn't speak English, then I just wouldn't go there unless I wanted something specific.

I don't know where you guys go that makes you feel like "you aren't welcome in your own city". I haven't ever see a white person go into a restaurant that was ever treated any differently. If anything, the Chinese waitresses try even harder with their broken English to try to help you get what you want. Don't know what something on the menu is? ASK. You aren't socially awkward are you? People like Ulic and second/third generation Canadians that don't have fluent Chinese but still thrive in this city. I love how multicultural Richmond. I WANT to go into a Japanese restaurant where the guy cooking my food speaks broken English - that means that he probably rolls a mean sushi and cooks a good skewer. Love the place you live, and learn to live in it. Don't try to change the macro-environment to cater to your own personal selfish needs.

completely agree. if you dont understand the chinese signs, just ask somebody who can on the street. simple. problem solved.

[stewie]

Originally Posted by a00755836

completely agree. if you dont understand the chinese signs, just ask somebody who can on the street. simple. problem solved.

And if I'm in my car driving? Pull over at a bus stop?
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[bigzz786786]

^not everyone walks everywhere, your not gonna pull over to the side of a road and say to a random person "hey what does that say? is it good?"

"if you don't want to live in a city immersed in chinese culture, move away from Richmond"

yeah that's real multiculturalism right there.

you shouldn't have to move anywhere, like people have said before, this isn't china, its canada. there should be some good visible English written on signs. it shouldn't be that those who have been here all there lives now have to learn a new language just to stay where they have been before. thats not what multiculturalism is. to truly live in a diverse society we need to accommodate everyone, not just one society.

If i moved to china (im brown btw but been here since 9months old) and so did thousands of others, we all move to beijing and basically turn a good section of it into an indian society and only indian language was written/spoken, and i said "if you dont like it, move somewhere else"; even though others have been there way before me. how would that make them feel? to be told to move elsewhere.


people making it sound so easy to move or say to learn a new language. its not that easy. i have taken the effort to learn certain words and understanding basic sentences, so why can't the owners/workers of the stores do the same?

when i went to beijing to visit a friend, people that i have met, or restaurants that i have been to, made every effort to attempt to communicate with me, honestly i was flattered that they tried, because over here its not the same.

[VRYALT3R3D]

I don't know about you...but if the business was smart they would at least have English in their sign somewhere. Y'know, so us non-chinese speaking people can possibly shop there....

If not, no big deal. But it seems silly not to have it imo.

[sulos]

at first I was going to say if they didn't want to learn English they shouldn't come to Canada in the first place but after thinking about it why should it bother me. Like everyone else said if they stores wanted my business they would put up some English signs and learn the language. I have some Asian friends so if I want to go to a Asian restaurant with no English in the signs then I just go with them, it is a good excuse to just hang out.

Having all Asian signs really doesn't matter as long as all the English ones don't disappear too.

[$_$]

Originally Posted by stewie

just from doing a drive by, i would probably never notice the words G&R ginsing trading. its such a smaller sign in comparison that the larger signs would attract my eyes first, and i'd completely drive past it.

same for seahorsemattress.com, unless i was looking for a mattress and was walking past that store and happened to see the website printed on the window...id never walk in or recognize it.

im like 90% of the other white people i know, if we see a sign that says "sushi", we'll drive past it, and recognize it and maybe later that week we'll be looking for somewhere to eat, and one of us suggests sushi...we can at least say "hey i saw a lil sushi place the other day, wanna try it out?". if its all in a different language, we'll just skip past it and will never become a customer unless one of us is physically brought there by someone whos been there before.

as for me being curious and just popping in on my own free will. sure, id love to. but i dont have enough time in my day to walk around and pop into each store to figure out whats in it and what they have to offer. hence why im all up for the signs have the majority in english. i bet 9at least 75% of teh restaurants in richmond are good enough to have me come back agian for more, but without that sign telling me what they are/have. i simply dont have the free time to go in and check out and for that reason, i simply stick to places i know.

Originally Posted by stewie

And if I'm in my car driving? Pull over at a bus stop?
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So, again, basically you want to tell people how to advertise, and you are upset that the stores don't cater to YOU and YOUR needs and therefore we should enact laws so that they begin to CATER TO YOU. The simple fact is they aren't marketing towards you. Just like a TV ad that advertises in "tech lingo" doesn't market to your grandma, those business don't find it worthwhile to put up a sign where it get's YOUR attention.

Are we still living in Canada? They are a private business - they should cater to whoever they want.

Originally Posted by MindBomber

You're attempting too broad an argument.

Defining the impact of colonialism in a single sentence is not possible.

