REVscene - Vancouver Automotive Forum

Hehe · 07-11-2020, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikemhg

It amazes me how Hehe parrots every single right-wing talking point when on the topic of race. Not surprising in how he posts videos from Fox News on this very topic.

I talk on race because this thread is "George Floyd protests in America" and the whole BLM movement has been on race.

It's BLM's point that the problem we are having is a "systematic racism".

I'm arguing it's NOT about racism. It's about putting them, black or any race, on the right track to be better...

Instead, you and many here want to emphasize the point that many BLMers are doing, if you aren't supporting the cause or agreeing to the idea, you have problems with racism.

I spent a good hour going through the thread to re-read, this is basically the summary:

Many blacks are poor: because of systematic racism from others (opportunities in life)
Many blacks have low education: because systematic racism from others (low budget, attention... etc)
Many blacks don't succeed in life comparing to their white peers: because of systematic racism from others (many points)

------------------

For fuck sake.... can we talk about what the fuck the black community as a whole have been doing? Is this a taboo? Are they some saints that can't be criticized or subject to objection from us normal people?

It's NEVER their own problem. Whatever problem they are having in the black community MUST be something others are doing... in which we conveniently use the word racism to categorize them all.

Interesting.... my best guess is that my black friends from Jamaica, Brazil, Nigeria... etc must be in a different shade of black as they don't seem to have the same problems with "others" both in America and Toronto.

Or maybe... just MAYBE... they are doing something different, something that's actually BETTER to get out of whatever shithole they were in.

Oh yes... my friends must be the few exceptions. right... but can't we take what they do, which seems to be working, and try to replicate on others?

They often put in 80+hrs week in work/gig, but they still manage to go to church, have kids, take good care of them and go kick some good old football (not the American) for some sweat with me on occasion.

For many of here.... really, I suggest you guys to really THINK, not just an ideology, but a complete diagnosis, inside and out, about what really is the problem and what is needed.

Do defunding the police, changing the police system would suddenly take all the black people out of poverty? No... hence, that's NOT the source of the problem... it does NOT change anything.

But if we change the black society, make having a healthy family structure a norm, make having a job a norm, make having to go to the college/university a norm... we'd take SO many of them out of poverty.

Please don't argue with me why black needs to follow white/yellow footsteps. This has NOTHING to do with colors. This is the footstep to success, at least the majority who took the same path achieved some form of middle class life. It just happened that many people of other colors (white, yellow, brown) are taking this path and less black people are on it.

StylinRed · 07-12-2020, 12:02 AM

sounds like a lot of bullshit hehe

Hehe · 07-12-2020, 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StylinRed

sounds like a lot of bullshit hehe

Just enlighten me about an actual way to lift the black community out of poverty. That’s all I’m discussing and all that matters.

All the protests asking for things like defunding the police, change the police system... etc etc are not going to make an impact to the black communities in question. In fact, if Seattle CHOP is any indication, a lot more violence would happen without the police in an already dangerous neighborhood.

These “bullshit” you said are the values that I grew up in. And what led me to have an ok life even in places where Asian discrimination was high.

I’m simply asking, a valid proposal from you left leaning guys that really going to make a positive difference in these communities in the long term with a lasting effect.

If you want to add those lefties ideologies bullshit like many are doing here. Go ahead. I’m just asking to discuss actual policies that we should push as a society that’s going to make a difference in there. Not some fantasy land crap that we can never achieve.

westopher · 07-12-2020, 05:27 AM

You want blacks to get a better education, but in your post earlier you said that if you can’t afford elite schools you shouldn’t get in because “you wouldn’t be able to afford the extra curricular activities and tutoring so they wouldn’t do well anyways”
You want people to do better, but you don’t seem to think they need the opportunities to get out of poverty.
What the fuck do you want to do, just stand on a soapbox with a bullhorn saying “yo guys, go do better!!” And some people are going to be like “oh fuck this guys right let’s go do better”

Your posts just come across as a thinly veiled ego trip about how successful you are and how all of your friends are successful. It’s all because of hard work and why can’t everyone just work as hard as you right? Racism didn’t stop you so it doesn’t stop anybody. You need to understand that sometimes your narrow experience doesn’t equal the same experience as 7 billion other people on this planet. Circumstances are different for EVERY SINGLE PERSON

Xu.Vi · 07-12-2020, 07:12 AM

Read the video description. Many resources for you to explore. Children are going to have a hard time feeling validated growing up if their parent/caregiver(s) continue to imply ideology such as HeHe's and it doesn't align with the reality they see. Teachers in private schools are trained the exact same (UBC, SFU,...only difference is private schools are legally obligated to pay the same wage as public school teachers because they were underpaid for the longest time. Oh, and they've got to deal with toxic entitled parents) and are starting to become educated formally or informally through workshops on topics such as systemic racism, LGBTQ+, self-development, and critical thinking. Teaching programs are giving a much bigger emphasis on those topics so we can finally educate children properly because there's a clear disconnect between the rich and the poor.