In Northern Canada, communities functioning entirely on Inuktitut exist because they're geographically separated from Southern Canada. In Southern America, communities functioning entirely on French Creole and Mexican Spanish exist because that's the native language of the predominantly immigrant populations. The Inuit were "anally raped by westerners long ago" and forced into a sedentary existence, French Creole and Mexican Spanish groups had similar experiences.

Your argument is an outright failure, sorry.

I argue the reason is simple.

In Richmond, Cape Dorset, and the Southern Communties I cited, it's not necessary to learn English, so some people don't.

I want all long-term residents to possess basic English skills though.

It's not a matter of xenophobia though; quite honestly, I'm somewhat disheartened that an intelligent person would write-off the reasoning so simply.

I want long-term residents to involve themselves in Canadian culture and politics, the HST vote for example.

I want to be able to interact in Richmond as easily as Vancouver, Burnaby, Surrey, and so on, and not feel my ethnicity is a limitation.

I want Richmond to be an integrated community, but I can't imagine being a Police Officer or working at Richmond Hospital without speaking Cantonese.

These are very basic, but important issues.

I don't want Richmond's Chinese culture to become white-washed, I just don't want it segregated.

I want immigrants to be Chinese-Canadian, not Chinese people in Canada.

I don't think that's xenophobic or wrong.

To become a Canadian citizen you do need to learn basic English. That's one of the requirements. But that's as far as the imposition the government goes - because the government depends on immigration, and the government wants Chinese people and their money to come to Canada.

I can understand that people like you wouldn't want to be called xenophobic, and I would even agree because in your mind you guys genuinely don't feel that way. But I would relate to how you guys are feeling more like how old people don't like new technology - The world is changing around them, kids nowadays using twitter and facebook, streaming videos off youtube at 1080p and everything's moving too fast but you rather use internet explorer with a yahoo searchbar. Learning to adapt is off the table because you wouldn't want to learn a little bit of Chinese, even though it would probably benefit you greatly if you do. It would make your life better! Easier! It would allow you to interact with more of your peers! You would be able to communicate better with your neighbors! And ONLY because you live in Richmond. That's Canada man. That's what democracy and majority rules means. It means that when the majority of the people agree on some things, people should respect that. Not "how things use to be." You rather force them to put up English signs. You "LIVE IN CANADA". But ... You live in Richmond/Vancouver. The sub-culture here is just different.

The government should cater to the masses - not the other way around. Basic English is not going to get anyone to understand about the HST. If you want everyone to understand then you need Chinese, Punjabi, and whatever language the majority of your constituents speak. That's just a fact of the times. You say you want people to get involved in the culture - This IS the next step of (this area of) Canadian culture.

[pretsel]

All these comments about not having english on their signs is bad for business because they can't attract people who only know english is not valid because most of these signs do have english.
Secondly, it would be like telling the owner of The Keg, McDonalds etc that they are losing asian customers because they don't have Chinese on their signs.

Just take a walk around granville, would you know what The Roxy, Caprice was?

This is Robson below. What is a Geomania, Samsonite, DHL even suppose to be selling?

Originally Posted by stewie

same for seahorsemattress.com, unless i was looking for a mattress and was walking past that store and happened to see the website printed on the window...id never walk in or recognize it.

And below another angle of the Vancouver sun picture. It was obviously photographed in biased angle.

Also below is one of the sign board in Union Square which seem to be more descriptive than most unilingual signs.

[SkinnyPupp]

Originally Posted by RFlush

99% of the signs in HK have English?

Maybe you need to visit more of HK

I'm not in HK right now, but when I get back maybe I'll post some pictures just because of the stupid fucking comment you made.

For now you can just take a spin in google maps around HK (outside the white areas like central). TST, Mong Kok, Tsuen Wan, Kwun Tong, etc, etc, etc. Go to any mall, look at bus stop ads, taxi ads, billboards, etc. Or look at any random village in new territories....

Every store sign and ad will be in Chinese with English below it. About 1-5% of the time you'll see a building or a very traditional store with the name written traditionally right to left, with no English name prominently displayed.

[EmperorIS]

Using the argument that having Chinese only sign is bad for business is irrelevant

Activists are pissed not because they are concerned that the chinese can't do white buisness. They are pissed because they have to see chinese words on the sign and its annoying them, end of story.
they can't relate to it, so it scares them. so they try to use culture harmony as an excuse to get rid of it.

[MindBomber]

Originally Posted by $_$

To become a Canadian citizen you do need to learn basic English. That's one of the requirements. But that's as far as the imposition the government goes - because the government depends on immigration, and the government wants Chinese people and their money to come to Canada.