welfare · 07-12-2020, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by westopher

Uh yeah. That was the point.
The other point is that a wealthy kid growing up in a good neighbourhood in a single family household who’s parent has time for them is far less likely to have problems growing up.
Single income household is likely to cause poverty
Poverty and lack of opportunitiy is likely to cause behavioural problems than dad not being around.

and what government program can replace the equally vital roles that BOTH a man and woman play in their child's development?
Keep in mind that's not just my opinion, but based on decades upon decades of psychological literature.

westopher · 07-12-2020, 08:50 AM

You aren’t really grasping it, and I’m sure you’ll continue to choose not to, but for the sake of discussion here I’ll spell it out. I’m not talking about REPLACING A PARENT, I’m talking about creating an environment for the child of a single parent to be successful
Financial support for single parents will provide more time available for their children
Social programs like “big brothers and sisters” as well as others will provide positive role models for children in single family households.
Charitable programs that allow underprivileged children opportunity to participate in sports and other hobbies will create goals and experience working with others for success and growth.
Subsidized child care will help take financial stress off of parents that are forced to work part time, or not at all to take care of their children.
Access to sexual health programs, education and contraception for young people will cause less unwanted pregnancies.
You seem like the kind of person that doesn’t understand reducing the frequency of a negative situation is still helpful. You aren’t stopping divorce or unfit parents, black, white, Asian etc. But you can help people in these situations be less prone to negative life experience.

Xu.Vi · 07-12-2020, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by westopher

You aren’t really grasping it, and I’m sure you’ll continue to choose not to, but for the sake of discussion here I’ll spell it out. I’m not talking about REPLACING A PARENT, I’m talking about creating an environment for the child of a single parent to be successful
Financial support for single parents will provide more time available for their children
Social programs like “big brothers and sisters” as well as others will provide positive role models for children in single family households.
Charitable programs that allow underprivileged children opportunity to participate in sports and other hobbies will create goals and experience working with others for success and growth.
Subsidized child care will help take financial stress off of parents that are forced to work part time, or not at all to take care of their children.
Access to sexual health programs, education and contraception for young people will cause less unwanted pregnancies.
You seem like the kind of person that doesn’t understand reducing the frequency of a negative situation is still helpful. You aren’t stopping divorce or unfit parents, black, white, Asian etc. But you can help people in these situations be less prone to negative life experience.

They don't like the idea that they get 'free' handouts

westopher · 07-12-2020, 09:23 AM

The old “it’s not my problem” approach, but then spend the rest of your life complaining about the same people that weren’t given opportunities to better themselves for being involved in crime and addictions.
Why help someone if you don’t get to act like your better than them anymore, right?

Xu.Vi · 07-12-2020, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by westopher

The old “it’s not my problem” approach, but then spend the rest of your life complaining about the same people that weren’t given opportunities to better themselves for being involved in crime and addictions.
Why help someone if you don’t get to act like your better than them anymore, right?

Well put. One colleague works specifically with middle-aged caucasian men between the ages of 50+ that are in corporate management who are mandated to seek counselling because they cannot grasp the ideas such as systemic racism, gender, sexual harassment, and general respect towards their employees. I didn't even know there was a market for this

Only when their income is on the line are they willing to learn and become educated on such topics and adapt.

320icar · 07-12-2020, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by westopher

The old “it’s not my problem” approach, but then spend the rest of your life complaining about the same people that weren’t given opportunities to better themselves for being involved in crime and addictions.
Why help someone if you don’t get to act like your better than them anymore, right?

Makes me think of the insane stats of black men incarcerated for petty weed crimes that most white men wouldn’t be jailed for. Instead of paying for social programs and investing in people’s futures, Americans are more than happy to spend trillions on the prison system ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

westopher · 07-12-2020, 10:49 AM

Don’t forget despite taxes paying for prisons, private companies are allowed to profit off of it. It’s truly a fucking joke.
Remember, brock turner doesn’t get a prison sentence for rape because of his “potential” while thousands of black men are spending life in prison for petty theft and drug offences due to the three strikes rule. But hey, if they just worked harder and had their parents buy them into an Ivy League school they could have replaced those petty crimes with sexual violence and really made something of themselves!
Cute how they base a legal system off of a boring game too.

birddog3k · 07-12-2020, 01:38 PM

This idea that social programs are the solution for anything should be put to bed by now. Throwing more money at problems does NOT solve anything and usually makes things worse, especially if government is involved. This is the best case of the idea that "the road to hell is paved with good intentions". I understand it comes from a place of wanting to help but it is literally the main cause of all these issues we're facing.

I know a lot of you like to dismiss people based on race but here's an interview with the GREAT Thomas Sowell. He's a VERY well educated black man who started off as a Marxist and due to the overwhelming evidence stopped being one. This man knows how to think clearly. I implore all of you to read his book "Basic Economics". If you had to read one book on Economics, this would be one of the best options.

To expand on the idea that more welfare = bad, consider public education. You might look at a city like Detroit and say that the poor test scores are a result of under-funding ("due to the lack of property taxes" just laughable) but out of the top 100 largest school districts, they spend more per student than ALL BUT 8 other school districts but have terrible test scores. And that's just Detroit. It's the same for Baltimore and all these other (Democratic) led cities.

Source: https://www.michigancapitolconfident...rban-districts

westopher · 07-12-2020, 01:43 PM

It’s not the basic principle of throwing money at something. Hey no dad? Here’s 50k kid. Do good stuff.
It’s about having well thought out programs that put money to good use. It doesn’t matter if you spend a shitload of money on schools and have a useless curriculum. I think we can both agree that the development of a new curriculum isn’t free though, right? Spending money is a consequence of the solutions, not the solution itself.

280ZX · 07-12-2020, 02:56 PM

What I like to see is more Poc to post in this thread (like mikemhg) as he is the one who experiences first hand what it is to like to live every day as a Poc. It's ironic that the white people caused alot of this
(ie. Indigenous children taken away from families and boarding schools) and we're supposed to listen to them for solutions (4,5 posters in this thread). It would be nice to read more from Indigenous or black posters on this post for solution and discussions from them, (instead of a mouth piece who's never experienced any oppression in their lives and pretends to understand.) Also, it would give some members a better understanding on why BLM.

CivicBlues · 07-12-2020, 04:11 PM

Fuck I commend all here that had the time to read all of hehe's word salad. I mean gawd, for someone espousing "pull yourself up from your bootstraps" ideology he sure devotes a metric tonne of time denigrating those that he deems unworthy of his time.

punkwax · 07-12-2020, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CivicBlues

Fuck I commend all here that had the time to read all of hehe's word salad.

Hehe · 07-12-2020, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by westopher

You want blacks to get a better education, but in your post earlier you said that if you can’t afford elite schools you shouldn’t get in because “you wouldn’t be able to afford the extra curricular activities and tutoring so they wouldn’t do well anyways”
You want people to do better, but you don’t seem to think they need the opportunities to get out of poverty.
What the fuck do you want to do, just stand on a soapbox with a bullhorn saying “yo guys, go do better!!” And some people are going to be like “oh fuck this guys right let’s go do better”

Your posts just come across as a thinly veiled ego trip about how successful you are and how all of your friends are successful. It’s all because of hard work and why can’t everyone just work as hard as you right? Racism didn’t stop you so it doesn’t stop anybody. You need to understand that sometimes your narrow experience doesn’t equal the same experience as 7 billion other people on this planet. Circumstances are different for EVERY SINGLE PERSON

I'm not sure if you guys ran out of words for refutal or you simply didn't read my post at all as none of the posts seems to be answering my question:

What can we do to make a fundamental change to the situation (poverty, education, work... etc) that would have a lasting effect in the community?

Putting underprivileged kids into elite schools for the sake of "equal opportunity" doesn't work. When the income discrepancy is too much, there's simply no way for them to be considered "equal". Yes, they might get the same attention at school from the teachers, but what about their after school stuff where privilege kids go to sport camps training with Olympians, or get help on their curricular stuff from private tutors. Yes, you might go with a scholarship program that we, the taxpayers, pay for EVERYTHING. But how many kids can benefit from this? 1/100000? How about the remaining 99999? If you don't sponsor all that "extras", you are not giving the kids the opportunity of their life, but the trauma of their life.

Same thing of asking cutting edge companies like Google/Apple. If they were up for the job, Google most likely had already gotten them in. If they aren't up to the job and you put him there... it's just a matter of time the person just gives up because their peers just work some much better.

Thus, I proposed we target from a more basic perspective. We start with family, educational requirements and incentivize on those actions. For example, kids get x amount of scholarship for going to highschool, x+y amount for finishing with z GPA, and finally x+y+a for going to university.

I'm not suggesting my idea is perfect, but it's time to get down to some actual actions that would benefit the community as a whole rather than some fairyland shit like making easy for black kids to get jobs at x place and go study at y school. Because HOW MANY can you take? There are millions of black kids out there that falls into this category. How many handouts can you do? Handouts are what gotten black community in this shithole in the first place, let's stop that and shift those resources into actions.