I can understand that people like you wouldn't want to be called xenophobic, and I would even agree because in your mind you guys genuinely don't feel that way. But I would relate to how you guys are feeling more like how old people don't like new technology - The world is changing around them, kids nowadays using twitter and facebook, streaming videos off youtube at 1080p and everything's moving too fast but you rather use internet explorer with a yahoo searchbar. Learning to adapt is off the table because you wouldn't want to learn a little bit of Chinese, even though it would probably benefit you greatly if you do. It would make your life better! Easier! And ONLY because you live in Richmond. But you rather not. Because it's annoying. You "LIVE IN CANADA". But ... You live in Richmond/Vancouver. The sub-culture here is just different.

The government should cater to the masses - not the other way around. Basic English is not going to get anyone to understand about the HST. If you want everyone to understand then you need Chinese, Punjabi, and whatever language the majority of your constituents speak. That's just a fact of the times. You say you want people to get involved in the culture - This IS the next step of (this area of) Canadian culture.

Canada does not depend on immigration; it hasn't for a half a century, in fact, recent policy planning has leaned towards greater restricting access. Canada supports immigration, and accepts immigrants on the basis of ability to contribute to development of the country - whether financially, professionally, or culturally. The differing means of contribution are all considered important, to the extent that Citizen and Immigration Canada sends agents to refugee camps to recruit immigrants with the ability make cultural contributions. The United Nations recognizes Citizen and Immigration Canada's model as exemplary, because it has a very progressive basis for selecting immigrants. I say this because, while your comment that "the [Canadian] government wants Chinese people and their money to come to Canada" is correct, it omits a swath of relevant information, and paints an incomplete picture.

The comparison you've made is deeply flawed. I do not live in Richmond, nor do Lomac or 4444. I would make no use of mandarin or cantonese outside of occasional visits to Richmond, which are infrequent do to my difficulty communicating at some businesses. My avoidance of Richmond is an example of the language barrier creating ethnic segregation.

I define a basic understanding of english as enough to understand public policy, communicate with a police officer, communicate with a doctor or nurse. My Oma and Opa (Dutch emigrants) only ever spoke basic english, to the extent that they often reverted to Dutch in english conversation, but were able to involve themselves in public policy discussions.

This isn't the next step in Canadian culture, this is Richmond culture.

You'd be so naive to think that Canada hasn't depended on immigration to help it boost it's economy. Just by sheer number of immigrants with business signs in Chinese should make that staggering obvious.

And I feel like all of these are non-issues especially with the recent policy planning - Second and Third generation Canadians will revert back to speaking mostly English anyways.

Canada does not depend on immigration to boost its economy. Chinese businesses contribute significantly to Richmond's GDP, but their contributions aren't significant enough to Canada's GDP to have a serious impact.

[EmperorIS]

Originally Posted by MindBomber

Canada does not depend on immigration; it hasn't for a half a century, in fact, recent policy planning has leaned towards greater restricting it. Canada supports immigration, and welcomes
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[MindBomber]

Originally Posted by EmperorIS

You're easily amused. I hit submit, accidentally, before the post was finished.

$_$ you're welcome to respond to my post when its complete, but responding to 1.5 of my sentences doesn't progress the discussion.

[$_$]

Originally Posted by MindBomber

Canada does not depend on immigration; it hasn't for a half a century, in fact, recent policy planning has leaned towards greater restricting it. Canada supports immigration, and welcomes
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You'd be so naive to think that Canada hasn't depended on immigration to help it boost it's economy. Just by sheer number of immigrants with business signs in Chinese should make that staggering obvious.

And I feel like all of these are non-issues especially with the recent policy planning - Second and Third generation Canadians will revert back to speaking mostly English anyways.

[THORISHERE]

Originally Posted by drunkrussian

No you clearly just don't understand my comment thanks for the first year marketing lesson but i was saying that there is an unrealized demand and lots of business would result from a simple translated sign
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When people want the best jap food they eat at an authentic jap owned place. Same with Chinese and Indian food. That's a niche. A niche is not appealing to a race but branding your food as the best in a specific type of cuisine. Untapped missed opportunity here by SHITTY business people. I dunno what an 'unwashed masses' are but yeah it all does indeed make it shitty

Are you an entrepreneur or investor? Have you ever managed a business or worked in the marketing department of a large corporation? I ask because you sound like someone who can only see the business world from the outside. My family has been in the services and real estate business for almost two decades. I invest full time and expect to be pulling in six figures this year. I say this not to be a weenie but to clarify where I'm coming from. And from where I come from, your assertions sounds a lot more like those of a typical worker bee than that of an entrepreneur.

Whether there is "unrealized demand" or not is not up to you to decide, only the business operator can determine that. Also, the "niche," target market is the more appropriate term, is also determined by the entrepreneur, not the masses. Not even super generic businesses like Wallmart or McDonalds tries to appeal to everyone. Do you think these companies try appeal to people who drive Bentleys? Of course not, that would be a complete waste of resources. This would be an example of what you refer to as "shitty business." Just because a business owner does not include you (or the unwashed masses) to be part of his target audience does not make him/her a "shitty business person."

Anyone who has started his own company or runs a reasonably profitable one can tell you that there are thousands of factors that affect one's business in any given moment. You seem to think that all businesses want to be as big as possible and to appeal to as a wide audience as possible which in reality is just not the case. Take Kyle Bass the hedge fund manager for example. To be considered a client you first must commit at least $5 million to his fund, and this is just one of the prerequisites of becoming a client. The website for his firm only has a phone number and contact email and little else. According to your logic, Mr. Bass and his team would qualify as "shitty business people" even though he is one of the most respected and successful hedge fund managers today. Every real-world entrepreneur (as opposed to e-entrepreneurs who have no real experience whatsoever) has his own target audience in mind and has his own philosophy of how best to run his business and the only person who can credibly know whether he is successful (or not) is the business owner himself. Ralph Waldo Emerson once wrote, "What you do speaks so loudly I cannot hear what you say." If you think so and so runs a "shitty business" and you can do better, then why not just do it and make a shitload of money? Otherwise, you've just proven to yourself that all you really know is how to talk out of your ass.

[stewie]

Originally Posted by $_$

So, again, basically you want to tell people how to advertise, and you are upset that the stores don't cater to YOU and YOUR needs and therefore we should enact laws so that they begin to CATER TO YOU. The simple fact is they aren't marketing towards you. Just like a TV ad that advertises in "tech lingo" doesn't market to your grandma, those business don't find it worthwhile to put up a sign where it get's YOUR attention.

Are we still living in Canada? They are a private business - they should cater to whoever they want.
.

Fail me for this, but, if I were to have a store where that ginsing store is, and I called it "Whites Only", specializing in white linens and towels from all over the world, and all my staff spoke French only.

Would you be telling me to change my name? How I advertise? How my employees deal with the non French speaking people? I'm sure a lot of people would find it discriminating to one race only, interpret it as racist, and raise shit over how it's only French in there. Sure the employees can speak fluent english, but they don't even make the effort into attempting to communicate with you.


Would you tell me then how I can and can't advertise?
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[asian_XL]

same shit happening in UK

[bigzz786786]

Originally Posted by $_$

So, again, basically you want to tell people how to advertise, and you are upset that the stores don't cater to YOU and YOUR needs and therefore we should enact laws so that they begin to CATER TO YOU. The simple fact is they aren't marketing towards you. Just like a TV ad that advertises in "tech lingo" doesn't market to your grandma, those business don't find it worthwhile to put up a sign where it get's YOUR attention.

Are we still living in Canada? They are a private business - they should cater to whoever they want.






To become a Canadian citizen you do need to learn basic English. That's one of the requirements. But that's as far as the imposition the government goes - because the government depends on immigration, and the government wants Chinese people and their money to come to Canada.

I can understand that people like you wouldn't want to be called xenophobic, and I would even agree because in your mind you guys genuinely don't feel that way. But I would relate to how you guys are feeling more like how old people don't like new technology - The world is changing around them, kids nowadays using twitter and facebook, streaming videos off youtube at 1080p and everything's moving too fast but you rather use internet explorer with a yahoo searchbar. Learning to adapt is off the table because you wouldn't want to learn a little bit of Chinese, even though it would probably benefit you greatly if you do. It would make your life better! Easier! It would allow you to interact with more of your peers! You would be able to communicate better with your neighbors! And ONLY because you live in Richmond. That's Canada man. That's what democracy and majority rules means. It means that when the majority of the people agree on some things, people should respect that. Not "how things use to be." You rather force them to put up English signs. You "LIVE IN CANADA". But ... You live in Richmond/Vancouver. The sub-culture here is just different.

The government should cater to the masses - not the other way around. Basic English is not going to get anyone to understand about the HST. If you want everyone to understand then you need Chinese, Punjabi, and whatever language the majority of your constituents speak. That's just a fact of the times. You say you want people to get involved in the culture - This IS the next step of (this area of) Canadian culture.

its about catering to EVERYONE, not to just YOU. sheesh. and no one is saying to take the chinese characters down, people just want to make it even for EVERYONE. Richmond/Vancouver should not be any different from the rest of canada.

take USA for example, majority of immigrants are of Spanish decent, but its english first and spanish second. there are still spanish tv stations, spanish papers, spanish radio. but when it comes to the GENERAL POPULATION AS A WHOLE its english first, spanish second.

how about immigrants learn to adapt and speak a little english, isn't that how its suppose to be? if you don't like it, then you can move.