It's easy to talk about ideologies, but they don't do jackshit to the black community. Tell me exactly how defunding the police, and changing the policing structure make a difference in the life of so many black dudes, who are struggling with his life, study and health? So that if they break the law, they wouldn't be caught? Is that really what you want a kid... any kid, black or otherwise to grow up to be? If anything, as CHOP/CHAZ has demonstrated, a cop-less state made the place a shithole, not some utopian paradise for these black dudes to go in.

westopher · 07-12-2020, 06:10 PM

I've already answered all of the questions you are posing in this rebuttal. It's rich for you to accuse anyone of not reading in this thread.
No one anywhere in here has suggested apple/google just "go hire some black kids and hope for the best"
Your suggestion of scholarships and incentives is a great suggestion and aligns with the multiple other suggestions I have posted.
Changing the police structure has been pointed out on every page in this thread, and you literally point it out in your own argument against it. They struggle with their lives (social), studies (education) and health (medical coverage). We aren't talking about eliminating the police, we are talking about redirecting the massive overfunding of the police to PREVENT CRIME by providing opportunity for success through EDUCATION, SOCIAL, AND HEALTH FOCUSED PROGRAMS.
This isn't "fairyland shit" where people are saying give black people private school entrance and jobs, its about providing the aforementioned programs to EVERYBODY, including a marginalized black community.

Hehe · 07-12-2020, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by westopher

I've already answered all of the questions you are posing in this rebuttal. It's rich for you to accuse anyone of not reading in this thread.
No one anywhere in here has suggested apple/google just "go hire some black kids and hope for the best"
Your suggestion of scholarships and incentives is a great suggestion and aligns with the multiple other suggestions I have posted.
Changing the police structure has been pointed out on every page in this thread, and you literally point it out in your own argument against it. They struggle with their lives (social), studies (education) and health (medical coverage). We aren't talking about eliminating the police, we are talking about redirecting the massive overfunding of the police to PREVENT CRIME by providing opportunity for success through EDUCATION, SOCIAL, AND HEALTH FOCUSED PROGRAMS.
This isn't "fairyland shit" where people are saying give black people private school entrance and jobs, its about providing the aforementioned programs to EVERYBODY, including a marginalized black community.

And I already told you where the problem are with those ideas. You are romanticizing the idea of "we are all equal".

But the society is NOT equal and it's never meant to be.

If everyone is equal, then there should be no competition of any kind. Because in order for those elite people (be it athlete, academic, businessmen... etc) to be ELITE takes effort, determination and a lot of $$$.

What you guys are suggesting is basically communism or some kind of extreme socialism. It has proven time after time that it DOESN'T WORK. Because once you try to bring the line closer to those people who are under the line, the only way to make it work is to suppress those who are over the line. And ultimately, no one would care about the line anymore as it makes no sense to be better. Instead, we should focus on how to bring them UP to the line.

The ideology of "we are all equal" is very romantic. I give you that. But it would come a day that you realize that it simply doesn't work, and neither would we want it to work.

Because it lacks substance... it's all great inspiring talk after great inspiring talk... but you can talk about the greatest idea in the whole wide world... without a way to execute it effectively... it's just that... a talk.

Communism is arguably the greatest societal structure EVER proposed. It's really utopian... but there's no way to put it into our society and have the same outcome.

westopher · 07-12-2020, 07:20 PM

You sure use a lot of words to not say much.

Bouncing Bettys · 07-12-2020, 07:23 PM

The co-founder of Vancouver's BLM sure has some interesting takes on jobs, since we are on the subject:

320icar · 07-12-2020, 07:39 PM

^^ So.... She says you don’t need to be good at your job, but also not be punished for not being any good?

welfare · 07-12-2020, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by birddog3k

This idea that social programs are the solution for anything should be put to bed by now. Throwing more money at problems does NOT solve anything and usually makes things worse, especially if government is involved. This is the best case of the idea that "the road to hell is paved with good intentions". I understand it comes from a place of wanting to help but it is literally the main cause of all these issues we're facing.

I know a lot of you like to dismiss people based on race but here's an interview with the GREAT Thomas Sowell. He's a VERY well educated black man who started off as a Marxist and due to the overwhelming evidence stopped being one. This man knows how to think clearly. I implore all of you to read his book "Basic Economics". If you had to read one book on Economics, this would be one of the best options.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mS5WYp5xmvI

To expand on the idea that more welfare = bad, consider public education. You might look at a city like Detroit and say that the poor test scores are a result of under-funding ("due to the lack of property taxes" just laughable) but out of the top 100 largest school districts, they spend more per student than ALL BUT 8 other school districts but have terrible test scores. And that's just Detroit. It's the same for Baltimore and all these other (Democratic) led cities.

Source: https://www.michigancapitolconfident...rban-districts

You aren't really grasping it. These crime ridden, crumbling cities that have all been run by democrats for decades just need.... More Democrat policies and programs

What was Albert Einstein's definition of insanity again?