[Mr.C]

Canada has two official Languages: English and French. Signs should be at least in one of those languages. Want to have a Chinese sign? Sure, go right ahead. Have an English caption below it.

Why is that so hard for people to understand? It's not fucking China, it's fucking Canada. Deal with it. It always drove me insane when I went to Richmond and saw all those signs in a language I can't understand. You shouldn't have to know Chinese to conduct business is Richmond. That is absurd, completely insane.

And cultural sensibility my ass. You go to the Brazilian supermarkets and restaurants in Toronto and other places, and everything is in Portuguese/English, at the very least, and sometimes in Portuguese/English/French.

I see this kind of thing as a total lack of respect for the country you chose to live in. I'm Brazilian, I don't expect people to know Portuguese. Why do people think it should be different for them?

[Yodamaster]

Originally Posted by Ulic Qel-Droma

no one cares about the effort your parents put in to learn english. they had to back then, there were almost no chinese. to survive you'd have to learn english.

English is Canada's primary language, and as such, you are required to know the basics of english before you can legally immigrate. French is not mandatory, but it's advised if you are moving to Quebec. It's not a matter of effort, it's a matter of logic and respect.

If the same went for China, any "white town" would have Chinese speaking white folk, it's not my problem if they do not require fluent Chinese speech in order to immigrate.

You don't move to a foreign country without learning it's primary language, ignoring such a basic step is stupid.


Notice how I didn't mention abandoning your native language.

[drunkrussian]

Originally Posted by THORISHERE

Are you an entrepreneur or investor? Have you ever managed a business or worked in the marketing department of a large corporation?

Yes. However this shouldn't matter as it is about logic

Originally Posted by THORISHERE

My family has been in the services and real estate business for almost two decades. I invest full time and expect to be pulling in six figures this year. I say this not to be a weenie but to clarify where I'm coming from.

um i don't care what you family does, and i would not say you sound like a weenie. I am not 5 years old. You come from a rich family who gave you some money to invest and you did not fail. Congrats.

Originally Posted by THORISHERE

Whether there is "unrealized demand" or not is not up to you to decide, only the business operator can determine that.

unrealized demand can be determined by doing market research and seeing whether there is an ability to increase one's profit. It is up to the market. it is up to the enterpreneur to act on it. It's not up to me to act on it? thanks for the obvious fact

Originally Posted by THORISHERE

Also, the "niche," target market is the more appropriate term, is also determined by the entrepreneur, not the masses. Not even super generic businesses like Wallmart or McDonalds tries to appeal to everyone. Do you think these companies try appeal to people who drive Bentleys? Of course not, that would be a complete waste of resources.

totaly agree, and if u read what i wrote you would see i never made any point like this.

Originally Posted by THORISHERE

You seem to think that all businesses want to be as big as possible and to appeal to as a wide audience as possible which in reality is just not the case. Take Kyle Bass the hedge fund manager for example. To be considered a client you first must commit at least $5 million to his fund, and this is just one of the prerequisites of becoming a client.

yes, cause a guy who makes a lot of money per client with a few clients is the same as a chinese guy in richmond selling ball waffles for a dollar each. Cause the guy in richmond just needs a few chinese customers and he's good right? Your shit logic makes my head hurt. You know what, fuck it, you ARE a weenie. weenie weenie weenie.

[El Bastardo]

Originally Posted by Mr.C

I see this kind of thing as a total lack of respect for the country you chose to live in. I'm Brazilian, I don't expect people to know Portuguese. Why do people think it should be different for them?

This is an interesting perspective because Brazil has a significant Asian population and they've made the choice to integrate and speak what you people think passes for Portuguese. They didn't have to but they certainly made the effort to.

I wonder why Canada is seen differently.

[Gululu]

Originally Posted by asian_XL

same shit happening in UK

Spoiler!

bus

[EmperorIS]

^^ aww man that's pretty bad on a public transit.

[Mr.C]

Originally Posted by El Bastardo

This is an interesting perspective because Brazil has a significant Asian population and they've made the choice to integrate and speak what you people think passes for Portuguese. They didn't have to but they certainly made the effort to.

I wonder why Canada is seen differently.

Honest opinion? You guys put up with too many 'cultural sensitivities'.

Edit: Also, it appears that people like the Brazilian cultural identity and want to be a part of it.